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The Power of Prayers?

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Topic: The Power of Prayers?
Posted By: Northman
Subject: The Power of Prayers?
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 13:59

A little background ...
 
True events that I was following a few months back - and left me wondering.

A little 3 year old girl, lets call her Joyce, was hospitalized on May 31. She had what her parents believed was a seizure, but the hospital quickly deteremined that Joyce had a very serious heart issue. Something called restrictive cardomyopthy. It is an advanced form of this congential disease. The only soluiton is a new heart.

During the next month, family and friends could follow the ups and downs of her condition through daily journals from her parents on a special website, where people also could extend their thoughts, prayers and good wishes for the little girl to her and her family.
She did finally get a new heart, but on July 17'th, Joyce lost her battle and passed on.

I have never seen anything like it. During that short time, from June 8'th to July 17'th, 75.560 people visited her website - 2.409 entries in the guestbook - all filled with prayers and words about even more prayers from people and congregations all over the US.

Obviously, the prayers were not heard.... and it left me wondering about a few things.

- Wouldn't God have heard all these prayers - how big a cry does it take?
- If there is any powers in praying at all, why weren't all these prayers heard only concerning one person - a little girl from a religious home, who never had a vicked thought in her head?
- How can believers in praying continue to do so, - how can they pray for themselves or their close family after experiencing incidents like this?

~ Northman

 




Replies:
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 14:15
Hope springs eternal in the human breast;
Man never Is, but always To be blest:



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Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 19:22
I would say, though not studied in theology or anything that:

While God hears prayers, he can not interfere with faith. All those prayers do, is grant the person a peaceful life and safe passage to another world.


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Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 20:05
A serious issue, indeed. Once, educated as a catholic, i asked a priest a question that is close to yours.
 
Why God doesn't answer all this prayers of the victims of the wars around the earth.
 
He said, it's difficult to understand for a simple man, but its a tryout for us humans.
 
A tryout, i asked, a tryout over thousands and thousands of years ? Is god deaf or blind? A tryout for such a long period and he has no answer.
How long will this tryout last?
 
The priest said: "My sun, it takes as long as it pleased God."
 
That's too long for a short human life. Sorry, priest and sorry God, obviously we have to answer this prayers. With our language and with our options, as long as God takes his hibernation.
 
I was 13 then or even 12. But from that moment i realised that God and I didn't know the same world.
 
Today, after having kids myself, my point of view has changed a bit, but i wouldn't count on God if it's going to be difficult. 


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Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 20:52
Muslims pray the most out of anyone in the world. Europeans pray the least. So when there is a penalty shoot out between a Muslim and European side, there should only ever be one winner.
 
 


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 03:38

It's truly a mystery. I was maybe thinking that praying is somehow linked to the strong frequency of wavelength or something...



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Posted By: Comet
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 06:49
Originally posted by pekau

It's truly a mystery. I was maybe thinking that praying is somehow linked to the strong frequency of wavelength or something...




You know, in some ways, I would agree with this statement. I think we can take it a step further and actually say that the belief or faith of an individual...that confidence that someone is watching over us and willing to take care of us...can aid in changing the psyche. I know this isn't the greatest analogy, but take a look at what happens in sports. Many "underdog" teams find ways to win when they are consider long shots. When interviewed after the game, they would most likely tell you that "we believed in ourselves from the beginning"...or something similar. I agree it's a bit of a mystery, but I think your wavelength comment might be more of an explanation than one might think.


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 06:53

Of course, we could always use String Theory to justify any questions.Wink



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Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 07:28
     I know its odd to turn to a comedian for such complex matters, but I can't resist quoting George Carlin at this moment:

     "I say fine, pray for anything you want. But, what about the Divine Plan? Remember that? The Divine Plan. A long time ago, God made a Divine Plan, gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along and pray for something. Well, suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan. What do you want him to do, change his plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? Its a Divine Plan, whats the use of being God if every run-down schmuk with a two-dollar prayerbook and come along and fu** up your plan? And here's something else, another problem you might have. Suppose your prayers aren't answered, what do you say? Well, its God's will, Thy will be done. Fine, but if its God's will and he's gonna do what he wants to anyway, why the fu** bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me."

