Ancient Mediterranean and Europe: Rosetta Stone-Decoding the Demotic Text

Print Page | Close Window

Rosetta Stone-Decoding the Demotic Text

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mediterranean and Europe
Forum Discription: Greece, Macedon, Rome and other cultures such as Celtic and Germanic tribes
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22580
Printed Date: 24-Apr-2024 at 10:28
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com

Topic: Rosetta Stone-Decoding the Demotic Text

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Subject: Rosetta Stone-Decoding the Demotic Text
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 21:32

CRACKING THE DEMOTIC TEXT:

The research work of the two scientists Tentov and Bosheski brought forth an interesting issue. Apparently, they managed to decode the middle text from the Rosetta Stone (commonly treated as demotic), using the same approach that the French used to decode the Egyptian hieroglyphs from the first text.

The French used Coptic to decode the language of the Pharaohs, as the closest link to the ancient Egyptians, and our scientists used Macedonian as the closest logical link to the language of the living masters of that time. We know that the Pharaoh that erected the stone was Ptolemy V. Why shouldn't he write a decree in his own language? The fact that the two scientists could determine not only the script, but the phonetics as well, and match it to the modern Macedonian language, shows that the ancient Macedonians, were not illiterate barbarians, but a nation with its own language and script that was in use further, besides the fierce attempt of the Roman policy to erase everything that was of Macedonian glory and thus overate it. Apparently, the Romans were proud conquerers that believed that the world started with them. It is widely known of the ravaging they did over Macedonian population and wealth, scattering it throughout the empire (both people and goods). They were systematically eradicating all signs of Alexander's empire, while ironically following his steps, thus hoping to proclaim themselves as rightful heirs of the Macedonian empire.The fact that the language was almost the same in those times, as it is today, points out that maybe what we know as Slavic in the middle ages is actually the language of the tribes of ancient Macedon. Maybe the migration of the Slavic tribes never took place. They might have never come from behind the Carpathian mountains. They might have migrated from the Balkans to the steppes. This is what archeology points at. The founding of Sindidun (Belgrade today), emerges after the peace agreed between the Celts and the Macedonians in the 4th century BC. (Read the Druid of Sindidun, Vladislav Bajac)

This may go even further: Russian royalty takes its roots from Alexander the Great. (via the Byzantine Order of the Holy Tomb)

Or: The Byzantine empire was the true heir of the Alexander's Empire. Not the West Roman Thanks to Czar Constantine and Elena his mother who was from Naissus (Nish today).

Or: The language that we call Greek today is actually the Esperanto of the ancient world, created by linguists on the basis of 40 languages using the Greek script. It is very different from the earlier Ionic and Doric dialects. This Esperanto in those times was called "Alexandrian" because this city was the center of the Empire. So, the Greek from the Bible is actually this Alexandrian, and the Greek from Byzantium was also an upgraded form of the Alexandrian dialect. The final upgrading of this form of language was done in the 18th and 19th centuries and we have its modern form known as Greek today.

Or: Cyril and Methodius never invented a knew script! They revised the ancient morphemic symbols and upgraded the writing system of the ancient Macedonians. The Glagollic script was political, while the Cyrillic a true revision of the ancient letters. That is why the glagollic was so easily replaced by the new cyrillic.

There are many approaches that need revision.

I hope the world will take notice.

Prof. A.Tentov:

“Translation or transliteration of the Demotic text in terms of reading syllable by syllable (sign by sign) has not been achieved as yet by anyone. What has been done so far is a series of attempts based on a supposition that the Demotic text is identical both in content and the composition of sentences (and words) with the other two texts. However, considering the fact that we are talking about two texts (if we take the ancient Greek and the Demotic for example) on two very different languages (even if we believe it was ancient Greek (or Danaian) and the Egyptian,) IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE to claim that the composition of sentences and the word order is identical. It is nonsense to claim that!

To the contrary, our methodology has enabled us to read whole lines of the text as well as sentences, and we have reached very logical results – the content of the Demotic text is the same as the other two, but the composition of the sentences and the word order differs a lot. Moreover, in certain sentences we have found examples of various ways of addressing the different nations in accordance to their religious beliefs and their Pantheon of Gods.”

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Replies:

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 21:36

extract from a correspondence on this issue:

As a linguist myself I make a clear distinction between a LANGUAGE and a SCRIPT. For example, the Latin script today is in use by many languages such as: Polish, English, Spanish... And many times languages have used different scripts, like in Yugoslavia we had both the Latin and the Cyrillic script (mind you, the Cyrillic of the Serbian varies from that of the Macedonian language). The most dominant script in use today in the world is the Latin. Say, after 2000 years if they dig this text out, they would probably say that we were English and even if I write something like:"nemu komu bogove divejej" it would be considered as a strange new group of terms in the English of the 21st century, that
they would call the Demotic English, spoken by the "common" people.

That is how "common" or Demotic our modern Macedonian and I guess our modern Greek would sound to those of beyond 4000AD.

Well, the Demotic, with capital D, is a SCRIPT, and this is what Wikipedia says about it:"The Demotic script was referred to by the Egyptians as sš n šˁ.t "document
writing", which the Second century scholar Clement of Alexandria called ἐπιστολογραφική "letter writing," while early Western scholars formerly referred to it as Enchorial Egyptian. The script was used for more than a thousand years, and during that time a number of developmental stages occurred."(quote finished)This "letter writing" meant that they didn't have signs for vowels, so the "letters", the consonants, were
receiving a sound based on the position of the "letter". There are symmetrical and asymmetrical signs in the Demotic script and there are more then 7 that have been deciphered by our respected Academics, Prof.Dr. Tome Boshevski and Prof. Aristotel Tentov. As their research
proves it, this Demotic script which has been in use in Egypt since the 26th dynasty, some 600 years BC, was further developed in other uses by other conquerors of Egypt. The Persians were next on line to use the Demotic script for their administrative purpose:"Early Demotic
(often referred to by the German term Fr�hdemotisch) developed in Lower Egypt during the later part of the 25th Dynasty, particularly on stelae from the Serapeum at Saqqara. It is generally dated between 650 and 400
BC as most texts written in Early Demotic are dated to the 26th Dynasty and the following Persian period (the 27th Dynasty). After the reunification of Egypt under Psametik I, Demotic replaced Abnormal Hieratic in Upper Egypt, particularly during the reign of Amasis when it became the official administrative and legal SCRIPT. During this period, Demotic was used only for administrative, legal, and commercial texts, while hieroglyphs and hieratic were reserved for other texts."Later when the Macedonians conquered Egypt, the use of the Demotic script gained a new form:"Middle Demotic (circa 400–30 BC) is the stage of writing used during the Ptolemaic Period. From the fourth century BC onwards, Demotic held a higher status, as may be seen from its increasing use for literary and religious texts. By the end of the third century BC, Greek Koine was more important as it was the administrative language of the country; Demotic contracts lost most of their legal force unless there was a note in Greek of being registered with the authorities."
Again here we are talking about the SCRIPT, not a Demotic language. So the Coptic language must have used this script in those times, as well as other languages like the Persian, as we saw before, and I guess the
Macedonian as well. As for the "Greek" Koine, we'll see. There is another story to tell there.Now, the work of the two academics from the Republic of Macedonia, point at yet another possibility.

Let us focus on the 7 symbols from the Demotic SCRIPT, not the Coptic language, because it doesn't mean that the Demotic Script was used with the Coptic language at that time. It was used with the Persian language before. The 7 symbols from the Demotic script that we are talking about here, are those symbols that have survived in the contemporary Coptic script as well,(or at least the Coptic script of the 18th century) and served the French scientist to decipher the Hieroglyphs. So they used the Coptic, both script and language, of the time to help decipher and read the Egyptian hieroglyphs. Boshevski and Tentov managed to decode almost 25 symbols for consonants and a smaller number of pictographs too. If you teach yourself to their system, and read the
middle text of the Rosetta stone with the Demotic script, you would come across phases like: "nemu komu bogove divejej". Amazingly all these words can be understood by the modern-day speaker of Macedonian.
They mean:"to whom the gods admire", and it is title given to Ptolemy of Macedonian descent, coming from the region of modern-day Bitola, in the Republic of Macedonia. The words from the middle text of the
Rosetta stone have not been deciphered by any other Demotists yet.

There were attempts, some even ridiculous, but this sounds plausible. If Egypt was ruled by the Macedonians at that time, why wouldn't they use their own words with the available script to at least honor the title they carried, after all they were the rulers. And could it be that those words, might have survived somehow in the modern day Slavic Macedonian?

How I wonder?

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 21:43

about Egyptian scripts:

Eventually the most cursive form of Hieratic became the Demotic which gives no hint of its Hieroglyphic origin. By 600 BCE, the Hieratic, which was used to write documents on papyri, was retained only for religious writing. The Demotic became the every-day script, used for accounting, writing down literature, writings, etc. The following Demotic inscription is from the famous Rosetta Stone:

http://www.ancientscripts.com/egyptian.html - http://www.ancientscripts.com/egyptian.html

It bears NO RESEMBLANCE whatsoever to the hieroglyphic script. In fact, it is so cursive that it resembles more like the Aramaic scripts used around the Fertile Crescent at this time.

The last Egyptian inscription dates from the 5th century CE. By this time, Coptic, a Greek-based alphabet with some demotic signs, became the primary writing system used in Egypt.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 21:49

This is an extract from a translation of the Greek text from the Rosetta stone:

"This decree shall be inscribed on a stela of hard stone in sacred and NATIVE and Greek characters".

This is what the British Museum translated from the original Greek text of the Rosetta stone:

��and the decree should be written on a stela of hard stone, in sacred writing, DOCUMENT writing (!?!), and Greek writing, and it should be set up in the first-class temples, the second-class temples and the third-class temples, next to the statue of the King, living forever.�
Translation by R.S. Simpson
Revised version from R.S. Simpson, Demotic Grammar in the Ptolemaic Sacerdotal Decrees (Oxford, Griffith Institute, 1996), pp. 258-71
The BRITISH MUSEUM's website:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/article_index/r/the_rosetta_stone_translation.aspx - http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights...

