Print Page | Close Window

The Animal Versus Thread!

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Natural History
Forum Discription: History viewed through ecology, geology, paleoclimatology, paleontology & zoology to assist in understanding earth's history
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22783
Printed Date: 25-Nov-2017 at 06:33
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: The Animal Versus Thread!
Posted By: Adalwolf
Subject: The Animal Versus Thread!
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 20:30
Inspired by the Shark vs Crocodile thread. Pic two animals and see what everyone on AE thinks would win between them!

I'll start.

Lion vs Tiger?




-------------
Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
     Edward Abbey



Replies:
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 20:36
Lion whoot

it's bigger eventhough the Tiger is more aggile depends on the surrounding i think


-------------
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 23:28
Wow thanks, I never knew my topic would have such an impression Embarrassed. I am going to have to go with the lion. The brute force of the animal is enough to steal victory.


-------------
What is the officer problem?


Posted By: Panther
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 01:16
Uh-oh... I'll just say the Siberian Tiger and leave it at that!
 
 


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 01:36
I was going to say that there are already two Lion vs. Tiger threads, but oh well, the more the better! Let me just say, I am a fervent tiger supporter Wink

When it comes down to the hard facts and physical and behavioural adaptations that would prove advantageous over the other, the tiger comes out on top.
 
Let's compare basic statistics:
 
African Lion
Weight - Up to 220kg (Male)
Speed - 75kph (Probably 70kph max for a male)
Adaptations - large mane to look imposing as well as to protect vital organs in the neck and head, plus the typical shared characteristics with tigers - long, sharp canines, retractile claws, bulk, large batting paws.etc.
Typical prey - Wildebeest, Cape Buffalo, Zebra

Tiger
Some subspecies: Siberian Tiger- Up to 350kg and 2.5 - 3m long
Bengal Tiger - Up to 230kg and 3m long
Sumatran Tiger - About 120kg and up to 2.4m long
Adaptations - Speed (70kph), superb jumping ability due to enhanced hind leg muscles, longest canines of all cats, huge paws, powerful front legs for pulling when running, and taking down prey single-handedly, paralytic roar.
Typical Prey - Deer, Water Buffalo, Wild Pig
 
Now if we compare those statistics we discover that the tiger, overall is larger and more agile than a typical male lion (this of course is open to variation). With the protection of the mane comes reduced maneuverability and extra baggage. One particular thing that would probably prove the edge for the tiger is the extremely powerful forelimbs it has. They are used for pulling the tiger forward in pursuit and are necessary for taking down large prey. Their agility would also be a major factor.
 
Upon seeing a tiger fight in the wild, one realises that they fight in a very different fashion to male lions. While lions tend to bat at each other and try to claw each others faces, also trying to get a bite to the others back or neck, tigers have a much more fierce and tiring approach to conflict. tigers wrestle like house cats, locking together and rolling around in a frenzy in an attempt to tire, claw, shred and tear at the other. While lion fights end in death rarely, tiger fights are responsible for a much higher percentage of male tiger's deaths (and in some cases, females).
 
My conclusion is that the tiger would cause fatal wounds to the lion, but in doing so cop several nasty lacerations itself. The tiger would win, while the lion would die. The combination of agility, raw power and muscular strength and size would be on the tiger's side.
 
Note: In India's Gir Forest, the last refuge of Asiatic lions in the world,tigers have been known to have killed the tigers in fights.

Another area of variation is between tiger species. While a Siberian tiger tends to weight at least 100kg more, and possess much more power, the lion still has a chance against smaller subspecies. The Bengal Tiger averages at about 200kg (males) or just under. This is roughly the same, if not a tad less, than the typical male African Lion. On the other hand though, the Sumatran and South China Tiger's are both a fair bit smaller than the lion, 100kg and 150kg approx. respectively.
Regardless, assuming each weighed approximately the same, I'm betting on the tiger. This is contrary to discovery channel who actually made a show dedicated to animal face-offs. The lion vs. tiger one, in my opinion, is ludicrous. However, this show has a tendency towards giving the tiger the raw end of the deal - it gets beaten by every animal it faces off against!
See: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDh93IB_nts/[url]

Keep in mind though that I wouldn't be surprised if the Lion pulled off a victory. A lot of it has to do with initial positioning and first blow.

Ave  Panthera tigris!

- Knights -


-------------


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 09:22
tiger hands down, (maybe not if its from SE Asia)


Posted By: Adalwolf
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 11:06
I would also vote for the tiger, because of old black and white vids on youtube...

-------------
Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
     Edward Abbey


Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 23:13
the control factor would be where the fight would take place; if the lion decides to go to siberia and face the siberian tiger, then it is going to be a one way trip.

-------------




Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2007 at 23:30
One way trip.  I liked that.

I reckon bengal tiger would beat a lion nevermind a siberian.

here's another video where cruel Koreans pit the animals against each other.


-------------


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 08:00
I think general consensus here sees the Tiger beating the Lion. Can we move onto a new face-off?

