Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the
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Topic: Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the
Posted By: ConradWeiser
Subject: Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 05:59
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I find it utterly disappointing that people are debating over the "bad side" of Christianity and the "bad side" of Islam. First of all, there is no bad religion or nor do religions have "bad sides".
The second point is, despite such religious disagreements between Muslims, Christians, and Jews, all three religions worship the same God. Ever hear the saying 'opposites attract'? Well, if opposites attract, then similarities detract. Jews, Christians, and Muslims are so similar that they antagonize and fear each other because each knows their own agenda and thereby believe they know the other party's agenda, whose ideas and policies they believe they share.
Now this is definately not specific to these three religious communities, but is experienced by all human beings in all areas. I just wanted to point out the futility of criticizing Muslims and Christians when one's own religion shares many of the qualities of the religion they choose to criticize. ------------- Another year! Another deadly blow! Another mighty empire overthrown! And we are left, or shall be left, alone. -William Wordsworth |
Replies:
Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 06:18
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I have thought about that myself. I have had some "interesting" arguments with fellow christians in regards to Islam and Judaism. Sad really. ------------- "War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann 
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 06:33
Not entirely correct. While Jews, Christians and Muslims all do believe in the same figure, they do not exactly worship the same God. Each religion has their own idea of what that God is... these ideas are often incompatible. While the figure, os position if you will, is the same the actual God is different. It could be argued that Jews and Christians DO worship the same God, and this is true to an extent. The only difference being that Christians believe in Jesus, which is part of the trinity of God. As for criticising, you'll find most religious members do not criticise other religions on this forum. There will, of course, be exceptions. Alot of religion bashing goes on here, it's just not normally by religious people. ------------- |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 06:33
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Yep they are all pretty much different strands of the same faith, each configured to the culture and time in which they were invented (Bronze Age Palestine, Imperial Rome, Bedouin Arabia). ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 09:09
Yes I believe that as well that there is no bad Christianity, Islam, etc... people find excuses in religion to comit horrid acts. However, many times there are individuals who are misguided, but also deeply are convicted that their actions are part, or in line with their religious perscriptions. So discussing that is what we are trying to do not bash any religion.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 09:14
The Quran states the validity of the two previous "peoples of the book" as worshipers of God, similar to the worship of the muslims. Furthermore, it acknowledges the validity of the Torah, and the Bible as divinely inspired books. Christanity believes in God, the Trinity explains the aspects of God, but ultimately it stresses the unity of the three in onness of God, Judaism perscibes to a very close monotheism similar to Islam. What is incompatible between Islam, and Christianity/Judaism? I do not see your point, sorry, but the foremost authority of Islam acknowledges the onness of God in all three faiths, and the relation of the three in their worship of God. ------------- |
Posted By: Peteratwar
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 09:39
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Ultimately the same God but looked at in different ways.
Try looking at a white light thru a prism. You get all sorts of different colours but they all come from the same source.
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Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 11:33
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All three are basically the same religion. However they can't be worshipping the same god, surely. Logically, for three things to be identical they must exist. Something that doesn't exist cannot by nature be identical to something else that doesn't exist. If I said I had an imaginary friend and you said you have one it would be patently absurd for us to start wondering if their non-existant features are the same.
------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 12:07
Well I'm glad you found someone who'll listen to you Paul. Even if you can't see him 
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Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 13:33
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Christians worship Jesus Christ as their God, Jews and Muslims don't worship Jesus, so they don't believe in the same God. Very simple to understand
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Posted By: Peteratwar
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 15:52
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[QUOTE=Leonardo]
Christians worship Jesus Christ as their God, Jews and Muslims don't worship Jesus, so they don't believe in the same God. Very simple to understand /QUOTE]
As A Christian I worship God
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 16:05
One does not worship Jesus per se. I'm not going to struggle to explain the trinity at 2 in the morning. (someone else take it  )
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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 16:12
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You have to worship Jesus if you are Christian. Because as a Christian
you must worship God, and Jesus is a manifestation of God (if I am
remembering Council of Chalcedon ok).
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Posted By: Peteratwar
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 16:20
Not according to Jesus who was God's son. You worship the Father
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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 16:43
But Jesus is accepted in the Christian church as part divine (which means he is a manifestation of God) and part human. Or, if you are Monophysite Christian, he is entirely divine. And that is according to the Council of Chalcedon. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 17:09
As far as I understand Christians, Catholics in particular worship God in his entirety, and Jesus is one and the same as the father, and the holy spirit = God.