On the other hand if you check p.40 of this document:

http://www.exploringmacedonia.com/wbstorage/Files/Roseta_Stone-26-2-2005-Boshevski-Tentov-english.pdf

You can see that in the Demotic text the words that were used by the "natives", were actually these:(I will write this with the English script so that you can read it, however it may not have any meaning to you as yet. The star* represents the "schwa" of the English as in "bird", "flirt", "hurt". The arrow^ after Z^, reads like in "television", "pleasure", "treasure".)
"B*de na shi navezene moi naz*ve gospodalto igje moi naz*v* gospodalto, moi naz^eve gospodalta na danaive nareitsa v*v shi tsato."
In modern Macedonian:
"Da bide na kamen(shi) navezeno" means "to be on stone written". Only "KAMEN" is different even thou "SHI" exists in some dialects even today.
Then: "gospodalto" has survived in modern day Macedonian as well, and we have "gospodari" meaning "masters" today. It is almost the same phonemic structure that we use today. This is of course if you read the Demotic text with the instructions given previously (asymmetrical and symmetrical and pictographs).
Then: in modern Macedonian "moite zivi gospodari" for "moi naz^eve gospodalta" from the Demotic text, meaning: "the Living Masters"
Then: for "na danaive nareitsa v*v shi tsato", in modern Macedonian we have: " na danajcive narecjeto vo kamen tv*rd", meaning "in the dialect of the Danainas in a hard stone".

There is a strong resemblance between the two forms! Ancient and Modern Macedonian! What is in hiding here?

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 10:29

The attempt of these pseudo-scientists (they are not have not a any single connection with the epigraphology or the linguistic) to connect the modern Slavonic Macedonian - a Slavic language related to Bulgarian - is rediculus. These 2 university professors in electrical engineering from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skopje - Skopje , operating under the auspices of the government funded Faculty of Electrical Engineering in Skopje and presented to the official http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Academy_of_Sciences_and_Arts - FYROMacedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts , are claiming that the "Demotic" script is, in fact, a text related to the "old Slavonic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language - Macedonian language " and is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language - Ancient Macedonian .

This contradicts all mainstream interpretations of the Stone and the mainstream scientific evidence that Ancient Macedonian was not a Slavic language and, not least, that Slavic speaking peoples did not reach the Balkan peninsula until the 6th Century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era - CE . This theory is also promoted by the authorities and church in Skopje as a "2,200 Years Old Script and Text in the Macedonian Language".

The Rosetta Stone is a stone with writing on it in two languages (Egyptian and Greek), using three scripts (hieroglyphic, demotic and Greek).

Rosetta Stone is written in three scripts because when it was written, there were three scripts being used in Egypt.

The first was hieroglyphic which was the script used for important or religious documents.

The second was demotic which was the common script of Egypt.

The third was Greek which was the language of the rulers of Egypt at that time.

53. and each year; and in order to make those who are in Egypt to know [why it is that the Egyptians pay honour�as it is most right and proper to do�to the god who maketh himself beautiful, whose deeds are beautiful, the priests have decreed] that this DECREE shall [be inscribed] upon a stele of hard stone in the writing of the words of the gods, and the writing of the books, and in the writing of HAUI-NEBUI (i.e., Greeks), and it shall be set up in the sanctuaries in the temples which [are called] by his name, of the first, second, and third [class], near the statue of the HORUS, the King of the South and North Ptolemy, ever-living, beloved of Ptaḥ, the god who maketh himself manifest, whose deeds are beautiful.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/trs/trs07.htm - from The Nile, Notes for Travellers in Egypt, by E. A. Wallis Budge, 9th Edition, London, Thos. Cook and Son, [1905], pp. 199-211.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/trs/trs07.htm -

This pseudo-essay from these "amazing professors" is a great example of the Macedonism, a political ultra-nationalistic moovement used to refer to a set of ideas regarded as characteristic of ethnic Slavmacedonian nationalism. In my blog I have already explain as about this nationalist ideology and you can read http://modern-macedonian-history.blogspot.com/2007/11/macedonism-ultra-nationalilst-ideology.html - here

-------------

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 11:49

This is even shown on their national tv channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wad1uP191Ns - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wad1uP191Ns

However, it seems that they are doing that by themselves since the govenment wont help them and wont verify their statements.

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 12:12

Originally posted by Flipper

This is even shown on their national tv channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wad1uP191Ns - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wad1uP191Ns

However, it seems that they are doing that by themselves since the govenment wont help them and wont verify their statements.

Nope Flipper. I disagree.

Look the web site that host this pseudo-scientific Macedonist essay.

http://rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk/ - http://rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk/

Is from the University of Skopje and as you know this University is funded and monitor from the FYROM government.

-------------

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 13:19

FYROM is blacklisted guys.

If anything that can be debated, is the evidence or lack there of put forth, just stay clear of the politics

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 13:22

Original message:

The Rosetta Stone is a stone with writing on it in two languages (Egyptian and Greek), using three scripts (hieroglyphic, demotic and Greek).

Rosetta Stone is written in three scripts because when it was written, there were three scripts being used in Egypt.

The first was hieroglyphic which was the script used for important or religious documents.
The second was demotic which was the common script of Egypt.

The third was Greek which was the language of the rulers of Egypt at that time.

The Demotic script has not been decoded yet, because it is not used with the Egyptian, or Coptic as you may call it.

It was used with the langauge of the Living Masters, that is what it says when you read it with the instructions given by the research of the two Macedonian scientists.

I am sorry if this shakes the ground for the Greek propaganda a bit, but it is a fact and one cannot look aside if one considers him/herself a scientist.

The common Egyptian at that time was already oppressed by the Persians from before. The Hieroglyphs were still in use with the Egyptian langauge, or the Coptic as it was known later on. But the Demotic was in use by the Persian rulers and the Macedonian rulers. The Greek script was intended for the Danaians, or those who used the Koine as the language of officeal correspondence.

FYROM does not exist. It is Republic of Macedonia, recognized as such by more than 120 memebers of the UN. So please do not offend me in such a way. This name dispute with Greece is an insane political fiasco and historyhas nothing to do with it.

I do not want to be offensive but how would it sound to the Serbains if we called them Former Yugoslav Republic of Serbia, or to Greeks if we used Former Ottoman Republic of Greece.

Leave this issue to politics. Let us debate history here, please.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 13:34

The misconception rises whith the two languages and three scripts. Why two scripts for a single Egyptian langauge?

The translation of the Demotic text points at this possibility: that there were three langauges, one the Egyptian written in the Sacred script, second the langauge of the Living Masters written with the Demotic script, and third the langauge of the Danaians written with the Greek script.

There are misconceptions about the Greek Koine as well. It is also refered to as demotic or the langauge of the common people, and we know that it was totally the oposit. Koine was the language of the 'elite', used for administrative purposes in the whole of the ancient world, it wasn't a script or language that belonged to the ethnic Greek tribes, as it is the case today. It was rather used by many parties. Romans use it, and the Macedoninas as well! The common people could not understand it. The proof is in the works of Quintus Curtis Rufus. He describes the trial of Alexander's friend Philotas and mentions that Philotas decided to be interrogated in Koine, and no his own mother tongue, which was seen as an act of treason by the Macedonians.

So history of langauges and scripts is a bit ambiguous due to the political developments of mroe recent times. However, science should look at these issues from a more objective point of view and not let politics influence the research.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 13:37

Originally posted by Leonidas

FYROM is blacklisted guys.

If anything that can be debated, is the evidence or lack there of put forth, just stay clear of the politics

Yes we know but the starter of this thread forgets to mention the initial source of this pseudo-essay. Is the FYROM Skopje of University.

And for the story is good to know who and what is behind of these falsificated essays that make our world bad and worst.

-------------

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 13:44

I checked the blacklisted issues and it sort of struck me as unfair!

I wonder why is it so strange for young countries such as Macedonia, Armenia and others to conduct researches in history and reveal new evidence that might help everyone gain a better perspective on historical developments. After all we are aware of the historical truth represented by the winner only!

How about taking a different perspective and hear the story of the oppressed for a change?

This research has a strong argument and it fills a gap in the history of the Mediterrannean people. I insist on debating it publicly without any restraints, and with respect to the histories represented by the other modern nations in this region.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 13:56

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

The translation of the Demotic text points at this possibility: that there were three langauges, one the Egyptian written in the Sacred script, second the langauge of the Living Masters written with the Demotic script, and third the langauge of the Danaians written with the Greek script.

Nowhere mention the word Danaian in Rosetta as the two wannabe professors claim. Reminds afrocentrist falsifications!!!

In Egypt Demotic mention the word HAUI-NEBUI ...the rulers

and in the Ruler language (3nd) mention....

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/main?url=oi%3Fikey%3D219956%26bookid%3D376%26region%3D11%26subregion%3D52 - http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/main?url=oi%3Fikey%3D219956%26bookid%3D376%26region%3D11%26subregion%3D52

mean....Greek .....!!!!

The Inferiority complex of these FYROM proffesors is without end!!

-------------

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 13:56

Original message:

The Rosetta Stone was written in all three scripts so that the priests, government officials and rulers of Egypt could read what it said. Here is the last translation of Rosetta Stone that approve the above...
53. and each year; and in order to make those who are in Egypt to know [why it is that the Egyptians pay honour—as it is most right and proper to do—to the god who maketh himself beautiful, whose deeds are beautiful, the priests have decreed] that this DECREE shall [be inscribed] upon a stele of hard stone in the writing of the words of the gods, and the writing of the books, and in the writing of HAUI-NEBUI (i.e., Greeks), and it shall be set up in the sanctuaries in the temples which [are called] by his name, of the first, second, and third [class], near the statue of the HORUS, the King of the South and North Ptolemy, ever-living, beloved of Ptaḥ, the god who maketh himself manifest, whose deeds are beautiful.

from The Nile, Notes for Travellers in Egypt, by E. A. Wallis Budge, 9th Edition, London, Thos. Cook and Son, [1905], pp. 199-211.