How about...Mongoose vs. Egyptian Cobra

The Mongoose would easily take out the Cobra, seeing as they naturally hunt them. Mongooses have incredible reflexes, enabling them to deal with the breakneck strikes of snakes. There are conflicting sources on the net about Mongooses and immunity to snake venom. Some say that they aren't, full stop. Others say they are, or have to eat the snake and then are immune. Not having done any experiments of my own, my personal guess is that a Mongoose could not be immune to all (if some) types of venom, such as haemotoxins, neurotoxins and cardiotoxins, but rather have resistance to some. That's just my opinion - I might look into it more now.

- Knights -


-------------


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2007 at 06:27
Komodo Dragon vs. Cougar

I'd go with the cougar, but who knows. Biological comparisons between animals are not my forte.

Another interesting one might be Polar bear vs. Saltwater crocodile. Either one can kill a human without thinking twice, both are extremely big and well-armored...




-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Sun Tzu
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2007 at 13:07
eh Cougars are pretty fast, bust you don't wan't to get bitten by a Komodo dragon, you get infected and if its not clean you can die. The Cougar would prolly kill the lizard, but if the lizard got away with a bite, then the Cougar would be in big trouble.

-------------
Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu


Posted By: AlbinoAlien
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2007 at 18:58
komodo dragon, hands down. Those teeth are vicious, and i think the komodos have the most diseased bacteria filled teeth that anything they bite into dies within days anyway.
So either beyond the grave, or above it, the komodo wins!


-------------
people are the emotions of other people


(im not albino..or pale!)

.....or an alien..


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2007 at 19:11
Komodo dragon: Septicemia from the GRAVE!!

Cougar: Bite and scratch ftw!

Seems kind of one-sided...I wonder how the komodo would do against something bigger, like a jaguar.

Similarly, actually. Would probably die, then inflict nasty infections from the grave.

Poison, Disease, and Infections: The great scale-balancers...


-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2007 at 06:25
^^ A good observation, can't remember the exact toxins the komodos have but one bite and its adios for whatever animal its fighting.
 
Wow, take some time off from the natural history sub-forum and its when animal vs. animal threads attack.Wink
 
Polar Bear versus Saltwater Crocodile, now that is a thinker.  My instincts point to the croc because of superior size, especially if its in the water.  Now if this encounter (have to be because of remarkably incompetent zoo keepers or something, unless polar bears really start swimming a ways for food) took place on land then the polar bear has a chance, though I think its still a small one.  Even if it gets in behind the croc, whats it going to do?  I would be suprised if it could even break the skin of the crocs armored back.  Think of the effort to kill walrus', compared to saltwater crocodiles... not good.


-------------
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann



Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2007 at 12:43
1. The Komodo Dragon would win. The Cougar would have a very hard time penetrating its tough hide. Also, we all know that the venom and bacteria in a Komodo bite will kill the Cougar over time, a bite from it can also cause serious blood loss and other very short term injuries.

2. The Saltwater Crocodile would win both in water, and most probably on land. In water the Bear has no chance, but if on land it can get a few good bites to the neck. Here are three strategies that I think would work exceptionally:
- if the Croc's belly is exposed, rapid bites and scratches could do a lot of damage indeed
- eyes are a weak point, and if gouged will debilitate the Crocodile
- somehow biting off the legs would leave the Croc immobile and vulnerable to the more agile Bear
In fact, I'm starting to make myself think that if a Polar Bear took heed of that advice, it would win!


-------------


Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2007 at 13:07
The SpiderPig beats any animal mentioned in previous posts due to its unique skill set.



Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2007 at 18:50
Amen to that.

Jaguar vs. Lion

might seem one-sided, but jaguars have possibly the strongest bite of all big cats. They swim well, hunt caimans and smaller anacondas (sometimes), and they're not THAT much smaller than a lion.




-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2007 at 00:11
Jaguars can weigh up to about 160kg. Lionesses are usually around that weight. I've never heard the claim that Jaguars have the strongest bite, but it isn't too far fetched seeing as rather than grasping the windpipe (neck) of its prey, the Jaguar inserts its canines into the skull, penetrating and paralysing the victim. That must take some serious jaw strength. Nonetheless, the superior size and armourment of a lion (mane - are we assuming two fully grown males are battling it out?) would prevail over the stockier but all round smaller Jaguar.

As is usual with these, environment is a variable one must consider. While the Jaguar may have a slight advantage in swampy/wetland areas, I don't think this would tip the odds too much. Lions can go in water, and can fight in water, its just that they usually prefer not to.

As a side note, I think one of the most extreme cat-cat face off would be the Jaguar and the Leopard.

- Knights -


-------------


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2007 at 07:23
That would indeed be fairly high on the extreme scale.




-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2007 at 07:24
What do you think the outcome would be?

-------------


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2007 at 07:29
Not my area of expertise, but at a guess, I'd say jaguar. Leopards are more agile, true, but Jaguar seems to have bite strength and physical mass in it's favor. However, it'd be close. They're fairly even, and not horribly different even in those two areas. And those don't make a sure thing.