Jews worship that one God. Muslims worship that one God.
So ultimately they worship the same God, but have different interpretations, and understanding of the composition of God. In a way you could break down the trinity as three different aspects of the divine, just like there are ninety nine names of God in Islam that describe some of the infinte aspects of God. Judaism has a similar form of analogy. ------------- |
Posted By: ConradWeiser
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 20:15
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So, according to social theory, people strive to find differences amongst others so that they have someone that they can have power over. People generally strive to create a hiearchy in this way. The people worshiping different religions look at eachother, find the differences, and use those differences to justify oppression and to disinfranchise and blame others for problems they encounter in society. So what if a program was initiated to educate people as to the similarities (and differences) of the three religions? Would there not be less antagonism between the two groups?
In the United States, there is a strong (disputed) separation of church and state. Public schools, a state institution, are not allowed to teach about religion. I think that is poor judgement on our part. An unbiased approach to learning about the world religions several times throughout public schooling would help enlighten the populance to understanding. I know of many pious, intelligent, kind Christians who think that the muslim god (known as Allah) is some sort of heathen god or the devil. What they don't know is that Arabic Christians also call God Allah. Yahweh and Allah are really just Jewish and Muslim terms related to the heritage of each of the religions, not the religion itself. This sort of lack of understanding is really old too, I remember 'turn back the infidel(non-believer) from the Crusades and 'heretic' in Europe.
On that last note, its really ironic that the Pope felt like he had to keep the Holy Land in the hands of the 'believers' when really, the Holy Land has always been in the hands of believers, whether Jew, Christian, or Muslim. (unless, of course, you count the ancient empires) ------------- Another year! Another deadly blow! Another mighty empire overthrown! And we are left, or shall be left, alone. -William Wordsworth |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2007 at 03:31
Actually, the Popes and various other Christian leaders had no problems with the muslims in the holy land. It was only until Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah destroyed the Church of the Holy Sepulcher that Christians felt steps needed to be taken to protect these sights from the "mohammedian heretics". Nevermind the fact that Al-Hakim was later murdered due to his horrible rule and the church was rebuilt under the auspices of the Caliphate.
Not sure if this is a Catholic/Orthodox squabble but as I was led to understand Jesus is fully divine AND fully human at the same time. Because to lessen either role would negate his message in some way. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2007 at 03:52
Yes you are right, it is a quibbling difference but back then they loved to quibble over stuff like this. Christ is accepted in both Orthodoxy and Catholicism as having two natures, one divine and the other human.
However, it should be noted that funding for the new church was donated by Byzantine Emperor Constantine IX. ------------- |
Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2007 at 05:39
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2007 at 11:17
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What you're saying is that we have lots of parts and you're assuming it's a metaphorical elephant, siege tower.
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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2007 at 19:17
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well prove it's not ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2007 at 21:17
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If one is to believe that they all worship a "different" God, then arn't you accepting polythiesm by acknowledging that people worship various gods.
Most of the world religions have a notion of "creation", creation power.
The lamps are different but the light is essentially the same. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2007 at 03:19
Only if you say that said "different God" actually exists. If you say they worship a God which they believe exists, and is different to yours, but you do not believe it exists then it's still monotheistic. ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2007 at 22:37
But your accepting that they believe in a "different" God, for their to even be a notion of "other" Gods it would mean polythiesm.
There can only be one God if we are to be monothiest, those of other religions to yourself believe in the same God but have different interpretations. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 06:47
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Because there is One God it doesn't mean that others don't believe in false gods. While the three faiths do worship the same God, there are very different interpretations going around. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2007 at 07:58
No you're accepting that they believe in what they believe to be a different God. Simple as that. ------------- |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 00:16
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I do never get the reason why should people be interested in whom the other one believes and judge the person on that.
It is between God and the person, or Nature and the person, or Nothing and the person etc.
The fact that basically shall be understood is; it is not a multilateral relationship, it is a bilateral relationship, and it only binds its parties. ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: SuN.