This is a translation of the Hieroglyphic text. Read well and do not create confusion:

"TRANSLATION OF THE HIEROGLYPHIC TEXT OF THE DECREE OF THE PRIESTS OF MEMPHIS, AS FOUND ON THE ROSETTA STONE 1 AND ON THE STELE OF DAMANH�R. THE DECREE WAS PROMULGATED IN THE 9TH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF PTOLEMY V. EPIPHANES."

We are discussing the DECODING OF THE MIDDLE (DEMOTIC) TEXT HERE!

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:01

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

I checked the blacklisted issues and it sort of struck me as unfair!

I wonder why is it so strange for young countries such as Macedonia, Armenia and others to conduct researches in history and reveal new evidence that might help everyone gain a better perspective on historical developments. After all we are aware of the historical truth represented by the winner only!

How about taking a different perspective and hear the story of the oppressed for a change?

This research has a strong argument and it fills a gap in the history of the Mediterrannean people. I insist on debating it publicly without any restraints, and with respect to the histories represented by the other modern nations in this region.

Then you will do it someplace else, as debating that subject here will get you banned in a heartbeat.

Go ahead, make my day.

-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:01

Have you checked the work ot the two respected scientists? And please keep insult away from this forum!

It doesn't say Danaian or Danaan in the other two texts, but it says in the middle text. The Demotic text was the original, as affirmed by the French and British scientists who worked on the first translations of the texts. The Demotic text is much more detailed than the other two texts.

I suggest you study the issue closely before you post any more insulting replies!!!

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:02

Why don't you study the research and then debate with arguments!

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:06

The middle text with the Demotic script has not been translated yet! The work of the two academics from the Republic of Macedonia is a recent study in this area, and it is worth taking a look if history means somthing to you!

The Demotic script on the other hand has been used with other languages as it is the case with Latin today! It can be traced as far as Russia in the 10th century.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:14

The middle text has inscription that if read well sounds like this (in original pronunciation): "nemu komu bogove divejej", in modern Macedonian:"nemu komu bogovite mu se diveat", meaning "whom the Gods admire".

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:18

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

The middle text with the Demotic script has not been translated yet! The work of the two academics from the Republic of Macedonia is a recent study in this area, and it is worth taking a look if history means somthing to you!

The Demotic script on the other hand has been used with other languages as it is the case with Latin today! It can be traced as far as Russia in the 10th century.

The discovery of the Stone was not made public until September 1799, in an article printed in the Courrier de l'Egypte. It was shipped to Cairo in mid-August, and became an object of study at the Institute. Jean-Joseph Marcel and Remi Raige were able to identify the unknown cursive script, Demotic, but they were unable to read it. Copies of the scripts were made by the lithographers Marcel and A. Galland, who covered the Stone's surface with printer's ink and lay sheets of paper over it and used rollers to obtain an impression. Several sheets were sent to scholars throughout Europe, and two copies were presented to citizen Du Theil of the Institute Nationale de Paris by General Charles-Fran�ois-Joseph Dugua (former Commandant of Cairo) on his return from Egypt. A French translation of the text was made by Du Theil, revealing that the Stone "was a monument to the gratitude of some priests of Alexandria, or some neighboring place, towards Ptolemy Epiphanes." A Latin translation was made in 1801, and English in 1802. In 1802, a French Orientalist, A.I. Sylvestre de Sacy began to decipher the Demotic text. Equivalents for proper names found in the Greek section were identified in Demotic.

It seems your "Scientists" are not aware of the decipherment made for almost 200 years ago.

For further reading: Andrews, Carol. The Rosetta Stone British Museum Press, London, 1981

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:19

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

The middle text has inscription that if read well sounds like this (in original pronunciation): "nemu komu bogove divejej", in modern Macedonian:"nemu komu bogovite mu se diveat", meaning "whom the Gods admire".

And that is ofcourse irrelavant compared to the content of the other two texts. Think a little bit... The translation of Tentov is not a match.

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:21

Demotic Egyptian is the cursive form of hieroglyphic writing.Something that forget to mention these pseudo-scientists of the FYROM in the wannabe essay.

Wallis Budge write in "The Rosetta Stone" book .....

The bilingual (not trilingual) inscription on the Rosetta Stone is written from right to left in the two forms of Egyptian writing and in Greek. It was the fashion at one time to compare the inscription on the Rosetta Stone with the great Inscription which Darius I had cut upon the rock at Bahistun in Persia, and to describe each of these documents as trilingual. But it must be remembered that the Decree on the Rosetta Stone is bilingual, though written in three kinds of writing, and that the Bahistun Inscription is trilingual, and written in three languages (Persian, Susian, and Babylonian) in three different kinds of cuneiform character.

"Academic American Encyclopedia" in Page 160 mention....

At the top of the Rosetta Stone are Egyptian hieroglyphics, in the middle is Egyptian demotic script, and at the bottom is Greek.

and in British museum, the place that is now located the Rosetta stone

The decree is inscribed on the stone three times, in hieroglyphic (suitable for a priestly decree), demotic (the native script used for daily purposes), and Greek (the language of the administration).

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/aes/t/the_rosetta_stone.aspx - http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/aes/t/the_rosetta_stone.aspx

-------------

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:22

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

The Demotic text was the original, as affirmed by the French and British scientists who worked on the first translations of the texts.

As you said it...But look what the French and Brittish scientists said about it above. Wink

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:25

Akritas, stop stirring the pot. If this thread continues in this direction I'll lock it down until you folks decide to comply with the CoC.

-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:27

Of course! But these were the translations of the Hieroglyphic and Greek Texts. Not the Demotic text!

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:30

It still doesn't say that the "native" was the native of the rulers or the people of Egypt. The Demotic script was used in Egypt from before, but it wasn't used only with the Egyptian. In our case it was used with the langauge of the living masters. At least that is what the Demotic text states.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:32

I think you are mixing the term SCRIPT and LANGUAGE! The Demotic script was not used with Egyptian langauge. It was used with the langauge of the rulers, and as we know the rulers were the Ptolemy dynasty of Macedonian descent! So which ruler would conquer a country and use the langauge of the conquered for his decrees.

Afte all this is a recent study and it is still open for debate. However, not a political one!

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:33

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Of course! But these were the translations of the Hieroglyphic and Greek Texts. Not the Demotic text!

Read again my previous posts. I posted that the demotic text was deciphered 200 years ago.

Anyway, I will comply to the moderators request. This is a history forum and the specific matter is solved by the historian community way before Tentov & CO.

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:33

The translation of Tentov is even more detailed than the other two texts, which is logical taking into account that it was the original text, as you have confirmed!

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:35

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

The translation of Tentov is even more detailed than the other two texts, which is logical taking into account that it was the original text, as you have confirmed!

Do not mix detailed with different...

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:35

Originally posted by red clay

Akritas, stop stirring the pot. If this thread continues in this direction I'll lock it down until you folks decide to comply with the CoC.

Red Cly I bring sources, known academaic sources, and not sources that claim that were Slavic languages in Ptolemaic Era.

Here one more from Harvard University....

A pharaoh's forgotten decree, cut in granite in three scripts--Egyptian hieroglyphs, Egyptian demotic, and ancient Greek--the Rosetta Stone promised to unlock the door to the language of ancient Egypt and its 3,000 years of civilization, if only it could be deciphered.

-------------

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:47

Only words and phrases have been translated from the middle text. The research of Tentov and Boshevski gives a whole range of syntax deriving from the Demotic script. I think you should extend your research.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:50

Again you are pointing at the use of a SCRIPT not a LANGUAGE. If I write something like this:"MAKEDONIJA VE SAKA"! Is this Latin?

The Demotic script has been used long before the Macedonians conquered Egypt. It suffered changes and it went through several stages:

Early Demotic

Early Demotic (often referred to by the German term Fr�hdemotisch) developed in Lower Egypt during the later part of the 25th Dynasty, particularly on stelae from the Serapeum at Saqqara. It is generally dated between 650 and 400 BC as most texts written in Early Demotic are dated to the 26th Dynasty and the following Persian period (the 27th Dynasty).

Middle (Ptolemaic) Demotic

Middle Demotic (circa 400–30 BC) is the stage of writing used during the Ptolemaic Period. From the fourth century BC onwards, Demotic held a higher status, as may be seen from its increasing use for literary and religious texts.

Late (Roman) Demotic

From the beginning of Roman rule of Egypt, Demotic was progressively less used in public life. There are, however, a number of literary texts written in Late Demotic (circa 30 BC–452 AD), especially from the first and second centuries AD, though the quantity of all Demotic texts decreased rapidly towards the end of the second century. After that, Demotic was only used for a few ostraca, subscriptions to Greek texts, mummy labels, and graffiti. The last dated example of the Demotic script is dated to 11 December 452 AD, and consists of a graffito on the walls of the temple of Isis on Philae.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:51

The Ptolemaic Demotic was quite different and sicne the Macedonians started using it with their own langauge it became totally obscure for the people of Egypt, which caused the appearance of the Coptic script later on.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 14:54

Yes the source for this thread is the official standpoint of the Republic of Macedonia's MANU (Macedonian Academy for Arts and Sciences), which is an internationally accepted institution.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 15:08

Dear Petro...

We know about Tentovs research since he first published it. We are well aware of it.

Now, I think you fail to comprehend that the demotic has been already deciphered and is Egyptian not Slavic! That means Egyptian language with Egyptian Demotic letters!

Now please, read again the neutral sources and foremost the ones from the Brittish museum that exhibits the stele!!! They say plain and clear the language is Egyptian not just the script!

I think i'm pretty clear. If you again do not understand this I will start to think you're not willing to.

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 15:10

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Yes the source for this thread is the official standpoint of the Republic of Macedonia's MANU (Macedonian Academy for Arts and Sciences), which is an internationally accepted institution.

