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Was Thracian language very close to Slavic?

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Forum Name: Alternative History
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Topic: Was Thracian language very close to Slavic?
Posted By: Ioan-Assen II
Subject: Was Thracian language very close to Slavic?
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 15:58
If the answer to this question is yes that could redefine the Thracian input into the Bulgarian nation and language. Why am I even raising this question?
1. According to most linguistics there Thracian was very similar to Baltic, some classify it as south Baltic...
2. Baltic is very close to Slavic...
3. So that means that Thracian must have been quite close to Slavic...
4. Bessi (Thracian tribe) in 570 spoke their language:

In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/570 - 570 , Antonius Placentius said that in the valleys of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Sinai - Mount Sinai there was a monastery in which the monks spoke http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language - Greek , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin - Latin , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_language - Syriac , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_language - Egyptian and Bessian.

The origin of the monasteries is explained in a mediaeval http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagiography - hagiography written by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_Metaphrastes - Simeon Metaphrastes , in Vita Sancti Theodosii Coenobiarchae in which he wrote that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_of_Amasea - Saint Theodorius founded on the shore of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea - Dead Sea a monastery with four churches, in each being spoken a different language, among which Bessan was found. The place where the monasteries were founded was called "Cutila", which may be a Thracian name.

It has been argued that the name "Bessam" used in the Sinai region could be a corrupt version or alternate name for "Persian", "Slavic", "Iberian" or "Armenian", but there is nothing to indicate that.

Conclusion of the abovementioned facts: Thracians and Slavs spoke related language, close to each other (if Thracian was really close to Baltic). Thracians spoke the language when Slavs were entering the Bolkans. Could this mean that the Slavic in Bulgarian may also be Thracian?
Just a suggestion. I dont wanna start war. I just wanna provoke discussion. I dont say its true, just hipothesis.
 



Replies:
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 16:12
I didn't think the Thracians were any closer (linguistically) to the Balts than they were to the Albanians, the Slavs, Armenians and Indo-Iraniams who all spoke languages from the satem branch of Indo-European.
 
So Thracian could have been closer to Slavic than it was to Baltic.


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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 16:33

Not really. We know very few things about Thracian language. However, there are some striking similarities between known Thracian names and Baltic languages.

The name of God Zamolxis looks exactly like a Lithuanian name the ending "is" "as" is very common for Baltic languages. When I first heard that name I was convinced that the subject was about Lithuania Smile. The same is also true about other known Thracian names and toponims.
 
Also there are some interesting parallels in Romanian and Baltic culture for example: only thse cultures have so called doina/daina which is a specific form of poetry and music style.
 
This interesting connection can be explained only by the assumption that ancient Baltic/Thracian connection existed. Taking into account the fact that Baltic tribes in antiquity lived much more to the South than they are now, this is totally possible.


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Posted By: Ioan-Assen II
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 21:10
Exactly...
Most linguists think the connection is very obvious...


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 12:09
I was really just pointing out that Thracian and Slavic were fairly closely related anyway.

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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 15:58

Is "Christidis" a Baltic name? Or maybe "Clovis"? "-is", "-as" are actually common nominative terminations for ancient names (Greek and non-Greek). And the correct form of the name is undoubtely Zalmoxis, as in Zalmodegikos or even "zalmos" - Porphyrios adds that the name "Zamolxis" (sic!) is related to the Thracian word for "(bear) fur", "zalmos". Zamolxis is a metathetic form transmitted by some Greek authors.

Maybe Thracian was related to Baltic or Slavic languages. But not too close, otherwise the current Baltic or Slavic speakers would have no difficulties in decyphering the Thracian texts, yet no one provided so far an un-equivocal, non-controversial reading for inscriptions like the ones found at Ezerovo or Kjolmen:
http://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/thrac_6.html - http://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/thrac_6.html
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 16:40
Basically, i have been thinking about this for a long time. Thracian has some words that remind of slavic but the grammar for example is closer to Greek and Phrygian. The possesive forms are very close.

Also, from the last inscriptions in Chilbudios link "Da, dale me" it makes kinda sence as following:

Thracian          Archaic Greek     English
Δα (Dha)          Γa (or Γη)             Land/Earth
Με (Mae)          Εμε                       Me
ΗΥΖΙΗ (eys)      Εΐ (ey)                  You

Note that the early name of Demetra was Gameter, then turned to Dameter and after Demeter.

Also, there are plenty of northern Thracian words (e.g Dacian) that seem to have a connection to Albanian and could make that language closer to it than Illyrian.

However, a question i made in the past was "What do we define as Thracian?". The Paionians for example are suspected to have Anatolian origin, so whatever they produced that we see as Thracian, could be a fusion of a palaiobalkanic language and anatolian.

My theory is that Thracian, Phrygian, Luwian, Armenian, Greek, Pisidian, Carian etc had a common language background as a group but when the first indoeuropean migration started they separated because of different routes. For example, the people who came to be the Thracians moved north and then south to the balkans, while Luwians moved south west. The northern movement of the Thracians could have resulted a contact with baltic tribes that left their imprints on the language.

So, by my opinion it is a matter of routing...


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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 16:43
Originally posted by Ioan-Assen II

It has been argued that the name "Bessam" used in the Sinai region could be a corrupt version or alternate name for "Persian", "Slavic", "Iberian" or "Armenian", but there is nothing to indicate that.



I think Bessi is a quite common Albanian name.


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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 17:01
I have a list of Thracian names and surnames displayed in a stele i read recently. They don't make sence in etymology (some may look greek but they are not) but others here might see something:

(i write name + surname where available)

- Kotys Sypra
- Kardous Ketrizios
- Trales Beithious
- Toitas Sadalu
- Kolkotas Paramonu
- Tarousinas Paramonu
- Neikias Seutu (pronounced Sephtu)
- Kotys Kareventhu (this is a mixed person...Kareventhys was a Carian name while Kotys is Thracian)
- Beithys Pamphilou
- Tarousinas
- Rymitalkis
- Ortas

 

Btw, Chibuldios and whoever else may know. Is the -u ending (which does not appear in other latin languages) in surnames in Romanian, a leftover from Dacian? I'm thinking about the surnames above like Sadalu (accent on da) and Paramonu (accent on mo)...

On the other end some could make a connection between a name like Tarousinas and the lithuanian name Sarunas.


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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 19:02

It is said, I think it was Tacitus, that the Aestii spoke a language close to the Britanni or better that sounds like that of the Britanni. The Aestii are probably Baltic, Balts are close to Slavs, so Britains are Slavs.ClapOuch

All these languages, Thracian, Dacian, Slavic, Baltic are indo-european languages. That's why they are close related. But Thracians are Thracians, they are no Dacians, neither Greek nor Slavs or Balts. To make Thracian a Slavic language or Slavic a Thracian language is the attempt to nationalize history, nothing more.



Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 19:44
Flipper, is that stelle published somewhere?
 
Anyway, from your list:
Kotys - definitely Thracian (there were several kings bearing this name)
Ketrizios looks Thracian - as in Ketriporis, Thracian king
Trales idem - as in Mucatralis, Eptatralis, names from other Thracian inscriptions
Rymitalkis idem - as in Roemetalces, Thracian king
Sadalu idem - as in Sadalas, Thracian king
 
Are you sure the names are in nominativ? The u termination makes me think of a gentive for a name ending in -os/-es/-as (e.g. Seut(o)u could be the gentive for Seutes, and that is similar to Seuthes, there were some Thracian kings with this name)
 
edit: I think I solved the mystery. It is not name + surname, but name + patronym, like X of Y. That's why where are two names one is in nominative (the name of the person), the other in genitive (the patronym). For instance, Pamphilou is certainly the genitive of a Pamphilos, thus is to be translated "of Pamphilos".
 
The u in Romanian is a leftover of Latin -us/-um (and exists also in other Romance languages but usually a different vowel. e.g. Ursu, Petru, Iuliu - Romanian vs Orso, Pietro, Giulio - Italian). In the history of the language there was a moment when the -u termination was casual (today many nouns lost it), and I assume this is how many names borrowed from neighbouring languages (like Dumitru from Demetrios, Petru from Petros) got it, too.
 


Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 23:07
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Flipper, is that stelle published somewhere?
 
Anyway, from your list:
Kotys - definitely Thracian (there were several kings bearing this name)
Ketrizios looks Thracian - as in Ketriporis, Thracian king
Trales idem - as in Mucatralis, Eptatralis, names from other Thracian inscriptions
Rymitalkis idem - as in Roemetalces, Thracian king
Sadalu idem - as in Sadalas, Thracian king
 
Are you sure the names are in nominativ? The u termination makes me think of a gentive for a name ending in -os/-es/-as (e.g. Seut(o)u could be the gentive for Seutes, and that is similar to Seuthes, there were some Thracian kings with this name)
 
edit: I think I solved the mystery. It is not name + surname, but name + patronym, like X of Y. That's why where are two names one is in nominative (the name of the person), the other in genitive (the patronym). For instance, Pamphilou is certainly the genitive of a Pamphilos, thus is to be translated "of Pamphilos".
 
The u in Romanian is a leftover of Latin -us/-um (and exists also in other Romance languages but usually a different vowel. e.g. Ursu, Petru, Iuliu - Romanian vs Orso, Pietro, Giulio - Italian). In the history of the language there was a moment when the -u termination was casual (today many nouns lost it), and I assume this is how many names borrowed from neighbouring languages (like Dumitru from Demetrios, Petru from Petros) got it, too.
 


Chibuldios, you're right. It is nominative and it is a patronym indeed. I have the steele on a book which has a reference. I will locate it on the cornell university archives and post it. I think it belongs to a collection called "Meletimata", but i have to verify.  Basically, the stele is from a Greek city that hosted "Metoikoi" (foreign inhabitants), as they record, from Thrace and that's why we know the names are Thracian. However, the patronyms with the -ou is the earliest type of surnames in Greece together with -idis and are the default still today. It doesn't necessarly mean the father of the person was called so, it could be an ancestor. The stele honours Greeks and some metoikoi, so the surnames attributed are in Greek fashion even if they don't make sense in etymology. However, -os/-es/-as that you mentioned is common in both Thracian, Greek, Pisidian and Phrygian.

The Kareventhou form however is probably a Thracian form...In Greek male -nth names in nominative for would be -nthous not -nthou without -s in the end. E.g Kleanthis -> Kleanthous. If Kareventhis was a female name which is not, it would be correct to spell without an -s e.g Corinthos --> Corinthou. Those are very small details that can make a distinction between the origins of a name/grammar etc.

Some of those people are probably of mixed descend and therefore you may have a pure Thracian name with a Greek patronym-surname or a Greek name with a Thracian patronym. Very rare phenomenon until recently. In my example i had a person of Thracoanatolian (probably Carian) descend.

Btw, I'm aware of the King names you mention. Most of the people in the stele belong to the Aristocracy, so such names are expected. Another name that sounds strange is Dhiza. It appears as a name and patronym...Any connection to Thrace?


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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 23:09
Originally posted by beorna

All these languages, Thracian, Dacian, Slavic, Baltic are indo-european languages.



Simple as that...Tongue
Moreover Thracian is a very primitive IE language and that makes it possible to relate to many other modern languages.

As for Dacian, it is probably a northern Thracian dialect, not a separate language.


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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 00:03
Does anybody have a list of the Thracian words with established meaings?
 
Is that true that earth is zamol in Thracian?  Slavic is zemlia. Seems quite close.


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Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 01:13
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Does anybody have a list of the Thracian words with established meaings?
 
Is that true that earth is zamol in Thracian?  Slavic is zemlia. Seems quite close.


Thracian            English

asa                    coltsfoot

bolinthos           wild Bull

brai                      town; settlement

briloun                barber

briza                      rye

brynchos            guitar

deiza                  fortified settlement

genton               meat

germe                warm

rhomphaia          spear, later meaning sword

skarke               coin

skalme               knife, sword

zelmis               hide, skin

zelas                  wine

zetraia                a pot

zibythides              "the noble Thracian men and women"


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What is the officer problem?


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 02:37
Thank you Darius.
 
Although some of these words seem close to Slavic, unfortunately most of them don't.
 
What is the source of this BTW?


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 06:21
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Does anybody have a list of the Thracian words with established meaings?
 
Is that true that earth is zamol in Thracian?  Slavic is zemlia. Seems quite close.


I haven't heard that before. I know that ground low or plain low in Phrygian is zamelo and in greek it is chamelo. Phrygian however, is not Thracian, even if in the past some classified it as that.


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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 06:24
Flipper, if you can provide me a clear picture and eventually a scholarly reading (by epigraphists) it would be great! That would clarify very much the forms of the names, and
besides, I personally know some philologists interested in Thracian onomastics.
 
I'm not sure I made my point clear. What I meant is that in the list the pairs of names mostly look like: Name1 <in nominative> Name2 <in genitive> and such names should be read as "Name1 of Name2". For instance "Beithys Pamphilou" should be "Beithys of Pamphilos". Kareventh(o)u can be "of Kareventhos". This rule would work for all pair of names except for row 2.
 
Dizas/Diza is a common Thracian name, also Dizo/Diso. I don't know about dhiza, but that dh sequence looks suspicios. Are you sure about its form?
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 06:25
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa


Thracian            English
germe                warm


Did you find germe between thracian words? Cause germe is "warm" in Phrygian as well.


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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 06:32
I don't know Darius' sources, but here is what I know.
 
Germe-  there's a deity Diana Germetitha in a Bulgarian inscription usually translated as "Diana, the one with the warm bossom" and also a toponym Germisara in Dacia (Ptolemy, Tabula Peut., and some inscriptions) usually translated as "warm waters" (it is located in today Romania near a thermal spring). It would be a cognate of the Greek thermos.
 
-bria, -diza these are common toponymic formants together with -para. For the Dacian area but also large parts of Moesia the common formant was -dava.
 
romphaia is a gloss given by some Greek authors (e.g. Hesychius), the Latin authors give the form rumpia
 
zelas, skalme, genton, zibythides are also glosses (also mentioned by Hesychius among others)
 


Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 12:58
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Flipper, if you can provide me a clear picture and eventually a scholarly reading (by epigraphists) it would be great! That would clarify very much the forms of the names, and
besides, I personally know some philologists interested in Thracian onomastics.
 
I'm not sure I made my point clear. What I meant is that in the list the pairs of names mostly look like: Name1 <in nominative> Name2 <in genitive> and such names should be read as "Name1 of Name2". For instance "Beithys Pamphilou" should be "Beithys of Pamphilos". Kareventh(o)u can be "of Kareventhos". This rule would work for all pair of names except for row 2.
 
Dizas/Diza is a common Thracian name, also Dizo/Diso. I don't know about dhiza, but that dh sequence looks suspicios. Are you sure about its form?
 


Yes, Chibuldios, you were clear and you're right. Name1 <in nominative> Name2 <in genitive> it is. What I was trying to say is that in the time speaking (around 1rst cent AD) if the name/surname is Nike Christidou it doesn't necessarely mean that Nike had a father named Christos. In classical times Christidou would not pass from parent to child, so if the father had a patronym Pamphylou and a name Platon, the child would not be called X of Pamphylos but X of Platon. Later, the childs carried their fathers patronym (not in all cases ofcourse) so Pamphylou could be the patronym of the father or simply an ancestor many generations ago.

Diza is what i meant. Dh is suggested to render the Greek soft Δ delta and that's why i wrote Dhiza instead of Diza. Thanks for the clarification.

I found the inscription online and it is here: http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=152429&bookid=152&region=4&subregion=11 - http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=152429&bookid=152&region=4&subregion=11

It was recently discovered so i don't think there's a scholarly reading online. I have some info on a book in english published as late as Mars 2008 and it is the first publication made. If you want i can scan it. It has the original stele in a clear photo and the text clear with comments.


