...... just move to Saudi Arabia and experience the real thing. One wonders how such a primitive country run by such people can be allowed to be such a close by western politicians......

 

Saudi foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal described publicising this an outrage.......

 

 

 

My harrowing story, by

the teenage girl who was

sentenced to 200 lashes

after being gang raped in

 Saudi Arabia

By RICHARD PENDLEBURY - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/dmsearch/overture.html?in_page_id=711&in_overture_ua=cat&in_start_number=0&in_restriction=byline&in_query=richard%20pendlebury&in_name=on&in_order_by=relevance+date - More by this author » Last updated at 23:58pm on 30th November 2007

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When a teenage girl was gang raped in Saudi Arabia,a court sentenced HER to 90 lashes. After she complained,it was increased to 200. Now, the victim speaks for the first time...

She was only 19 and a new bride when it happened.

Seven men held her at knifepoint and, for a number of hours, she was subjected to a horrific gang rape.

But when she later went to the authorities, they sentenced her to 90 lashes.

She complained in the media, so the punishment was increased to 200 lashes and imprisonment.

Her lawyer has been suspended for speaking out against it.

Scroll down for more...

Too outlandish to be true? Well, these are the bare facts of the so- called "Qatif girl" case, which has become a cause celebre among Western liberals and in Saudi Arabia, the West's most important Middle Eastern ally.

Earlier this week, the Saudi foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal, declared that what had happened was, indeed, an "outrage".

But he did not mean that the rape victim had suffered a gross injustice.

No, only that criticism of his country was a foreign conspiracy.

The plight of the anonymous victim has served to cast an embarrassing light on one of the world's most authoritarian and oppressive regimes.

Specifically, it has exposed the power of a judicial system based on the Sharia law of the extreme Wahhabi sect of Sunni Islam and its appalling treatment of women and persecution of religious minorities.

International pressure to clear the young woman is growing.

Now, as one Saudi judge who might well hear her latest appeal declares that she should have been sentenced to death, the victim's voice has been heard in public for the first time.

The pressure group Human Rights Watch has just released a transcript of an interview which the Qatif girl gave to one of its workers.

Her account reveals the horrific details of the original ordeal and how, having gone to the police, she was abused and demonised by the Saudi judicial system.

The attack took place in February last year and had its roots in a typical Saudi teenage arrangement which in the West would seem odd, but is a way of getting round the strict Islamic sex segregation laws.

Forbidden from approaching young women directly, young men make contact by publicly displaying their own mobile phone numbers on cards as they pass in the street or by dropping the cards through open car windows.

Others make contact using their phone's Bluetooth technology, which allows users to send messages to nearby mobile phones without knowing the telephone number.

"I had a relationship with someone on the phone," recalled the Qatif girl.

"It started when we were both 16. I had never seen him before, I just knew his voice. Then he started to threaten me and I got afraid.

"He threatened to tell my family about the relationship. Because of the threats and fear, I agreed to give him a photo of myself."

But when the girl wed another young man she became worried about the photo she had given to her "ex-boyfriend".

"I asked him for the photo back but he refused. He said: 'I'll give you the photo on the condition that you come out with me in my car.'

"I told him we could meet at a souk [market] near my neighbourhood in Qatif."

She recalled: "He started to drive me home, and when were about to turn the corner to my house, another car stopped right in front of our car.

"Two people got out of their car and stood on either side of our car. The man on my side had a knife.

"They tried to open our door. I told the individual with me not to open the door, but he did. He let them come in. I screamed."

The ordeal had begun.

"One of the men brought a knife to my throat. They told me not to speak. They pushed both of us to the back of the car and started driving. We drove a lot, but I didn't see anything since my head was forced down.

"They took us to an area with lots of palm trees. No one was there. If you kill someone there, no one would know about it."

First, they took the girl's male companion from the car.

He was the victim of homosexual rape a number of times during the course of the evening.

"I was so afraid," the girl said.

"Then they forced me out of the car. They pushed me really hard. I yelled out: 'Where are you taking me? I'm like your sister.'"

They took her to a building. Then two men came in and stripped her.

"The first man with the knife raped me. I was destroyed. I tried to force them off but I couldn't. Another man came in and did the same thing to me. I didn't even feel anything after that."

For two hours the girl begged the two men to take her home.

"I told them that it was late and that my family would be asking about me.

Then I saw a third man come into the room. There was a lot of violence.

After the third man came in, a fourth came. He slapped me and tried to choke me.

"The fifth and sixth ones were the most abusive. The fifth one took a photo of me like this. After the seventh one, I couldn't feel my body any more. I didn't know what to do. When a very fat man was on top of me I could no longer breathe."

Before she was eventually taken home by the gang, she was raped again by all seven attackers.

"They took my mobile and saw my husband's picture in my wallet.

"When I got out of the car [at her home], I couldn't even walk. I rang the doorbell and my mother opened the door. She said: 'You look tired.'

"She thought I was with my husband.

"I went to the hospital the next day. I didn't eat for one week after that, just drank water. I didn't tell anyone, but I would see the rapists faces in my sleep."

However, the story began to leak out.

"The criminals started talking about it in my neighbourhood. They thought my husband would divorce me. They wanted to ruin my reputation. Slowly, my husband started to know what had happened."