Great, then if it is so i may I post other sources from the university of Skopje? I have an archive of books and translation from your own books. Even your own serious academics use the term "Hellenistic"!!!

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 15:15

However Flipper that is not the point here! We are debating the decoding of the middle text of the Rosetta stone not the origins of the Macedonian slavs!

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 15:17

I have checked the British Museum and they offer a translation of the Rosetta Hierogliphyc and Greek texts. The Demotic is negleckted! There are attmepts to translate it but no-one has managed to give a full translation of it! That was my primary focus!

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 15:22

In 1814, the Briton Thomas Young finished translating the enchorial (demotic) text, and began work on the hieroglyphic script. From 1822 to 1824, Jean-Fran�ois Champollion greatly expanded on this work, and he is known as the translator of the Rosetta Stone.

Please note the difference between the demotic Koine and Demotic Egyptian!

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 15:24

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

I have checked the British Museum and they offer a translation of the Rosetta Hierogliphyc and Greek texts. The Demotic is negleckted! There are attmepts to translate it but no-one has managed to give a full translation of it! That was my primary focus!

A.I. Sylvestre was the first man to decypher it in the 19th century. I mentioned it before.

There is a wide range of identified texts in demotic and in that list the Rosetta stone is amongst them: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/DEPT/RA/ABZU/DEMOTIC_WWW.HTML - http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/DEPT/RA/ABZU/DEMOTIC_WWW.HTML

Note again...If the middle text was not decyphered, then the rest of the texts would not have been decyphered as well since the rosseta stone was the first billingual finding that helped the historians to get a grip on the egyptian language.

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 15:24

Thomas Young translated the demotic Greek first and then began to work on the hieroglyphic script. The 7 letters which were used to decode the hiroglyphs were those that survived in the Coptic script not the Demotic text. How else would they have used the Coptic to decode the hieroglyphs?

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 15:25

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

In 1814, the Briton Thomas Young finished translating the enchorial (demotic) text, and began work on the hieroglyphic script. From 1822 to 1824, Jean-Fran�ois Champollion greatly expanded on this work, and he is known as the translator of the Rosetta Stone.

Please note the difference between the demotic Koine and Demotic Egyptian!

What are you talking about? Demotic Koine? Confused

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 15:26

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Thomas Young translated the demotic Greek first and then began to work on the hieroglyphic script. The 7 letters which were used to decode the hiroglyphs were those that survived in the Coptic script not the Demotic text. How else would they have used the Coptic to decode the hieroglyphs?

My answer to your question is above...We managed to write at the same time.

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 15:27

The hierogliphs were decoded on the base of the Greek text not the Demotic text. The Coptic was used to give sounding to the hieroglyphs. The Demotic script has been used with many langauges as it is with Latin today.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 15:31

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

The hierogliphs were decoded on the base of the Greek text not the Demotic text. The Coptic was used to give sounding to the hieroglyphs. The Demotic script has been used with many langauges as it is with Latin today.

And the Demotic text was decyphered with the help of the Greek text.

The content in demotic is richer as we said before. However, it has been translated. You have the full translation here. The texts in Italics are the phrases found in the demotic text. The rest is the same content.

Do you still insist it has not been decyphered?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/trs/trs07.htm#fr_79 - http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/trs/trs07.htm#fr_79

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 15:58

Yes demotic Koine! As opposed to Demotic (with a capital D) for the Egyptian! The koine Greek was considered as demotic (of the people) as well.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 16:00

This link you posted is a translation of the HIEROGLYPHIC TEXT not the DEMOTIC TEXT!

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/trs/trs07.htm#fr_79

Read the title:
TRANSLATION OF THE HIEROGLYPHIC TEXT OF THE DECREE OF THE PRIESTS OF MEMPHIS, AS FOUND ON THE ROSETTA STONE 1 AND ON THE STELE OF DAMANH�R. THE DECREE WAS PROMULGATED IN THE 9TH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF PTOLEMY V. EPIPHANES.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 16:02

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Yes demotic Koine! As opposed to Demotic (with a capital D) for the Egyptian! The koine Greek was considered as demotic (of the people) as well.

Ok, the Koine signifies the same thing actually. Anyway, in other posts you said koine was for the Elite only. Now you revert this in your statement and make it "of the people".

Did you see the text where the egyptian demotic is actually translated?

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 16:03

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

This link you posted is a translation of the HIEROGLYPHIC TEXT not the DEMOTIC TEXT!

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/trs/trs07.htm#fr_79

Read the title:
TRANSLATION OF THE HIEROGLYPHIC TEXT OF THE DECREE OF THE PRIESTS OF MEMPHIS, AS FOUND ON THE ROSETTA STONE 1 AND ON THE STELE OF DAMANH�R. THE DECREE WAS PROMULGATED IN THE 9TH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF PTOLEMY V. EPIPHANES.

See the citation...The text in Italic is the additional phrases in Demotic.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/trs/trs07.htm#fr_78 - 203:1 The lines in italics are taken from the Demotic version.

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 16:03

The italicas are just bits of the text and it doesn't say they were used from the Demotic text!

Tentov and Boshevski on the other hand have translated most of the Demotic text and it is very rich and more detailed than even this version you posted here!

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 16:04

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

The italicas are just bits of the text and it doesn't say they were used from the Demotic text!

There you go...Scroll down

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/trs/trs07.htm#fr_78 - 203:1 The lines in italics are taken from the Demotic version.

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 16:04

I am not reverting it! The official Greek science classifies the Koine Greek as demotic. I insist on seeing it as the language of the elite! Or administrativ language of the ancient world, like English today!

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 16:11

The fact that the Demotic script was not translated as a whole relies on the fact that it wasn't used with the Egyptian langauge. It was rather used with the langauge of the rulers, the Macedonians.

The fact that no-one can read the Demotic text is another asset to this theory. The work of Tentov and Boshevski alloow the student of the middle text to read it as well as understand it!

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 16:23

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

I am not reverting it! The official Greek science classifies the Koine Greek as demotic. I insist on seeing it as the language of the elite! Or administrativ language of the ancient world, like English today!

Official Greek science? Is there such thing? No, it is the world history community that classifies Koine as "demotic". Koine means "common". As I said somewhere else, if coine was for the elite then it would not have been used in theatrical works where common people attended and not only the elite. The dedications of common people would not be eather in Koine. Furthermore, you can see that non native speakers make breathing mistakes (e.g Syria) when writting while Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks don't. Wink

Obviously the same happens today. Even though my english is good, both written and pronounced, I'm sure i'm doing mistakes a native speaker won't do.

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 16:23

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

The fact that the Demotic script was not translated as a whole relies on the fact that it wasn't used with the Egyptian langauge. It was rather used with the langauge of the rulers, the Macedonians.

The fact that no-one can read the Demotic text is another asset to this theory. The work of Tentov and Boshevski alloow the student of the middle text to read it as well as understand it!

Oh, really?

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/DEPT/RA/ABZU/DEMOTIC_WWW.HTML - http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/DEPT/RA/ABZU/DEMOTIC_WWW.HTML

Obviously you're not aware that all demotic texts available are in Egyptian. It is not just the Rosetta stone.

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 16:43

Here's how demotic is read:

Here is the demotic dictionary from the Oriental Institute:

http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/projects/dem/ - http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/projects/dem/

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 16:54

Flip do you know how they call the ancient Egyptians these pseudo-scientists in the Slavmacedonian ?

gjupatsite=gypsies!!!!

http://rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk/the_nickname_of_the_emperor.html - http://rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk/the_nickname_of_the_emperor.html

When is known that (and) in the ancient Egyptian language identified as Kemet. Masr is the Arabic Egyptian and Kimi in the Coptic. The Greek word of the Egypt is A�gyptos (Αίγυπτος ) had evolved as a compound from Aegaeon uptiōs (Aἰγαίου ὑπτίως), meaning "below the Aegean" as Strabo mentioned .These guys translate words as they want and of course in modern meaning.

-------------

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 18:50

Koine (Κοινή), Greek for "common", is a term which had been previously applied by ancient scholars to several forms of Greek speech. A school of scholars such as Apollonius Dyscolus and Aelius Herodianus maintained the term Koine to refer to the Proto-Greek language, while others would use it to refer to any vernacular form of Greek speech which differed from the literary language[1]. When Koine gradually became a language of literature, some people distinguished it in two forms: Hellenic (Greek) as the literary post-Classic form, and Koine (common) as the spoken popular form[1]. Others chose to refer to Koine as the Alexandrian dialect (Περὶ τῆς Ἀλεξανδρέων διαλέκτου), meaning the dialect of Alexandria (a term often used by modern Classicists).

This is what the official science says about Koine!

Roots

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 18:52

"Gypsy" comes from "Egypt"! It is so logical. Phoneticly speaking! The fact it is being used to identify the Roma population these days is an ambiguity of another scope!

Take a look at this:

"The Coptic script takes its name from the Egyptian Christians, the Copts. Strangely enough, the word "Copt" was originally came from the Greek word "aiguptios", meaning 'Egyptian'. It was shortened to "guptios", then transmitted into Arabic as "qopt", and finally back into Egyptian as "coptos". As the name implies, the Coptic script represented the Egyptian language just as Egyptian hieroglyphics had done for 3000 years before."

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 18:54

Flipper:

Could you please show me a line-to-line translation of the Demotic script as well as its phonemic reading, symbol-by-symbol?

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 19:10

Flipper Please! What is your position? It is so obvious! Let me put it this way:

The Rosetta stone was written during Ptolemy rule. It was a decree given by the Macedonian king of Egypt at the time. He used three scripts and three languages to announce his decree: the Hyerogliphs for the Egyptian elite (meaning the priests), the Demotic script used with his "native" tongue for his Macedonians, and the Greek text with the Koine for the administrators of his kingdom, among which the Danaans or the Greeks as we tend to call these tribes today!

Why would he write a decree in Egyptian twice?

On the other hand, the Demotic script being the script developed in Egypt and used by the Egyptians, was also in use by other people, like the Persians, the Romans even, and there are findings that point that it was used in Europe as well.