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 06:28
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The three religions dont worship the same God. Even if they worshipped the same God, they would still fight They would find some other excuse to do so. For eg. language. If language is same they would fight over dialects. IF that is also same, they would fight over tribal loyalty. If that is also same they would fight for land or family. If everything is same they could form forum like AE & fight over "What if " threads. Uncertaininty is one of the fundamental necessities of humans. Whenever Uniformity encroaches upon the existence of uncertainity, fights will take place. |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2007 at 09:07
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This thread, "Jews, Christians and muslims worship the same God," along with several others, has been moved from "Intellectual Discussions" to the more appropriate "Philosophy and Theology" subforum. Sorry for any inconvenience. -Akolouthos
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Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2007 at 19:53
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They all worship the same God.
Jews refered to God as"Eloah" or "Elohim" in Hebrew.
Jesus refered to God as "Allaha" in Aramaic.
Muslim refer to God as "Allah" in Arabic.
They are all derived from ancient Semitic word "El" for God.
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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 07:11
That's not a good argument because they must be derived from the same qualities and not just the same name. I could join the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and claim a revealation that his name is Al, from the semitic word El, and by your logic that would make him the same God as the Abrahamic God, cause it comes from the word for God. Not saying that your logic isn't truthful but it can't be the sole basis of logic. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 20:18
But the problem is "El" or "Al" as in your case doesn't mean "God" in your language, but for all the languages I aforementioned they all mean one "God". Even before the advent of Islam, there were certain numbers of Arab monotheists who believed there was an universal almighty deity called "Illiah" and they believed it was the same God that Jews and Christians worshipped thru the revelation of Abraham. These people were called "Hanif" in Arabic. Mohammed was one of them before he became Prophet. It was later confirmed when Mohammed received revelation from God that Allah is the same God as Judaism and Christianity.
Judging from what I read from Jewish and Christian website, most of the Jews agree that Muslim is worshipping the same God as them although they question the legitamacy of Mohammed. Notheless, almost all the Christian websites denied this and claimed that Mohammed was possessed and the God he was worshipping was in reality a Jinn.
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Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2007 at 20:22
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Good discussion. Now I tell ya, isn't interfaith dialogue much better on AE than some of those other websites of particualr orientation? ------------- |
Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 16:53
More than likely the christian websites you were on were probably of the fundamentalist kind. Please correct me if Im wrong but doesnt Islam regard "jinn" as another race created by God that can not be seen by humans but are not angels and demons? This is how it was explained to me, in any case there is no theology of this kind found in christianity"Catholicism" that I am aware of. ------------- Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King. |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 17:19
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I think the big confusion about this line Jesus had no father his soul was directly put inside Maria. Christians see read this and say jesus must be the son of God than.(not all christians if i'm wrong) But in Islam this theory could never be accepted for the soul reason. God has no parents nor has he childern. so 'were all childern of God' doesn't work in Islam. I allways wondered why muslims didn't see Jesus as 'the savior'. They believe he will be the last prophet to walk on this earth. When was he comming again according to the Islamic prophecies? ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 19:29
Hello xi_tujue, Im not sure I understand completely your above post......Sorry. Chalk it up to my ignorance and lack of understanding, no doubt.
Jesus' soul was put directly inside Mary??? Wow, never heard any Christian sect believe anything like this...
------------- Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King. |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 21:22
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you tell me that christains believe that Jesus is teh son of Josef. It's that God put Jesus' life essance into mary. ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 22:50
The muslim consider Jesus Messiah but they dont acknowledge he is the son of God or God himself but just a Prophet. They believe he will rise up again to fight the Dajjal (Anti-Christ) on the Judgement Day along with Al-Mahdi.
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Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 23:08
By the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary
-That is the Catholic belief ------------- Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King. |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 23:10
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Do Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God?
No.
Though there are similarities, specifically with regard to the hypostasis that we Christians refer to as "the Father," the idea that we all worship the same God is untenable -- and that is putting it mildy.
 -Akolouthos
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Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 17:22
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I do believe Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God. However I must state my beliefs about the nature of their worship of the One True God.
I believe Judaism is a real and living revelation of God and in and of itself is complete. However, in aspects of all God's revelations of truth I believe Judaism is very much so incomplete.
I believe Muslims also worship the same God as well, but in a very heretical and distorted way.