But he stood by her, outraged at what the men had done and the fact they were going unpunished.

"Two of the criminals were walking round our neighbourhood, right in front of me," her husband said.

He complained to the police on four occasions before anything was done.

Human rights activists are sure the authorities' reluctance to investigate and their subsequent actions have much to do with the fact that the woman was from Saudi's Shi'ite minority, while the accused are from the majority Sunni Muslims.

When her attackers were finally called to account, the girl had to go to court, where she received a hostile reception.

"At the first session, the judges said to me: 'What kind of relationship did you have with this individual [the man she originally agreed to meet]? Why did you leave the house? Do you know these men?'

"They asked me to describe the situation. They yelled at me. They were insulting. The judge refused to allow my husband in the room with me.

"One judge told me I was a liar because I didn't remember the dates well. They kept saying: 'Why did you leave the house? Why didn't you tell your husband where you were going?'"

The second session, in October last year, proved to be even more shocking.

Four of the attackers - the three others were not found - were given sentences of between one and five years and between 80 and 1,000 lashes.

They were convicted only of kidnapping because the prosecution could not prove rape even though the video images taken on the mobile phone during the attack were presented to the judges.

"I thought these people shouldn't even live," said their victim.

"I thought they would get a minimum of 20 years."

Then the senior judge turned to her and her male companion on the night of the gang rape.

"He said: 'You get 90 lashes. You should thank God you're not in prison.'

"I asked him why and he said: "You know why. Because mingling begets evil.' "

She had been convicted under the khalwa - Sharia law which forbids any woman from being alone in the company of a male to whom she is not related.

"Don't you have any dignity?" her husband demanded of the judges. It was no good. And worse was to follow. The girl grew suicidal. Her own brother blamed her for the attack and his family's "shame".

"He hit me and tried to kill me," she said.

But she was not prepared to accept her unjust punishment.

With the backing of the leading Saudi human rights lawyer, Abdul Rahman al-Laham, she made the facts public, even giving an interview to an Arab TV channel. But far from embarrassing the authorities, this merely seemed to enrage them.

On November 14, the General Court of Qatif struck back, increasing her sentence to 200 lashes and six months in prison.

(Flogging is usually carried out in batches by a prison official who has to hold a copy of the Koran under his whip arm, which prevents it from being raised very high).

The rapists' sentences were also increased to between two and 11 years each.

An official at the court said that her sentence was raised because of "her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media".

Judge Sa'd al-Muhanna also banned her lawyer, Abdul Rahman al-Laham, from the courtroom and from representing her in future for allegedly raising his voice in court.

His licence to practise has been suspended and his passport seized.

He faces a further hearing before a Ministry of Justice disciplinary committee in Riyadh next week for appearing regularly on television and talking about the case.

Overnight, though, the Qatif girl's case became a matter of international interest.

How on earth could the Saudi authorities justify such behaviour?

US presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton became involved. But far from retreating, the Saudi authorities dug their heels in.

Official statements posted on the Ministry of Justice website in the past fortnight have alleged that the girl admitted adultery and was already undressed in the car when she was attacked by the rapists.

One statement went so far as to say that it was her own fault: "The main reason the crime took place was because the woman and her companion, who exposed her to this heinous crime, did not follow the law."

The ministry chastised the media for providing an "unjustified defence" of the woman.

A representative of the ministry also appeared on television blaming her for the attack.

He strongly hinted that she had engaged in adultery.

Earlier this week a Saudi newspaper published an interview with Judge Dr Ibrahim bin Salih al-Khudairi of the Riyadh Appeals Court, in which he said that he would have sentenced her to death.

The Appeals Court, and possibly Judge al-Khudairi, will consider the appeal that the Qatif girl said she intends to file.

Impartial? Hardly.

"How is this woman going to get a fair hearing?" asks Farida Deif, of Human Rights Watch.

"The Ministry of Justice has been highly defamatory of her and suggestive that she committed adultery and it was, therefore, her own fault.

"Yes, she broke the law on mingling, but the court should have shown some discretion given that she was brutally gang-raped.

"But this is a country with no written penal law, in which the judges are religious scholars with very little formal legal training."

Thanks to the internet and satellite television however, the Qatif girl's case has caused many Saudis to question the fairness of their own judicial system.

Legal reforms have been announced recently.

But life in the kingdom is still dominated by the religious police who work for the Commission For The Propagation Of Virtue And The Prevention Of Vice to enforce a strict Islamic lifestyle.

They are the untouchables.

Indeed, only on Thursday it was reported that charges against two religious policemen had been dropped. They had been investigated following the death of a man in custody.

The man had been arrested for allegedly drinking alcohol and there was evidence that he had been kicked in the head - but not sufficient to pursue the case, a judge decided.

It echoes a similar case in the summer in which three other members of the religious police had charges dropped after the death of another suspect in custody.

The victim's alleged crime was, like that of the Qatif girl, being alone with an unrelated member of the opposite sex.

The Saudi foreign minister has said that the judicial system will review the Qatif girl's case.

In the meantime, as she awaits her fate, she remains under virtual house arrest, unable to communicate with the outside world; her traumatised family's phones are tapped by the religious police and they are followed when they leave the house.

Meanwhile, the girl is still tormented by thoughts of suicide. But then, in the medieval world of Saudi law she has only herself to blame.