So the Demotic of the Ptolemy era was rather different from the Demotic of the Persian era, and even more different from the form used before that.

The fact that the Demotic script has not been translated fully and no-one is able to read it, phonetically, word by wopd, proves that it wasn't used with the Coptic, but with another language probably that of the rulers. Now the question is what was the language of the rulers?

The Macedonians who started using the Demotic script with their own language different from the Koine,( NOTE: we have a numerous accounts from ancient authors that the Macedonians spoke a barbaric language not the Hellenic! Take Demosthenes for a reference!), so this intrusion confused the Coptic language, and since the Hieroglyphic was too acstract for use, the Coptic people devised a new script, based on the Greek alphabet.

This new script used letters from the Hierogliphic script, not the Demotic, in its cursive form. These were those 7 letters that enabled the French linguist to decode the Hieroglyphic text based on the Coptic sounding.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 19:23

The fact that the Demotic script has not been translated fully and no-one is able to read it, phonetically, word by wopd, proves that it wasn't used with the Coptic, but with another language probably that of the rulers. Now the question is what was the language of the rulers?

I would like to see your source for this. I have spent some time surfing on this, everything I have found contradicts your statement. Demotic has been fully translated.

As a matter of fact, I would like to see your sources on a lot of this. You guys are playing fast and loose with subjects that are well researched and documented, lets see some of it.

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 19:26

This is what I read in the site you quoted:

http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/projects/dem/

"Demotic is a very cursive script and reflects extensive differences in handwriting; these differences, in turn, reflect different types of texts (private letters, economic and legal documents, administrative documents, religious, literary and scientific texts, etc.), different proveniences of texts (especially noticeable are differences between texts from the Fayum and area around Cairo and those from the Thebaid), and different dates of texts (Demotic was used for a thousand years from the 7th century B.C. until the 3rd century of our era [occasional graffiti occur even later]). Thus, the Dictionary must show actual orthography for words cited."

Then I searched for Rosetta stone, and it was listed under "problematic entries".

I made a research into this and this is what it says:

http://oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/02-03_Demotic.pdf

"I have, over the years, talked about different aspects of dictionary making and of the range of
vocabulary attested in Demotic. Many of you may find it interesting to know how the Egyptians
conceptualized their own language/writing systems. At the end of the Decree of Canopus, one of
the so-called “trilingual” decrees set up by the Egyptian priesthood to honor various Ptolemaic
rulers, it is stated that various officials are supposed to write the text of the decree on a monument
of stone or copper to be posted in the open areas of the first, second, and third class
temples of Egypt. It further indicates that the text is to be written in the “writing of the ‘house of
life,’ document-writing, and the writing of the Greeks.” The “house of life” was an institution
associated with temples, serving as a scriptorium, library, and center for performance of rituals.
The writing of the “house of life” was hieroglyphs, the script used in the topmost inscription of
the trilingual. In the Rosetta Stone, another of these trilingual decrees in honor of Ptolemaic rulers,
the hieroglyphs are called the “script of the divine word.” The Demotic section, in the
middle of the decree, is here, and elsewhere, referred to as “document-writing.” This name reflects
the fact that Demotic, when it first came into use, was used exclusively for personal documents
(letters, contracts, and so on)."

We are talking about a possibility that the Demotic was used with the "native" language of the Ptolemaic rulers at that time.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 19:55

Original message:

"The fact that the Demotic script has not been translated fully and no-one is able to read it, phonetically, word by wopd, proves that it wasn't used with the Coptic, but with another language probably that of the rulers. Now the question is what was the language of the rulers?

I have spent some time surfing on this, everything I have found contradicts your statement. Demotic has been fully translated.
As a matter of fact, I would like to see your sources on a lot of this. You guys are playing fast and loose with subjects that are well researched and documented, lets see some of it."

You say that the Demotic has been fully translated. Not according to the Demotic Dictionary of the University of Chicago. The Demotic from the Rosetta stone is listed under "problematic entries".

I do not understand! It is the opposite from what you claim Red Clay. Take a look:

1. We cannot find a full translation of the Demotic text from the Rosetta stone.

2. No-one can read it phonetically!

3. There are indications that it was a script used for personal correspondence.

4. We know it was the original text on the Rosetta stone, so it seems that the Ptolemy was using this script to announce the decree, to be later translated in the Hieroglyphic and Greek text.

5. We have seen that the Demotic script was in use by many languages. Why not Macedonian, the language of the rulers of Egypt at that time?

What is in the hiding here?

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 20:02

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Koine (Κοινή), Greek for "common", is a term which had been previously applied by ancient scholars to several forms of Greek speech. A school of scholars such as Apollonius Dyscolus and Aelius Herodianus maintained the term Koine to refer to the Proto-Greek language, while others would use it to refer to any vernacular form of Greek speech which differed from the literary language[1]. When Koine gradually became a language of literature, some people distinguished it in two forms: Hellenic (Greek) as the literary post-Classic form, and Koine (common) as the spoken popular form[1]. Others chose to refer to Koine as the Alexandrian dialect (Περὶ τῆς Ἀλεξανδρέων διαλέκτου), meaning the dialect of Alexandria (a term often used by modern Classicists).

This is what the official science says about Koine!

Roots

I didn't say the opposite...But why don't you post the link you got it from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek

It has more interresting things like:

History
Koine Greek arose as a common dialect within the armies of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great - Alexander the Great ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek#_note-andriotes - [1]}. As the allied http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece - Greek states under the leadership of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon - Macedon conquered and colonised the known world, their newly formed common dialect was spoken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt - Egypt to the fringes of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India - India ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek#_note-andriotes - [1]}. Though elements of Koine Greek took shape during the late http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Greece - Classic Era , the Post-Classic period of Greek dates from the death of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great - Alexander the Great in 323 BC, when cultures under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic - Hellenistic sway in turn began to influence the language. The passage into the next period, known as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Greek - Medieval Greek , dates from the foundation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople - Constantinople by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I - Constantine I in 330. The Post-Classic period of Greek thus refers to the creation and evolution of Koine Greek throughout the entire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic - Hellenistic and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome - Roman eras of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_history - Greek history until the start of the Middle Ages^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek#_note-andriotes - [1]}.

Interresting isn't it? Common dialect within the armies of Alexander, the allied Greek city states etc... Big%20smile

In the roots section...

The linguistic roots of the Common Greek dialect had been unclear since ancient times. During the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic - Hellenistic age, most scholars thought of Koine as the result of the mixture of the four main http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek - Ancient Greek dialects, "ἡ ἐκ τῶν τεττάρων συνεστῶσα" (the composition of the Four).

Composition of the four not fourty as you said before LOL

Which are the "four" main dialects? Attic/Ionic, Doric, Aeolic and Arcadocypriot.

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 20:22

Flipper's message:

"Obviously the same happens today. Even though my english is good, both written and pronounced, I'm sure i'm doing mistakes a native speaker won't do."

You are MAKING a mistake Flipper!

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 20:25

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Flipper's message:

"Obviously the same happens today. Even though my english is good, both written and pronounced, I'm sure i'm doing mistakes a native speaker won't do."

You are MAKING a mistake Flipper!

Please use the Quote button when quoting someone's reply; it will make it much easier to read and clearer as to who said what.

Also, Petro, try to refrain from using an exclamation point (!) at the end of almost every sentence. It gives the impression that you are shouting, which we hope you are not.

-------------
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 20:29

Flipper!

Koine became "common" as in "belonging to everyone"! Not "simple" as opposed to the "elite"!

I meant: Koine was used by the elite in Macedonia for official correspondence between the institutions. It wasn't used by the common (simple) people of Macedonia. Like for example, we now know that Alexander's Greek soldiers needed translators when he addressed his Macedonian soldiers in his own tongue! (see Plutarch, Herodotes, Quintus Curtis Rufus).

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 20:54

Plutarch, Herodotes, Quintus Curtis Rufus

say that Macedons were Greek,you should read them too.

-------------
http://www.hoplites.net/

Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 20:58

Transliteration from one of the 20th century's foremost Egyptologists

The Rosetta Stone by Wallis Budge

since some mods still continue to keep this thread open and of course the claim of this pseudo-essay that ancient Macedonians were Slavonic speakers and the demotic in Rosetta Stone is a Slavonic language.

-------------

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 21:47

Originally posted by akritas

Transliteration from��one of the 20th century's foremost Egyptologists

�

�

The Rosetta Stone by Wallis Budge

�

since some�mods still �continue to keep this thread open and�of course the claim of this pseudo-essay that ancient Macedonians were Slavonic �speakers and the demotic in Rosetta Stone��is�� a Slavonic language.

I would love to see theh source of this translation...

Sorry for the "!" I am not yelling of course:)

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 21:51

This piece of writing that says TRANSLITERATION OF THE DEMOTIC is useless without the source. On the other hand you tend to disregard Tentov and Boshevski's full andn detailed research on the Demotic text and its full translation, and focus on a partial fragmented piece of evidence that is not even a translated work, it is TRANSLITERATED. Meaning "interpreted"!

I wonder what is in hiding?:)

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:02

Check these sites on Plutarch's words about Macedonians:

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/plutarch.html

Demosthenes called the Macedonians "barbarians" (meaning those who do not speak Hellenic).

Quintus Curtis Rufus in his work De Rebus Gestis Alexandri Macedonis VI, 10, says: "Here you can see how far has Philotas gone to reject his mother tongue...".

The context of this was following:

Philota, Alexander's close friend and commander was on a trial, and the quote from above is what Alexander said to him after he refused to be inquested in his mother tongue.

To this Philota replied: "I am being judged because I have rejected the Macedonian way, and in such a way I am a traitor to the Kingdom, but the mother tongue even earlier was abandoned in the communication with the other people. So both the winners and the defeated had to learn a new foreign languae." (Q.C.Rufus - transliteration:) from his quoted work p.275)

There are many acoounts onthis issue, but that is a whole other topic!