-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2007 at 07:44
Silverfish vs, Goldfish ?
 
 


-------------

http://imageshack.us">


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2007 at 08:00
Goldfish definitely. Such agility and strength!

-------------


Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2007 at 12:11
Originally posted by Knights

Goldfish definitely. Such agility and strength!
 
Don't underrate the Lepisma saccharina


-------------

http://imageshack.us">


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2007 at 14:02
The problem here in the Lions and Tigers sketch comes from the fact that while tigers are solitary predators, the lions are not and practice agression in terms of the pride. Chances are if you see one lion there are several others you don't see and a tiger would probably react in terms of the old adage, discretion is the better part of valor.

-------------


Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2007 at 15:07
German Shepherd




vs.



Turkish Angora



Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2007 at 22:41
I Vote for the kitteh.

-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Adalwolf
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 19:11
The dog would eat that cat in a second. 

-------------
Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
     Edward Abbey


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 19:35
never underestimate the power of claws vs. highly sensitive muzzle.

-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 23:35
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9EMsXuZUWWs - http://youtube.com/watch?v=9EMsXuZUWWs
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AGiNjsXN9Nc - http://youtube.com/watch?v=AGiNjsXN9Nc


-------------


Posted By: Penelope
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 06:37

i must say that i have witnessed the Turkish Angora kick many dogs asses. However, none of those dogs were a German Shepherd, but that still doesnt rule it out.



Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 07:44
I'd like to see a dog like the German Shepherd take on a cat actually. Which cat? Maybe a Liger...

-------------


Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 07:49
Depends on the personality of cat and dog.  I'm sure most of us have seen a tiny dog make a large one run away.  Its always amusing to watch. 
 
If the german sheperd is not a coward the cat's odds are poor.  If the sheperd catches the cat that is.  The shepherd would kill the cat in that instance but the damage the cat inflicts on the its face could be great; eyes, forementioned nose region etc.
 
Edit:  just saw knights post.LOL  I think the odds may sway a tad from dog to cat in that match up.


-------------
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann



Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 07:55
True. Cats should not be underestimated. I was once walking a Cocker Spaniel - it ran into some bushes to attack a cat in there, next moment I heard it yelping, then it came running out with the cat chasing it. Turns out it avoided major injury, but I think it's safe to say that the cat whooped its ass!
The arched back, erect hairs, teeth showing, claws out and snarling defensive threat of a cat can be very offputting to dogs, and most will retreat in order to avoid injury.


-------------


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 11:07
years ago, when I resided in Miami Shores, I had two cats while my neighbor had two rotweilers. One of my cats, Chat, liked to sun himself on the wall that divided our properties. The Rots usually left it alone, but one day one would not let up on the barking and leaping at the cat on his perch...suddenly there was a yowling hiss followed by a chorus of whining yelps: the cat had sprung on the rot and was doing an imitation of a bronco buster as the dog went spinning all across his backyard! After a few minutes, the cat leaped off the dog's back and skeddadled through the grates of the front gate. From that day onwards the dogs never again made any moves or sounds at the cats, who continued their sunning ways.

-------------


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 11:38
Haha!LOL Point proven.

-------------


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 22:35
I'm trying to think of a good opponent for a colossal squid. Other than a giant squid, which would probably lose because it's weaker, has fewer hooks or claws, and only has the advantage of reach, or a sperm whale, which probably would win because it's built for hunting squid, I can't think of any good ones.


any suggestions from the eminent scholars of this forum?


-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 00:28
Eminent scholars arise!

I think a Sperm Whale could take out a Colossal Squid, as well as an Orca.


-------------


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 01:08
yes, which is why I'm trying to think of a better matchup than whale vs. squid. ending? whale wins. although an orca would have a lot less of a chance.

-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 01:22
There are so many dogs who can kill a cat in an instant.

In my opinion, in most cases the dogs are there to socialize (wagging their tales, trying to sniff the bottom of the cat...etc) while the cat is seriously trying to protect itself. If a (big) dog seriously went for the cat, I would say that the cat is more likely to get killed.

I knew a cat who used to terrorize the friendly neighbourhood dogs all the time, but one day a visitor brought her Doberman to the area. The dog seriously went for the cat. The cat ran away and was saved by a passing car that just happened to pass between the running cat and the chasing dog. Otherwise it would have been ripped in to pieces by the dog.

I also knew a person who had an Akita dog. I walked the massive dog one day. It was really hard just to stop her from leaping at other animals such as cats and other dogs. Every time she was going to attack, I could actually see it coming because the gigantic body would suddenly become motionless and very low on the ground. The next moment she would leap from the ground with such a powerful force that l had to tie and wrap her leash around my upper arms so many times to make her jump as small as possible, and had to kneel on the ground with my whole weight as well just to stop myself from being sent flying after her. If I had let her, she would have killed a cat in an instant. These dogs are known for killing bears, as well as for being one of the most ancient dog breeds in the world.

