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Turks & Mongols

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ethnic History of Central Asia
Forum Discription: Discussions about the ethnic origins of Central Asian peoples. All topics related to ethnicity should go here.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22476
Printed Date: 28-Mar-2024 at 05:59
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Topic: Turks & Mongols
Posted By: xi_tujue
Subject: Turks & Mongols
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 12:32
Why is there such a big difference in poppulation between the Turks & Mongols.

Even without Turkey & with Inner Mongolia the Turks have a huge number compared to the Mongols.

What is the cause of this?
Has this allways been the case?


thanks for the Help Big%20smile

EDIT: mistype Tongue


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage



Replies:
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 21:36
Turkic speakers started their expansion much earlier, almost one thousands years yearlier than Mongols (I mean Xianbi-Hunns who moved to the West in 2 AD). I also believe that while Hunns conquered a lot of culturally weaker ethnicities like Finno-ugrian tribes or some remnants of the Skythians and Sarmatians in the central Asia and thus were able to impose their language throught the domination, it was not the case with Mongols who were mostly absorbed into culturally more diverse lands of Central Asia, Iran, China and Southern Russia.
 
So, when the Mongols started their expansion in the 13th century Turkic languages already had a long history of written languages with deep cultural roots. Even Mongols adopted Turkic Uighur script for their language.
 
Also it has a lot of to do with the ideology. Turkic languages in Central Asia were associated with Islam as a core ideology. Mongols didn't have any alternatives to it. They couldn't replace Islam with their own Tengri face and eventually were absorbed by Islam themselves. Absorbation to the Islamic Central Asian culture also meant the absorbation into Turkic languages environment.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 21:42
So your saying lot of mongolic tribes got absorbed into Turkic communities in Central Asia and iran?

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 22:06
Absolutely. Especially in Central Asia. Among Kazakhs and Uzbeks there are many clans which originate from Mongolian tribes for example Naiman, Kiat, Kerei (Keraits) all those are Kazakh clans now.

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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 22:11
yeah but still


did the Turks allways have larger Numbers or did it happen after the 6 cent AD?(expension era)


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 22:19
The expansion era of Turks started much earlier in 2 AD and perhaps even more earlier. The thing is that Turkic tribes were situated to the West from proto-Mongolians. So, they had more room for expansion.
 
So when when the proto Mongols Donghu or Xianbi, pushed to the West, they just triggered the subsequent Turkic migration further to the West.
 
So there was no actual Mongol expansion to the West per se until 13th century, while the Turkic migration to the West began somewhere aroung the start of the Common era.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 22:25
Be4 the Term Turk existed I mean be4 it was used by the Ashina tribe. Was Turkic spoken by all of the Tribes of Central asia

and did they have a unity or was it every tribe for theselfs if so did the mongolians get separated i mean some joined the Confedaration  and got Turkified and those who didn't stayed "mongolian'


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 22:35
Of course there were Turkic speakers in Central Asia before Ashina, all this started with Xiongnu move to the West.
 
There were also strong states like for example Kyrgyzs who were Turkic speakers.
 
In fact, there is a quite reliable theory that Ashina clan had actually Mongolian origins. Wink
 
Of course, tribes with the close language tried to stay together. But there was a lot of mixture as well. And still is. Look for example at modern Tuvinians culturally speaking they are Mongols, linguistically they are Turks.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 23:44
Meanwhile the Mongolic were absorbed into Turkic and Chinese elements in Central Asia, it is also necessary to state that Mongol population was not huge like their Turkic counterparts and they were living in a certain area.After Mongol invasions, they had migrations, however, the Mongols were generally the soldiers and rulers.

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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli


Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 19:33
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Of course there were Turkic speakers in Central Asia before Ashina, all this started with Xiongnu move to the West.
 
There were also strong states like for example Kyrgyzs who were Turkic speakers.
 