  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=498849&in_page_id=1879 - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=498849&in_page_id=1879

 

 

 

Personally. That is terrible justice. Terrible Islam. Unfortuantely, Saudi Arabia has conerned the market on Wahhabi conservatism and has been trying to spread it's form of Islam for decades. It's a rich country with fingers all over the world.

 

No diisrespect to our Saudi's on this forum. Maybe you all could shine some light on this terrible incident.

 

 

 

I have a quiz in an hour's time but when I read this thread, the hell with the quizz.

 

First of all, please, do not philosophize about a case that you know absolutely nothing about it. You were not present during the original trial nor during the actual appeal. I will elaborate later but the women (who is married by the way) was a well known HOOKER, a prostitute, a sl*t. She used to go on double dates, play on many strings and in the end she was raped. The case is quite complicated but to make thing short, the punishment mentioned above is actually rather merciful, she committed, based on testimony and her own confession Grand Adultry the punishment of which is stoning in both Shia and Sunni jurispudence. I will explain the full detailes of the case later.

 

Al-Jassas

 

Please, Lord say, i didn't read this.

 

She is or was a hooker, so it was her own fault to be raped?

 

The punishment was mercyful? Please let me never know, what a not mercy punishment means.

 

Might be, Lord , i'm only an ignorant, western mollycoddle who belives in such stupid things like democracy, justice and respect. But Lord, please prevent that i sometimes will know the true promise of the mercy adjudgement of a saudi arabian court.

 

Well brian, believe it or not, there are more hookers than you can imagine in Saudi Arabia. I know that because several of my relatives work for the Committee for the promotion of virtue and prevention of vice. In 2005 a nationwide attack on slums netted more than 10 000 of these hookers, some Saudi but most foriegners, some male but most are female. I know the slums they are in and these were off limits for the police. After several incidents including 11 member of the Airforce acadamy catching HIV from one of these hookers (she stayed in their apartment for a weekend of debauchery), an exponential rise in HIV incidents in the city of Jeddah, the murder of two policemen on duty and the public rape attempt on an egyptian girl in front of the police in broad daylight (fortunately she was defended by those present), police attacked them and netted a lot of people but I know several friends here in the uni who visit these hookers during most weekends. They go to Bahrain to buy condoms and return here or stay there to find prostitutes.

 

I don't have much time now to explain the situation here but she is not the only one to suffer what some here see as injustice. A black belted kid in Taekwondo sent two burglars who broke into his house to the hospital with broken bones, he was punished for using excessive force and was sent to prison spending more time than the buglars.

 

 

The woman was not a "sex worker", she came from a prominent Shia family but she was indeed a slut. Now, how do I know the detailes, I lives in the same area (25 km south of Qatif) I knew about the case from about day one and the judge leaked the sentence and the appeal was published. I will give you all the detailes later.

 

 

Al-Jassas

 

If the mankind had followed those principles, all the struggles for a self-determinated life, for fair earnings, peace and freedom hadn't took place.

Poor world, that!

The issue here for me is not the appropriateness of the actions (its inane as I mentioned above), but rather the right of nations to manage their own affairs.

 

Incidentally as Al Jassas's comments illustrate, that there are people whose views of "civilised" behavious differs from your own, and one of the hallmarks of civilised behaviour is recognising that fact.

 

 

I believe the Afrikana resistance Movement had the same views about Apartied.

 

 

The story began a long time ago, this woman was a slut. She had multiple affaires with grown men (sometimes under the guise of Muta marriage) since she was 15 years old. She came from a prominent family and by the time she was 16, she became involved with the man she went out with on that faitful night. That man's family was not so big. By the time she was 18, she already started another relationship with another man from another big family in her region, that last man became her husband.

 

After he learned that he was tricked, the lover began to plot for revenge. He threatened her with exposure which would have been very damaging for her family and started blackmailing her. Now, since one of my relatives is a high ranking officer, he told us that the normal thing was that she should have called the police who take all blackmail cases seriously. One guy I know tried to blackmail a restaurant (a lousy one too) and he was swiftly caught and the restaurant, despite having a very poor record was off the hook. But she didn't, and instead, she offered (by her own testimony) "one-on-one" negotiations. She went with him in his car to an isolated farming area in the dead of night (about 8:30 while the sun sets about 5:00) and from here, every party says something.

 

The woman said that the guy tried to take advantage of her, a group of men who were in league with him came and took them both after they recognized both her and her lover, they already knew about they old relationship but they also knew that she was married and they raped both of them.

 

The lover said he defended her but they were too many and she was raped and he was raped and they were to be blackmailed.

 

The rapists, each of them had a completely different acount from the other, said the woman offered her self to them if they rape and tape the lover.

 

In any given case police on patrol caught the woman and her lover and here, the case went out of her hands. The family of the duped husband pressed for a civil law suit against the woman for adultry, the duped husband refused but had to accept of the digrace was put on the internet.

 

The rapists were on the run for nearly a month until they gave themselves up.

 

 

During the investigation and subsequent trials, the woman changed her testimony 3 times. The rapists and the lover all had their conflicting part during the testimony. All these changes happened while they were under oath. In at least one of the testimonies, the woman said that she did offer herself to the rapists but this time to save her life and the life of her lover and that she stripped nude to do that.