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:05

same old stuff repeated gatzillion times.......

-------------
http://www.hoplites.net/

Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:11

Originally posted by olvios

same old stuff repeated gatzillion times.......

buddy dont continue this gatzillion game. I have one more surprise to our Slavmacedonian member but....first I want to see some answers of some people as about why allow a thread that distort and falsificated the Egyptian heritage.

-------------

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:14

Originally posted by akritas

Originally posted by olvios

same old stuff repeated gatzillion times.......

The Egyptian heritage?

Destroy!?!

Man I love it! It is my heritage too, because it has given the world such an admirable treasure as the Rosetta stone.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:16

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Check these sites on Plutarch's words about Macedonians:

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/plutarch.html

Demosthenes called the Macedonians "barbarians" (meaning those who do not speak Hellenic).

This has been debated to death. Barbarian means not necessarly "speaking non Hellenic". Moreover Demosthenes called Philip a barbarian not the Macedonians. Wink

It was a part of a political speech and an insulting term as we know.

Quintus Curtis Rufus in his work De Rebus Gestis Alexandri Macedonis VI, 10, says: "Here you can see how far has Philotas gone to reject his mother tongue...".

The context of this was following:

Philota, Alexander's close friend and commander was on a trial, and the quote from above is what Alexander said to him after he refused to be inquested in his mother tongue.

To this Philota replied: "I am being judged because I have rejected the Macedonian way, and in such a way I am a traitor to the Kingdom, but the mother tongue even earlier was abandoned in the communication with the other people. So both the winners and the defeated had to learn a new foreign languae." (Q.C.Rufus - transliteration:) from his quoted work p.275)

There are many acoounts onthis issue, but that is a whole other topic!

Old story...The philotas affair has a small point where he says it would be more easily for the rest to understand. More easily doesn't mean a different tongue. I personally prefer to speak with a pontian or Cypriot in common Greek, rather than hearing them speaking their native dialect. Further reading...

http://www.history.ccsu.edu/elias/PhilotasPatriusSermo.pdf - http://www.history.ccsu.edu/elias/PhilotasPatriusSermo.pdf

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:17

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Originally posted by akritas

Transliteration from one of the 20th century's foremost Egyptologists

The Rosetta Stone by Wallis Budge

I would love to see theh source of this translation...

Sorry for the "!" I am not yelling of course:)

"The Rosetta Stone by Wallis Budge" is your answer...

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:17

Originally posted by olvios

Plutarch, Herodotes, Quintus Curtis Rufus

say that Macedons were Greek,you should read them too.

Exactly... LOL

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:18

Of course let us focus on the Rosetta stone, not what implications it has on further studies about Macedonia or Greece. Please.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:21

"The Rosetta Stone by Wallis Budge" is your answer...

Yes but I can't really read that now. Neither can you! We do not know that it contains translation of the Demotic text from the Rosetta stone! So let us leave it aside for further notice.

Or if you have it I would be willing to take a look?

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:22

Now, Petro...Since you selectively used the official point of historians etc, i will use the official point of the linguists :)

2 years ago, the ancient macedonian language was coined as Indoeuropean Greek branch, by the linguist community . It received an ISO code XMK. What do you have to say about that?

http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/LLDescription.cfm?code=xmk - http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/LLDescription.cfm?code=xmk

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:23

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

"The Rosetta Stone by Wallis Budge" is your answer...

Yes but I can't really read that now. Neither can you! We do not know that it contains translation of the Demotic text from the Rosetta stone! So let us leave it aside for further notice.

Or if you have it I would be willing to take a look?

I'm sure Akritas will bring you a screendump of the book...So stay tuned.

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:29

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Flipper!

Koine became "common" as in "belonging to everyone"! Not "simple" as opposed to the "elite"!

I meant: Koine was used by the elite in Macedonia for official correspondence between the institutions. It wasn't used by the common (simple) people of Macedonia. Like for example, we now know that Alexander's Greek soldiers needed translators when he addressed his Macedonian soldiers in his own tongue! (see Plutarch, Herodotes, Quintus Curtis Rufus).

One more thing...The Macedonians attended theater as i told you before and Bacche was written in Greek. The oldest papyrus of Europe comes from Macedonia known as the Derveni papyri. The author is trying to write in Attic but uses a lot of Dorian words. Does that ring a bell?

Also, i need a translator to understand arcadocypriot from certain districts in Cyprus. However, if they would write down what they say to me i can understand 100% of it. The same goes for the Pontians that come from Uzbekistan. I don't understand what they say very well. Does that make Arcadocypriot and Pontian a non greek language?

As for "their own tongue" you refer to "makedonisti"...So by that you mean that "Attikisti" (attic) for example is not Greek?

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:31

And this is from the Brittish museum Petro...

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:43

I have some pages from the book mentioned before...I have no access to the rest though.

In any case, does this translation match the other two scripts on the stone or Tentovs version? Also, why doesn't your state want to support his research and verify the translation according to your national tv?

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 22:52

[QUOTE=Flipper]
I have some pages from the book mentioned before...I have no access to the rest though.In any case, does this translation match the other two scripts on the stone or Tentovs version? Also, why doesn't your state want to support his research and verify the translation according to your national tv?

Check this:

Text of the Rosetta Stone

In the reign of the young one who has succeeded his father in the kingship, lord of diadems, most glorious, who has established Egypt and is pious towards the gods, triumphant over his enemies, who has restored the civilized life of men, lord of the Thirty Years Festivals, even as Ptah the Great, a king like Ra, great king of the Upper and Lower countries, offspring of the Gods Philopatores, one whom Ptah has approved, to whom Ra has given victory, the living image of Amun, son of Ra, PTOLEMY, LIVING FOR EVER, BELOVED OF PTAH, in the ninth year, when Aetos son of Aetos was priest of Alexander, and the Gods Soteres, and the Gods Adelphoi, and the Gods Euergetai, and the Gods Philopatores and the God Epiphanes Eucharistos; Pyrrha daughter of Philinos being Athlophoros of Berenike Euergetis, Areia daughter of Diogenes being Kanephoros of Arsinoe Philadelphos; Irene daughter of Ptolemy being Priestess of Arsinoe Philopator; the fourth of the month of Xandikos, according to the Egyptians the 18th Mekhir.

from: http://pw1.netcom.com/~qkstart/rosetta.html

Doesn't match this fully either! Where did you get this book I wonder? What is the source can we take a look and see the whole work?

And is this the translataion of the Demotic with a capital "D", or demotic meaning Koine?

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 23:00

Yet it says three scripts, and the everyday script of literate Egyptians (or could it be "the rulers of Egypt"). The Macedonian rulers were proclaimed as Pharaohs and rulers of Egypt at that time. So maybe, just maybe the British Museum underestimated the language of "the rulers of Egypt" at that time. Could it be that "the rulers of Egypt", who did not speak the Egyptian until Cleopatra, were speaking another language using the Egyptian script(meaning the Demotic script)?!? The language of the rulers was Macedonian.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 23:03

Macedonian language with a Demotic script as Ptolomy's native tongue.

That is the reality behind the middle text of the Rosetta stone.

That is what he declared in his personal correspondence with the scribes, and then given to be translated in Koine with Hellenic script, and Egyptian or Coptic language with the Sacred script (Hieroglyphic).

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 23:15

Originally posted by Flipper

I have some pages from the book mentioned before...I have no access to the rest though.

I have the book and the rest one and since that I get my answers (warning ) from the people that allowing such kind of threads lets see how the pseudo-scientists distort the Egyptian heritage.

The Rosetta Stone by Wallis Budge, pages 92-93

The most important of this is the last paragraph that show clearly what are the purposes of the writing letters in the Stone. Of course the Stone has transilarated in Egyptian demotike language with the help of the Greek text.

And the question is...... "the writing of the letters" was Slavonic as the pseudo-essay claim ?

The Greek text as and the Egyptians (and not Gypsy as the pseudo-essay claim) scripts -dialects agree as about why was written in all three scripts so that the priests, government officials and rulers of Egypt could read what it said.

-------------

Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 23:38

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Original message:

"The fact that the Demotic script has not been translated fully and no-one is able to read it, phonetically, word by wopd, proves that it wasn't used with the Coptic, but with another language probably that of the rulers. Now the question is what was the language of the rulers?

I have spent some time surfing on this, everything I have found contradicts your statement. Demotic has been fully translated.
As a matter of fact, I would like to see your sources on a lot of this. You guys are playing fast and loose with subjects that are well researched and documented, lets see some of it."

You say that the Demotic has been fully translated. Not according to the Demotic Dictionary of the University of Chicago. The Demotic from the Rosetta stone is listed under "problematic entries".

I do not understand! It is the opposite from what you claim Red Clay. Take a look:

1. We cannot find a full translation of the Demotic text from the Rosetta stone.

2. No-one can read it phonetically!

3. There are indications that it was a script used for personal correspondence.

4. We know it was the original text on the Rosetta stone, so it seems that the Ptolemy was using this script to announce the decree, to be later translated in the Hieroglyphic and Greek text.

5. We have seen that the Demotic script was in use by many languages. Why not Macedonian, the language of the rulers of Egypt at that time?

What is in the hiding here?

From the British Museum Home page- The complete Demotic text.

[Year 9, Xandikos day 4], which is equivalent to the Egyptian month, second month of Peret, day 18, of the King 'The Youth who has appeared as King in the place of his Father', the Lord of the Uraei 'Whose might is great, who has established Egypt, causing it to prosper, whose heart is beneficial before the gods', (the One) Who is over his Enemy 'Who has caused the life of the people to prosper, the Lord of the Years of Jubilee like Ptah-Tenen, King like Pre', [the King of the Upper Districts and] the Lower Districts 'The Son of the Father-loving Gods, whom Ptah has chosen, to whom Pre has given victory, the Living Image of Amun', the Son of Pre 'Ptolemy, living forever, beloved of Ptah, the Manifest God whose excellence is fine', son of Ptolemy and Arsinoe, the Father-loving Gods, (and) the Priest of Alexander and the Saviour Gods and [the Brother-and-Sister Gods and the] Beneficent [Gods] and the Father-loving Gods and King Ptolemy, the Manifest God whose excellence is fine, Aetos son of Aetos; while Pyrrha daughter of Philinos was Prize-bearer before Berenice the Beneficent, while Areia daughter of Diogenes was [Basket]-bearer [before Arsi]noe the Brother-loving, and while Eirene daughter of Ptolemy was Priestess of Arsinoe the Father-loving: on this day, a decree of the mr-sn priests and the hm-ntr priests, and the priests who enter the sanctuary to perform clothing rituals for the gods, and the scribes of the divine book and the scribes of the House of Life, and the other priests who have come from the temples of Egypt [to Memphis on] the festival of the Reception of the Rulership by King Ptolemy, living forever, beloved of Ptah, the Manifest God whose excellence is fine, from his father, who have assembled in the temple of Memphis, and who have said:

Whereas King Ptolemy, living forever, the Manifest God whose excellence is fine, son of King Ptolemy [and Queen] Arsinoe, the Father-loving Gods, is wont to do many favours for the temples of Egypt and for all those who are subject to his kingship, he being a god, the son of a god and a goddess, and being like Horus son of Isis and Osiris, who protects his father Osiris, and his heart being beneficent concerning the gods, since he has given much money and much grain to the temples of Egypt, [he having undertaken great expenses] in order to create peace in Egypt and to establish the temples, and having rewarded all the forces that are subject to his rulership; and of the revenues and taxes that were in force in Egypt he had reduced some or(?) had renounced them completely, in order to cause the army and all the other people to be prosperous in his time as [king; the arrear]s which were due to the King from the people who are in Egypt and all those who are subject to his kingship, and (which) amounted to a large total, he renounced; the people who were in prison and those against whom there had been charges for a long time, he released; he ordered concerning the endowments of the gods, and the money and the grain that are given as allowances to their [temples] each year, and the shares that belong to the gods from the vineyards, the orchards, and all the rest of the property which they possessed under his father, that they should remain in their possession; moreover, he ordered concerning the priests that they should not pay their tax on becoming priests above what they used to pay up to Year 1 under his father; he released the people [who hold] the offices of the temples from the voyage they used to make to the Residence of Alexander each year; he ordered that no rower should be impressed into service; he renounced the two-thirds share of the fine linen that used to be made in the temples for the Treasury, he bringing into its [correct] state everything that had abandoned its (proper) condition for a long time, and taking all care to have done in a correct manner what is customarily done for the gods, likewise causing justice to be done for the people in accordance with what Thoth the Twice-great did; moreover, he ordered concerning those who will return from the fighting men and the rest of the people who had gone astray (lit. been on other ways) in the disturbance that had occurred in Egypt that [they] should [be returned] to their homes, and their possessions should be restored to them; and he took all care to send (foot)soldiers, horsemen, and ships against those who came by the shore and by the sea to make an attack on Egypt; he spent a great amount in money and grain against these (enemies), in order to ensure that the temples and the people who were in Egypt should be secure; he went to the fortress of Sk3n [which had] been fortified by the rebels with all kinds of work, there being much gear and all kinds of equipment within it; he enclosed that fortress with a wall and a dyke(?) around (lit. outside) it, because of the rebels who were inside it, who had already done much harm to Egypt, and abandoned the way of the commands of the King and the commands [of the god]s; he caused the canals which supplied water to that fortress to be dammed off, although the previous kings could not have done likewise, and much money was expended on them; he assigned a force of footsoldiers and horsemen to the mouths of those canals, in order to watch over them and to protect them, because of the [rising] of the water, which was great in Year 8, while those canals supply water to much land and are very deep; the King took that fortress by storm in a short time; he overcame the rebels who were within it, and slaughtered them in accordance with what Pre and Horus son of Isis did to those who had rebelled against them in those places in the Beginning; (as for) the rebels who had gathered armies and led them to disturb the nomes, harming the temples and abandoning the way of the King and his father, the gods let him overcome thein at Memphis during the festival of the Reception of the Rulership which he did from his father, and he had them slain on the wood; he remitted the arrears that were due to the King from the temples up to Year 9, and amounted to a large total of money and grain; likewise the value of the fine linen that was due from the temples from what is made for the Treasury, and the verification fees(?) of what had been made up to that time; moreover, he ordered concerning the artaba of wheat per aroura of land, which used to be collected from the fields of the endowment, and likewise for the wine per aroura of land from the vineyards of the gods' endowments: he renounced them; he did many favours for Apis and Mnevis, and the other sacred animals that are honoured in Egypt, more than what those who were before him used to do, he being devoted to their affairs at all times, and giving what is required for their burials, although it is great and splendid, and providing what is dedicated(?) in their temples when festivals are celebrated and burnt offerings made before them, and the rest of the things which it is fitting to do; the honours which are due to the temples and the other honours of Egypt he caused to be established in their (proper) condition in accordance with the law; he gave much gold, silver, grain, and other items for the Place of Apis; he had it adorned with new work as very fine work; he had new temples, sanctuaries, and altars set up for the gods, and caused others to assume their (proper) condition, he having the heart of a beneficent god concerning the gods and enquiring after the honours of the temples, in order to renew them in his time as king in the manner that is fitting; and the gods have given him in return for these things strength, victory, success(?), prosperity, health, and all the (sic) other favours, his kingship being established under him and his descendants forever:

With good fortune! It has seemed fitting to the priests of all the temples of Egypt, as to the honours which are due to King Ptolemy, living forever, the Manifest God whose excellence is fine, in the temples, and those which are due to the Father-loving Gods, who brought him into being, and those which are due to the Beneficent Gods, who brought into being those who brought him into being, and those which are due to the Brother-and-Sister Gods, who brought into being those who brought them into being, and those which are due to the Saviour Gods, the ancestors of his ancestors, to increase them; and that a statue should be set up for King Ptolemy, living forever, the Manifest God whose excellence is fine - which should be called 'Ptolemy who has protected the Bright Land', the meaning of which is 'Ptolemy who has preserved Egypt' - together with a statue for the local god, giving him a scimitar of victory, in each temple, in the public part of the temple, they being made in the manner of Egyptian work; and the priests should pay service to the statues in each temple three times a day, and they should lay down sacred objects before them and do for them the rest of the things that it is normal to do, in accordance with what is done for the other gods on the festivals, the processions, and the named (holi)days; and there should be produced a cult image for King Ptolemy, the Manifest God whose excellence is fine, son of Ptolemy and Queen Arsinoe, the Father-loving Gods, together with the (sic) shrine in each temple, and it should be installed in the sanctuary with the other shrines; and when the great festivals occur, on which the gods are taken in procession, the shrine of the Manifest God whose excellence is fine should be taken in procession with them; and in order that the shrine may be recognized, now and in the rest of the times that are to come, ten royal diadems of gold should be added - there being one uraeus on them each, like what is normally done for the gold diadems - on top of the shrine, instead of the uraei that are upon the rest of the shrines; and the double crown should be in the centre of the diadems, because it is the one with which the King was crowned in the temple of Memphis, when there was being done for him what is normally done at the Reception of the Rulership; and there should be placed on the upper side of (the) square(?) which is outside the diadems, and opposite the gold diadem that is described above, a papyrus plant and a 'sedge' plant; and a uraeus should be placed on a basket with a 'sedge' under it on the right of the side on top of the shrine, and a uraeus with a basket under it should be placed on a papyrus on the left, the meaning of which is 'The King who has illumined Upper and Lower Egypt'; and whereas fourth month of Shemu, last day, on which is held the birthday of the King, has been established already as a procession festival in the temples, likewise second month of Peret, day 17, on which are performed for him the ceremonies of the Reception of the Rulership - the beginning of the good things that have happened to everyone: the birth of the King, living forever, and his reception of the rulership - let these days, the 17th and the last, become festivals each month in all the temples of Egypt; and there should be performed burnt offerings, libations, and the rest of the things that are normally done on the other festivals, on both festivals each month; and what is offered in sacrifice(?) should be distributed as a surplus(?) to the people who serve in the temple; and a procession festival should be held in the temples and the whole of Egypt for King Ptolemy, living forever, the Manifest God whose excellence is fine, each year, from first month of Akhet, day 1, for five days, with garlands being worn, burnt offerings and libations being performed, and the rest of the things that it is fitting to do; and the priests who are in each of the temples of Egypt should be called 'The Priests of the Manifest God whose excellence is fine' in addition to the other priestly titles, and they should write it on every document, and they should write the priesthood of the Manifest God whose excellence is fine on their rings and they should engrave it on them; and it should be made possible for the private persons also who will (so) wish, to produce the likeness of the shrine of the Manifest God whose excellence is fine, which is (discussed) above, and to keep it in their homes and hold the festivals and the processions which are described above, each year, so that it may become known that the inhabitants of Egypt pay honour to the Manifest God whose excellence is fine in accordance with what is normally done; and the decree should be written on a stela of hard stone, in sacred writing, document writing, and Greek writing, and it should be set up in the first-class temples, the second-class temples and the third-class temples, next to the statue of the King, living forever.

Translation by R.S. Simpson
Revised version from R.S. Simpson, Demotic Grammar in the Ptolemaic Sacerdotal Decrees (Oxford, Griffith Institute, 1996), pp. 258-71

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlights_all_relationships.aspx?Title=The+Rosetta+Stone%3a+translation+of+the+demotic+text&ContentType=Article&PageId=23673">

Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 23:47

Originally posted by Red Clay

From the British Museum Home page- The complete Demotic text.

Thank you very much Red Clay Clap

I guess that problem is solved and you saved our time.

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

So maybe, just maybe the British Museum underestimated the language of "the rulers of Egypt" at that time. Could it be that "the rulers of Egypt", who did not speak the Egyptian until Cleopatra, were speaking another language using the Egyptian script(meaning the Demotic script)?!? The language of the rulers was Macedonian.