Regarding the battles between animals, how about the sloth vs slow loris vs cameleon vs tortoise? Which one of them do you think can run a hundred meters faster?


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 07:46
Slow Loris definitely. Lorises are very comical little creatures indeed. Though the Loris may tend to move around slowly for stealth, it has the potential to move at faster speeds. This is the case for the Chameleon too - I used to chase them as a child in Mauritius. In regards to the Sloth and Tortoise; even if they want to, they can't move very fast.

So my bet is on the Loris.


-------------


Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2008 at 01:54
Here are some more interesting animal battle links...
 
Jaguar vs Anaconda

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w75U7wueU_Q&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w75U7wueU_Q&feature=related  
 
Hippopotamus vs Shark
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmujY5xPXJM&NR=1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmujY5xPXJM&NR=1


-------------
What is the officer problem?


Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2008 at 01:00
I have trouble believing that Hippo/shark one.  The hippo is going to get attacked by a shark and for over a minute its going to yell in the air and not MOVE? 

-------------
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann



Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2008 at 01:34
I was thinking that. I have voiced my opposition to Animal Face-Off (the programme), but it's fun to watch. In the first one, snakes, if harmed in any way when trying to kill their prey, will retreat. Though this Anaconda seems to be the exception...Big%20smile

I think a Jaguar could defeat an Anaconda.


-------------


Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 23:47
I checked out the "Akita" and it doesnt seem to be a very big dog.


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 03:03
Originally posted by Knights

I was thinking that. I have voiced my opposition to Animal Face-Off (the programme), but it's fun to watch. In the first one, snakes, if harmed in any way when trying to kill their prey, will retreat. Though this Anaconda seems to be the exception...Big%20smile

I think a Jaguar could defeat an Anaconda.


Depends, as it does with many fights, who strikes first. Jaguars sometimes kill them, I believe, but normally it's similar to how occasionally a jaguar will kill a cayman. It's probably one of the smaller ones, and it's not a regular thing.

Anaconda: Incredible amounts of muscle, enough to literally CRUSH prey rather than just suffocating it. Thick, tough. hard to really hurt-anacondas are like the bears of the snake world. It can take a LOT to seriously injure them. Reasonably-sized teeth. Excellent ambush predator.

Jaguar:Good amount of muscle. VERY strong bite-can actually pierce prey's skulls to kill them (instead of suffocating them with it's jaws), which is sort of a rarity. Five of it's six ends are pointy, whereas an anaconda has only one sharp end. Excellent ambush predator, although less effective in water.

I would say that in a full-on fight, the anaconda would win. It might get mortally injured, but it's unlikely it would be killed outright, and if the injury wasn't one of those terrible wounds (like one to the heart, vital innards, etc.) then it probably would survive. From what I've heard, a lot of reptiles heal fairly fast and don't get infections easily. I KNOW crocodiles are like that, at least.


-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 03:11
True. I have bias for felines Wink

You know what would be interesting: Giant Anteater vs. Jaguar.

Jaguars have been found dead in the grasp of Giant Anteaters on the Patagonian Pampas before...scary. GA's have incredible strong forelimbs and shoulders, as well as HUGE claws, intended for use in destroying and storming termite mounds. However, this purpose could easily revert to defending oneself from a Jaguar!


-------------


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 06:08
Regarding the Lion vs. Tiger issue - here's a site I came across. It's a very interesting read, and he makes a sound conclusion in the end in my opinion.

http://indrajit.wordpress.com/category/lion-vs-tiger/ - http://indrajit.wordpress.com/category/lion-vs-tiger/


-------------


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 08:09
Originally posted by Knights

Regarding the Lion vs. Tiger issue - here's a site I came across. It's a very interesting read, and he makes a sound conclusion in the end in my opinion.

http://indrajit.wordpress.com/category/lion-vs-tiger/ - http://indrajit.wordpress.com/category/lion-vs-tiger/



That is the most awesome and in-depth analysis of this important issue I've ever seen.


New matchup: Harpy Eagle vs. Flamingo


-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 08:11
Harpy Eagle all the way.

What about a Harpy Eagle vs. Steller's Sea Eagle?

(That Lion vs. Tiger thing was excellent wasn't it?)


-------------


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 08:52
my opinion, jaguar should have the power advantage over the leopard. It does have a  stronger bite. But there is much variation in both species weight...


... I always thought cats, pound for pound, are more lethal than dogs.

So a interesting match up, maybe a Eurasian lynx vs wolf?



Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 09:16
Grey Wolf: 60kg (max), hunts prey up to 10 times its own size (but in packs), larger and stronger than Lynx

Eurasian Lynx: 40kg (max), hunts ungulates up to 4 times its own size, agile, faster than a Wolf

If the need and opportunity arose, the Lynx could flee the situation. However, if locked in combat, I think the Wolf would win. They have both size and strength on their side. While the Lynx's retractile claws could do some serious damage, the crushing jaws of a Wolf could demobilise a Lynx in an instant.

Wow. I actually went with a dog over a cat! Shocked Oh well, African Hunting Dogs do happen to be one of my favourite animals.