 

Now, you might ask, if the rape was taped and the punishment for it is death, then why was these people weren't sentenced to death. Well the answer is two fold.

 

First, no kind of evidence is admitted in any kind of trial as a proof of guilt. ie, if you were taped killing a person, only your own admission or the testimony of 2 people is sufficient to send you to die.

 

Second, there is a juidicial principle similar to double jeopardy in Saudi Arabia. This principal is a capital punishment is commuted when an evidence exists that cast a doubt about the validity of the punishment. For example, if you defended your self against an armed intrusure, you will be free to go but if the intrusure was not armed and you killed him, then you face capital punishment. Here, The raped woman herself had so many conflicting testimonies and so shadowy a past that punishing these people with death was unfair.

 

However, she was punished for betraying the trust of her husband (which is a crime here) and involving in illicit actions by her own admission and thus she was punished. The last matter was a civil suit (brought by the husband's family) not a criminal one.

 

I hope you learned something and excuse me for the lack of legal knowledge but this is what happened.

 

Al-Jassas 

Life is very short, the state infliction of misery is an abomination, still could be worse,

could be here.

 

Don't you find it unjustifiable that the initial focus of the trial was about the womens honesty? How obviious does it have to be. Stalkers, gang, intimidation, hiding from the law. All fingers point to the gangs guilt. Yet the focus of the trial appeared to make it out that the women was to blame. That is the part of your justice system that most of us have a hard time with. She could have been visited by health care professionals to help her through that rather traumatic ordeal. She should not have her husband thrwon out of court or her lawyer denied access. She should of been defended by the courts themselves over the charge of rape. Not harrassed by the court.

Which piece of information is true?

 

 

 

Reginmund - You live in a society that doesnt promote Family Values - i dont care what you say - im speaking relatively. Although sex is natural - societies that tend to curtail limits on it also have stronger family values than societies that dont. China vs Japan. America vs India. You get the drift.

 

If your going to say that it wont stop the sex and prostitution, your right. However there is a stark difference between the way Westerners have sex (and think of it) and the way the Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus think of it.

 

The Kama Sutra - if you read the history - was invented for those married couples who were going through a rocky marriage time period. Not for boyfriends and girlfriends.

 

We come from societies where - not that sex itself is sinful (we have the worlds highest growth rates) - but who you do it with is taken into consideration.

 

We also dont put our old people into retirement homes conveniently located next to a Cemetary. That is a crime in our books. Probably hard for the Westerners to imagine - but one with equal magnitude that you guys feel when "human rights" have been curtailed.

 

As for the punishment - its fine. But does it apply in this situation or not?

 

On a Side Note:

Saudi women - believe it or not - can be skanky if they want to be. If any of you work in the Gulf and ever had the chance to fly back from there to the West; you probably know what im talking about the moment the airplane begins to fly over the Mediterannean.

To the western mind, personal freedoms are virtually everything we hold dear, there are many side effects to this, some good some bad.

I can only speak from where i live, but you will have to search quite hard to find, sons and daughters that do not love there mums and dads, and even harder to find mums and dads who do not love there children.

It requires no promoting mughaal, its wired into the human system, if you are talking about marriage and divorce, then you may be right, the rates of divorce are quite high, but on the other hand a child living in a house with two adults at war and just sticking together for the sake of it, will be no happier than if they split.

besides monogomy to me atleast is waste of youth and life, there are many, many loverly women and only one life to enjoy their favours.

I will take hedonism over antiquated rules any day of the week.

Its worth noting that this act could happen to any woman unfortunate enough, pray its never somebody you are related too.

Your perspective mughaal might change.

 

You dont promote family values. Simply that. You promote the following: individualism & freedom and you guys do a good job.

 

But no, there is a definite lack of family in your system.

 

Even with the greater wealth of the world you have high divorce rates; elderly peoples homes, lack of community, lack of sense of marital discipline, children dont know how to respect their parents ("My mom is such a b*tch").

 

Dont tell me whats not true. Think realpolitik. Think relatively.

 

Sex is important to govern. You cant go around the world screwing everyone, spreading your seed everywhere. Its not morally righteous no matter what your testicles tell you.

 

Condoms obviously dont go to far if Western Nations have high rates of out-of-wed-lock pregnancies and teenage pregnancies. So dont bring that up. Im not saying other cultures are the elevated examples of morality - but they are keener and more sensible on such issues.

 

One thing your forgetting is the smallest unit of government is the family system. And family is created by the coming of a male and female and producing a child. A human is born.

And if you make a habit of f**king around everyone not wedded to you - you create an imbalance in the "system".

 

What can be said for a society that chooses to "live" together rather than get married? Afterall, the difference between "living together" and being officially married is a piece of signed paper.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2016431,00.html - http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2016431,00.html

 

Also, dont go tell me its the "same thing" or id rather not "judge" my children. How selfish. Youd rather not judge people who selfishly create a culture of screwing around on demand? What that does to your society is very apparent.

 

Again, its not like no one in India doesnt screw around. However the thing is Indians dont promote their infidelities or other "engagements". They dont blare seductive or alluring females in their movies, music, magazines, or other cultural venues.

 

And no, we are happy with our arranged marriages.