I hope my words here werent at all offending
 http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html - www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html ------------- Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King. |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 18:16
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how can that not be offending?
------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 18:33
I truly am sorry if my words were offensive to you. That is a sincere apology.
However I must defend my post as it seems some(as noted above) may question my sincerety in my efforts at trying to post in an unoffensive manner.
I cant help but ponder that maybe the word "distorted" was possibly misinterpreted as offensive, I assure it wasnt meant in that fashion.
http://www.dictionary.reference.com/browse/distorted - www.dictionary.reference.com/browse/distorted
------------- Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King. |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 18:34
Well, it is certainly an honest representation of a personally held belief, which is based upon Christian theology. Of course the concept of exclusivistic theological notions will always "offend" someone. I am "offended" that Muslims and Jews refuse to acknowledge Jesus as the second person of the Blessed Trinity, but I certainly understand their refusal, given their particular set of beliefs. I would imagine that Muslims and Jews are "offended" by my rejection of their doctrinal tenets.
Bottom line, he wasn't trying to be offensive; he was simply stating what he feels is held as fact by many Christians. You may feel free to do likewise with regard to what is held by adherents to your particular faith.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 21:54
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I didn't say it offended me I couldn't care less about what his personal oppinion is. But sometimes it's better to keep certain 'thoughts' to ourselfs. U can't say to a person your whole theology is crap but I don't want to be rude. that doesn't make sence at all. If you gonna say it at least don't say your sorry. If you realy didn't want to hurt people you shouldn't have said it. Imo ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 22:07
I think I take your point, and I think it is a good one. Allow me, if you would, to offer an apology for the inclusion of apologies.
I believe -- and I am not the author, so feel free to correct me, arch.buff -- that the phrase "I hope my words here werent at all offending
," was included to indicate that the purpose of his post was to represent an authentic viewpoint, and not specifically to offend. In other words, while he realizes that the statement itself may be taken with some degree of offense, he was not stating it for the purpose of offending; in essence, the qualifier becomes an indication of good-will in the assertion of something that could, all to readily, be taken with ill-will. I agree that the semantics may be a bit off, but this sort of phrase has gradually developed as a means of apologizing for offense that may be taken from a statement by a reader, while indicating that the author is not sorry for essence of the statement itself. Just my guess.-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 22:40
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Also when Arch.buff said Islam is heretical , it sounds like he is implying the Islam faith itself is a cult while Christianity is the true religion. That's exactly how the Christian fundamentalists like Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, Pat Robertson said about Islam.
I am saying how I feel from a third person's point of view.
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Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 23:04
Um, yes; I assume that is what he was saying. That has, after all, been the Christian position since the advent of Islam. While you may like to cite Falwell, Graham, and Robertson, I prefer Saint John of Damascus, who wrote a treatise against the "Ishmaelites" a bit before the advent of modern fundamentalism.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 23:20
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Wow, seems my "offensive" words have become quite popular.
Among the many words used in this thread I cant but help notice just a few, such as -In My Opinion and point of view-
I hold these words in high regard because they are one of the few things we as humans have that are ours, and ours completely.
As for the implications that Killerbee and other forumers may seem to find in my post, I can not account. What I can account for is my words, which are documented herein as evidence.
Now, as xi_tujue has said, maybe I shouldnt say it if I think it maybe taken as offensive by some??? Then whats the use in speaking at all?? There is always the possibility of offense, and for that I am sorry.
If there is any confusion to what I believe, however insignificant, then you should refer to the initial post in question. My beliefs hold to that of the Catholic Faith.
------------- Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King. |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 00:17
If you mean worshiping in the same manner, Akolouthos your statement is entirely true. However the fact that Muslims and Jews worship none of the aspects of the Christian God is entirely false, according to Christian belief they are going the right direction on the wrong path.
Realistically though, doesn't Islam teach that Christians follow a heretical and distorted path? Actually I think the Jewish views on Christians are more harsh than that of Muslims. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 05:33
A qualified agreement. Yes, they do acknowledge some aspects of the Christian God, but it cannot be said -- even in a qualified fashion -- that they thereby worship the Christian God in any sense of the word "worship". After all, God transcends being; any "parts" stemming from an attempt to dissect Him may not be worshiped in any true fashion. Since the question deals with whether or not they "worship" the same God, I answered, accordingly, in the negative.