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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 07:37
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

     I know its odd to turn to a comedian for such complex matters, but I can't resist quoting George Carlin at this moment:

     "I say fine, pray for anything you want. But, what about the Divine Plan? Remember that? The Divine Plan. A long time ago, God made a Divine Plan, gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along and pray for something. Well, suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan. What do you want him to do, change his plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? Its a Divine Plan, whats the use of being God if every run-down schmuk with a two-dollar prayerbook and come along and fu** up your plan? And here's something else, another problem you might have. Suppose your prayers aren't answered, what do you say? Well, its God's will, Thy will be done. Fine, but if its God's will and he's gonna do what he wants to anyway, why the fu** bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me."
 
I can kind of see the point. Pray is not to have your wish granted. Pray is to build the relationship with God. If you want to have wish fulfilled, hunt down faires and kidnap Santa Claus.


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Posted By: Northman
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 13:17

Yes - people pray for a number of reasons, and their own relationship with God is certainly one of them.

However, I think most religious people also pray for everything they might hold dear, children, family, friends etc. Ie. 3 churches in the US had me on their prayer list a couple of years back when I was sick. 
In such a case, I can appreciate that God doesn't have time for an old bugger like me, so be it - but a little girl?
 
And what motivates people to continue to pray beside the reason in the quote gcle posted, when the prayers from thousands of people couldn't be heard?
 
(if anyone is interested in seeing the site about  Joyce, PM me)
 


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Posted By: Gharanai
Date Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 20:53
Well I would say it basicly depends on your belief and how you see the result of the prayers, as dear rider mentioned in his post that the Faith once written could not be then changed, so we all pray to Almighty only and only for an ease when we are in a bad condition, I really would like to know how many people are there around who pray to Almighty Allah in order to thank him for the good conditions that we have in our lives?
 
I am sure there won't be many, the only time most people remember Almighty is when they are in a bad situation, so in order to have a reply from Almighty and see his mercy on easing the situations we face (the situation could not be changed but just a bit eased), we shall also remember him in our good times and thank him for what he has granted us.
 
As far as I am concerned I would say I have faced many many difficulties in life and am thankfull to Allah that when ever I have asked him I have been granted sometimes soon and sometimes a bit late, and that's why I don't forget him in my good time as well.


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Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 01:24
Originally posted by pekau

I can kind of see the point. Pray is not to have your wish granted. Pray is to build the relationship with God. If you want to have wish fulfilled, hunt down faires and kidnap Santa Claus.


     Well some people see it as talking to God, and some would see it as talking to yourself. I just meant to say that you can pray if you want, just don't expect it to change reality a single bit.

     And most people pray for tangible things rather than to "build a relationship with God". When people pray they mostly speak about themselves and things that they want to be protected or granted. When has anyone said "hey God, how are YOU feeling, old friend?"


     P.S. Why would you want to kidnap Santa?!? The guy is a hero LOL

     Capturing a fairy might be a different story... some fairies are just cute girls with wings Tongue

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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 04:20
As usual I agree with Gharanai, and the quote from ArmenianSurvival had some important points too.

Now I have a slightly different experience in these matters, I have only every prayed for a couple of things, and have met with a 100% success rate. Now that is actually quite scary, and so I stopped asking for anything at all unless absolutely necessary. Now I only thank God for what I already have. If God grants you what you desire it is like a favour, you are even more indebted to God than were before*. God will only grant you a favour if you need it, if you really deserve it, and if you will become a better person because of it. If you go around praying for everything your not going to get anything. It is not about personal gain. If you ask for things that are contrary to the "Divine Plan" you not going to get it.
To ask for something in your prayers is to throw yourself on the mercy of God for a decision. If the Lord of Worlds decides that you, a very small part of the mechanism, deserves it, then you'd really better be prepared to repay the debt with piety.

As Gharanai points out, if you never remember the Almighty in the good times, and thank him for what he has already given you, your unlikely to get anything when you ask for it in the bad.

As for the case quoted, if God was to save every person from death the world would be impossible to run. Obviously people must die, and that includes little girls. The question is not "Why didn't God save this girl?" The question is "Why would God wish to save this girl?", which is of course unanswerable. Remember that God gave her the Ailment as well.

Originally posted by UvH

I was 13 then or even 12. But from that moment i realised that God and I didn't know the same world.

And why did you decide that yours was right? I would have assumed that my world was wrong, and God's was right.


*yes, I know infinity + 1 still = infinity.


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Posted By: Northman
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 09:44

Originally posted by rider


While God hears prayers, he can not interfere with faith. All those prayers do, is grant the person a peaceful life and safe passage to another world.

Originally posted by Gharanai

.......  that the Faith once written could not be then changed, so we all pray to Almighty only and only for an ease when we are in a bad condition.....
As far as I am concerned I would say I have faced many many difficulties in life and am thankfull to Allah that when ever I have asked him I have been granted ...... 