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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 12:59
Btw, is Hesychious dictionary on Thracian available somewhere online? 

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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 13:14
Btw, i checked out "bolinthos" (a kind of bison) which was attested by Aristotle, according to whom that animal lived in the Messapian mountain, which separated the country of the Peonians from that of the Maideans.

The -nthos endings trace their roots in some early Anatolian language close to Luwian. As I said before, the Paionians are suspected to be Anatolians that moved to Thrace and that their language could be simply a mix of Thracian and Anatolian.

We know that bus in Greek means bull and could cognate to bo. We know also that lithos is a synonym to petra/las etc which means stone and could cognate with linthos. That could mean that linthos ment stone or mountain and bolinthos = mountain bull in some early anatolian language. That word may have passed through to Thrace with the Paionians. Just a theory ofcourse...What do you think?


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Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 14:54
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by Darius of Parsa


Thracian            English
germe                warm


Did you find germe between thracian words? Cause germe is "warm" in Phrygian as well.


Phrygian resembles Thracian, Greek, and Armenian languages.


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What is the officer problem?


Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 14:56
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Thank you Darius.
 
Although some of these words seem close to Slavic, unfortunately most of them don't.
 
What is the source of this BTW?


Collective readings, as well as some light surfing around the web.  This is what I came up with, although some may be incorrect.


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What is the officer problem?


Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 14:58
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm

I found this website, it is a Thracian glossary, though some of it seems to be incorrect.  Any thoughts?


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What is the officer problem?


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 19:55
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by Darius of Parsa


Thracian            English
germe                warm


Did you find germe between thracian words? Cause germe is "warm" in Phrygian as well.
Germe is "warm" in Persian too.


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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 20:25
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


Germe is "warm" in Persian too.


The next question would be how warm is called in Armenian...I don't think i can avoid asking that. Smile


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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 20:30
I answered the question myself...

In Armenian the word is "jerm". Shocked

Thracian          Phrygian          Greek         Armenian        Persian
germe              germe               thermos      jerm                germe

Also, the calling form (klitiki) of thermos in Greek is "therme".


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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 21:17
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Does anybody have a list of the Thracian words with established meaings?
 
Is that true that earth is zamol in Thracian?  Slavic is zemlia. Seems quite close.
The Modern Persian word for "earth" is Zamin, Middle Persian Zamik, Avestan Zam. -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zam - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zam


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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 02:27
The earth ethymology was linked to goddes Semela not only Zalmoxis. Note that it is not only related to word "earth" but also to word "soil" as it is in Slavonic languages. This was first proposed by Krechmer in 1935.
 
As far as I understand similarity between languages is studied not only by similarity of particular words (which is speculative -- in many cases we may only guess the meaning) but on the basis of phonetics. In this respect there are much more Thracian words, including names, toponyms, hydronyms etc. They are more than thousand. I recomend Ivan Duridanov's study about the place of Thracian languages in the Indoeuropean family. Look at http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_l/index.html - http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_l/index.html  and references therein.
The most full list of all thracian words published so far was done by Detschew in "Die Thrakischen Sprachreste" (in German). He cites all sources or inscriptions (Greek and Latin mostly for obvious reassons) where every particular word/name/toponym was found.
Here is the link for downloading:
http://kroraina.com/NI/Thrak_Sprachreste.djvu - http://kroraina.com/NI/Thrak_Sprachreste.djvu
 
There are also plenty of much less studied Greko-Thracian and Latin-Thracian mixed inscriptions some of them even not published yet.
 
For those who can understand Bulgarian here is a book about Daco-Thraco-Baltic relationship:
http://kroraina.com/NI/Kiril_Vlahov-Kym_vyprosa_za_trako-dako-baltiiskite_ezikovi_otnosheniq.djvu - http://kroraina.com/NI/Kiril_Vlahov-Kym_vyprosa_za_trako-dako-baltiiskite_ezikovi_otnosheniq.djvu
By Kiril Vlahov (very meaningful name Wink) and another his book about thraco-slavonic relationship:
http://kroraina.com/NI/Kiril_Vlahov-Trako-slavqnski_usporedici.djvu - http://kroraina.com/NI/Kiril_Vlahov-Trako-slavqnski_usporedici.djvu
 


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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 02:36
Sarmat, according to Maria Gimbutas there are archeological evidences of contacts between Slavs and Thracians. I mean not ones in Balkans but also much earlier on northern border between Thracian and Slavonic populations.

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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 02:40
Anton, what kind of files are those .djvu?



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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 12:58

Download somewhere djvu reader. It should be free.



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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 14:13
Originally posted by Flipper

I found the inscription online and it is here: http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=152429&bookid=152&region=4&subregion=11 - http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=152429&bookid=152&region=4&subregion=11

It was recently discovered so i don't think there's a scholarly reading online. I have some info on a book in english published as late as Mars 2008 and it is the first publication made. If you want i can scan it. It has the original stele in a clear photo and the text clear with comments.
Thank you, I didn't know it was published on the Packhum site. If it is not too much trouble for you I'd appreciate the scans, otherwise I think this would be enough for the moment to take a better look at the names.
 
Btw, is Hesychious dictionary on Thracian available somewhere online?
It's not only on Thracian, it is a Greek lexicon but contains many weird words, including some of the languages neighbouring Greek but which were known also by some Greeks (like these several Thracian glosses). Here are some volumes scanned by Google Books (those in full view can be downloaded as PDF):
 
http://books.google.com/books?lr=&as_brr=0&q=inauthor%3Ahesychius - http://books.google.com/books?lr=&as_brr=0&q=inauthor%3Ahesychius
 
After you'll download the DJViewer you can find in Detschew's TSR those Thracian words which are listed by Hesychius and follow the reference.
 
We know that bus in Greek means bull and could cognate to bo. We know also that lithos is a synonym to petra/las etc which means stone and could cognate with linthos. That could mean that linthos ment stone or mountain and bolinthos = mountain bull in some early anatolian language. That word may have passed through to Thrace with the Paionians. Just a theory ofcourse...What do you think?
Your etymology seems plausible, the only thing which doesn't seem clear is whether *linthos is indeed a cognate for lithos.


Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 14:20
As far as I understand similarity between languages is studied not only by similarity of particular words (which is speculative -- in many cases we may only guess the meaning) but on the basis of phonetics. In this respect there are much more Thracian words, including names, toponyms, hydronyms etc. They are more than thousand. I recomend Ivan Duridanov's study about the place of Thracian languages in the Indoeuropean family. Look at http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_l/index.html - http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_l/index.html  and references therein.
The most full list of all thracian words published so far was done by Detschew in "Die Thrakischen Sprachreste" (in German). He cites all sources or inscriptions (Greek and Latin mostly for obvious reassons) where every particular word/name/toponym was found.
Here is the link for downloading:
http://kroraina.com/NI/Thrak_Sprachreste.djvu - http://kroraina.com/NI/Thrak_Sprachreste.djvu
 
There are also plenty of much less studied Greko-Thracian and Latin-Thracian mixed inscriptions some of them even not published yet.
 
For those who can understand Bulgarian here is a book about Daco-Thraco-Baltic relationship:
http://kroraina.com/NI/Kiril_Vlahov-Kym_vyprosa_za_trako-dako-baltiiskite_ezikovi_otnosheniq.djvu - http://kroraina.com/NI/Kiril_Vlahov-Kym_vyprosa_za_trako-dako-baltiiskite_ezikovi_otnosheniq.djvu
By Kiril Vlahov (very meaningful name Wink) and another his book about thraco-slavonic relationship:
http://kroraina.com/NI/Kiril_Vlahov-Trako-slavqnski_usporedici.djvu - http://kroraina.com/NI/Kiril_Vlahov-Trako-slavqnski_usporedici.djvu
 
Detschew is indeed an authority in Thracian language, Duridanov's work is also impressive but I find it a bit one-sided (e.g. he claims there are little similarities between Thracian and Greek and lists some but using Detschew and other Thracologists I could find many more similarities between Thracian and Greek: -paibes vs paidos , Salmuris vs halmyris, Arzos vs Argos, -zenis/-zanus vs -genes, germ- vs thermos etc.)
 