I suppose you could say that "they are going the right direction on the wrong path," but I should like to qualify this a bit; it could be easily misinterpreted, especially within the context of this discussion.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 08:57
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the main difference between Islam and christianity is from Islams point of view. That they see Jesus Christ as devine and Muslims don't accept Jesus christ as Lord & saviour the second one is accepted in Islam because Jesus Christ has the title Isa al Masih (Jesus the messiah) But the second one is kinda contradictory because. There is no God other Than the One God. I wonder what old christianity Looked like be4 it it became Roman = Catholic? ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 09:21
Could you please be a little more specific? Otherwise, I may only address your statements on a very general, point by point level:
Well, if there is a disagreement, it is from both of their points of view. And aye, Christians see Jesus Christ as divine, while Muslims do not.
Well, first Islam -- at least from a Christian perspective -- has no right to venture any opinion on revelatory doctrine, based upon the fact that the revelation had already been given to the divinized -- and divinely guided -- institution of the Church. I recognize that you have a different opinion, and you are free to articulate it.
As for the notion, "there is no God but God," you do understand how Christians define the Trinity, don't you? If so, then you should account for the defenses that already exist, rather than concentrating on criticisms that have long-since been responded to. If not, you should at least address precisely why you feel the defenses are not adequate. Anyway, we all know full well that the debate has progressed beyond the primitive point cited in this dialogue, so do let's catch up, eh?
 As for what Christianity looked like -- in the West -- before it became Roman Catholic: well, Orthodox, of course.
-Akolouthos
P.S. I do not wish you to think I am picking on you. I am, largely, simply raising issues that need to be raised on an general level -- and generally aren't. I assume that you already recognize the obvious fact that most of the suggestions that I have posit for the facilitation of intelligent dialogue are necessary. Indeed, I do have respect for your intelligence. If I come across as harsh, it is simply because I am admant in refuting your criticisms of the Christian Faith.
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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 11:12
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^aye I understand the Trinity and quite allot about christianity since I have been going to catholic school all my life. Catholic kindergarden, Elementary school, High school believe it or not my College is called Katholieke Hoge school Limburg= Cotholic College of limburg(province of belgium) I have had allot of difference teachers who teached religion(as it is called here) My favorite was a Italian Roman Catholic who's 'teachings' could be seen as 'Controversial'. He's still my fav teacher of all times ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 01:57
As to address your paramount question......you will find the "old" Church in the "same" Church which has the moniker: Catholic Church, or to expand on that specific label........Roman Catholic Church
On a bit of a side note: GO STEELERS!!!!!!! **bends down and begins to pray fervently for a win** ------------- Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King. |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 02:02
Incorrect.
For my previously stated positions on the subject, I would refer you to the following two threads:
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=16338 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=16338
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=21045 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=21045
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 03:56
While we''re being offensive and then apologising for it
Because no-one can quite understand what Christians are going on about when they explain the Trinity. Unarticulate explainers fail miserably to instill anything other than more confusion, while articulate explainers either provide a simple explanation that explains nothing, or a complicated explanation that takes effort to follow. Of course, who said religion had to be simple? But when you come from "There is no god but God" you kind of expect it to be. ------------- |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 04:07
Well where's the subsequent, meaningless apology, Omar? 
Well, perhaps part of the problem is that the Trinity itself cannot be explained or understood. Sure, we may "explain" it in the sense that we can indicate around it, but it is the most prfound mystery of the Faith. Because God, Himself, transcends being, explanations that we may use to explain aspects of being are certainly not going to be perfectly suited to "explaining" things about him. This does not mean that there is nothing to be gained from an investigative approach to fundamental theological questions, only that what is gained by this method will never be complete understanding.
So in essence, both articulate and inarticulate explainers are not to be faulted for their explanations; it is, rather, the inability of human reason to fully touch on the Essence of God.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 06:06
My Medieval studies and Christianity professor at UIC, Fanning notes that the early Church was a collection of Churches not a singular Catholic or Orthodox Church. ------------- |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 12:53
Yes and no.