-------------


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 09:26
hey knights, long time ago i read that gelada and baboons males sometimes fight it out, now i cant find nothing on the web. you heard of this?


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 09:40
Baboons, especially the Olive Baboon can be very aggressive both to members of their troop or anything that threatens their troop. Male Baboons definitely have violent bouts over their harem of females. You'd know that Baboons have huge canines, and strong shoulders, so their battles can get very nasty.

Geladas are a similar case. For those who do not know what Geladas are, they are ground dwelling, grazing (meaning they eat grass, rather than browsers which eat leaves) primates similar to Baboons. They inhabit the Ethiopian Highlands, and can reach 20kg. Geladas live in monumental groups, 100's strong, and just plow their way across meadows. These huge groups aren't completely cohesive though, and are rather made up of smaller harems, headed by a male. Now, lone males are always on the look out for a harem of females, and group together to form bachelor troops. They basically go about trying to usurp harems. At first, the harem males and the bachelors size each other up, accompanied by intense 'lip-flipping' to reveal the giant canines. If this does not put one side off, a fight ensues, where it's effectively an all in brawl, with the victor obtaining/retaining control of the harem.

Pretty hectic. The latter behaviour (the geladas) is actually displayed on Episode 9 (Social Climbers) of Life of Mammals.

Regards,

- Knights -


-------------


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 09:53
yeah but groups of each species attacking each other?

i think its Gelada in Ethiopia and the hamydras (sp?) baboon.

which take me to my next vs, termites and ants (africa)




Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 11:12
I can imagine there being the odd conflict between Hamadryas Baboons and Geladas, seeing as they do both live in Ethiopia. I haven't heard of any particular cases though. Hamadryas aren't the largest Baboons (I think Chacmas are), so may be similar sized to the Geladas - making for an interesting face off.

Regarding Ants vs. Termites, Ants all the way - they have specific individuals as dedicated soldiers, and have the advantage of larger pincers and a sting of formic acid.


-------------


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 11:48
you know im still not convinced the wolf owns a lynx yet.

 i just read in wiki that the Canadian lynx can prey on the coyote. 


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 11:56
Really? Which article? I was looking, and read on the Coyote one that they sometimes prey upon the Lynxes...

I still think the superior size and strength of the Wolf would prevail. Having an elongated muzzle is advantageous when trying to bite, which the Wolf has over the Lynx. What do you think?


-------------


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 12:03
The wolf has the better bite and stamina ( i assume we talking the grey wolf) but a good size lynx, to the death or protecting the young, can come up with the goods.

wolves are pack animals they're greatest advantage is their social network.

its an interesting fight, they fight differently have different strengths. I would certainly like to find some examples or stories.




Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 12:15
its says they kill or prey coyotes in this article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Lynx

but i cant find a proper source to back it up.

if the lynx is to small i would normally call in something bigger, the clouded leopard. But then it would be too unequal the other way.




Posted By: Jams
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 19:45
The Canadian lynx is (usually) smaller than the Eurasian lynx, and the Euro-lynx normally hunt much larger prey - mostly they prey on roe deer and reindeer!
 
And the clouded leopard is much smaller than the Eurasian lynx! So it won't help!!


-------------


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 23:12
I think the smallest cat that could beat a Wolf would be a Snow Leopard. I don't think a Cheetah could do it, they are in fact very ill-fit for any form of fighting, and don't have the main advantage of a cat - fully retractile claws. 

-------------


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 09:32
the cheetah is piss weak


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 09:39
In other words, yes. Tongue Cheetahs are built for one thing: running. 

-------------


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 06:11
Yes, and antelopes are notoriously small and inoffensive, as prey goes.

At least compared to something like an elk.


-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 09:28
Have you seen the footage of a mother Thompson Gazelle (smaller than an adult cheetah) turn around and attack the pursuing Cheetah? It's crazy, it keeps charging and before long the Cheetah retreats. In saying that though, Cheetahs aren't all I've made them out to be - they are known to take down prey up to 4 or 5 times their size, independently. It's just that they are at the mercy of most other Savannah predators; Lions, Hyenas, Leopards, African Hunting Dogs and even Jackals. 

-------------


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 10:56
jackals? surely not one on one


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 11:11
No not one on one, but Jackals tend to live in cohesive family groups, of 2 parents and offspring. They are very tenacious and hardy things too! 

-------------


Posted By: ckukner
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 18:03
Angoran Cat would tear the wolf apart. Cats still believe they are lions or tigers or such. So they attack ferociously whereas wolfs are almost afraid of everything if they outnumber the thing.

-------------
Galatasaray Uefa Cup 2000 Winner


Posted By: Julius Augustus
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 18:18
leopard is probably the most tactical animal in the cat family, the animal knows when to attack, how to attack, if to attack, hide and etc. 


Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 01:09
Hippo vs Tiger?

-------------
What is the officer problem?


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 03:11
Originally posted by JUliusAugustus

leopard is probably the most tactical animal in the cat family, the animal knows when to attack, how to attack, if to attack, hide and etc. 