Secondly, when we get into an argument we do divorce if need be; but the Indians know how to handle marital discord without affecting the children or making it obvious to the children. Homes arent that miserable. I know so - been there done that.

 

But as longshanks put it "I will take hedonism over "antiquated" rules anyday"

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, when you know your going to be humiliated publicly if you do something - you dont do it. Its actually ingrained into you from a young age.

 

Again, this is hard for Western people to understand because they are used to thinking Individually and not Socially.

 

Here is a thought. Its much harder to get away with a crime Ken Lay committed in the USA or Europe then it is in Thailand or Mexico.

 

Why?

 

Because whereas in the USA/Europe such things are rigorously enforced whereas in Mexico - while frowned upon - they are also part of the greater "system" (or culture to those who prefer) of favoring family and friends and nepotism.

In Latin America you got to high positions based on those you know. In USA their is a higher chance to get to high positions through hard work. Its a social system of its own.

 

Whereas Ken Lay is a family friend of Bush Sr. he still had a hard time getting away free. If it was Sr. Ken Layo of Guadalajara who was a friend of Vincente Fox - you bet your bottom dollar he would be in the Bahamas right now - retired and enjoying.

 

So, sorry. Its true. There is less.

 

For example: turn on the Disney Channel. You have these "soap operas" for kids (or drama shows) like Malcolm in the Middle (except with younger stars) who had a breakup with his girlfriend.

 

Now this child probably is only 11 - playing the part of a 8 year old. He doesnt have the hormones to understand sexual desire. Yet thw whole show revolves around him trying to hook up with his girl again.

 

Very subtle yet says alot about where a group of people have their pursuits. Now if you were to watch a Latin American Soap on Univision you would get them dramatizing a different scenario. And on a Pakistani television they dramatize the epic battle between the wife of an industrialist and his mother.

 

Although there is a high rate of homosexuality (distinction between "gay" the lifestyle and "homosexuality" the sexual practice) in Central Asia ~ it has always been there. Homosexuality has been with people for the longest time - yet its the matter of "how" not "if".

 

How do you deal with it? Is it a crime? Why? Why not? What are the repurcussions?

 

Why shouldnt we practice free sex like some African tribes in the Congo?

Why should we?

 

In the end, there is sexual crimes, but I remember hearing the rate of rape in the USA. Let me find it . . . .

 

So its not really a matter of sexual hunger - rather to prove your own superiority over others that sexual crimes happen (or extreme sexual desire).  

 

So , the short answer to your criticism, Mixcoatl, is YES, it does make a difference. Especially if all the women in your neighborhood are going to come out of their houses and beat you with canes, shoes, rolling pins, etc.

 

I thought I have explained the entire case above, why the hell nobody has paid any attention to it.

 

Under Sharia, marriage is a contract, a business venture that has nothing to do with love. The main purpose is to have children and pre-paid sex. When the woman went out with the lover, she broke that contract and was punished for that only After the husband asked for it. There is no law that bans women from speaking to other men even their ex boyfriends or ex-husbands, hell some people I know live with their ex-wifes in the same house (without sex) and have breakfast together with the new wife and all the children. There is no law that bans women from sitting in a car with another man or else there would not have been taxis in Saudi Arabia, there is no law that prevent women from travelling alone with other men.

 

The whole problem is that the woman breached the contract between her husband and herself and she was punished for that not for being raped.

 

And for you Regi, good luck with tranforming the Saudi society. Back in the 60s when the king opened the school system for girls the country almost went into civil war and still many societies prevent girls from attending school and forcing them would be suicidal. Men marrying from women of upper classes is still a taboo and many people nearly lost their lives because of that. Believe it or not there are societies where women still do not go outside the house day or night. I knew a women that spent 5 years in the US and she never saw sunlight except on two occasions, the day they came and the day the went back home.

 

Sick, yes, but if we want civil war on our hands we only need to allow women to drive. This is a fact.

 

Do not compare your society with ours, in your society, sex has became something like the call of nature, you have an orgasm, you go do it with the colsest girl if she accepts, that was told to me by a guy who went to Sweden, that means sex has become like urinating which is disgusting in my humble opinion.

 

And Condoms do exist and at a low price actually in Saudi Arabia, but if I went to the pharmacy I will be kicked out since it is obvious that I am not married. Those who catch AIDS typically uneducated drug addicts who know nothing of sexual hygiene and care less about condoms.

 

Al-Jassas

 

Prostitution has nothing to do with family values. It more about money. usually poorer places have more prostitution.

 

Homosexuality practiced in Muslim countries is realized to be a sin. It isnt "apparent" but its there. Especially in central asia.

Firstly sir, perhaps some tangible evidence backing up you belief wold be appropriate.

 

Secondly, punishments have never stopped theft and murder and are unlikely to do so. Maybe you are going to advise that we permit them "since they are going to be around anyway."

 

I am afraid I have to disagree on your assumption. I know about 30 people here in the uni and from all of them, only 3 I know that they might have been involed in pre-marital sex. Homosexuality exists and I know several people involved but these are well know across the university and from 10 000 students on campus, they might be no more than 100 students, some were caught in a male prostitution ring several years back.

 

Also, the rate of prostitution, homosexuality and pre-marital sex is not that high, yes, if you want it you will find it but when the police forced their way, most of the costumers were actually Indian, Pakistani and especially Bengali who were almost exclusively the only nationality other than natives that were pimps.