While the early Church didn't possess the ability to hold general councils, owing to the periodic persecutions, we can certainly see it as a unified entity. Generally things were organized on a local or provincial level, but there was always a strong sense of intercommunion and collective doctrine. Since problems generally arose on a local or provincial level, this system was fine until the advent of more widespread heresy, which was facilitated by the development of legitimacy and communication in the fourth century. Furthermore, the local condemnations of heretics were generally recognized by the Church elsewhere. So while the early Church, at least before the end of the third century, was not organized in the same way that the Church was after the beginning of the third, it would be an oversimplicfication to state that it was a "collection of Churches". If he is referring to the Christian-gnostic, and other heretical sects, it is enough to say that they were outside the Church.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 02:01
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Intercommunication yes, but not a overwhelming unity such as displayed by the Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican churches. The centralization that those before mentioned display is not inherent in the early church. Your inclination to cast out "heretics" does not delude their status as Christian in my opinion. Wheter you include them within the Churches or not the Church of the 1 -3rd centuries was not the same as of now nor of the 4th in centralization. There existed a greater amount of autonomy on the local level, while intercommunication was an accepted norm as well.
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Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 02:43
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They worship the same god but different "avatars" of him God is the same guy but Jesus for Christians Mohamed for Muslims ?noone? for Jews or they are still waiting ------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 04:58
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Muhammed has never been worshipped by Muslim, nor does the Qu'ran even mention Muhammed in that sense. Muslims worship God, same as the Jews, and Christians. In the Jewish and Christians forms of theology God is one and there is no intercession between him and humanity. Jesus is accepted by Muslims as a legitimate prophet. Furthermore, Jesus is part of God through the trinity in Christianity. They all worship God through different measures and practices.
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Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 05:15
Intercommunion was the word I used, not intercommunication. This distinction is important. While there certainly was communication between the local manifestations of the Church, they found it difficult to organize on anything above a provincial level. Indeed, I noted this in my last post. I believe that you would have a bit of trouble finding an institution as old as the Church that has not undergone some process of development. This is completely in accordance with Christian ecclesiology; after all, the Holy Spirit is to lead the Church into all truth concerning the Revelation that has already been revealed -- that is to say, Christ.
As for the issue of heretics, while they may have self-identified as Christians, and while they may have shared a variety of doctrines with Christians, they are not Christians in the truest sense of the word. Certainly in Christianity, which has its foundation in a single Truth, we can allow that not every single individual who claims to adhere to the system is truly a practitioner/believer. The heretics were those who separated themselves from the single Body of Christ. They were Christians in the same sense that the Mormons or Jehova's Witnesses are Christian today -- that is to say, not at all.
Anyway, try to understand the development of the Christian Church in a historical context; I assure you, even if it is not the best way to go about understanding ecclesiology, it will probably make more sense to you that way. God bless.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 06:37
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Yes intercommunication between most of the manifestations. Inter-communion between the major ones that adhered to the most alike set of theological views. They were still autonomous elements rather than a monolith as we see with the Catholic Church today or the various Orthodox entities. In a modern perspective it was the same as the relationship between the various Orthodox entities who are for the most part autonomous, but remain unison through their inter-communion with the patriarch at Istanbul(Constantinople). ------------- |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 05:46
None, to the Jews (correct me if I'm wrong) their messiah is an earthly king, which is why many would not accept Christ who said that his kingdom was a heavenly one. Oh and you are way wrong with Muhammad, in fact he made special care that this would not happen with him after his death. Muhammad is more like St. Paul than like Jesus. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2007 at 23:01
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Islam and Christianity have major differences and to a degree different roots. If you want to see the difference then check out this site:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/ - http://answering-islam.org.uk/ I realize that Muslims believe in the same Prophets such as Moses etc and Isa/Jesus but there is a difference. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2007 at 07:12
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That site is definetly the wrong path to understanding the relationship between Islam and Christianity or learning about Islam. I will not go anti-Mormon.com to learn about Mormons... ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2007 at 07:14
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I've seen a handful of articles that verge on bigoted especially on superficial explanations of role of women in Islam. Sorry to say but Savage and this site won't bring you any closer to understanding Islam nor will it acheive any sort of proper dialouge. A better answer would be a dialouge between learned scholars of both, not people with a clear agenda.
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Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2007 at 18:08
 Pope Benedict prays in the Muslim way with the Turkish Islamic clerics during his visit to a Mosque in Turkey.
I doubt he will pray in Buddhist or Hindu Temple with Budhhist or Hindu way.