I browsed a bit through Vlahov's works and the latter seems quite speculative.


Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 14:24
Thank you Chilbudios!
I'm writting a report about some excavations soon and those steles are to be included. I'm gonna send you a high resulution image of that stele and some others.

As for linthos, it is the part of the word that makes it a theory. I was thinking about the city of Olynthos, which had mines where somekind of whitestone (not marble) was excavated back in the days. We can never know though.


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Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 16:54
Originally posted by Chilbudios

I browsed a bit through Vlahov's works and the latter seems quite speculative.
I do not find it speculative. It is well known fact that Baltic and Slavic languages are from the same group, if you find similarities between Thracian and Baltic, one could expect similar similarities between Slavonic and Thracian as well.


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Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 16:57
Originally posted by Anton

I do not find it speculative. It is well known fact that Baltic and Slavic languages are from the same group, if you find similarities between Thracian and Baltic, one could expect similar similarities between Slavonic and Thracian as well.

They are? I thought that group was highly hypothetical.



Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 17:05
I do not find it speculative. It is well known fact that Baltic and Slavic languages are from the same group, if you find similarities between Thracian and Baltic, one could expect similar similarities between Slavonic and Thracian as well.
Vlahov links various Thracian roots (bur-, -per, -poris) to Bulgarian words on the basis of some questionable similarities, often ignoring vowels or various other etymological considerations taken in account by other scholars. Detschew and Duridanov have a different approach on these words. So, between Detschew's well informed and balanced linguistical analysis and Vlahov's approach, I find the latter very speculative. Here Cyrus did the same with Iranic and Germanic Tongue
 
 


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:00
Originally posted by Roberts

They are? I thought that group was highly hypothetical.
Well, this group means simply common origin. Obviously all indoeuropean languages have common origin but those two (baltic and slavonic) splitted from each other later than from the rest.


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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:04
Originally posted by Chilbudios

[quote]
Vlahov links various Thracian roots (bur-, -per, -poris) to Bulgarian words on the basis of some questionable similarities, often ignoring vowels or various other etymological considerations taken in account by other scholars. Detschew and Duridanov have a different approach on these words. So, between Detschew's well informed and balanced linguistical analysis and Vlahov's approach, I find the latter very speculative. Here Cyrus did the same with Iranic and Germanic Tongue
 
Duridanov finds similarities between Slavonic and Thracian in his book as well:
"

 2.4. Thracian, Baltic and Slavic

It is not a surprise that there are some Slavic analogies to the Thraco-Baltic parallels. Baltic and Slavic and closely related and are sometimes grouped together in a Balto-Slavic group. Here are some parallels:

– the Thracian PN Brinkazis, Brinkainos, the Slavic PN Brzek, Brzeko (Polish), Brekoja (Bulg.) and the Lith. VN (from FN) Brinkiškiai.

– the Thracian PN Kersēs, Kersos, the Old-Pruss. PN Kerse, Kerso (from kéršas 'on white and black spots'), and the Slavic PN Črch (Czech) (from the Old-Slavic *čьrchь), the Bulgarian Chernjo (from cheren 'black').

– the Thracian VN Kurpisos, the Lith. VN Kurpai, Kurpikai, etc., and the Bulgarian VN Kərpec (from the Old-Slavic *kərp-), the Russian korpatь 'to dig up', the Ukrainian korpati 'to dig, to rummage'.

– the Thracian tribe name Trausoi is identical to the Old-Latv. FN Trousz from the Latv. traušs 'friable', similar to the Lith. traušus 'friable, fragile' and the Old-Russian PN Truha, Trushь, the Old-Russian tronhə 'lazy, sad'.

– the first element in the Thracian VN Tarpo-dizos and the Lith. tárpas 'an interstice, an interspace' and the Church-Slavic trapə, the Bulgarian trap 'a ditch, a pit' (from the Old-Slavic *tǎrpə). "

 
Don't you find that Thracian will have parallels with Iranic and German? Here you some Duridanov's:

 2.5. Thracian and German

Specifically Thraco-German are the following parallels:

– the Thracian bólinthos 'a wild bull, a bison', and the Middle-German Bulle.

– the Thracian -thurd(a)- in the deity names Zbel-thurdos, Zbel-Thiurdos, and the Old-HighGerman sturzen, the Middle-HighGerman stürzen 'to push, to crash down'.

– the Thracian PN Mellai, -cella in Syra-cella, -kela in *Saldo-kela, and the Old-HighGerman quella 'a spring', the German Quelle.

– the Thracian skálmē 'a knife, a sword', and the Old-Icel. skolm 'a short sword, a knife'. The related words in other IE languages (the Greek skalmós, the Hittite kalmišana-, etc.) have different meanings and were not taken into account.

2.6. Thracian, Baltic and German

There are several such parallels:

– the Thracian PN Bérēs and the Lith. bėras 'brown', the river name Brė, the Latv. bẽrs 'brown (for horses)', the PN Bēr-upe, and the Old-HighGerman bero, the Anglo-Sax. bera, the German Bär 'a bear' (with an initial meaning 'brown').

– the Thracian daph- in the VN Daphabae, the Lith. dãpas 'a flood', and the Old-Icel. dafla 'to slap in the water; to splash', the Norw. dial. dave 'a puddle, a pool'.

– the Thracian VN Dingion, the Old-Pruss. PN Dinge, the Latv. dinga 'a plant; a fertile ground', and the Old-HighGerman tunga 'manuring'.

– the Thracian VN Kabýlē, the Old-Pruss. RN Cabula (instead of *Gabula), and the English quab.

 

 2.7. Thracian and Indo-Iranian

There are not too many parallels:

– the Thracian -dama in the VN Uscu-dama is explained from the IE *dhəmā and is compared to the Old-Indian dhāman- 'a place for living', the Avestan daman 'a place, a country'.

– the Thracian -diza, -dizos 'a fortress' in VN Tyro-diza, Kisti-dizos, Tarpo-dizos, and the Avestan pairi-daēza- 'a fence', the Old-Persian didā 'a fortress'.

also
– the Thracian PN Byzas, Byzēs, the Avestan būza 'a goat', the New-Persian buz 'a goat', and the Armenian buz 'a lamb'.

– the Thracian VN Perinthos, the Old-Ind. párvata- 'a mountains, a rock, a stone', the Avestan paurvata- 'a mountain', and the Hittite peruna- 'a rock'.

 Smile



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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:16
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa

Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by Darius of Parsa


Thracian            English
germe                warm


Did you find germe between thracian words? Cause germe is "warm" in Phrygian as well.


Phrygian resembles Thracian, Greek, and Armenian languages.
 
There is another proposition, slightly different. Germ means warm water. In this respect one could remember water celebration called German that is celebrated in Bulgaria, North of Greece and Romania (I do not know how is it called there though.)


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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:39
Duridanov finds similarities between Slavonic and Thracian in his book as well:
But these are not Vlahov's. Do you care about the arguments they make or you just enjoy when a scholar concludes Thracian has similarities with Slavic languages? Wink
 
Such lexical similarities are common among all IE languages. Vlahov was pushing further to say there were certain Thracian compounds showing consistently similarities with Slavic.
 
Don't you find that Thracian will have parallels with Iranic and German?
I actually referred to this:
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24637&PID=467291 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24637&PID=467291


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 18:53
Originally posted by Chilbudios

But these are not Vlahov's. Do you care about the arguments they make or you just enjoy when a scholar concludes Thracian has similarities with Slavic languages? Wink
Here is the border where I stop to appreciate your humour. I personally do not care if they are similar or not. It simply doesn't mean anything to me. I also believe, I do not have enough education to judge linguistic analysis myself. Kinda think, you don't have it either.