No comments...Just to remind you ancient Macedonian is coined as IEGB (Indoeuropean Greek Branch) as I mentioned before, not Slavic.

-------------

Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!

Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 00:17

You say that the Demotic has been fully translated. Not according to the Demotic Dictionary of the University of Chicago. The Demotic from the Rosetta stone is listed under "problematic entries".

No, the "problematic entries" section does not include whole paragraphs or works. It is for words or concepts that the staff isn't satisfied that they have a complete meaning for. Most languages have words that have multiple meanings and usage. The people working on this project have much more than the Rosetta stone in mind. They want to be sure that each entry is complete.

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 00:40

Originally posted by red clay

You say that the Demotic has been fully translated. Not according to the Demotic Dictionary of the University of Chicago. The Demotic from the Rosetta stone is listed under "problematic entries".

�

No, the "problematic entries"� section does not include whole paragraphs or works.� It is for words or concepts that the staff isn't satisfied that they have a complete meaning for.� Most languages have words that have multiple meanings and usage.� The people working on this project have much more than the Rosetta stone in mind.� They want to be sure that each entry is complete.

�

Yes you are right. However, it still doesn't give a full translation of the Demotic text. And the text presented above by Flipper is an extract from a research paper just as Tentov is I guess. Tentov and Boshevski at least offer the whole system of decoding the text. This extract does not give it at all.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 00:42

Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by Red Clay

From the British Museum Home page-� The complete Demotic text.

Thank you very much Red Clay Clap

I guess that problem is solved and you saved our time.

No comments...Just to remind you ancient Macedonian is coined as IEGB (Indoeuropean Greek Branch) as I mentioned before, not Slavic.

When I said the language was Macedonian I didn't say it was Slavic. At that time Slavic did not exist. It was ANCIENT MACEDONIAN language. However, later on, it might have influenced the creation of the Slavic language substratum. But that is another theory.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 01:00

About:

"From the British Museum Home page-� The complete Demotic text."�

Translation by R.S. Simpson
Revised version from R.S. Simpson, Demotic Grammar in the Ptolemaic Sacerdotal Decrees (Oxford, Griffith Institute, 1996), pp. 258-71

Copyright of R.S. Simpson and the Griffith Institute

Why don't you give us the link as well. I would love to see the whole process:

1. the symbols, and their equivalents, in English,
2. how was the text decoded (the process as in comparison to the Greek text or the Hierogliphic),
3. And how much it resembles the Coptic or the Egyptian language you claim it to be!

In other words: Can we get the study of it? Like the research paper of Tentov and compare them?

Of course NOT because it is a TRANSLITERATION, based on the Greek text and the pictographic symbols that have remained in the same use as before in the Demotic script. You see there are symbols that represent concept say the "circle" for "Ra"-sun. Sun is pronounced differently in different languages but if you write it with that universal symbol than everyone will know it. Similarly, the Demotic text contains pictographic symbols that might represent names of Gods, titles, places, or institutions, that are pronounced differently in different languages but still written with the same symbol.

Those letters representing syllables can be "misused" in various langauges, meaning the Macedonians might have started using them with their own words, since we know that they knew the Egyptian poorly, and the Demotic script was used for personal correspondence as well as document writing, such as this decree.

I found this link only:

http://www.emich.edu/abroad/staff/Benita/Rosetta.html

And it doesn't give the full process! I still claim it is TRANSLITERATION!

Take a good look at this:

http://www.arisandphillips.com/ap/Demot%20Gramm.html

Quote:

"The study, which presupposes no specialist knowledge of demotic, has two principal aims. The first is to assess how the evidence from these texts may advance understanding of important demotic constructions, such as the articles, durative objects, and 'emphatic' patterns. The second aim is to identify and explain the linguistic peculiarities of this specialised corpus. The discussion compares problematic passages with the parallel Greek and hieroglyphic versions and systematically considers theoretical issues underlying the analysis and arrangement of the material, including the distinction between lexical and grammatical elements (such as articles, verbal auxiliaries, and 'converters') on which the syntax of demotic is mainly based."

This is what R.S. Simpson says about his work, where the extract is from. So this text of the Demotic script from the Rosetta stone that you showed above is taken out of context from his study, and it doesn't show that he conducted the translation.

To the contrary Simpsons says that his study "presupposes no specialist knowledge of demotic"!!! Which suggests that he did not deal with the actual process of translating the middle text of the Rosetta stone or any Demotic text whatsoever (which makes it a comparative study, not a decoding or translating of a text)! He rather compared problematic passages with the parallel Greek and hieroglyphic versions.

The text you presented above as the full translation of the middle text from the Rosetta stone is an extract of a TRANSLITERATED text, based on ASSUMPTIONS, as part of a COMPARATIVE STUDY of all the forms of Demotic scripts, and we know there have been many.

ALSO: The phonemic system is not explained at all. The focus on the Rosetta stone Demotic text is obscure. It is practically mentioned only.

I wonder where these book are coming from? And how come they are used as historical evidence without checking into their contents fully?

I would love to look at it closely and compare it with Tentov and Boshevski's work.

See you tomorrow ta...taa

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 01:26

On the other hand this is what it says on Boshevski and Tentov's site about their work.

"A basic assumption of our research is that in writing the text on the Rosetta Stone three scripts were used, but in three languages: ancient Egyptian, written in the hieroglyphic script, ancient Macedonian, written in the demotic script, and ancient Greek written in the ancient Greek alphabet. It should be mentioned that one of the most significant and leading works in the field of study of the demotic script as well as the language, the new Egyptian language as it is called, is the Dictionary and Grammar of the Demotic Language, The Oriental Institute of Chicago, USA. Although it is clear and generally accepted that a syllabic script is in question, in this significant publication the authors point out that they are not CAPABLE to read the text sign by sign (syllable after syllable), but they suggest the text is written word after word, and at the same time SUPPOSING an absolute language identity in the forming of sentences, phrases and all the names of rulers and gods in the text in ancient Egyptian with the ancient Greek text.

The appearances of the three parts of the text are available on the following links: hieroglyphic, demotic, ancient Greek.

The perceptions and results of our research in analyzing and deciphering the middle text of Rosetta Stone are presented here, starting from the assumption that the text in the demotic script was written in the language of the ancient Macedonians, i.e. in the ancient Macedonian language. You may proceed to the characteristics of the analyzed script through the following topics:"

There is a list of a detailed study of the script and the symbols, and its phonemic representation in English, so anyone can study it.

http://rosetta-stone.etf.ukim.edu.mk/

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 01:35

So the only plausible argument against Tentov and Boshevski's research would be a similarly THOROUGH research, not a TRANSLITERATION based on ASSUMPTIONS, which is clearly the case with the attempted translations of the Demotic text from the Rosetta stone that you guys presented above.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...

Posted By: Petro Invictus
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 02:52

Originally posted by Flipper

Now, Petro...Since you selectively used the official point of historians etc, i will use the official point of the linguists :)2 years ago, the ancient macedonian language was coined as Indoeuropean Greek branch, by the linguist community . It received an ISO code XMK. What do you have to say about that? http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/LLDescription.cfm?code=xmk - http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/LLDescription.cfm?code=xmk

Family :      Indo-European
Subgroup :      Macedonian

Where did you see the Greek branch?

It says: "The ancient language of the Macedonian kingdom in N. Greece and MODERN Macedonia during the later 1st millennium BC. Survived until the early 1st millennium AD." Interesting!

The early first millennium AD - that is pretty close to the Slavic "invasions". So it seems they might have "come across" at some point. Any furhter study on the matter?

I can only guess that it is considered an extinct because the linguists community has been unable to find evidence of its existence, due to it not having an official written script until the Cyrillic, or someone not considering latest researches on the topic. It takes time! They might even consider it soon.

The Demotic script on the Rosetta stone was the script used by the Macedonian rulers in Egypt only. Those in Macedonia spoke the same ancient Macedonian of the Indo-European group, which somehow survived until the 9th century to be officialized with the Cyrillic script.

The Indo-European origins of the modern day Macedonian langauge can be well seen in the words: "Sonce" for "Sun" or "Sole" or "Sunce", "Mesec" for "Moon", "Luna"... "Voda", for "Watter", "Aqua"... "Majka" for "Mother"... "Madre".

Can you show the same phonetic similarity of the Indo European languages with Greek? Not so!?!

The Greek language on the other hand is classified as a series of both extinct and living languages. So which is what here?

http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/input_wr_action_speci.cfm

This is another site on Indeo-European lnaguages:

http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_indoeuro.html

The Macedonian is not listed as part of the Hellenic branch:

"The only extant language in this branch is Modern Greek.

Greek is one of the oldest Indo-European languages. Mycenaean dates from 1300BC. The Ancient Greek of Homer was written from around 700BC. The major forms were Doric (Sparta), Ionic (Cos), Aeolic (Lesbos), and Attic (Athens). The latter is Classical Greek.

The New Testament of the Christian Bible was written in a form of 1st Century AD Greek called Koine. This developed into the Greek of the Byzantine Empire. Modern Greek has developed from this.

Greek has three genders and four cases for nouns but no form of the verb infinitive. The language has its own script, derived from Phoenician with the addition of symbols for vowels. It is one of the oldest alphabets in the world and has led to the Latin and Cyrillic alphabets. The Greek Alphabet is still used in science and mathematics.

Until the 1970s Greek was a Diglossic language. This means that there were two forms: Katharevoussa used in official documents and news broadcasts and Demotic used in common speech.

The Greek spoken in Cyprus includes many Turkish, Arabic and Venetian words and has a different pronounciation to the official Greek of Greece."

Take into account that the Greek of Homer's is totally different from the Doric, Attic, or the Koine as another stage, and modern day Greek. The Greek of the ancient times is extinct. And the modern Greek comes from a form developed in Byzantium.

However this is not the issue of our topic so please let us stay focused. The Decoding of the Demotic text of the Rosetta stone.

-------------

...BRINGER OF THE DAWN...