Interesting remark Julius. I'm not so sure I agree - what does the leopard have over any other cat in the department of ambush (when, how if..etc)?

@ Darius: Hippo would have the upper hand over even a Siberian Tiger. Especially in the water.


-------------


Posted By: Julius Augustus
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2008 at 00:44
Originally posted by Knights

Originally posted by JUliusAugustus

leopard is probably the most tactical animal in the cat family, the animal knows when to attack, how to attack, if to attack, hide and etc. 

Interesting remark Julius. I'm not so sure I agree - what does the leopard have over any other cat in the department of ambush (when, how if..etc)?

@ Darius: Hippo would have the upper hand over even a Siberian Tiger. Especially in the water.


@ Knights

it surveys the land, the Leopard is a patient cat, it uses all terrains to its fullest, take for example that it is the only big cat that can climb a tree, it uses the the tree as a means of stealth, no other big cat can use this, another reason is that, from all the animals in the African jungle, the great Leopard is the hardest to spot, a Cheetah can be sighted making chase, a Lion hunting deer and etc but the Leopard, it takes time before you can find one, it hides, not like a coward but like a tactical animal. It took me awhile to spot one, it knows that man is its greatest hunter.

another example is that during the 50's to 60's, the leopard's numbers dwindled, but now even though pouching is a given, its number have increased because of proper use of terrain, its stealth capabilities and etc. another reasons is that the Leopard, from my experience being in Africa for awhile goes to the source of water, all other animals go to the rivers, there are water stations in reserves, the Leopard goes directly to the water station, amazing I must say, I was astonished to see this, I think they showed this as well in national geographic.

The Leopard knows when to run away, Ive seen it run away from a Hyena, a single Hyena knowing that Hyena has back up coming soon, a Lion even alone would have fought the Hyena and be ensnared  into the trap. It reads things to its fullest.

@Darius

depends on terrain, the advantage, most people keep forgetting, is that when you have full knowledge of terrain, if it is home terf, victory is always almost certain.

Hippo, is probably stronger than any Tiger out there. Tiger is faster, hard to say, but Hippo wins all fights in water while in land Tiger and Hippo have a 50 50 chance depending on location.


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 05:15
Originally posted by Julius Augustus

Originally posted by Knights

Originally posted by JUliusAugustus

leopard is probably the most tactical animal in the cat family, the animal knows when to attack, how to attack, if to attack, hide and etc. 

Interesting remark Julius. I'm not so sure I agree - what does the leopard have over any other cat in the department of ambush (when, how if..etc)?


@ Knights

it surveys the land, the Leopard is a patient cat, it uses all terrains to its fullest, take for example that it is the only big cat that can climb a tree, it uses the the tree as a means of stealth, no other big cat can use this, another reason is that, from all the animals in the African jungle, the great Leopard is the hardest to spot, a Cheetah can be sighted making chase, a Lion hunting deer and etc but the Leopard, it takes time before you can find one, it hides, not like a coward but like a tactical animal. It took me awhile to spot one, it knows that man is its greatest hunter.


I can see where you are coming from. The Leopard is a very patient animal, but in comparison to other cats, there is little difference. Cats, being ambush/stealth predators have to be patient - it is a part of their nature. The Leopard of course is just a fine example of this. What do you mean by 'big cat'? If you are strictly referring to Pantherines, then Jaguars commonly climb trees, and Tigers and Lions are both capable of it. It is definitely true that few cats can equal the climbing skill of the leopard, let alone any other "Big Cats". No other Big Cat hunts by dropping from trees, because each hunts in a unique way. The Lion is a predominantly 'team' hunter, the Cheetah uses speed and agility, and the Tiger uses ambush on a new level combined with raw power.
Just because a Leopard hunts in a more secretive manner doesn't necessarily mean it is more tactical. If any cat is the most 'tactical' in terms of hunting, it would be the lion because of the 'team work' they use. (Note: the extent of collaborative teamwork in a lion hunt is not believed to be as cohesive as once thought). Nonetheless, they still use team tactics, and are thus one of the more successful cat hunters. Team work is a good indication of tactical hunting, and is generally more successful - take the most successful Mammalian predator for example, the African Hunting Dog.
The reason leopards do not intentionally steer clear of humans is not because they have an innate instinct that says humans are superior (though this is the case sometimes, as with other cats), but because of the inherently more secretive and nocturnal habits.

Originally posted by Julius Augustus

another example is that during the 50's to 60's, the leopard's numbers dwindled, but now even though pouching is a given, its number have increased because of proper use of terrain, its stealth capabilities and etc. another reasons is that the Leopard, from my experience being in Africa for awhile goes to the source of water, all other animals go to the rivers, there are water stations in reserves, the Leopard goes directly to the water station, amazing I must say, I was astonished to see this, I think they showed this as well in national geographic.

The Leopard knows when to run away, Ive seen it run away from a Hyena, a single Hyena knowing that Hyena has back up coming soon, a Lion even alone would have fought the Hyena and be ensnared  into the trap. It reads things to its fullest.