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


........... I have only every prayed for a couple of things, and have met with a 100% success rate. Now that is actually quite scary, and so I stopped asking for anything at all unless absolutely necessary. Now I only thank God for what I already have.

............. If you ask for things that are contrary to the "Divine Plan" you not going to get it.

Obviously people must die, and that includes little girls. .......... Remember that God gave her the Ailment as well.

When I summarize the above, I think I understand why the prayers for Joyce (or anyone for that matter) were not heard...

Basically, what you are saying is, The Allmighty God created a divine plan called faith, and nothing can change that plan - everything is pre-planned and everything happens because God decided it to happen way back.
So when we pray to God, its solely a selfish desire to ease our own pain and to thank Him, that His divine plan gave us food and allowed us to live this far.

We should sit idle and do nothing (not even pray) to help anyone in distress or danger. That would be to interfer with His divine plan and in best case it wil be ignored, but might even displease Him that we are so arrogant to question His divine plan - to ask for alternatives.

So I guess this also answers my last question - Billions of people continues to pray for their loved ones in spite of not being heard, because they don't understand this?

@Omar
Why on earth did you stop praying for favors because your prayers were heard? Wasn't that what you hoped for?
If I had those powers, I would make another prayer to help the millions of children all over the world who suffer and die from hunger, deceases, exploitation etc. etc.
Don't be scared - help the children.
 
 


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Posted By: Eondt
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 11:07
Hi evryone,
 
I enjoyed reading everyones views on this difficult topic. My own point of view is not too different from what has already been said.
 
I think that looking at the Lord's prayer you find that Jesus was teaching us to pray not only in a way that is appropriate but also the appropriateness of what you were asking for. Accept in your prayer that God's will is above all else. Give thanks for all your blessings, materially and spiritually. Ask for the strength to resist temptation, ask for forgiveness for your sins and for the strength to forgive others.
 
Like any parent, I don't believe God minds us approaching Him with our problems and request. I don't think that asking for someone to be spared (like with this girl) is wrong, we must just accept that it is a request that may not be in God's plans. For instance, who are we to be granted that the girl lives if her death served a higher purpose. Perhaps her death touched someone in a special way, saved someone. Also remember that, death, although something tragic and painful to us mortals left behind, might be a joyous homecoming in the heavens.
 
I also believe it isn't wrong to be angry or fight with God when you feel angry and want to fight. This is healthy and all part of building that personal relationship with Him.
 
Also @ Omar. Why do you think that being granted a prayer, you are now more indebted to God? Like any good Father, I don't think God keeps a scoresheet every time he grants a wish from one his children.
 
Kind regards,
 
Eon


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 15:19
Looks like a good turnout for this discussion. I'll quote that rector of rock and roll, Mick Jagger: "You can't always get what you want. And if you try sometime you find, You get what you need".
 
In Islam there are contact prayers (Salat) that begin with the Fatiha-the key, an attestation of faith, and can be followed up by verses in the Quran. These are not personalized prayers in the western sense. There are those too, and they are called 'dua'. This can be any request to God. I mention this because most muslims do know the difference between personalized prayers and religiously dedicated supplications.
 
Various religious faithful like to have optimism alongside their desired wishes. Yet, supposedly all favors rest with their higher power. Hence, not under the person's control any longer. Is prayer a good investment? In investment terms, are good returns the ones which give an immediate gain upon withdrawl or are they the ones (prayer) that bear fruitful interest over the years?
 
 It is bothersome to think that people are so fragile that after their desired wishes are prayed for and when most of them do not bring immediate results they are willing to pack up their bags and leave camp. Give up on their faith! Give up on their religion. That, to me, lacks broad perspective. As if the well wisher is a god themselves and that every good prayer must be answered. Wrong! People don't have that type of power. Being that their higher power may or may not have something to say is best left to father time. "God knows best' is an appropriate phrase in this matter.
 
Many on this thread have recalled the importance of appreciation. That's nice. Many have realzied that troubled times bring out the faithful in droves. Heck even disbeleivers are willling to try their luck in times of duress by offering prayers of any sort. Let's put this into another perspective. In medicine their is something called preventative healthcare and there is critical healthcare. In the preventaitve type, patients are given tools to maintain a good balanced lifestyle so that disease has little chance of occurance. In a critical condition treatments are immediate, often severe and the chance of success is limited due to the severity of chronic disease. In one there is the practice of 'healthy living' and the rational expectations about longevity and in the other lifestyle there is doubt, uncertainty and wreckless abandon where desperation is the game and blame is its name.
Religion is a similar paradigm when you take the practices of the 'believer' into this equation.   
 