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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 19:54
Originally posted by Anton

Here is the border where I stop to appreciate your humour. I personally do not care if they are similar or not. It simply doesn't mean anything to me. I also believe, I do not have enough education to judge linguistic analysis myself. Kinda think, you don't have it either.
 It's a leit motif of your posts here that Thracian has some significant closeness to Slavic (you also supported this on the thread on the Second Bulgarian Empire). I pointed some flaws in the arguments of Vlahov (if you don't have enough education to judge linguistic arguments, how can you asses others' capacity to do that?) and I did not get any counter-arguments.
And as you don't trust me, why don't your read Polome's chapter on Balkan languages from CAH volume III.1 or other scholars to see for yourself, through peer-review, how much Vlahov's conclusions really worth (he's actually quoted by Polome with two works, both on Thracian toponymy, but nothing is said - neither from Vlahov, nor from other "enthusiast" scholars like Alinei, Mayer et al. - about alleged Thracian closeness to other languages, especially Slavic)?  


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 20:07
Originally posted by Chilbudios

It's a leit motif of your posts here that Thracian has some significant closeness to Slavic (you also supported this on the thread on the Second Bulgarian Empire).
 
The leit motif of my posts here was to share some books with those who were interested. I am sorry you didn't understand that. Neither did I sugest closeness to Slavic. Mate, you are like a bolynthos when arguing. LOL


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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 20:11
LOL, that was actually funny.
A thracian word that could create a new pan-balkan expression or at least a AE balkan expression. I think i will use it in the future if needed. LOL


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Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!


Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 20:22
Originally posted by Anton

The leit motif of my posts here was to share some books with those who were interested. I am sorry you didn't understand that. Neither did I sugest closeness to Slavic. Mate, you are like a bolynthos when arguing.
I see only one post with books, that hardly counts for a leit motif.
 
So the all these similarities between Thracian and Slavic (sometimes through a Baltic proxy), the substantial number of Thracian speakers existent at the end of Late Antiquity (ready to meet the Bulgarians), the common(!) substratum between Bulgarian, Romanian, and Albanian, are not about closeness. 
 
Play your games, Anton, I'll just bring my objections and perhaps you might get upset again that my horns were too sharp.
 


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 21:29
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Play your games, Anton, I'll just bring my objections and perhaps you might get upset again that my horns were too sharp.
 
 
I respect your objections and sometimes agree with them. Horns is different thing. They are full of accusation in nationalism and more sharp they are the less I would be proud of them if I were you. Smile


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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 22:01
Originally posted by Anton

Sarmat, according to Maria Gimbutas there are archeological evidences of contacts between Slavs and Thracians. I mean not ones in Balkans but also much earlier on northern border between Thracian and Slavonic populations.
 
This seems very possible to me.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 23:36
Originally posted by Anton

I respect your objections and sometimes agree with them. Horns is different thing. They are full of accusation in nationalism and more sharp they are the less I would be proud of them if I were you
I only pointed out how often you suggested Thracian is related/similar/close to Slavic, don't you think you overreact?
 
 


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 01:44
Originally posted by Chilbudios

I only pointed out how often you suggested Thracian is related/similar/close to Slavic, don't you think you overreact?
 
No.


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Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2012 at 01:56
Well, there is so few words that are supposed to be Thracian left, that one cannot really say anything with any degree of security. Here is an article on the translation of the golden ring from Ezerovo
 http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/EZERO2.jpg
http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_ezer07.pdf - http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_ezer07.pdf
Here is another one,  http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_tra07.pdf - http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_tra07.pdf   that uses the few Thracian words for geographical features to try to prove that the Slavs were the "indigenous population of the area" something that I don't buy.

The first article talk about connections and similarities of Thracian to both Greek and Slavic languages, but I had heard to connected to Baltic languages, Teutonic, modern Macedonian, whatever - when you have only few words from one language left, it's a fair game for anyone with an agenda to give it a try. All I can say is that it was probably Indo-European, but even that is not sure, considering that the pre-Greek population of the Balkans was heavily connected with Anatolia. The Thracians were culturally close to Mycenean Greece, and as such their language may as well have been close to Anatolian languages. They lived together with/next to  Greeks, their elites became Hellenized to a point, so Greeks words would be borrowed into it, but this doesn't make it close to Greek per se.

It's very possible the few supposedly Thracian words to have been borrowing from Greek or later from Slavs, when the Slavs hit the area in like 6-7 century AD, so what do we have to work wit? Next to zero. No one can make a respectable educated guess on so sparse and unsecure info.



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Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2012 at 02:31

I have just found this which might be of some interest:



Thracian Sacred Names and Terminology

To the memory of Gheorghe Mușu, magister mirabilis

Introduction

The present paper aims at putting together the relevant forms referring 

to the Thracian god-names and sacred terminology as known from various

sources.  We shall  try  to  make  justice  and  condensely  present  the  main

hypothesis of late Prof. Gheorghe Mușu, whose remarkable studies in the

field  of  comparative  religion  and  linguistics  are  little,  if  at  all,  known 

abroad; and refer to some of our previous studies.

It is understandable that the lexicon below is not complete, but tries to 

present  the  most  relevant  forms.  It  concentrates  on  the  Thracian 

terminology, but also to the Phrygian and Illyrian terms as far as they may 

prove relevant; and sometimes to the Greek deities if, in various sources, 

they  may  have  a  certain  Thracian  influence  in  their  cult  or  may  be

etymologically relevant.

As a synthetic brief work, it cannot explain many details; we tried to do

this on other occasions (see the references, mainly Paliga 1989 a, b, c; 1994 

a, b; etc). We should not forget that the complex Thracian beliefs, religion 

and  mythology  were recorded  by  various sources,  often  with  deformed 

spelling. There cannot be any doubt now that Thracian had specific sounds 

(e.g. č, ǧ, š, ť, at least a neutral vowel ə, maybe two in some dialects, etc.),

impossible to be accurately recorded in the Greek and Latin documents. A

possible  way  for  reconstructing  the  original  sounds  is  to  compare  the 

forms with  other  ancient languages, sometimes with forms  preserved in..........

http://www.unibuc.ro/uploads_en/29535/30/ThrSacNames.pdf - http://www.unibuc.ro/uploads_en/29535/30/ThrSacNames.pdf



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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2012 at 20:33
I am Romanian and I read a lot about the Dacian substratum in Romanian language and the connection between Dacian and Thracian.

My opinions, without citing sources:
- many linguists believe Dacian language had sounds without equivalent in Greek and Latin alphabet, so the few Dacian words reproduced in Greek writings (most of them) are altered.

The sound 'ă' is commonly used in Romanian, while other neo-latin languages lack this sound or use it very rarely.
Similarily, this sound is often used in Bulgarian ('ъ' like in България), while other Slavic languages lack it or use it rarely.

Because of this discrepancy between Romanian and other latin languages, but also between Bulgarian and other Slavic languages, many linguists believe 'ă' was a sound frequently used in Dacian and Thracian languages.

----------------
The sound 'u' which is often used at the end of many Romanian names is encountered in 2 categories of names:
1) names inherited from Latin, thus 'u' is coming from 'us' termination: Iuliu, Ovidiu, Corneliu (from Iulius, Ovidius, Cornelius)
2) names with origin in common nouns with the enclitic definite article 'l' specific to Romanian language (from late Latin 'ille'):
Examples: 
Albu (from 'albul' = 'the white'; 'alb' = 'white')
Ursu (from 'ursul'='the bear'; 'urs' = 'bear') 
etc.
There may be other cases I am not aware of.

The main idea is that the post-posed (enclitic) definite article in Romanian is 'l' for masculin and masculin words usually end in a consonant, making impossible the pronunciation of 'l' at the end.
This is why the voyel 'u' was added was a link between masculin noun and its definite article.

Most feminin nouns ends in 'ă' (nominativ, without article) and with enclitic article they change the last sound 'ă' in 'a'.
Example: mamă -> mama (the mother)
Notable exceptions are feminin nouns ending in 'a' without article -> they use again the 'u' sound as link to the enclitic definite article 'a'/
Example: stea (from Latin stella - star) -> steaua (the star)

I hope I could explain the origin of the 'u' at the end of many Romanian masculin words:
- is just a link sound and probably has nothing to do with Thracian or Dacian languages.