 

By the way Sparten, based on your legal experience, was my exposition good or is there some mysteries that need clarifications?

 

Al-Jassas

 

I dont think you meant to; but you did.

 

Theres something that Westerners lack: respect for the family institution. Like you respect your "freedoms" we respect our "family". All the humagoblin you said is mute if you have the respect, esteem, and discipline to raise a successful family like you do raise a succesful institution (democracy - trust me, you need heavy training to maintain it).

 

Mothers may act "like a bitch" but at the end of the day she is your mother; not a foreigner.

 

Just goes to show you there is a concrete wall that wont come down soon. I for one am a mix between two cultures - however when i die i want my loved ones around me; not a Elderly Homes' nurse and the stinging scent of death in a hospital like atmosphere.

 

Secondly, its not hypocritical when you dont air your dirty laundry. Are people hypocrites if they do something wrong and dont go around telling others?

 

Are you married? Just wondering, no offence.

 

Love is a transcendental, ephemeral feeling. Sort of like the feeling of being "tired" or angry. It comes and goes; based on the chemical on-goings inside your body.

 

Do you quit your job because you happen to be tired one week?

 

Marriage is an institution, friend. Not a ephemeral thing based on passing feelings.

 

(Although love can be everlasting, you can love someone while being angry at them. Just because a father yells at his son for driving into the garage door doesnt mean love is gone.)

Its almost intrinsic, and searching for words is hard.

 

However, Aysaan Ali is no authority. Im sure shit happened to her - but that all falls short. Her reputation isnt that great to begin with.

 

I know several women in my family who have arranged marriages (not forced) and they are all happy within their engagement. I also know of people (cousins) who specifically chose their marriage partner and suffered multiple divorces. Not that specifically choosing your partner leads to divorce - rather their sense of family is skewed. It sucks. They divorced 2X. (americans)

 

Forced Marriages can result from such a culture; but at the same time - they dont have to. And the forced marriage phenomenon cant be more than 15%. And thats me pushing numbers to match the Western 50% divorce rate.

 

Besides Marital Integrity though; we also got going filial piety and a sense of togetherness. Community.

 

I never will have to pay for my college tuition - my father paid. I will pay to get my brother out of law school. He wont pay me back. We have a strong and vigourous bond.

 

My answer to your trite "women have potential for less rights" jab.

 

One of the most stark things that are different between your society and mine is Motherhood is still a gateway to aristocracy.

 

One of the biggest blunders Orientalists make is assuming the Harem system was a whore house for the King. But, sex addicts will think about sex.

 

 

Ayaan Hirsi Ali told a whole load of **bull** to get asylum, like the fact that she ran from an arranged marriage and was under threat, nonsence she lived with him for a year, did not work out she went to the Netherlands, he followed, and she told him it was over and he left. And she barely spent a few days of her life in Somalia, most of it was in Kenya or Libiya.

Hello to you all

 

Ayan Ali is the last person in the world that you could get feedback about Islam from. Divorce is simple and accessable all around the Islamic world and yet the divorce rates in the Islamic world are about a tenth of all marriages. also one of the things that irritates me is this huge concentration on honor killings. Come on, from over 1000 murders in Jordan last year, only 13 were honor killings, damn it only 13! so stop making a fuss about it.

 

And finally for the fifth time, the woman was punished for committing adultry and betraying her husband. The rapists got at least 6 years and 2000 lashes.

 

Al-Jassas

Definatly not the case here.

Hello Sparten

 

Nevertheless, where do you get the four witnesses. These is no dout sexual intercourse happened but since the judge cannot rule on adultry he can however rule on suspession of adultry since she alreay said in one of her many statements that the sex was indeed consentual. Also, the forensics supported that theory since no forced entry was found when the woman was examined which was crucial in this case. In any given case, the woman's testimony was so unreliable that she was going to be kicked from the courthouse if she was in the "forward" west.

 

Al-Jassas

I do hope that was in jest?

 

Al Jassas,

The fact remains that the procedural law is very clear on this, a confession dose not suffice, only if 4 witnesses can be brought forward with sufficient evidence that the act was indeed consensual, only then can Hadd be applied. Here the judge just presumed that she was a slut and  awarded the punishment. It may be Saudi law. But it certainly is not Islamic law.

 

Actually under Sharia, confessions are, as in all legal system, the strongest proof. When one confesses to a crime than he is nished for it. The woman confessed to adultry and other accusations but withdrew her confession. A withdrawn confession has no merit legally but since the circumstantial evidance were too strong otherwise, like the forensic tests and conflicting testimonies she was punished for, among other things, contempt which was also the reason why the lawyer was disciplined, and last time I checked lawyers do get disciplined in the west.

 

In any given case, I do not see much difference in this case from the loads of injustice that is been handed down by judges in western countries, or have we forgotten about Greensboro massacre, Rodney King and other crimes which were videotaped from beginning to end and had numerous witnesses and yet the assailents got away thanks to double jeopardy.

 

And Regi, please read my post above, honor killings are nothing compared with ordinary murder, and if you want to compare civilization, than compare incidents of sexual abuse between the west and Islamic countries and then we can speak about civilization. Honor killing are a sort of sexual abuse aren't they?