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Posted By: Gharanai
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 16:19
@ Northman
 
Dear Northman, I don't know about others belief but what I know about my own is that this world is a stage of test and examination for all the beings (that includes the animals and plants).
We face different phases in this examination, sometimes we are granted happiness and examined that what would be our reaction, and then vic versa we face sadness and then we are tested for our reaction.
 
So this world is just a examination room for the life after death (that's what I would belief), how would you and I know that if the death of Joyce was a exam point for their parents?
 
I personally have seen many people who have lost their loved ones and not a single tears has dropped from their eyes while saying that "He/She was created by Almighty and is taken back by him, he took back what belonged to him". I don't say that they don't love them, in fact those lost would be their nearest loved one but still their reaction would be of total satisfaction.
 
So you see they may gain more point than a person who cries for the death of their loved ones (I mean PLEASE tell me how many people have come back once death after crying for them) in this examination. As we are created by Almighty Lord and he only as the right to take us back from this world.


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Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 04:51

Wow; this ranks up there with questions like the meaning of life, but I'll give my two cents anyway.  My view is god is omnipotent and therefore beyond human understanding same goes to his motives/actions/inactions etc.  Therefore, I look at it as being the girls' time to leave this earth.  A lame reason I suppose but one I believe.  Things happen for a reason.

With regards to praying; the reason I see things like this happen and I continue to believe in prayer is because god knows better than we do.  Humans are inately (sp.?) selfish, and one could say they don't know what is in their best interest even in this case.  That comedians' comments are rather useful in a perhaps vulgar sort of way.  We don't know what the future holds for us, presumably god would and therefore we must trust in his decisions.  I think that is where religion developed, explain things that don't make sense or are unexplainable, like the death of a child.  This is also why I don't understand this huge argument between science and religion.  They are not incompatable, only narrow short-sighted people would think so.  Science we can understand, god we can't.  There are plenty of things in this world we don't understand, like the case Northman has brought up, in this case the affairs of god.  They both live in harmony in body and more importantly in mind.  The lame excuse that science explains everything; how about explaining all of the inner workings of the human mind?  Humans are an odd, irrational group indeed.  Sorry to digress from the original topic there.

Hope that throws some light on the issue.  (perhaps over-estimating my own self-importance)Embarrassed


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 09:52
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

Well some people see it as talking to God, and some would see it as talking to yourself. I just meant to say that you can pray if you want, just don't expect it to change reality a single bit.

     And most people pray for tangible things rather than to "build a relationship with God". When people pray they mostly speak about themselves and things that they want to be protected or granted. When has anyone said "hey God, how are YOU feeling, old friend?"

 
Asking for favor is indeed among one example of building relation, but asking for favor should not be primary reason for praying...
 
 
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

P.S. Why would you want to kidnap Santa?!? The guy is a hero LOL

     Capturing a fairy might be a different story... some fairies are just cute girls with wings Tongue
 
Santa is currently the only being who dared to enter my room without my permission. I will hunt him down with the AK-47 model I got for 50 bucks in US. 


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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 23:13
At Northman's request I have decided to join this discussion.



She did finally get a new heart, but on July 17'th, Joyce lost her battle and passed on.

...

Obviously, the prayers were not heard.... and it left me wondering about a few things.


- Wouldn't God have heard all these prayers - how big a cry does it take?

God has heard every prayer, every want, every thanks that has ever been uttered, yet hearing a prayer, no matter how loud or loving can make him change his divine plan. To give an example we are to God as children are to us. A child will cry and beg to us for an ice cream cone for example, yet we know it isn't in the best interest of the child to get the ice cream so we deny the request. God knows that sometimes it is not in the best interest of the person for prayers to be answered. It might seem a bit cold and callous to us, but that is only because we do not know his divine plan. For instance what if by surviving from the transplant meant that 5 years down the road Joyce would be in far more pain than ever before for a far longer period. Perhaps it was divine mercy that ended her life.

Also lets assume that she lived but was in constant pain, then we would think that God was cruel and teasing us with the hope of life but a life of suffering. However if it was by that reasoning then any suffering in the world should negate the idea that God watches over us. It is important to note that suffering, pain and death in this world are not caused by God but by man and man's original sin. It is due to that fact, and I would argue necessary sin, that we all are partially removed from God and it is only through our belief that we can join with God.

