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Are Albanians related to Greeks?

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Category: General History
Forum Name: Archaeology & Anthropology
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Topic: Are Albanians related to Greeks?
Posted By: Bosnjo
Subject: Are Albanians related to Greeks?
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 20:47

Some Serbian Nationalist claim that Albanians were imported by the Osmans from the Caucasus to the Balkan Peninsula.

 



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I am heavely armed, entirely sick and extremly nationalistic.



Replies:
Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 23:27
While it is true that there was in fact an "Albania" in the Caucasus during Hellenistic and Roman times, these Caucasian Albanians spoke a Caucasian language related to Lezgian.  The language of the present-day Udis seems to be the modern descendant of ancient Albanian.  The language of the Balkan Albanians however, is an IE language.  IE languages are inflective languages while Caucasian languages are agglutinative. 


Posted By: Aristoteles
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2005 at 00:26

Albanian language made its first formal appearance in the 1500s. The Albanian national identity was "created" by the same time.

There is little doubt that the Osmanli "imported" a large mass of Caucasian Albanian, as loyal subjects and mercenaries into the Balkans. And, yes, they settled them in the land known now as Albania or "Shqiperia" as its inhabitants call it.

But it would be not very accurate to attribute the ethnogenesis of the Albanian people solely to those Caucasian Albanian. Sure they added to the mix, but they were not the only ones.

I wouldn't go as far as to claim that the Albanians are indeed Illyrians (as they claim, in order to facilitate the very Balkanic "I was here before you") moreso they are a mixture of various elements - among these of course Illyric, but also Latin, Thracic, Slavic, Greek, Turkic and certainly the Albanians of Caucasus.

On a related topic, there seems to be a certain controversy as to where this name (Albania) comes from. Several theories:

- Latin word for "white" (Alba)

- Tribe of Albi or Alvoi or Alvanoi (a small and rather insignificant mountainous Illyrian tribe, first recorded by Greek geographers in the 2nd century AD).

- The Caucasian Albanians (and that begs for another answer: where did they get the "Albanian" name themselves...)



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Trying to educate the ignorant, leads only to frustration


Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2005 at 00:55

I've been trying to find documentation on the so-called Ottoman "importation" of Caucasian Albanians but with no luck.  Instead I found this from the History Channel Forums:

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=100034380&tstart=0&start=-1 - http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=100034 380&tstart=0&start=-1

This theory seems to make more sense.  The Armenians seemed to have absorbed Caucasian Albania by the 7th century and the name no longer is extant even to the present day in the region.  Then the western Balkan Albanians are in evidence by the 15th century.  If in the period between these dates the name was no longer extant, how could Ottomans supposedly imported "Albanians"?. 

Caution however is warranted.  The book that he quotes from, I have, and that quote is taken out of context.  Just after that sentence he writes "Nor should one be less cautious towards the authenticity of the vivid protrayals of defeated Illyrians by Roman sculptors..."  In other words the anthropological and artistic portrayals of Illyrians are inconclusive.  On the other hand he does describe continuity of archaeological evidence down to the appearance of the "Arbanites" in the 11th century.  He also stresses that the name Albanian in the eastern Balkans is older than the name Shqiper- which only occurrs in the wake of the Ottoman invasions of the Balkans in the 15th century. 

 

 



Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2005 at 19:41
There are actually several theories about the origin of the Albanians.

Actually it wasn't the Ottomans that converted the Albanians of Caucasus to Islam and later used them as shock troops but the Arabs in the 7th cent.

With the coming of the Arabs, they converted the Albanians in the 8th century to Islam. But meanwhile, at the time, the Arabs were waging campaigns in Sicily, dividing it into two parts, (hence there was the Kingdom of the two Sicilies). In order to populate their part of Sicily, the Arabs brought with them (Albanians) from the Caucasus. To this day, their descendants live in Sicily.

Then in 1042, the Byzantine Empire attacked the young Serbian state after having defeated the Arabs in Sicily and having brought the Sicilian Albanians under their command and Christianizing them. The leader of the Byzantines who led the Albanians was named Georgios Maniakos. Maniakos brought Albanian mercenaries from Sicily to fight the Serbs and they settled in two waves in modern day Albania, first the mercenaries came, and then came the women and children. After the defeat of Maniakos, the Byzantines would not let the Albanians return, thus the Albanians requested that the Serbs let them stay on the land. They settled under mount Raban and the city of Berat and from this, the Serbs called them "Rabanasi" or "Arbanasi". The city of Berat was known as Belgrad also, before the Albanians came to settle there. They mostly tended sheep and cattle and lent themselves out to Serbian nobles as brave soldiers.

Avery interesting fact is that the Chechen language is similar to Albanian. They both have similar grammar and similar sounds such as SQ, PSHQ, which are not common in any IE languages, but are very common in Caucasus languages like Chechenian.