 

Al-Jassas

 

 Reg.

Just for the record, I as a moderator and in general, support your position.

 

That being said, you are on a millimeter wide line.  Just as it is your right to speak your mind, it is also your responsibility to consider the rights and feelings of others when you express yourself.

 

 

 

Al Jassas-  

 

From your postings one could surmise that you haven't yet raised a daughter.

 

 

 

sparten, absoloutly, but to have a legal system that does not accept anything other than western values is no more daft than a legal system that does not accept anything other than islamic values.

 

law needs to reflect common sence, and wisdom, otherwise the laws are worthless.

Im sure you will agree however, that laws that are inhumane are plain wrong, and if you look over borders im sure you see nations with both better and worse legal systems than you live with.

At the lower stages of the pile in my view is the saudi system, dont get me wrong, this is nothing to do with islam, there are many islamic countries with very good legal systems, some are neighbours of saudi arabia.

The legal system in saudi seems to have a lust for cruelty rather than justice, which considering its important place in the world and rather fortunate circumstances is rather odd.

 

Whereas they practice free love; we dont. We have a structured, rigid system that we believe enforces and bolsters family, lineage, society, community.

 

Both Westerners and Muslims can have multiple partners; but the Muslims are more structured in their approach.

 

I think the talk of "primitive" also comes from the notion that the Qatif Girl is; variably considered in Western eyes; the "possesion" of dominating men. And she is being punished by men. The article makes fleeting references to the punishment of the men also.

 

Also, the rapists are supposed to get death. Al Jassas - how come the Rapists didnt get death?

After reading most of the posts I did notice that an informal warning was given. Being that this was not a fromal warning there would be nothing to retract. Otherwise I would have done so. Not that Regimund's posts are innocent of particulars but that it was not severe enough to earn a formal. He is correct in that honour killings are a custom in much of the middle east and that does include the impoverished parts of south eastern Turkey as he mentioned. Though it may not be related to the topic directly it does have a conection with the way justice is observed by families or individuals, as if vigilanties, in those parts of the world.

 

Surely one can also talk about the problem, in at least the US, with stalkers and crimes of passion. Which is also a horrific behavior that abuses the rights of persons who do not want to continue in a problematic relationship. Both are forms of control over another individual. Now that I equalled the playing field sort of in that saying all kinds societies do have individuals that abuse others and step on their freedoms, I think we can focus on the big picture and seek the reasons why people cannot let go when another person wants out of a relationship.

 

Please continue with the discussion. Leniency will be given in this thread if it gets a bit offensive. Keep in mind to not take issues personally and try to debate the issues as best as you can.  

 

It only shames him and makes a caricature of him to warn others.

 

Given the Western stance on rationalism and no religion; i think they will never tolerate a Muslim or Islamic Shariah in their system. They will never understand it either.

 

Whereas their History shows oppression by Kings and the Church; they seek salvation in Democracy and Philosophical Rationalism.

 

Muslims have a history of oppression by our Kings too; but our Religion; Islam - has always stood by us. From the time of Imam Abu Hanifa to Imam Ahmad's standing up to the Abbasid Khalif - religion was invoked to save the Muslims from oppression. So they seek it. And whereas these punishments are in legalistic and "secular" terms considered cruel and unusual; in a Muslims eyes they are Shariah. And rather it is not the punishment - but the Crime that is considered Cruel and Unusual.

 

Interesting about the Macro-Philosophy of Religious Communities.

 

In the Western POV this is a correlation of the Honor Crime system - where the woman is property. But in this case the male lover is also getting punished.

 

But i warn you guys; dont take Saudi Law to heart. The reports are all skewed. Even the girls lawyer says there is something wrong with the process; and im sure he has experience.

 

------------------

Brian-

I was thinking that under any model of system; it will always have a certain set of good and a certain set of bad.

 

The European Humanitarian Cultural System has much going for it. If thats how they want to live its going great. Its drawbacks ive already mentioned are that they have weak family ties. They concern themselves with each other more.

 

Then take the Indian Culture. It reinforces (strictly) family relations to the point i know my 5th cousin very well. We dont act like cousins, we act like brothers. And if im down in the dumps i get a shoulder to lean on; not just one, many shoulders.

 

However; who i marry and where i live - i need to take into consideration whats good for my family - not just me. I might not be able to marry a certain girl because she doesnt get along with my mother. I may not be able to lead a NIMBY chic lifestyle in a Chicago Downtown Loft because my kids need to go to a good school.

 

In short; the moral support i enjoy balances out the social pressures i face. And in the western system the independence i have to do what i want balances out my weak family system and "depression".

 

Depression is another thing. When i am depressed in America my doctor gives me pills. When i am depressed in India people look at me like "What the hell is that?" and the cure to depression is for the family to jump into 3 rickshaws and head to the local ice cream parlor and get 3 scoops.

 

First over generalization is you believe western family tradition is weak and hence not equal to family values of the east. Though perhaps more modern, western families have just as much care and cohsiveness between each family member as do most any other. There certainly exists those outcast members from any family that is disjointed and distant from the unit as a whole too. But this is a human issue, not geographical. Same goes for moral support. Any loving family member will do that for there own.