It is important to note that even though Joyce's body has died her soul and the souls of all of us live on forever in the hereafter. Biological living is only a small portion of our true lives, and even though we feel her loss from us now, we can console ourselves with the knowledge that we will see her again, and in fact when we do see her she will know no pain, suffering or death for she will be in Christ's kingdom.


- If there is any powers in praying at all, why weren't all these prayers heard only concerning one person - a little girl from a religious home, who never had a vicked thought in her head?

This is an incorrect line of thought although a very common one. Suffering is not a punishment for sins, suffering is punishment for the sin (original sin). Which we all carry, even the smallest and most innocent of us. It is arrogant and prideful to imagine that we as humans can intercede as equals with God, even to think that we can quantify ourselves by addition (i.e. one human doesn't equal God but one million might). One man's prayer has as much weight with God as the prayers of a million.


- How can believers in praying continue to do so, - how can they pray for themselves or their close family after experiencing incidents like this?

God is not a magic genie. He does not listen to us and deliver "gifts" to those "deserving". God merely loves us and implores us to love each other, that is all of his children. You do not pray for things that you cannot do yourself, you pray for aid in things that you can do. Like for instance the prayers should not be to save Joyce and make her healthy or I'll stop believing, God does not bargain with us. Also in prayer it is important to note that we as mortals are naturally flawed and require God's grace to truly understand the world around us. This is why we must accept God's decisions as final and binding, even if we ourselves don't agree with the outcome.

Also, one should not just pray for the health and safety of family members alone but for all people. In fact we should also pray for the good fortunes and health of our most hated enemies, perhaps even before our own families. Not because doing this is pleasing to God and might influence him to aid our families (nothing can influence God). But because in doing so we become less flawed by our human nature and more aware of God's divine truth, so that we are able to handle events in our lives better.


...





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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 23:44
Now as to whether the Power of Prayer works....

There have been several studies to see if prayer can affect anything. And mostly it has shown mixed results. Here are a couple of studies I have found:


The above headline is the title of a story from the November 6, 2001 online issue of WebMD. The article starts off by reporting on two recent studies involving the use of prayer in medicine. In one of these recent studies, women at an in vitro fertilization clinic had higher pregnancy rates when total strangers were praying for them. In the other study the findings showed that people undergoing risky cardiovascular surgery have fewer complications when they are the focus of prayer groups.

Rogerio A. Lobo, MD, the chair of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Columbia University School of Medicine in New York City, published his study which appeared in the September issue of the Journal of Reproductive Medicine.  The fertilization research was conducted at a hospital in Seoul, Korea, and found a doubling of the pregnancy rate among women who were prayed for. 

The study involved 199 women who were undergoing in vitro fertility treatments at a hospital in Seoul, Korea, during 1998 and 1999. Half the women were randomly assigned to have one of several Christian prayer groups in the U.S., Canada, and Australia pray for them. A photograph of each patient was given to "her" prayer group. While one set of prayer groups prayed directly for the women, a second set of prayer groups prayed for the first set, and a third group prayed for both groups.

"We were very careful to control this as rigorously as we could," states Dr. Lobo.  "Neither the women nor their medical caregivers knew about the study, or that anyone was praying for them.  We deliberately set it up in an unbiased way. That meant not informing patients they were being prayed for, so it would not influence the women's outcome." 

The results of the study were that the women in the "prayed for" group became pregnant twice as often as the other women. "We were not expecting to find a positive result," says Lobo. "Researchers have re-analyzed the data several times, to detect any discrepancies, but have been unable to find any," he says.

http://www.chiropracticresearch.org/NEWS_power_of_prayer_in_medicine.htm - -Source

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

The question has been a contentious one among researchers. Proponents have argued that prayer is perhaps the most deeply human response to disease, and that it may relieve suffering by some mechanism that is not yet understood. Skeptics have contended that studying prayer is a waste of money and that it presupposes supernatural intervention, putting it by definition beyond the reach of science.

At least 10 studies of the effects of prayer have been carried out in the last six years, with mixed results. The new study was intended to overcome flaws in the earlier investigations. The report was scheduled to appear in The American Heart Journal next week, but the journal's publisher released it online yesterday.

In a hurriedly convened news conference, the study's authors, led by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist and director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston, said that the findings were not the last word on the effects of so-called intercessory prayer. But the results, they said, raised questions about how and whether patients should be told that prayers were being offered for them.

"One conclusion from this is that the role of awareness of prayer should be studied further," said Dr. Charles Bethea, a cardiologist at Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City and a co-author of the study.

