Current Affairs: What about a Roma people ("Gipsy") state?

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What about a Roma people ("Gipsy") state?

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Forum Name: Current Affairs
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Topic: What about a Roma people ("Gipsy") state?

Posted By: Menumorut
Subject: What about a Roma people ("Gipsy") state?
Date Posted: 11-May-2008 at 19:49

I think Roma people should have a territory of their own on this planet, somewhere in Europe. This would help them as the creation of Israel helped the Jewish people, not for that most of them would migrate to that territory but because they would get another self-conscience when having a land of their own.

The problem is: where to establish that territory? Romania is by far the country with the largest Roma community, some millions, inlcuding he mixed Romanian-Roma but establishing a Roma state on the territory of Romania I see unacceptable due to the bad behaviour they (Roma) have had and having toward Romanians and also Romania would start to look as a multinational state while the Roma community numbered only few hundred thousands some decades ago.

Other countries with the same high percent of Roma population (10-15% but rapidly increasingly) are Bulgaria and Hungary.

What you think, shoud be established such state and where?

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Replies:

Posted By: Vorian
Date Posted: 11-May-2008 at 20:24

Roma have been nomads since...forever and they don't even want a state for themselves.

Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 11-May-2008 at 20:54

Hmm, you forgot that, with the creation of Israel, we had approximately 6 wars and 2 Indifandas?

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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-May-2008 at 21:08

Roma people want to be free of the control of states.

In the case of Spain, Roma are so integrated to Spanish history and arts, that are considered central to the identity of that country.

In the case of my own country, they are starting to be assimilated to the mainstream. No matter that, they still preserve theirs traditions.

Finally, there isn't a single Roma people. The gypsies have a lot variety of culture and lifestyles depending on the countries they live. A Romanian gypsie has not much to do with a Spaniard Gypsy or an Arab or Latin American gypsie.

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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 11-May-2008 at 21:24

All of them I spoken with sayed that they want a state, ofcourse in Romania. I think is natural to want to know that somewhere in the world there is a place of your nation. And this would help them get better organized and preserve their identity against assimilation because in the same time of they are growing raported to Romanians, Hungarians etc they are linguisticaly assimilated and that means they will vanish at a moment.

Is true there are several different tribes, ones still conservative, but they all consider and are the same people.

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Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 11-May-2008 at 21:28

The Roma themselves dont have a united identity. In Albania, most of them -- if not all -- speak Albanian as their main language and would probably consider themselves Albs were it not for the fact that Albs around them reject this and continue making their very ethnic name a derogatory term.(magjyp, cigan, jevg, zezak are all terms related to the Roma and all are commonly used as insults in Albania)

Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 11-May-2008 at 22:39

@ Menu

Your argument against the creation of a Roma state in Romania is pretty weak. The bad behaviour one is hardly comprehensible and is actually an argument for the creation of a Roma independent state on the current territory of Romania (a Roma state in Russia would not be as appealing for the Romanian gypsies, so you would not get rid of them). And saying that Romania would become a multi-national country is not a problem either since Gypsieland would not be Romania.

That being said, even if the Roma want that independent state, I don't see how it could ever work. 1. There is not a ideology as strong, widely shared and structured as the Jews had with Zionism 2. The social variety amongst the Roma is pretty inexistent, it ranges from lower middle class to miserable (I saw a family living in a horse-carriage last year in Southern Portugal), I don't see the ruling elite that de facto started Israel 3. Knowing the present issues with organized crime in Eastern Europe and the crime issues the Roma population are often mixed with, one could wonder if the Roma state wouldn't turn into a crime heaven in Europe.

More importantly, I don't see the State as a solution for the Roma. I mean, now more than ever the technological possibilities exist for a nomadic life (wireless communication). The Roma should be able to develop a on-the-move-cottage-industry (if need be with a bit of state support) rather than given the opportunity to have a state.

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I am a free donkey!

Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 11-May-2008 at 22:54

More importantly, I don't see the State as a solution for the Roma. I mean, now more than ever the technological possibilities exist for a nomadic life (wireless communication). The Roma should be able to develop a on-the-move-cottage-industry (if need be with a bit of state support) rather than given the opportunity to have a state.

Most Roma people I know are not nomadic. Actually I'm certain that most Roma people in Romania live in villages and cities, not in tents.

Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 11-May-2008 at 23:06

Its true, Roma's have long since been settled; and hover mainly in the urban sphere.

Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 11-May-2008 at 23:25

Originally posted by Maharbbal

The bad behaviour one is hardly comprehensible and is actually an argument for the creation of a Roma independent state on the current territory of Romania (a Roma state in Russia would not be as appealing for the Romanian gypsies, so you would not get rid of them). And saying that Romania would become a multi-national country is not a problem either since Gypsieland would not be Romania.

The situation is that the Roma are spreaded all over Romania (each locality has a Roma district with the exception of small vilages but also there are tens of majoritary Roma villages and even a town or some) and there are two more densely Roma-inhabited areas, one arround and in Bucharest (I think one of three Bucharestians has Roma blood, at least as a result of mixage) and one in the former Saxon area in Southern Transylvania. So, the creation of a Roma state would lead to the weakening of the Romanian state.

If would be created a Roma autonomous region, would be either in Bucharest region, so the capital of the country would become the capital of another people, either in the former Saxon area which* is right in the center of the country.

The creation of a Roma state in Russia would attract some millions Roma there, as Israel attracted Jews from allround the world. Not all of them, most will remain in their country but shall exist a Roma country and their identity would be saved.

_______________________
*As the pretended Hungarian-Szekler region too.

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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 00:00

Originally posted by Menumorut

The situation is that the Roma are spreaded all over Romania (each locality has a Roma district with the exception of small vilages but also there are tens of majoritary Roma villages and even a town or some) and there are two more densely Roma-inhabited areas, one arround and in Bucharest (I think one of three Bucharestians has Roma blood, at least as a result of mixage) and one in the former Saxon area in Southern Transylvania. So, the creation of a Roma state would lead to the weakening of the Romanian state.

If would be created a Roma autonomous region, would be either in Bucharest region, so the capital of the country would become the capital of another people, either in the former Saxon area which* is right in the center of the country.

AFAIK the mixture between Roma and other ethnicities is relatively reduced (though not inexistent). On the official census from 2002, I know that ~20-30000 persons in Bucharest declared themselves as Roma (from some over 500,000 country wide). The real numbers are of course, larger, as mixed bloods and also Roma people who do not speak the language tend sometimes not to identify themselves as Roma. However 1 in 3 (that is some 6-700,000), even counting mixed bloods, is an exaggerated figure.

Not all of them, most will remain in their country but shall exist a Roma country and their identity would be saved.

I don't know if you noticed, but in EU, from which many countries with Roma minorities are part of, there's such thing as minority rights. I don't think these people want a part of the steppe so they can lay their tents, they want to be part of the society there are in now. Opposing to your experience, I have never heard Roma people militating for an own state (and I had even Roma neighbours or primary school colleagues). As for criminality, there are always two sides of the coin. Many Roma are aware they are "the other" in the societies they are now part of, so crime may be sometimes their way to deal with this.

Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 00:31

Originally posted by Chilbudios

AFAIK the mixture between Roma and other ethnicities is relatively reduced (though not inexistent). On the official census from 2002, I know that ~20-30000 persons in Bucharest declared themselves as Roma (from some over 500,000 country wide). The real numbers are of course, larger, as mixed bloods and also Roma people who do not speak the language tend sometimes not to identify themselves as Roma. However 1 in 3 (that is some 6-700,000), even counting mixed bloods, is an exaggerated figure.

Only in Ferentari district of Bucharest there are 90000 pure Roma, in Rahova another 50-70000, actualy the 5th sector is a Roma sector, despite the Presidential Palace and the Parliament are in the same sector.

In the 2nd sector (where I live) most cildren belong to Roma. But most of them want be considered Romanians.

The 500,000 were mostly those still speaking Romani. Even the most vanitous (as individuals) of them refuse to decline their Roma identity at censuses because this makes them feel inferior.

I don't think these people want a part of the steppe so they can lay their tents, they want to be part of the society there are in now. Opposing to your experience, I have never heard Roma people militating for an own state (and I had even Roma neighbours or primary school colleagues). As for criminality, there are always two sides of the coin. Many Roma are aware they are "the other" in the societies they are now part of, so crime may be sometimes their way to deal with this.

Imagine that such a state would be created. There are enough of them wanting to begin a new life there, living from agriculture etc.

I asked some of them and they sayed would wish such a state, but they don't militate for this because they feel this not very just, which is wrong, they have the right of having a country.

The minority rights cann't save them from assimilation, just watch what is happening with the Balkans Vlachs.

I agree with what you say about criminality, the fact that is higher among them ofcourse is not a genetical characteristic.