Posted By: vasile iuga
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2012 at 07:11

Regarding if they really speach a common language ,well i must say no ,not even in a close relation

There is only one question

1 Did  balts wore included into Tracian group by ancient Historians? (Because to say that tracians wore the biggest group in the world is impossible with only dacian and south dialects (today Bulgaria ,Serbia ,Romania ,E Hungary ,Est Slovakia ,R Moldova and 1 tird of Ukraine) all this area covered by 4 dialects is to little to be more than India in size ,s mayybe they wore put together)

Tracians have 4 dialects 1 nordic(getae or dacian) and 3 south dialects ,so it's very unlikely that tracians come from the est ,it's more likely to come from Anatolia ,because is more probably that this 4 dialects try to expand and only one have manage that ,the norther one ,so it clearly a south north expand not a north south expand.And there are many elements to comfirme this origin (swastica,helmets some words common to phoenicians ,life stile etc)  

Another big argument is that Illyric language is very close to dacian dialect of the language ,so the separation of this two paleo-balkanic groups have occure in north Romania and Hungary ,after the other 3 dialects permanently setlle today Rumelia(thrace).

What about the balts?

Here is weid ,they have many cultural links to Romanians ,so clearly a ancient connection ,not in a cultural way but far more close ,because Doina is a very very important song in the old world of romanians ,because is about the past ,traditions,comunion,celebration of spring ,it not a anciant commercial song ,like Lady Gaga today ho you will pass to neughbors ,it's more like the songs of a football ultras tribune  today,Doina was there believes  ,was there songs about them ,so i tend to say that the balts wore minimum the north illyrians of Tracian culture ,and more likely annothere tracian group,the 5 dialect of the language.

Doina is a national song so you have no reason to song that tipe of song if you have not being part of that culture.

About slavs

they clearly come from est (Moscow-north Don basin ) they wore push west by some asian tribe ? they cut the daco-romanias from the balts ,push the balts north in there drive west ,they hit Carpathians ,thy split in 3  ,1 remain in today Gallicia and Podolia ,the others move west ,hit the germans and split in two ,another group traverse Est of Dacia and settle in Moesia.

They cut in two the daco-romanian population and they drive them south and west  from today Serbia and Moesia in today Muntenegru ,Albania <Greece,Croatia and Bosnia ,were they receive names like Megleno-Romanians,Istro and Aromanian etc.

In there drive ,Aromanians push albanians out of today Kosovo and Macedonia in moving them west to the sea,then they wore push even more south .

It was a domino effect.

When slavs comed ,tracian language was extinct ,the only thracian influence that they could have receive is from the daco-romanian language spoken in moesia Romania and Serbia ,who was still very linked to dacian language ,the only dacian comunitys who wore not influnced very hardly by latin wore in the north Tisa basin  very far from early south slavs.

The 3 south dialects of tracian language wore partialy extinct in the time of the Dacian conquest and totally helenized after the split of the empire in two

So more likely slavs come from another branch of indoeuropeans and took another path ,there is connection but in a low level(a connection like German language to Spanish in our days) ,they probably never encounter tracians or pure dacians ,and the resemblance with balts come from the influnces made on balts and romanians after VI VII century.They found a  daco-romanian language in Moesia where they first settle and a greek language south of Balkans ,so the influences come from this early dacian-romance language ho give romanian language a most likely influenced the slavic language that is today Bulgaria.

It's widely accepted that slavs drove some romanians(mostly the upper clases) out of Moesia  and Serbia ,and assimilated the rest of them ,while in N of Danube ,romanians asimilated slavs setlers.

I can make a more big prologue but i don't have time.

Why romania language resemble bulgarian not serbian language ,because slavs ho formed bulgarian laguage commed early and they have split romanians and assimilated Moesia ,Serbia ,the slavs ho formed Serbia commed latter after the ground was releas by the first wave and they come from west (slovachia Hungary ).



Posted By: ilea
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2016 at 15:15
Simple logic ..If Thracian language was not slavic ( Old Church Slavonic) than what was the need for creating The Glagolitic alphabet (aka Cyrillic Alphabet)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic -   Кѷрїлловица (kyrillovitsa)?
  

Bulgarian claims from evidences dated 6th BC,  that Thracian language  from Ionian origin (Euboia   region


Thracian language  -  The key language is Old Bulgarian. Connections to other Slavic languages are also shown. Although short, the inscription on the Thracian golden ring provides us with enough information about the grammatical peculiarities of the Old Thracian language. These peculiarities are a useful tool for the purposes determining the ethnic affiliation of the people to whom Orpheus and Spartacus belonged. 

The present study of the Thracian language is based on an updated collection of epigraphic material found in Bulgaria. Our knowledge of the Thracian language comes from evidence that has been assembled by modern scholars throughout the last two centuries from two types of documents: literary documents derived from Greek and Latin writers and inscriptions. Owing to the fact that epigraphy has furnished less information, many scholars undertook investigations that were not based but on one principle, to find any form of indication leading to any possible information on the Thracian. Methodologically speaking, this kind of “thesaurus at any rate” has produced only more confusion extant in many writings to the present day. The multiplication of errors and misunderstandings dating from Antiquity to modern times is responsible for “rapprochements” of personal, god- and place-names in the vast area of the Mediterranean region using onomastic material, glosses or commentaries of ancient grammarians and lexicographers irrespectively.1 Therefore, the updated collection of epigraphic material found in Bulgaria is a kind of evidence that comes to reinforce our knowledge of Thracian names and Thracian words and phrases sporadically discovered and unveiled after years of scholarly work done by archaeologists, historians, and linguists. 

Yet another major difference lies in the effectiveness and clarity of the data accumulated; whereas in the past, criteria for words of Thracian language origin were based upon their being referred to as such by ancient Greek and Latin authors, in this study they must qualify and be listed as Thracian only if the inscriptions themselves indicate it. 

A few words are needed to set the background of Thracian linguistics. We dispose of no other resource but the inscriptions. Again, for practical reasons inscriptions in the Greek language are considered in establishing the inventory of Thracian onomastics. Latin forms of names coming from Latin inscriptions are more of a supportive nature for two reasons: for being late or because of the fact that Thracian settlements were following a Greek tradition throughout the Roman imperial period, keeping Greek and less so Latin in their everyday administrative activities, with only a few exceptions. The Greek inscriptions have a history of their own in Thrace proper. Their geography may well be divided in three major parts: (1) Thrace as part of present-day Bulgaria (2) Thrace as part of present-day Greece (and all of the Greek territories in Antiquity), and (3) Thrace in present-day Turkey along with Asia Minor where traces of Thracians were found in inscriptions. This division alone makes for the innumerable difficulties in presenting the material.48 The legends on a limited number of coins were used in this study. Their complexity requires a separate way of investigation, and the evidence they provide was utilized with caution.49 With many inscriptions found on metalwork, it became even more difficult to keep up with the line of equally treating all inscriptions and positive data at yield. For epigraphy developed its own way50 and therefore facts are hardly to be interpreted from a single point of view. For example, we cannot be sure that the value (in terms of alphabet reform, editing, and lettering) of an inscription found on the Athenian agora could be attributed automatically to an inscription found in Thrace. The situation is comparable to that found in similar fields, such as history of religion51 .