Other experts said the study underscored the question of whether prayer was an appropriate subject for scientific study.

"The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion," said Dr. Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and author of a forthcoming book, "Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine."

The study cost $2.4 million, and most of the money came from the John Templeton Foundation, which supports research into spirituality. The government has spent more than $2.3 million on prayer research since 2000.

Dean Marek, a chaplain at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., and a co-author of the report, said the study said nothing about the power of personal prayer or about prayers for family members and friends.

Working in a large medical center like Mayo, Mr. Marek said, "You hear tons of stories about the power of prayer, and I don't doubt them."

In the study, the researchers monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals who received coronary bypass surgery, in which doctors reroute circulation around a clogged vein or artery.

The patients were broken into three groups. Two were prayed for; the third was not. Half the patients who received the prayers were told that they were being prayed for; half were told that they might or might not receive prayers.

The researchers asked the members of three congregations St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City to deliver the prayers, using the patients' first names and the first initials of their last names.

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.

In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for 59 percent suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.

"It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said.

The study also found that more patients in the uninformed prayer group 18 percent suffered major complications, like heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance.

One reason the study was so widely anticipated was that it was led by Dr. Benson, who in his work has emphasized the soothing power of personal prayer and meditation.

At least one earlier study found lower complication rates in patients who received intercessory prayers; others found no difference. A 1997 study at the University of New Mexico, involving 40 alcoholics in rehabilitation, found that the men and women who knew they were being prayed for actually fared worse.

The new study was rigorously designed to avoid problems like the ones that came up in the earlier studies. But experts said the study could not overcome perhaps the largest obstacle to prayer study: the unknown amount of prayer each person received from friends, families, and congregations around the world who pray daily for the sick and dying.

Bob Barth, the spiritual director of Silent Unity, the Missouri prayer ministry, said the findings would not affect the ministry's mission.

"A person of faith would say that this study is interesting," Mr. Barth said, "but we've been praying a long time and we've seen prayer work, we know it works, and the research on prayer and spirituality is just getting started."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1 - -Source

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So basically, you can make our own assumptions based on the data, but from what I gathered praying for those you don't know and don't know they are being prayed for increases the likelihood of prayers being answered. Perhaps this is because by praying for complete strangers we are becoming better aware of God's divine plan.


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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.


Posted By: longshanks31
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 22:53
a prayer plus an empty sack is worth an empty sack.

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long live the king of bhutan


Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2007 at 02:26
Originally posted by longshanks31

a prayer plus an empty sack is worth an empty sack.
This-post-of-yours-made-no-sense-at-all,-and-I-think-you-are-an-idiot,-but-I-am-so-not-going-to-drop-down-to-your-level-and-admit-it-to-your-face


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"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann



Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2007 at 03:29
Originally posted by Northman


Basically, what you are saying is, The Allmighty God created a divine plan called faith, and nothing can change that plan - everything is pre-planned and everything happens because God decided it to happen way back.
So when we pray to God, its solely a selfish desire to ease our own pain and to thank Him, that His divine plan gave us food and allowed us to live this far.

We should sit idle and do nothing (not even pray) to help anyone in distress or danger. That would be to interfer with His divine plan and in best case it wil be ignored, but might even displease Him that we are so arrogant to question His divine plan - to ask for alternatives.

So I guess this also answers my last question - Billions of people continues to pray for their loved ones in spite of not being heard, because they don't understand this?

No.
What is important to understand is that God is not there for the well being and desires of human beings. He has his own plans, and we must understand that. We must also understand that our free will is a part of that plan. God will grant our prayers if he desires, and will refuse to grant them if he desires.
God is the boss, if he does us a favour be grateful and thankful and hopefully he'll do you another when you need it.
@Omar
Why on earth did you stop praying for favors because your prayers were heard? Wasn't that what you hoped for?
If I had those powers, I would make another prayer to help the millions of children all over the world who suffer and die from hunger, deceases, exploitation etc. etc.
Don't be scared - help the children.

Because praying for favours I don't need is greedy, I don't have those powers, I got a favour. Praying "to help the millions of children all over the world who suffer and die from hunger, diseases, exploitation etc. etc." is downright arrogant. I am in no position ask for a favour for a person I have never met, and never will meet. It is possible that I may ask for help in helping said people, but I'll do it myself and not ask for magic. Who am I to suggest that God made a mistake?
Originally posted by longshanks31

a prayer plus an empty sack is worth an empty sack.

You can do alot with an empty sack.

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