Leopards are undoubtedly very intelligent and adaptable creatures. This is evident by the fact that it the largest ranging cat on earth (other than domestic cats of course). Its ability to be resourceful, along with its more secretive nature, have meant it rarely comes into contact with humans. With only 20,000 or so Lions remaining in Africa, Leopards (as you said) are flourishing, estimated at over 200,000! This success if based on their adaptive and resourceful habits rather than solely their tactical adeptness. So in all honesty, I am pretty much agreeing with you that the Leopard is the most successful Big Cat, just not that it is the most 'tactical'.

That was rather long winded, but this is my passion - that's my excuse Big%20smile

Regards,

- Knights -


-------------


Posted By: Julius Augustus
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 23:09
good points Knight, I should have been more specific in stating that the Leopard as an individual was most tactical, forgot about the Panther and the Jaguar, should have not concentrated in the African Jungle.



Posted By: Julius Augustus
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 00:54
here is mine, a hard one to boot

Monkey Eating Eagle versus the bald eagle


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 08:41
Interesting one.

Let's weigh up the facts:

Bald Eagle

Length - 71 to 96cm
Weight - 3 to 6.5kg
Feeding habits - typically fish, sometimes small mammals or may pirate from other birds of prey

Harpy Eagle

Length - 89 to 100cm
Weight - 4 to 9kg
Feeding habits - kills on the wing monkeys, birds and sloths

Philippine Eagle

Length - 86 to 100cm
Weight - 4.5 to 8kg
Feeding habits - hunts monkeys in a similar fashion to the Harpy

So just based on those statistics, I'd say the 'Monkey-eating' eagles would have the advantage. Other possible choices could be the Crowned and Martial Eagles.

Though if it came down to it between any of the birds I mentioned, I would give it to the Harpy. They are immensely powerful birds, with huge talons. Their sheer bulk and power would be enough to overwhelm any other eagle mentioned.

Of course, some non-monkeys eating Eagles could pose a challenge -
1) Lammergeier
2) Steller's Sea Eagle
3) Condor

These too are very large and strong birds, but don't prey upon monkeys.

Regards,

- Knights -


-------------


Posted By: Julius Augustus
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 14:16
knights that is amazing, gotta give you kudos for your research.




Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 04:43
What about some kind of large Monitor Lizard vs. a crocodile of equal size (on land.) The croc would have significantly tougher hide, and a stronger bite. The monitor would be stronger (monitors are stronger pound for pound than crocdiles or alligators.) and faster, and would probably be smarter as well--but the croc's tough hide and bite strength would be tough to take on.





-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 04:58
So say, a Perentie against a Freshwater crocodile of the same length? The Crocodile has the advantage in defence, while the Perentie would be a more powerful attacker. On land though, I'm tempted to say the Perentie would come off best.

If it was a Komodo, things would be a bit more easily settled.
 
Regardless, as is the case most of the time, it depends on prior situation, location and gets the first and last word.
 
- Knights -


-------------


Posted By: Panther
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 21:26
Originally posted by Julius Augustus

knights that is amazing, gotta give you kudos for your research.
 
I've learned the quality of his research is top notch. Saves me the trouble of doing it myself. Embarrassed
 
 His knowledge of Pantherines astounded me from the first time we had discussed the subject. Knights deserves some type of global award for brilliance!
 
 


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 21:58
For something on the lighter side of these battles...
 
- A swarm of killer bees versus homo erectus beekeeperus.
 
Weaponology:
 Bees - Stinger protuberance intended to maim, sting and kill. High speed aerial attack. Multiple divisions attacking in unison.
 
 Homoerectus Beekeeperus - Noxious sprays, ambush the bees into a safe haven. Defensively a good shielded system via protective garments.


-------------


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 05:03
Thanks guys Embarrassed I try...


I think Seko's Homoerectus beekeeperus (if that's referring to a modern apiarist) would easily take down the bees. Their attacks would be futile to the protective garments of erectus, and the noxious spray would be the end of the killer bees!

Ok how about this one:

Mantis Shrimp vs. Coneshell

- Knights -


-------------


Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 05:08

The Coneshell would. It has a harpoon that can cause paralysis and can even kill humans.



-------------
What is the officer problem?


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 05:10
But the question is, do you know the true power of the Mantis Shrimp? Would you like a brief rundown on its weaponry?

-------------


Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 05:15

I would like to see an overview. I have heard of Mantis Shrimps breaking through glass, is this true?



-------------
What is the officer problem?


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 05:31
It certainly is true about the glass. Mantis Shrimps have been known break out of home aquariums, and give nasty punches to unsuspecting divers who try to touch them!

The 'raptorial' claw of the Mantis shrimp is positioned with ligaments in a similar fashion to an onager or catapult. Because sheer muscle power cannot generate sufficient energy, several tiers of joints are spring loaded and then released. The result is amazing.

There are two types of raptorial claw - spear shaped, which is designed for impaling and stabbing prey, and club shaped, for just bashing the victim.