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Facts The golden ring of Ezerovo is presented in Figure 1. The text presented in Figure 1 is written in 8 lines in scriptio continua. The last line is engraved on the edge of the elliptical plate of the ring because of lack of space. The letters are 61 in number; they are clear and resemble those of the Greek alphabet [1], pp. 86, 87. They are: 

ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ 
ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ 
ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ 
PΑΖΕΑΔΟΜ 
ΕΑΝΤΙΛΕΖΥ 
ΠΤΑΜΙΗΕ 
ΡΑΖ 
HΛΤΑ

The text from Thracian burial ring in the deployed state:

ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛΤΕΑΝHΣΚΟΑΡΑΖΕΑΔΟΜΕΑΝΤΙΛΕΖΥΠΤΑΜΙ ΗΕΡΑΖΗΛΤΑ Detchev concluded that the found artefacts were used in a burial ritual – consisting of a three-day wake, called by the Greeks protezis. Detchev compared the objects with others, from Trebenište, Macedonia, where another golden ring was found, and concluded that the ring from Ezerovo was made especially for the burial (for the funerary purpose alone) and not for everyday use, or as seal ring [2], p. 106. 178 In the past decades many translations were offered, but to date, none is generally accepted. Dechev (quoted by Duridanov [1] p. 88) suggested the following transcription: Rolesteneas Nerenea tiltean esko Arazea domean Tilezypta mie erazelta. That he translated into: Bulgarian (Cyrillic): Аз съм Ролистенеас, потомък на Неренеас,Тилезипта, аразийка по род ме предаде на земята (погреба ме) Bulgarian (Latinic): Az săm Rolisteneas, potomăk na Nereneas, Tilezipta, araziika po rod me predade na zemjata (pogreba me) English: I am Rolisteneas, progeny of Nereneas, Tilezipta - of Arazian clan, gave me to the earth (buried me). Georgiev suggested a different reading [2], p. 108: Rolistene, as Nerenea Tiltea nesko arazea do mean tilezyptam ie eraz elta. That he translated into: Bulgarian (Cyrillic): Ролистене, аз Неренея Тилтея умирам спокойно до (теб) моя блаженопочивши аз, която децата отхрани (отгледа) Bulgarian (Latinic): Rolistene, az Nerenea Tiltea umiram spokoino do (teb) moja blagopočivši, az kojato deĉata othrani (otgleda) English: Rolistene, I Nerenea Tiltea die calm near (you) my silent sleeping (husband), (me) who the children fed (brought up the children). ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕ is interpreted by Georgiev [2], p. 108, as Thracian personal name in Vocative case consisting of two parts: ΡΟΛΙ and ΣΤΕΝΕ. He connects ΡΟΛΙ with Thracian personal name Ρωλής and the toponym Рολλι-γέράς, and the second part ΣΤΕΝΕ with the toponym Στένέ-κορτά. ΑΣ or АΣΝ Georgiev translates as I - me, corresponding to Old Bulgarian азъ (az) – I, me, Lithuanian ‘aš’ – I, me and Avestanic ‘azem’ – I am. About the part ΝΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛΤΕΑ Georgiev isn’t very certain, he suggests two possibilities: ΝΕΡΕ (E) ΝΕΑ ΤΙ - your young wife. ΝΕΡΕ he connects with Sanskrit ‘nari’ – woman, wife, Albanian ‘njeri’ – human, and points the Albanian phrase ‘grue(ja) e re’ – young woman, wife, also the Rumanian ‘soţia cel tânǎrǎ’ – young wife. NEA Georgiev connects with Greek νέά – new, coming from Indo-European ‘newa’ – new, young. T(I) or T’ is connected with Albanian ‘ty’, ‘t’’, ‘të’, Rumanian ‘ţi’, and Bulgarian ‘ti’, all with the meaning – yours in Dative case. ΙΛΤΕΑ is connected with Rumanian ‘aleasa-a’ – the chosen one (-a is interpreted by Georgiev as a suffixed definitive article) with the suggestion that the Thracian variant of the hosen one was ΙΛΤΕ-Α (with -A as suffixed definitive article). But Georgiev considers also the possibility that ΝΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛΤΕΑ was Thracian personal name: ΝΕΡΕΝΕΑ ΤΙΛΤΕΑ. ΝΕΡΕΝΕΑ is related to Latin personal names Neriene(s), Nerienis, Neria. ΤΙΛΤΕΑ is related to Thracian personal name Τιλθ-άζεις [2] p.109. The part ΝHΣΚΟ Georgiev connects with (Attic) Greek verb θνήσκω – I die. The following Α(P) ΡΑΖΕΑ Georgiev equates to A(N) PAZEA and translates AN as on, at. PAZE-A he interprets as line, row (here in Locative case) coming from Indo-European ‘rogi’ - line, direction, present in Vedic ‘raji’ – line, row, German ‘Reihe’ – row and 179 common Slavic ‘red’ – row. According to Georgiev PAZE-A has a suffixed definitive article as in ILTE-A. DO is connected with Latin ‘do’, Anglo-Saxon ‘to’, Lithuanian ‘do’ and Bulgarian ‘do’ - next, beside, up to. MEAN corresponds according to Georgiev to Latin ‘meum’, coming from Indo-European ‘meyo-m’ – mine, here in Accusative case. ΤΙΛΕΖΥΠΤΑM Georgiev interprets as silent – sleeping. ΤΙΛΕ he connects with Lithuanian ‘tylis’ – silent, calm, and ΖΙΠΤΑM with Sanskrit ‘supta-m’ – asleep, in Accusative case, and equates it with Bulgarian блаженопочивши (blazenopočivši) – died in peace. IH is equated to Greek ή – (this one) who, related to Old Phrygian ιος – (this one) who. HEPAZ means children according to Georgiev and is related with Phrygian έιροι – children. HLTA is translated as fed, brought up. HLTA → aluit – cared for, brought up (Thracian word, related to Latin ‘alo’ – I care for, I bring up [2], p. 108)