In fact, there is a quite reliable theory that Ashina clan had actually Mongolian origins. Wink
 
Of course, tribes with the close language tried to stay together. But there was a lot of mixture as well. And still is. Look for example at modern Tuvinians culturally speaking they are Mongols, linguistically they are Turks.


I verry much Doubt that


The Mongolian Influence in Tuvan culture isn't that old. I mean I think it was after the establishment of the Mongol Empire


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 20:07
Originally posted by xi_tujue



I verry much Doubt that


The Mongolian Influence in Tuvan culture isn't that old. I mean I think it was after the establishment of the Mongol Empire
 
What do you doubt?
 
Mongol empire was established almost a millenium ago. Isn't 1000 years that old?
 


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 20:12
BTW, for example a famous Mongolian general Subudai was Uriankhai. Uriankhai is just an old name for Tuvans.
 
I remember, once Subudai even decieved Kypchaks by saying that they shouldn't fight him since there language and customs are the same. Later he attacked and destroyed the Kypchaks.


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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 22:07
duh

Subotai was just a good friend of Temujin since they were little

he was nothiong more than a sheep herder be4

This was one of the thing why Timujin and Yamuka fought about (eventhough the battle between those 2 was inevitable :D )

What subotai did was a cheap shot but nevertheless effective


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2007 at 01:25
The thing is that Subotai was very likely Turkic. It related to the problem of Turko-Mongolian mixture and interactions I had addressed earlier.

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Σαυρομάτης


Posted By: Windemere
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2007 at 03:20
I also suspect that many of  the people of Central Asia/Turkestan (Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks, and Turkmens) are probably of mixed Turkic/Turanian and Mongolic descent. Also suspect that some of the peoples of Siberia ( Yakuts, Khakass, and the previously mentioned Uriankhai/Tuvans are of mixed Turkic/Turanian and Mongolic descent. Even though all these people are officially considered to be Turkic instead of Mongolic. Some linguists consider both Turkic and Mongolic to be in the same language family (Ural-Altaic).
 
I also suspect that the Mongols and Tibetans are closely related biologically, though they speak different languages. A Y-chromosome genetic study of Tibetans found that the population has quite a bit of variability in the origin of their haplogroups, some from Turkestan and some from the Far East, though physically the people are similar in appearance. ( Y-chromosome only tells what an individual's genetic origin is, the individual's physical appearance is determined by their overall genetic make-up).


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Windemere


Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2007 at 10:24
^most of the things you said and were correct is allready known on this site

The Tibetants are more related to the chinese.


the Y-chromosone thing ..............Everybody knows how it spread Wink and not millenia ago I can promise you that Tongue


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2007 at 19:44
from what i know Tibetan is related to Burmese...

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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2007 at 22:12
i thought they were called sino-tibetan peoples or somethin like that

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2007 at 12:40
I think Turkic tribes where much more in number then the mongolian ones, also not to forget the assimilated Turkic tribes in eastern europe (avars-bulgars-kuman and many others). So this means we where huge in numbers.

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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2007 at 21:34
Originally posted by xi_tujue

i thought they were called sino-tibetan peoples or somethin like that


in my ethnicites book they are in the 'tibeto-burmese' langauge group.


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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2007 at 21:38
I looked it up there called sino-tibetan

  there 2 main groups

the chinese & the Tibetan-burmeese apperantly


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: Young Tatar
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2007 at 09:27
Hello,
I think Mongols were Turkish people but they were different people.


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"Independence and Freedom are my character."
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

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Crimean Tatar Independence Movement


Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2007 at 23:13
I'm just going to ignore thatStern%20Smile

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2012 at 20:00
According to this book the Turks and Mongols shared the same ancestors: the Altaic people. Other members of this ethnicity include the Huns, Sarmatians and Scythians
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=t0JwYHsv-6AC&lpg=PT17&dq=turks%20mongols&pg=PT17#v=onepage&q&f=false - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=t0JwYHsv-6AC&lpg=PT17&dq=turks%20mongols&pg=PT17#v=onepage&q&f=false


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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!



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