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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 00:46

Originally posted by Menumorut

Only in Ferentari district of Bucharest there are 90000 pure Roma, in Rahova another 50-70000, actualy the 5th sector is a Roma sector, despite the Presidential Palace and the Parliament are in the same sector.

In the 2nd sector (where I live) most cildren belong to Roma. But most of them want be considered Romanians.

The 500,000 were mostly those still speaking Romani. Even the most vanitous (as individuals) of them refuse to decline their Roma identity at censuses because this makes them feel inferior.

Can you give reliable sources for your claims? I happen to live in this city for decades and I find your claims fictional and stereotypical. I lived in some of those sectors, I worked in them, I personally know people from them. And no offense, from your earlier threads you left me with the impression of a person who does not have a rich social life, so forgive me I distrust your personal experience. I also happen to know your accounts on other forums and your discourse on Gypsies, so again, another reason to distrust.

I asked some of them and they sayed would wish such a state, but they don't militate for this because they feel this not very just, which is wrong, they have the right of having a country.

See above.

The minority rights cann't save them from assimilation, just watch what is happening with the Balkans Vlachs.

Many Hungarians in Romania seem to preserve their identity. Why aren't you more optimistic about it?

Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 00:48

I think it has to be in Romania.

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Anfører

Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 00:53

Hmm why would Romania be weakened by an influx of millions of consumer/producers???

Any nation will refuse to give up some territory. Russians proved in Chechnia that they weren't too keen on letting even the small part of their territory go away. I don't see why Southern Transylvania wouldn't be good, the fact that it is in the middle of Romania is more a problem for Gypsieland than foe Romania itself.

Besides, what region would Russia give to the Roma? They'll certainly not give them a highly producing area, so the Roma are likely to find themselves somewhere in the middle of central Asia or Siberia, it is likely that no Roma will ever go there, so may as well not do it.

If it is getting rid of the Roma that you want, just open camps for them.

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I am a free donkey!

Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 01:07

Originally posted by Chilbudios

Can you give reliable sources for your claims? I happen to live in this city for decades and I find your claims fictional and stereotypical. I lived in some of those sectors, I worked in them, I personally know people from them.

You cand find data on Internet saying that out of the 120,000 Ferentari inhabitants 80% are Roma (open Google and type Ferentari or better jump directly to http://www.divers.ro/accent_ro?func=viewSubmission&sid=7548&wid=37454 - this link , look for the red text paragraph).

And no offense, from your earlier threads you left me with the impression of a person who does not have a rich social life, so forgive me I distrust your personal experience. I also happen to know your accounts on other forums and your discourse on Gypsies, so again, another reason to distrust.

You don't have to have a rich social life (as you maybe have, happy you

) to meet them, anyway, I'm not completely isolated from society, I live in the same city and have daily contacts whith some of my acquaintances.

In last period I have had some closer relations with some Roma people and this changed me.

Many Hungarians in Romania seem to preserve their identity. Why aren't you more optimistic about it?

There is already a Hungarian state.

Originally posted by Maharbbal

Any nation will refuse to give up some territory. Russians proved in Chechnia that they weren't too keen on letting even the small part of their territory go away.

Anyway, Romania is a too small country for this.

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Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 01:12

There are much smaller countries that Romania, and more populous ones on top of that.

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I am a free donkey!

Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 01:19

I mean the raport between the whole territory and the gived one.

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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 01:28

Originally posted by Menumorut

You cand find data on Internet saying that out of the 120,000 Ferentari inhabitants 80% are Roma (open Google and type Ferentari or better jump directly to http://www.divers.ro/accent_ro?func=viewSubmission&sid=7548&wid=37454 - this link , look for the red text paragraph). I found also data (that is no more available) saying that there are 90000.

That is no reliable source. Please keep in mind that official census 5 years ago found less than 30,000 people in Bucharest declaring themselves as Roma. If it's natural to suspect a larger number due to reasons stated above, but a figure many times higher requires solid evidence. Moreover your claims were not about one neighbourhood but generally about sectors 2 and 5 and you claimed that a third of the population of Bucharest is Roma. Either support these claims, or abandon them.

You don't have to have a rich social life (as you maybe have, happy you

) to meet them, anyway, I'm not completely isolated from society, I live in the same city and have daily contacts whith some of my acquaintances.

You do need a rich social life to conclude from your own experience something about the demographics of a city of 2 million inhabitants (I wouldn't dare to estimate the number of Roma only by my experience, though). Or sources.

There is already a Hungarian state.

Yes, but there's a large surviving Hungarian minority in Romania, so it means a minority can survive.

Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 01:38

Either support these claims, or abandon them.

I'm spending much time on streets and observed not only at pedestrians but at the cars passangers what I sayed.

That was not about their number but about their opinion on the matter of this topic.

Yes, but there's a large surviving Hungarian minority in Romania, so it means a minority can survive.

It's surviving due to the existence of Hungary.

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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 01:56

Originally posted by Menumorut

I'm spending much time on streets and observed not only at pedestrians but at the cars passangers what I sayed.

I doubt the accuracy of your observations. Since you persist, let me draw a card: on a different forum one of your nicknames (you had few accounts there) could be translated roughly in English as "Anti-Gypsianization". Do you want me to continue (I can even translate some of your messages to illustrate why I don't trust your personal testimony on Roma)?

That was not about their number but about their opinion on the matter of this topic.

If you trace back this chain of quotes you'll see it was about their number. Anyway, I told you earlier I have multiple reasons to distrust your personal experience, so bring a better evidence if you do have a claim about the "Gypsianization" of Romania or their wish to create and move in a state of their own.

It's surviving due to the existence of Hungary.

Prove it.

Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 01:57

Originally posted by Maharbbal

Hmm why would Romania be weakened by an influx of millions of consumer/producers???

Any nation will refuse to give up some territory. Russians proved in Chechnia that they weren't too keen on letting even the small part of their territory go away. I don't see why Southern Transylvania wouldn't be good, the fact that it is in the middle of Romania is more a problem for Gypsieland than foe Romania itself.

Besides, what region would Russia give to the Roma? They'll certainly not give them a highly producing area, so the Roma are likely to find themselves somewhere in the middle of central Asia or Siberia, it is likely that no Roma will ever go there, so may as well not do it.

If it is getting rid of the Roma that you want, just open camps for them.

Why to create it in Russia in the first place?

The number of Russian Roma is much smaller than the number of Roma in Romania, Hungary, Spain or Turkey. Besides there are no territories with dense Roma population in Russia anyway.

Also IMHO Roma identity is more connected to Balkan cultural region than to Russia.

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Σαυρομάτης

Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 02:17

Originally posted by Chilbudios

let me draw a card: on a different forum one of your nicknames (you had few accounts there) could be translated roughly in English as "Anti-Gypsianization". Do you want me to continue (I can even translate some of your messages to illustrate why I don't trust your personal testimony on Roma)?

As I sayed, I changed (I may say deeply) since then. Anyway, I found bad your way of denouncing me.

I don't answer more at the other two paragraphs since you started again to dissect my messages in an inutile way.

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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 02:24

Originally posted by Sarmat12

Why to create it in Russia in the first place?

The number of Russian Roma is much smaller than the number of Roma in Romania, Hungary, Spain or Turkey. Besides there are no territories with dense Roma population in Russia anyway.

Also IMHO Roma identity is more connected to Balkan cultural region than to Russia.

Russia has large territories due to imperialist expansion, in Balkans is too narrow, this was the idea. But I didn't think this without the wish of the Russian people. If they don't want this, should not happen.

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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 02:56

Originally posted by Menumorut

As I sayed, I changed (I may say deeply) since then. Anyway, I found bad your way of denouncing me.

I don't answer more at the other two paragraphs since you started again to dissect my messages in an inutile way.

The things you have said on this thread are essentially those you said last year on that forum. Whatever has changed in you, it is not about the seeing Gypsies everywhere and looking for solutions to send them away from the society you live in. And since you insisted to provide your personal experience as evidence, I think is fair both for me and for other readers to know your agenda.

Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 03:15

OK, you have a perfect agenda and a rich social life, now are the guard keeping the forum clean of me?

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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 03:30

Whatever agenda and social life I have I said I wouldn't dare to estimate the number of Roma people (and many other things, actually) based only on that.

Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 03:36

Originally posted by Menumorut

Russia has large territories due to imperialist expansion, in Balkans is too narrow, this was the idea. But I didn't think this without the wish of the Russian people. If they don't want this, should not happen.

Then, please also add USA, Canada and Brazil to the list of "the large territories due to imperialist expansion."

I wonder if there are any actual Roma among the participants of these thread. It's funny how non-Roma are trying to make Roma happy, by offering them an independent state, without knowing the opinion of actual Roma.

Interesting observation is that they never had a state, yet their culture and identiy is intact. "Permanent state" is not really what "Gypsy soul" is about. Are there any international Roma group which advocate for the creation of a separate state at all?

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Σαυρομάτης

Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 03:38

Whatever agenda and social life I have I said I wouldn't dare to estimate the number of Roma people (and many other things, actually) based only on that.

I'm tired of your atitude of 'moderating' me, you make me feel I'm not wanted on this forum, this may be true so I'll take a break.

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Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 09:42

Can you guys speak with evidence? Chilbudios, if you have any problem with this man, bring proofs , links etc. The same for Menumorut. If we discussed this way in all topics, as you do, then the forum would have collapsed in one day. Stop referring to personalities and agendas, and , finally, bring material to discuss.

Concerning the subject of the topic. There is no way to create a gypsy State in the Balkans,because none of the Balkan States is willing to allow such a thing.

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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)

Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 12-May-2008 at 21:50

Never heard about Roma want a separate state for themselves. I rather see nationalistic ideas very far away from Roma's culture and customs. Creating such state in Scandinavia or Russia would be crazy. Roma are not Eskimos, they won't live igloos. Second thing Russia and any other European country will not agree for something like that.

All reasons You mentioned why Romania will not agree for Roma state, perfectly fit any other Balkan country.

Anyway what European Roma need is not a separate country but help from the states where they live and as well from the whole EU to increase their level of education and standard of living.

Posted By: Richard XIII
Date Posted: 14-May-2008 at 11:31

They slowly move in Italy.

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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

Albert Einstein

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 14-May-2008 at 12:11

Originally posted by Chilbudios

Most Roma people I know are not nomadic. Actually I'm certain that most Roma people in Romania live in villages and cities, not in tents.

Indeed, that is a bias most people have. The largest percentage of Roma live like everyone else. However, people tend to identify as Roma only those living in tents.

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Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 14-May-2008 at 16:59

I believe that the creation of a Roma state is wrong. It's creation could be an oppresive act to the inhabitants of the area appointed, unless it was a wasteland which would also be discriminating for the Romas. Roma people should feel that the country they live in is their home. A creation of a Roma state would proove, that the home feeling has failed and that we treat them as second category citizens.

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Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2014 at 04:25

They have it here:(with intentions to cover all theritory of state)

http://www.inyourpocket.com/macedonia/skopje/sightseeing/out-of-town/Sutka_29110v - http://www.inyourpocket.com/macedonia/skopje/sightseeing/out-of-town/Sutka_29110v

Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2014 at 14:17

The country should be in Romania or Bulgaria but there is huge different between Jews and Gypsy

There is no common religion, neighter common language/languages such as Yiddish and Ladino for Jews. However language division is more powerful in gypsy.

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Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır

Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2014 at 21:22

The Gypsy population in Bulgaria is largely antisocial, and from what I have read similar populations in other countries are asocial, if not downright antisocial. There are few Gypsy intellectuals in Bulgaria, but ironically they are not accepted by the mainstream Gypsy population and considered outcasts by the mainstream Bulgarian one; so their situation is one of isolation and loneliness. I cannot imagine a Roma state organized along social lines to start with.

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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2014 at 04:07

The question is why?

Historically, they disassociate themselves with any sovereign homeland identification in general. Why now a need to dictate to them a 'state'... if their traditional love of independence and freedom doesn't require it or a majority voice amongst them has yet to demand it.

Would the world enslave them to a status they don't seek?

Sounds if not patronizing then dictatorial to me.

Iow. when has anyone, other than the Roma, been determined to be the spokesman for or representative of the Roma.

By what authority is it... that they should be subject to the whims of the non Roma; who would then dictate their future. There lies the conditions and factors that once had the Roma as second class citizens and slaves.

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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman

Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2014 at 14:07

If you are without a country, you are without a voice in modern affairs.

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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2014 at 15:33

Three ideas are acceptable for me

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Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır

Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2014 at 15:38

India can support them.Here they declare themselves Turks also.

Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2014 at 05:43

Originally posted by medenaywe

India can support them.Here they declare themselves Turks also.

Turk???

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Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır

Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2018 at 11:25

Multiple identity .theft!

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Na"De"Na"J=From Worshiping =Praising God-Compensation=Refund=Tax-Bank=Money=Cash=Coin originated-positioned-suited... Population=People-Mortality=Lethality-Action=Activity=Business=Trade=Culture(Ja)

Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2018 at 10:40

The UN officially recognizes the Roma as an independent cultural entity. They have representation in General Council.

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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.