I've done a lot of reading lately into the nature of the "punch" of the Mantis Shrimp, and it is one of the coolest animals! The claw is released, accelerating over 20 meters per second, and over 10,000 Gs. At such breakneck speeds, a cavitation bubble is formed, due to excessive kinetic energy. In this, the bubble is formed within the huge volume of surrounding water. Heat and Light energy are produced in this bubble again from the kinetic energy, and heat and light are produced (sonoluminescence). The temperature of this minute bubble can reach several thousand degrees celsius. Though almost instantaneously, the mass of water collapses the bubble, creating an ultrasonic 'boom' of sorts.

So not only does the prey get struck/stabbed by the claw itself, but a following shockwave from the collapsing cavitation bubble stuns the prey.

The "Clubbing" Mantis Shrimp specialises in bashing hermit crabs, shells and other shelled/exoskeleton organisms. This is why I suggested it be pitted against the formidable coneshell, which as well as just a defensive shell, has a terribly effective offense.

In terms of defense for the Mantis, its tail is reinforced greatly, as a means of protection from other Mantis Shrimps during mating ritual. They curl the tail in front of them as a form of protection, and one could employ this strategy to a coneshell.

What do you think?


-------------


Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 05:44
I had the idea that the coneshell could react in double time. Is this true? I guess it comes down to which animal is faster in its attack or if the Mantis Shrimp uses hit and run tactics.

-------------
What is the officer problem?


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 05:46
Yeh, the Mantis Shrimp is far more agile and fast than the Coneshell, so it has many more tactical options. However if the Cone gets a hit, bye bye Mantis Shrimp! What exactly do you mean by react in double time?

-------------


Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 05:52

Is the Coneshell fast? Also, is the harpoon retractable?



-------------
What is the officer problem?


Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 05:59
The cone's harpoon is a modification of the radula, which is a weird hybrid of a throat. The harpoon specifically is fired by muscle contractions in the proboscis, and is hollow. Before each firing, it is injected with the neurotoxin venom. When fired, the harpoon strikes prey, and is slowly reeled in for consumption.
So, the actual firing of the harpoon itself is very rapid, but it has to be filled with venom before firing (which is why cones are patience/ambush predators), and is one shot only (because of the very slow retraction time, and the fact that it sticks into the victim generally).


-------------


Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 07-May-2008 at 03:48

I guess it depends who gets the first punch.



-------------
What is the officer problem?


Posted By: Darius of Parsa
Date Posted: 07-May-2008 at 03:50

A rhinoceros against a hippopotamus?



-------------
What is the officer problem?


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 17:50
Maybe it's too late for the coneshell/mantis shrimp discussion, but I'm not sure anyone asked the obvious question; what is the penetrating power of a cone snail's harpoon?

After all, there's no guarantee it could even break through the mantis shrimp's shell, unless it found a joint, is there?


-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Jams
Date Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 13:05
Originally posted by Leonidas

you know im still not convinced the wolf owns a lynx yet.

 i just read in wiki that the Canadian lynx can prey on the coyote. 
 
That depends on what "preying on the coyote" means. Perhaps they can catch some cubs, or a dying old lone wolf, but taking on a prime coyote, I don't think so. Predators of equal size usually try to avoid each other, and confrontations are largely ritualistic; most animals don't want to fight to death or serious injury for no reason.
 
I'm not saying it never happens, but surely a coyote isn't a "prey item" for the Canadian lynx - any more than lynx is a prey item for the coyote.
 
Ps. Many of those animal vs fights that are on youtube are more or less staged. Especially those from certain old documetaries, that just happened "by chance" to come up upon several highly unusual animal fights, that audiences would like to see - and all in the same "documentary."
 
Just like those old Disney doc's about suicidal lemmings, that were also completely fake.
 
That kind of "documentaries" made in a certain era are just fictional entertainment.


-------------


Posted By: Tyranos
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 05:37
How about man vs Mammoth or Sabertooth Tiger ? That I would like to see occur, and if it was possible to take them down back then. 

-------------


Posted By: TheARRGH
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 05:56
Originally posted by Tyranos

How about man vs Mammoth or Sabertooth Tiger ? That I would like to see occur, and if it was possible to take them down back then. 


Man vs. Sabertooth is JUST possible for the man to win if he has a weapon, or is extremely strong, clever, and has a handy cliff to push the sabertooth off.

man vs. mammoth...

you'd need several men and they'd all have to be armed. Then quite possibly. Best weapons for the job would be spearthrowers. If need be, normal javelins would do.


-------------
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche



Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 05:31
We've all heard about the Mongoose and the venomous Cobra - the Mongoose is usually to agile and eventually finishes off the snake. However, I've never thought about what would happen between a non-venomous snake and a Mongoose. Would there be much of a different approach on the part of either? 

-------------


Posted By: Arkhanson
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2008 at 06:58
well I wanna bet on chewbacca for the wookies againsts alien Big%20smileClown
 
uhm for real life grey wolf versus jackal or coyote


-------------



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com