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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2007 at 18:11
Why would he? Neither group worships the "same" God as Jews, Muslims and Christians.... ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2007 at 20:30
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You make a good point Janus. ------------- |
Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 15:53
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A lot of the Muslim "Da'wah" materials I come across seem to be written directly at Christians. Why the need to convert us to Islam if we do worship the same God?
I am curious thats all.
A Muslim friend and I both discussed about our respective faiths. We both agreed that we do not worship the same God. I appreciated his honesty and candor. I was not offended by his views about Jesus, neither was he offended at mine.
But I do say he is moving away from Orthodox Sunni Islam though.....he's actually leaning more towards Sufi islam. Will be interesting to see where his path leads.
Peace, Salaam, Shalom, Pax Vobiscum! ------------- Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign |
Posted By: Władysław Warnencz
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 16:30
| A religion consists not only of the sole belief in God,but also of the moral teachings it preaches.Each religion says that some things are good and some evil.That's why there are contradictions between some religions.For example something can be considered in one religion as good,while in another as evil,so we can't say all religions are good...It is a matter of which religion you believe in. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 17:16
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I don't know what your friend is talking about, but Islamic theology , and the Qu'ran mention explicitly that we worship the same God.
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Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 17:21
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But doesn't the koran say that allah loves only those who are faithful to him and those who obey him?, whereas according to the bible God loves everyone and willforigve their isn's if they aks it of him, and doesn't allah lie?, whereas God doesn't lie. ------------- 
Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting) 
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 17:39
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God in the Qu'ran says that anyone who deserves heaven shall recieve it also. Christians and Jews are not hated by God. I guess doing extensive non-biased research would be a better route next time.
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Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 18:06
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So what is allah's defintion of someone who deserves heaven?, none of us deserve heaven it's only by the grace of God that we get there. And my research isn't biased all I did was ask a legitimate question which you havn't answered, why don't you read some of the sura's from previous post's in this thread? and you'll see about allah's attitude toward non-believer's. -------------
Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)
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Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 02:15
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I don't know what your friend is talking about, but Islamic theology , and the Qu'ran mention explicitly that we worship the same God.
Islamic theology may say that we worship the same God - but as we all know, Muslims don't believe in the Trinity. So how is it still the same God?
The Bible doesn't speak for Muslims, and neither does the Quran speak for Christians so if the Muslims insist that the God of the Christians is the same as Allah, then either one has to accept the Trinity, or the other has to reject the Trinity.
------------- Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 03:45
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Seriously what are you talking about? The bible is an integral part of Islamic thrology. Readt he Quran. Furthermore any Imam must be knowledgable in the Torah abd Bible. It is the same God. You have a different defenition on describing God and we too. ------------- |
Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 03:49
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If we worship different God's as you yourself said, then why did you say that we worship the same one? -------------
Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)
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Posted By: Carpathian Wolf
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 05:58
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This is the type of debate based simply on semantics. We have those who say we don't worship the same God and bring up some smart comments and then the people who say we do and bring about the whole peace and unity deal in. The truth is we won't know until we're all dead. Sorry folks that's just how it is. If you want to continue the whole "if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it does it still make a sound" type debate go for it. But the truth is what i just stated.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 07:12
What? I said we do, and added that the bible and torah are integral to islam being divine revelations and a necessary part in theological curriculum. ------------- |
Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 07:59
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Es Bih, we know that Muslims think that Jews and Christians have distorted the Taurat and the Injil.......and yet, you still talk about how the Torah and the NT are integral to Islam. If Islam claims that we use "distorted" books, why claim that Christians worship the same God they derived from their "distorted" sources. Difference of definition of God is good enough to separate the god of the Muslims and the God of the Christians. We believe that Jesus is God, appeared in the Torah as the "Angel of the Lord" and is cited in prophecies in the Torah.
You don't.
Still the same god?
Unless Christians confess that Allah has no son and he is not a Trinity, Christians will not believe that their God is the same as that of Islam. Unless Muslims confess that Jesus is God, Muslims will not believe the God of the Christians is the same as Islam's.
If, as you say that the Torah and the NT are part of the theological curriculum, why are Muslim scholars accusing us of doctrines we've never taught? Why are they making disastrous mistakes in interpreting Biblical texts?
------------- Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign |