Roman Catholics have lost a place!
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Current Affairs
Forum Discription: Debates on topical, current World politics
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23973
Printed Date: 28-Apr-2024 at 10:05
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Topic: Roman Catholics have lost a place!
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Subject: Roman Catholics have lost a place!
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 09:33
This thread is dedicated to Ponce, for his recent thread of similar name, but mostly to Leonardo, for reasons I am sure we are all aware!
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Replies:
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 10:32
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Is that Shiites plus Sunnis or just Sunnis. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 10:47
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Why pick out one Christian sect, and compare it to all Islam?
I'm reminded of Bob Jones and others in the US and probably elsewhere who refer to 'Christians and Catholics'. ------------- |
Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 11:46
I'm not aware ... (I'm not even a believer)
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Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 12:00
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Bob Jones University? Thought they were the KKK of acadaemia? ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 13:58
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Do these statistics take it for granted that the whole population of Poland, for example, is Roman Catholic - or that everyone in Turkey is Muslim? What about Atheists and Agnostics? Or is this an indicator that the whole world will succumb to Islam? ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 15:01
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The extent or vigiour of faith is huge variable and best left out. Many people identify with a religion even if they do not practice it. ------------- |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 16:10
Roman Catholicism is not a religion. ------------- |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 16:18
I wouldn't equate it with anything evil, or even especially political. As with a lot of these "non-denominational" organizations, you file as a religious organization, and get yourself exempt from Federal tax. That makes a much bigger reservoir of money for the Jones family, and all the in laws, to draw on.
Just a con game with a legal face: As long as suckers empty their wallets, it is a pretty good gig.
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Posted By: The Charioteer
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 16:18
This is for both of you
http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/can_you_believe_it/debates/rootofevil.html - http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/can_you_believe_it/debates/rootofevil.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2epvSAGuLc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2epvSAGuLc
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 16:19
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For this thread - given the thread starter - I believe it can be treated as such, for argument's sake. ------------- |
Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 16:27
So what is it? ------------- Me pune,me perpjekje. |
Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 16:30
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As far as i know Islam has overtaken Catholicism but still over all Christians have the largest population in the world,about 30% of the worlds population is Christian.About 20% is Islamic. ------------- Me pune,me perpjekje. |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 16:43
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Christianity is a religion; Catholicism which is exclusive of many other Christian denominations is obviously just a section of Christianity, like Orthodoxy etc... and does nmot represent Christianity as a whole and as such is not a religion. ------------- |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 16:48
That has been going on since the early Germans became Arian Christians and the Catholics looked upon them as more profane than the pagans. These things splinter and fight among each other, and then recognize common roots. It happened with the 11th c. Schism and again with the Reformation.
AFAIK, nearly all Christian sects other than the most fundamental (who sometimes are like Old Testament Jews) recognize the Nicene Creed as a statement of faith. That has been pretty consistent since the 4th century.
Christianity is Christianity regardless of what con artists like the TV evangelicals say.
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Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 17:28
This is especially true in the West, where secularism has certainly detracted from religious faith. I would wager that a huge portion of those identifying themselves as Christians in Western Europe -- and, to a lesser extent America -- do so for reasons that center as much on culture as they do on faith. I don't know to what extent this is true of the broader Muslim world as well. Anyone care to educate me?
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 17:31
An interesting distinction, the discussion of which could take up a thread all by itself. Perhaps we should start a thread on the distinction between "sects" and "religions", as well as the contexts in which these terms may be inserted.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 21:29
Catholicism is a sect??  ------------- Me pune,me perpjekje. |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 21:54
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By definition, actually. ------------- |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 12:18
And that should be 'Roman Catholicism'. Omar happily got it right in the topic title. ------------- |
Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 19:08
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I dont think so,i am not so sure if Catholicism is a religion or if Christianity is not a religion.
But anyway my opinion is that Christianity is not a religion is a cultural,historical term.
Since Christianity is a religion,tell me please what was the religion that Jesus brought to the world?And when did Jessus mention this religion by name,or when did he speak about a religion?
AS for Islam,is different,Mohamed spoke about Islam.
I think that the term Roman Catholicism qualifies more as a religion then the term Christianity.Christianity is nothing more then the term to describe different religions who all belive in Christ. ------------- Me pune,me perpjekje. |
Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 19:13
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Better put,Christianity is term to describe a civilisation,and not a religion,Christ did not bring to the world a religion named after him.
What we can say is that the world has different Christian religions.Or better put is what Vatican sais (Faiths)
------------- Me pune,me perpjekje. |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 19:18
Well, actually it is both. The term may be applied and understood in different ways, depending upon the context in which it is used.
Well, Christ did speak about founding a Church, and He did gather together a group of followers whom He instructed thus:
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Amen. [Matthew 28: 18-20]
As for the actual name "Christians", it is recorded that "the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch." [Acts 11: 26]
Still, I don't quite see your point.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 19:28
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My point is that Catholicism is not a sect but a religion,and that Christianity is a term that includes many religions,which are united only by the name Christ,but which share particular historical,and cultural values in a particular territory.
------------- Me pune,me perpjekje. |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 19:37
I buy that, given the context you have established. I'm sure you will note that in a different context -- one which, I believe, is more commonly used -- Roman Catholicism would be considered a sect. Also in a more commonly used context, Christianity would be considered a religion. Still, I do take your point.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 00:44
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Wow, more posts than I expected on this topic. I don't really understand why this is news because muslims have outnumbered Catholics for a long time now. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 01:06
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Not really considering they all have the same root. They (protestants et al) are all off-shoots of the same religion with different interpretations in some cases, making them sects of the same religion.
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 05:52
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If you extend that argument too far then Islam, Christianity & Judaism are all the same religion
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 11:49
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That's what the word Abrahamic is for. Christianity by definition stems from Christ, his teachings and the gospels etc. I am not sure how many different versions of the new testament there are but the vast majority of them are pretty much the same, no doubt. Does each sect preach from a different interpretation of the new testament? ------------- |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 11:55
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I agree it's a bit arbitrary. However, those three whatevers recognise different books as the final revelation, and recognise different founders. On the other hand, Catholics, roman and otherwise, Lutherans, Calvinists and so on all recognise the same books and the same founding figure. All branches of Judaism are also the same as each other in those areas, and so too are all branches of Islam.
So if one is clustering religious groupings hierarchically it makes sense to have Judaism, Christianity and Islam at the same level within the same higher level group (whatever one might call it, Abrahamic is fine by me), and the different groupings within each of them at a lower level or levels (as for instance, there are several groups making up the Catholic one, and several included under Calvinism). The labels stuck on each level are arbitrary, but the common usage is to use 'religion' for the level at which Judaism, Christianity, and Islam stand.
(PS: Unitarianism and Mormonism probably should count as different religions according to that criterion too.)
Some recognise slightly different books of the old testament but not as far as I know of the new. Of course they do interpret them differently, which is what makes them different sects.
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 13:50
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gcle said it better than I could.
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Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 17:01
All sects preach from a different "interpretation" from the the NT, this is why they are different sects. A key reason for this, and this is more to the point of what you're asking, I believe, is for figures such as Martin Luther who have taken key words out of some verses. In so doing, the passage takes on an entirely new meaning. Also have you ever seen the book that the Jehovah's Witness use, the NWT:
In the Beginning the Word was, and the Word was God, and the Word was a god.
(Distortion of John 1:1)
-Note also the small "g" after the Word. A sublety as to de-note Christ as a demi-God.
Also Luther took out entire books of the Old Testament.
Just a few examples. ------------- Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2008 at 11:47
The question though referred to the New Testament. The early Christians also shuffled the OT books around a lot, which is why the Christian OT (all sects, afaik) differs from the Tanakh. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2008 at 11:56
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My question was rhetorical and was meant to emphasise the sects, but obviously I didn't communicate well enough :(
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Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2008 at 14:35
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The comments here point up that "the Books" are all instrumentalities of man, not God. The thoughts in them have been changed, manipulated, deleted and "shuffled" (I like that one) as elites that controlled that process saw it to their advantage. Therefore, any ideology that takes as its base, or its entire fabric, a "revealed word" is to be looked at with the greatest suspicion. |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2008 at 14:36
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You're damn right. ------------- |
Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2008 at 22:36
Ya, is not John in the NT?
Also to expand on the Luther additions that I was first alluding to, it was Romans 3:28(NT) whereby Luther added in the word "allein"-alone-, So whereby it reads "faith alone". This put his addition in direct conflict with the Epistle of James, more precisely James 2:24, which reads, "By works a man is justified, and not only by faith." Martin Luther responded by calling The Epistle of James an "epistle of straw" and the Pope a "papstesel"-Pope donkeys-
Just giving a few NT examples, either way this seems a lil off topic so I will rest here. What is the main point of this topic anyway?
 I sensed some small biased undertones coming from the original poster.
 Just kiddin with ya Omar! ------------- Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King. |