Some, of a long list of examples:
CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA
ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA
Chechen=aakharkho,Albanian=katundar,English=peasan t
Chechen=alsamoo,Albanian=me shume,English=more
Chechen=aagan,Albanian=eker,English=wild
Of course you'd need to know the languages in order to understand the sound similarity, since spelling doesn't really help.

These are just a few, of the many identically named towns, cities and villages in Albania and the Caucasus :

Albo-Arnauti -Caucasus- Arnauti
(Turks and Balkan peoples call Albanians by this name; likely from arch. Turk: Arran)
Albo-Bushati - Caucasus-Bushati (also the name of an Albanian tribe)
Albo-Baboti - Caucasus-Baboti
Albo-Baka -Caucasus-Bako
Albo-Ballagati - Caucasus-Balagati
Albo-Ballaj,Balli - Caucasus- Bali
Albo-Bashkimi - Caucasus-Bashkoi
Albo-Bathore- Caucasus- Batharia
Albo-Bater- Caucasus- Bataris
Albo-Geg - Caucasus-Gegi, Gegeni, Geguti (Term used by Albanians in their language to denote their brethre north of the Shkumbi R.)
Albo-Demir Kapia - Caucasus-Demir Kapia (Turkish term: "iron gates"; term by which Turks refered to the Caspian Sea or arch: Albanian Sea)
Albo-Kish, Kisha... - Caucasus-Kish (Eight different toponyms in Albania begin with "kish")
Albo-Kurata,Kuratem,Kurateni(villages)-Caucasus-Kura (river) (Nine different toponyms in Albania begin with "Kura")
Albo-Luginasi - Caucasus-Lugini
Albo-Rusani - Caucasus-Rusian
Albo-Sheshani, Shoshani, Shashani - Caucasus-Shashani
Albo-Sheshaj, Sheshi - Caucasus-Sheshleti
Albo-Skalla - Caucasus-Skaleri
Albo-Shiptari Shipyaki, Shkhepa, - Caucasus-Shkepi
Albo-Shkoder - Caucasus-Shkeder, Shked, Shkoda
Albo-Shekulli - Caucasus-Shekouli
Albo-Skuraj - Caucasus-Skuria

The Albanian language is totally alien to Illyrian (based on the Messapic inscriptions found)

Illyrian-"alt"= (a stream) Albo -"LUMΛ, RRYMΛ, CURRIL, RRΛKE, PΛRRUA, NIVEL"
Illyrian-"barba"= (a swamp) Albo -"MOΗAL"
Illyrian-"bra"= (brother) Albo-VΛLLA, SHOK
Illyrian-"mag"= (great) Albo- FAMSHΛM, KRYESOR, FISNIK, SHKΛLQYER
Illyrian-"brisa"= (grapes) Albo-RRUSH
Illyrian-"metu"=(between) Albo-MES,NDΛRMJET
Illyrian-"oseriates"=(lake) Albo-LIQEN, PELLG
Illyrian-"plo"=(strong) Albo-FORTΛ, THANTΛ
Illyrian-"rinos"=(cloud) Albo-HIJE, RE, TUFΛ
Illyrian-"sybina"=(a spear) Albo-SHTIZΛ
Illyrian-"teuta"=(a tribe/people) Albo-FIS, KLAN/ POPULL, KOMBΛSI, GJINDE
Illyrian-"ves"=(kind) Albo-MIRΛ, DASHUR, SJELLSHΛM

Now if we look at whatsome linguists have said, we once again see that the possibility of Albanians being connected to Illyria is "slim"

1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shkφder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.

2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Romanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
(this is from another theory that proves your origin to be somewhere in Carpathia)

3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.

4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.

5.The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Romanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Romanians, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftλ

Sources :
H. Kronasser, ‘Zum Stand der Illyristik’ (Linguistique Balkanique, IV, 1962, pp. 5 ff.); R. Katicic', 'Namengebiete im rφmischen Dalmatian" (Die Sprache, X, Vienna, 1964, pp. 23 ff.); id., Illyrii proprie dicti (iva Antika, Skopje, XIII/XIV, 1964, pp. 87 ff.); id., 'Suvremena istraivanja o jeziku starosjedilaca ilirskih provincija' (Nauno društvo SR Bosne i Hercegovine, IV, Sarajevo, 1964, pp. 9 ff.); G. Alfφldy, 'Die Namengebung der Urbevφlkerung der rφmischen Provinz Dalmatia’ (Beitrδge zur Namenforschung, 15, Heidelberg, 1964, pp. 54 ff).

Sorry bout the long post.



Posted By: Aristoteles
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2005 at 23:02

Very good analysis, Phallanx. Gives us all much food for thought.