Etymology of the words 1. ROLI-STENE – Thracian personal name, here in Vocative case still preserved in Modern Bulgarian, Macedonian, Serbian, and Czech language. For male names the ending is E: Ivane = Hey Ivan! ; Petre = Hey Peter! [6], p. 24. Related to ROLI are the Thracian personal name Rolis and Oroles, corresponding to common Slavic word ‘orel’ – eagle and to Bulgarian personal name Орльо (Orljo) with the meaning eagle [7], p. 118. The part STEN can be connected with Bulgarian personal name ‘Стан’ (Stan) [7], p. 138. 2. AS – I, me corresponding to Old Bulgarian азъ (azǎ), Modern Bulgarian ‘аз’ (az) - I, Slovene ‘jaz’ – I, Lithuanian ‘aš’ – I and Avestanic ‘azem’ – I am. 3. NERE-NEA – female Thracian name with possible meaning strong one. It is derived 181 from Thracian word ‘aner’ man (strong one) and related to Gaulish ‘nertos’ strength, Hittite ‘innarumni’ strong, Luwian ‘innari’ strong, Sanskrit ‘nara’ man, ‘nari’ woman, and Bulgarian ‘nerez’ male animal (strong one). Other related Bulgarian word is ‘nestinarka’ dancing woman (it concerns a ritual dance on hot coals) In my opinion NERE is related to Bulgarian personal name Неранза (Neranza) [7], p. 116. The part NEA may correspond to Bulgarian personal name Нея (Neja) [7], p. 116. 4. TILTEANIS – Thracian family name with possible meaning: progeny of Teano. TIL is related to Old Bulgarian word тилище (tilište) - human, person, челядъ (čeljadă) - progeny, человекъ (čelovekă) – human. TEANO was female Thracian name. The wife of Antenor and daughter of Thracian king Cisseus was called Teano. As Slavic related anthroponyms I offer the Bulgarian personal names: Деян (Dejan) and Техан (Tehan). 5. KOA – who (fem. gender) corresponding to Modern Bulgarian коя (koja) - who (fem. gender), Slovene ‘kdo’ – who, Sanskrit ‘kah’– who, Luwian ‘kui’ – who also related. 6. RAZEA – wrote corresponding to Bulgarian verb реза, ряза (reza, rjaza) – wrote, carved (Aorist tense, 3-rd person singular of the verb режа (reža) – I cut, I make notches) Bulgarian words рез, ряз (rez, rjaz) – notch, mark, рисувам (risuvam) – I draw, I make lines, рисунка (risunka) drawing, образ (obraz) depiction, face. Slovenian words ‘rez’ – cut, ‘rezati’ – to cut, ‘rezba’ – woodcarving, ‘raziti’ – to scratch, and common Slavic verb ‘risuvati’ – to draw are also related. RAZEA is also related to Sanskrit words ‘rekha’ - notch, mark, ‘rekhati’ – to mark, to make notches. 7. DO - beside, next, corresponding to common Slavic word ‘do’ beside, next, up to. 8. MEAN – me, corresponding to Bulgarian мен, мене (men, mene) me, Slovenian ‘mene’ – me, Russ. меня (menja) – me. 9. TI – you, corresponding to Bulgarian ти (ti), Slovene, Serbo-Croatian, Czech ‘ti’ - you. 10. LEZI – lay! corresponding to Bulgarian лежи (leži)! lay! Ležati – to lay is a common Slavic verb; Slovenian: lézi! – lay down immediately!, lêži! – continue laying!, ležì - is laying. 11. PTA – master corresponding to Bulgarian бат (bat) – master. Old Bulgarians used the title Bat. Bat Bajan had meaning Master Bajan (in Modern Bulgarian бате (bate) is used as addressing towards elder brother). Bosnian ‘bato’ – big brother, Ukrainian батко (batko) – father, Russian батюшка (batjuška) master, Avestanic ‘pait’ – master are also related. PTA is related also to Scythian ‘peit’ – master (In the names Spargapeit [8], IV-76, Ariapeit [8], IV-78, which had also variant ‘biti’ – mistress in the theonym Tabiti – the Mistress [8], IV-59). Thracian personal name Baton is also related to PTA (perhaps pronounced B’TA). Other related personal names are the Bulgarian: Baton, Bat, Bato. PTA corresponds also to common Slavic word Gospod – Lord, master. PTA is in Vocative case, the ending -a corresponding to -o in Old Bulgarian [8], p. 25, (bлaдиkо! (vladiko)! – Oh leader!). 12. MIHE – my, corresponding to common Slavic ‘moj’ – my. 13. RAZIL – departed, corresponding to Old Bulgarian verb разити ся (raziti sja) Slovene 182 verb ‘raziti se’, and Russian ‘razoitis’, all with the meaning to go away, to depart. RAZIL is a past tense participle with ending L – [9], p. 38. The root in RAZIL is I (Infinitive iti – to go). RAZ is a common Slavic prefix which we find in Bulgarian verbs разбивам (razbivam) – I break, разбирам (razbiram) – I understand, раздавам (razdavam) – I give, I distribute, corresponding to Slovene verbs ‘razbiti’ – to break, ‘razbrati’ – to understand, ‘razdati’ – to give, to distribute. 14. TA - here, corresponding Old Bulgarian тоу (tu) – here, Modern Bulgarian тук (tuk) – here and Slovene ‘ta’ – this, that and ‘tukaj’ – here. The best match, however, is Slov. dial. (Idrija) ‘tà’ – here. Conclusion Despite the fact that the inscription was written about 2500 years ago, half of the words have remained almost unchanged in Modern Bulgarian: AZ = az – I, TI = ti – you, LEZI = leži – lie or lay, KOA = koja – who, DO = do – beside, MEAN = men – me, RAZEA = rjaza – cut. The rest of the words can be explained easily with help of the Old Bulgarian vocabulary and Bulgarian personal names. The phrase: ΔΟ ΜΕΑΝ ΤΙ ΛΕΖΙ! (do mean ti lezi!) is strikingly close to Bulgarian ДО МЕН ТИ ЛЕЖИ! (do men ti leži) – lay beside me! It was shown also that the words from the inscription have equivalents in Slovene, Czech, Russian etc. The grammatical peculiarities are very important when the affiliation of certain language has to be determined. We can notice the presence of Slavic (Blg. Sl.) personal pronouns AZ – I, TI – you, MEN – me, Vocative case in ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕ, and ΠΤΑ, Slavic Past tense in RAZIL, and Slavic (Blg.) Aorist in PAZEA, Imperative in LEZI – lay!, Common Slavic noun DO – next, beside, and the common Slavic prefix RAZ-. That gives me the right to claim that Thracian language was nothing more but archaic Slavic language. So much peculiarities in such short text are good prove that Simokatta wrote the truth: Slavs, or Getae (Thracians) because that was their name in the antiquity [5], p. 14.

New interpretation If the beginning of the inscription and words following it show such closeness with Bulgarian vocabulary and grammar, it is logical that an attempt should be made to decipher the rest of the words with the help of the Bulgarian and other Slavic languages. Only if this approach doesn’t give good results, one should proceed with the search for related words in other Indo-European languages. There is another reason to begin with Bulgarian and other Slavic languages. That is the presence of testimonies of the ancient authors equating Bulgarians with Thracians (Moesians) [4], p. 76-79, 107-108, 110, and Thracians (Getae) with Slavs. T. Simokatta (quoted by Tsenov in [5], p. 14) is very clear: Sclavos sive Getas hoc enim nomine antiquitus appellati sunt Slavs or Getae, because that was their name in the antiquity My reading deviates from that of the other researchers and that is why I divide the text in a different way and I recognise 14 words consisting of 61 letters: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕ ΑΣ ΝΕΡΕΝΕΑ ΤΙΛΤΕΑΝΗΣ ΚΟΑ ΡΑΖΕΑ ΔΟ ΜΕΑΝ ΤΙ ΛΕΖΥ ΠΤΑ ΜΙHE ΡΑΖHΛ ΤΑ ROLISTENE AZ NERENEA TILTEANIS KOA RAZEA DO MEAN TI LEZI PTA MIÍE RAZIL TA This I translate as: Ролистене, аз Неренея Тилтеанис, коа разеа: до меан ти лези пта мие разил та (Rolistene, az Nerenea Tilteanis, koa razea: do mean ti lezi pta miie razil ta) In modern Bulgarian: Rolistene, az Nerenea Tilteanis, (săm tazi) koja(to) rjaza (tova): do men ti leži sypruže moi počinal tuk. In English: Rolistene, me Nerenea Tilteanis (is the one) who wrote this: lay beside me my master, (husband) released here (in the grave) 

Ref:
http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_ezer07.pdf
http://www.cambridgescholars.com/download/sample/61248
https://books.google.com.vn/books?id=8gkaBwAAQBAJ&pg=PR24&lpg=PR24&dq=was+thracian+language+bulgarian&source=bl&ots=rldCSrJ5-A&sig=xXo26Yn4GQalBZKuKPYhjvk61Dc&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=was%20thracian%20language%20bulgarian&f=false



Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2016 at 17:29
Well reasoned and definitive enough. However your responding to a post 8 years from origination....and 4 years since the last response.

Which unfortunately makes you somewhat suspect as a potential spammer in disguise. Or your looking to gain credit viz a blog site publication. This is not a blog site. Or you have a genuine credible response years later. In either case...this thread is closed.

Not because of your post but because it remains a potential mechanism for spammers to infiltrate.

My recommendation to you... is 'flush' out your response and submit it for publication in either academia or the public sector.

Best of luck.

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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2016 at 09:47
I reopened the thread. I appreciate CV's concern over spammers, however, I would rather have this thread active and open for additional comment.

Spammers will show up regardless, that's what they made the delete buttons for..

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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2016 at 23:57
Need for creating of different languages and "nations" was given by simple rule :Divide et impera! Letters from above are "Greek" letters that were used those days in communication among people cause "Egyptian" syllables were non practical for trading and writing: i suppose we used same numerical system like those from clay tablets in Persepolis so 400 syllables+60 signs for numbers=460-500 signs.Too much. That's why "one voice one sign" alphabet was invented...I suppose "Egypt" had invented it for trading. Trading navy of Egypt used it.That means that "Greece" those days was part of the "Egyptian Commonwealth" ."Thracian" king fought with Philip 2 after "Egypt" had been occupied by "Persia".
I hope Cyrus will help us about numbers in ancient "Persian"!Sorry that will disappoint you but people those days were proud they were civilized&sanctified.



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