 

Regarding depression you certainly have a joyful treatment for it. If it only were true that icecream alone could aleviate or perhaps diminsh depression in the long term, we would have more doctors prescribing Ben and Jerry's or Haagen Dazs. Make mine vanilla with chocolate chips please!

 

One thing you did not mention is that, in America, doctors not only give medication for depression but they also refer their patients to a mental health specialist to further treat that particular disorder. I am sure with this comprehensive approach, including ice cream of course, that people suffering from depression have most bases covered for the road to recovery.

 

 

 

 

 

There has been a lot of talk about her being subjected to a law and legal argument used. Law implies that it is a system for all. Fact is the rules people are applying to her only are being used on her because she is poor and female. If she was a rich man they would not be applied. So she is not being treated legally but persecuted for being poor and female. Half the men in the Saudi Royal family spend half their lives whoring their way around the world. Is this same set of beliefs ever used to punish them?

 

Now, i think i understand why you replied to me.

 

All im saying is that within a "cultural bubble" there is both good and bad. Its more about what you want more. Do you want the ability to assert yourself more or do you want the community around you more?

 

I have white acquaintances. I know they have "family values" but those values are third place before the value of doing what you want.

 

Indians also enjoy the ability to make their own decisions. I know some who study things like Psychology over the trite trio of "Engineering, Medicine, IT". However this assertiveness and individualism is ranked third place over priorities.

 

For me example. I love History. My father wanted me to do Engineering. And so i am. However i confess my grades could be better if i put down the History books and read more and do more homework.

 

Point is, im going to be an Engineer to make my father proud. At the same time my Father is paying my whole tuition and living expenses.

 

Its more of a self-sacrifice to please others in your community (which, if you want to live in a society you have to give up some freedoms to do anyways-unless you choose to live in the wilderness) - then a sense of a personal loss. But each his own.

 

Your absolutely right Paul.

 

I think there would be alot less criticism from the West if King Abdullah and the Princes were also whipped for when he drinks.

 

Unfortunately that is the Muslim World. The Rulers are not subject to Law. Since the Ummayads no ruler was subject to law unless he himself chose to be.

 

First Brian, we have seen the result of rehabilitation programs done in western countries penetentionary system. Last time I checked, Saudi Arabia with 24 million had only 642 murders in 2006 while NYC had the same number despite have roughly 8 million. Registered crimes were only 26000 something that were referred to criminal courts. Now, I think that the last people on earth who can give advice about how to reduce crime are the ones who have exponential crime rates. In Saudi Arabia you canleave your car open for days and no one will dare steal it and the last time a guy had his hand chopped was 7 years ago. Yes corporal punishment is not good but it brings security. People get lost talking about the rights of criminals, which is in my mind no more than free legal counsil and a free and fair trial, but forget the rights of the millions who suffer from their crimes, some even lost their own lives.

 

As for you Mughaal, the men did not get the death penalty, although they should have, because there was no clear cut evidence that they did indeed rape the women. All of them took oaths denying it and with the turbulant story of the woman which rendered her testimony unreliable.

 

 

As for you red clay, I would be honored to raise a daughter because the Prophet said that who raises at least two daughters and take good care of them he has guaranteed a place in Paradise. But I do have 3 younger sisters, 25 first cousins and numersous 2nd, 3rd and 4th cousins.

 

 

Al-Jassas

 

 

And I hope you have healthy children, but that's not what I was talking about.  But from your answer, I know you won't understand until you have raised a daughter of your own.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The point is if the law applied to the Saudi royal family, it wouldn't be law anymore, they'de change it to something fairer.

 

The fact they don't apply some laws to the ruling class shows the rulling class of Saudi Arabia agree these laws are stupid. so you can't talk about them as anyway legitimate when applied to Saudi citizens.

 

 

 

 

I dont think they "agree" its stupid; rather they feel above the law.

Are laws that dont affect Chinese Communist Members (high ups) but the citizens because they are stupid laws?

 

Next time a CEO gets away with breaking business ethics; is it because those ethics are stupid?

 

Saudi jurisdiction does not extend to crimes that happen outside the realms of Saudi Arabia. This is one of the basic principles in law. Commit whatever crime outside Saudi Arabia but you are going to be safe and sound. There is even a guy indicted with direct involvement with the 911 attacks (the bearded guy that appeared with ibn Laden in a video tape released by the Americans during the war) and he is free because he was investigated and was found not guilty of crimes against Saudi Arabia.

 

As for you Parnell, god willing, I will dig up the legal history of Ireland and will definitely find a similar case to this. The woman regardless of what happened to her BROKE the law. Being raped is an unfortunate incident but nevertheless she broke the law BEFORE being raped. Sometime ago a woman bought her and her children's lives with her body and she was NOT punished. She broke the law by having consentual sex with the robber but it was to save lives and no charges of adultry were brought and she went free while the robber was executed. A same incident happened near our neighbourhood and the woman also went free.

 

Al-Jassas

 

Although my father does wish for happiness; at the same time i use my five senses to realize what he hoped for. Parents have aspirations for their children.

 

I decided, being the older child, to make my father happy.

 

Moreover, Ive never compromised my personality because I dont consider any "job" or "career" to define me. Who I am is because of the people who have helped me become what I am today. And I cant forget them.

 

Anywho, its not like I dislike Engineering. Rather the more I learn the more interesting it gets. It wouldnt be my first choice though.