Sharrukin, the Word Shqiper (people of the eagle, or something like that) was used practically after the Byzantine empire has seized to exist. And of course long after Georgios Kastriotis (the national hero of the Albanian nation - interestingly he precedes the Albanian nation itself ) has adopted the Byzantine Imperial Eagle as his symbol... I see a clear connection here.



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Trying to educate the ignorant, leads only to frustration


Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2005 at 02:57
Originally posted by Aristoteles

Very good analysis, Phallanx. Gives us all much food for thought.

Sharrukin, the Word Shqiper (people of the eagle, or something like that) was used practically after the Byzantine empire has seized to exist. And of course long after Georgios Kastriotis (the national hero of the Albanian nation - interestingly he precedes the Albanian nation itself ) has adopted the Byzantine Imperial Eagle as his symbol... I see a clear connection here.

Byzantine Imperial Eagle symbol was taken from Seljuk Turks.

Albanians were living in Balkans when Ottomans entered to the Balkans but in fact there were not Greeks in Greece!!!  Athens was only a small village. Ottomans fought against Venetians and Genoises Italians to take the Morea and other islands. Most probably Greeks are related with Albanians and of course with Bulgarians.

 



Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2005 at 15:48
Alparslan

Byzantine Imperial Eagle symbol was taken from Seljuk Turks.

Albanians were living in Balkans when Ottomans entered to the Balkans but in fact there were not Greeks in Greece!!!  Athens was only a small village. Ottomans fought against Venetians and Genoises Italians to take the Morea and other islands. Most probably Greeks are related with Albanians and of course with Bulgarians.


It would be even more interesting if it was actually true.

Seljuks??????

The city of Constandinopole was originally dedicated to Artemis/Diana who's symbol was the cresent, only later to be dedicated to the virgin Mary who's symbol the star, and was added to the cresent on the flags. There are numerous accounts, that when the Turks took possesion of Constandinopole they saw many flags with the star and cresent and adopted them as an omen of good luck and it was similar to the tamgha of the house of Osman, that was a bow. After that it became the symbol of Muslim identity.


Albanians????

Turkish censuses carried out in 1455, indicate that Albanian names are found in only 80 of the 600 villages listed in the area of Illyria and Hellas, and that they did not constitute territorial groups, ruling out any assumptions that zones evenly and continuously inhabited by Albanians existed at the time.


Venetians and Genoises Italians?????

Despotate of Morea

Cantacuzenus dynasty
Manuel        &nbs p;         1348&nbs p;   1380    son of John VI
Matthew        &nb sp;        1380 &nb sp;  1383    son of John VI
Demetrius        & nbsp;     1383    1383    son of Matthew

Palaeologus dynasty
Theodore I         ;      1383    1407    son of John V
Theodore II       &nbs p;     1407    1443    son of Manuel II
Constantine XI Dragases        1428    1449    son of Manuel II
Thomas        &nbs p;         &nbs p; 1428    1460    son of Manuel II


1460: The Turks, under Mehmet II, conquer Morea



Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2005 at 15:54
Byzantine Imperial Eagle symbol was taken from Seljuk Turks.

The Imperian Eagle symbol came from Rome long before the Seljuk Turks were on the scene.


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2005 at 15:57
Man, was my post off topic or what?
For some reason I was fixed on the cresent star symbol. LOL


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2005 at 10:09
some little corrections

illyrian---------------------------albanian

barba(swamp)-------------------berrak (swampy soil) balta (soil)
bra(brother)---------------------vlla not velle(brother)
b-->v  'v' is many times changed into 'b' in ind.eu.langauges...like Europa-Evropa; Basil-Vasil, Beta-Veta...
can(dog)------------------------qen(dog)
mag(great)----------------------madh(great)
plo(strong, powerful)-------------plot(alot, numerous)
rinos(clouds)---------------------reh(clouds)
tertigio (a merchant)-------------tregtar, trege(market)

this are maybes, (questionable)
lugo(pool)------------------------liqen(lake)
the alb.word "liqen" it is clearly of the origin of the latin word "laecius", where the letter "c" is very easily to be replaced with albanian "q"..si kilo, qillo etc...(kilogram)
metu(between)-------------------midis,mes(between)
daunus(is not wolf?)--------------------dhemb or dhamb, dhune(teeth)
*dhaw- 'to suppress, to kill' -------   dhune
brisa (husks of grapes)------------bistak(grapes)



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2005 at 10:21

Originally posted by Phallanx

Alparslan

Byzantine Imperial Eagle symbol was taken from Seljuk Turks.

Albanians were living in Balkans when Ottomans entered to the Balkans but in fact there were not Greeks in Greece!!!  Athens was only a small village. Ottomans fought against Venetians and Genoises Italians to take the Morea and other islands. Most probably Greeks are related with Albanians and of course with Bulgarians.


It would be even more interesting if it was actually true.

Seljuks??????

The city of Constandinopole was originally dedicated to Artemis/Diana who's symbol was the cresent, only later to be dedicated to the virgin Mary who's symbol the star, and was added to the cresent on the flags. There are numerous accounts, that when the Turks took possesion of Constandinopole they saw many flags with the star and cresent and adopted them as an omen of good luck and it was similar to the tamgha of the house of Osman, that was a bow. After that it became the symbol of Muslim identity.


Albanians????

Turkish censuses carried out in 1455, indicate that Albanian names are found in only 80 of the 600 villages listed in the area of Illyria and Hellas, and that they did not constitute territorial groups, ruling out any assumptions that zones evenly and continuously inhabited by Albanians existed at the time.


Venetians and Genoises Italians?????

Despotate of Morea

Cantacuzenus dynasty
Manuel        &n bs p;         1348&nbs p;   1380    son of John VI
Matthew        & nb sp;        1380 &nb sp;  1383    son of John VI
Demetrius        &am p; nbsp;     1383    1383    son of Matthew

Palaeologus dynasty
Theodore I         ;      1383    1407    son of John V
Theodore II       &nbs p;     1407    1443    son of Manuel II
Constantine XI Dragases        1428    1449    son of Manuel II
Thomas        &n bs p;         & ;nbs p; 1428    1460    son of Manuel II


1460: The Turks, under Mehmet II, conquer Morea

 

To the right you see the flag of Turkiye. There are many imitators, but they are just that... Due to the 1,000 year fight of Muslim Turk and Christian Europe, the symbols have come to be mistakingly representative of Islam by Europeans and now the world. The Crescent Moon and Star (Sun during the Ottoman Empire) are ancient Turkish celestial symbols of power originating from the Turkish, ancestoral lands of Siberia and Central Asia.

 Its origins are not Arabic or Persian and it can not be Islamic due to the strict, religious doctrines forbiding the usage of any symbols or the painting/drawing/sclupting of human faces... these very important religious facts are disregarded today by those trying to claim the Moon & Star as their own today.

Needless to say, the origins of the Crescent & Sun/star are in fact Turkish from ancient times, pre-Islamic. The Turks believed in Shamanisim and more importantly the one supreme Sky God (Tanri) along side others gods like that of the Moon & Sun, when they roamed nomadicaly on horseback in the steppes of Siberia & central Asia.

In the 10th century, the Turks accepted Islam on their own will and conquered the Middle East. Witin a few centuries, the Turks became extremely powerful and strected an empire from the gates of Vienna, Austria, Russia all the way to Spain in the west. They brought into Islam their own free spirit, dynamizm, Turkish culture, superstitions and serious beliefs as well. This is the origin of how the Crescent Moon & Star came into the Islamic world.

 The importance of the celestial bodies can be seen in many Turk epics, poems, songs, names etc... One quick example is that of the legendary leader of the Western Turks, Oguz Khan, named his first 3 born Sun, Moon, & Star emphasizing the importance of the celestial objects to Turks. The founder of the Ottoman Turkish empire, Osman, had a dream in which he invisioned a Crescent Moon stretching over the Earth, he took it as a good sign and made it the symbol of his dynasty. Where ever a Turkish army met with a Euro-Christian one, of course it would be seen that the Turks used a Moon and Europeans assumed that this was the symbol of Islam used by muslim people. [this was wrong of course, as I said no symbols are allowed, but Turks quite often incorporated their own beliefs and free spirit regarding the religion]

 So, over the 1,000 year fight of Muslim Turk and Christian Europe, the symbols have come to be mistakingly representative of Islam by Europeans and now the world. The Crescent Moon and Star are ancient Turkish celestial symbols of power originating from the Turkish, ancestoral lands of Siberia and Central Asia. You see for a 1000 years Turks were the warriors, the leaders of Islam so it is not unusual that our symbols have been adopted by many present-day countries that are by a majority muslim. But it doesn't mean that the symbols are Islamic or muslim. Unfortunately, this confusion will most likely never be cleared up. It is very deep in the minds of the world, even the Muslim world.

Interesting note: The representative color of all Turks in the world is Skyblue or Turquiose, but we have also ascribed color to the four cardinal directions (North=Black, East=SkyBlue, South=White, & West=Red). Therefore, the Red background is used to indicate that we are the most geographically western of our family. (Over time and among the folk, the color has also come to represent the Turkish blood shed over the centuries of warfare.)

Also today, none of the Arabic countries use these symbols in their flags. The ones which are using these are influenced with Turkish beliefs...



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2005 at 10:37

The Ottoman flag was not formed when they saw the flags in the way to Ýstanbul. It was gifted to Ertugrul Begh, Osman Gazi's father as a "sancak" of his "uchbeghlik" by Aleaddin Keykubad, the khan of Seljuks of Rum...



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2005 at 12:04
Also some little corrections

Albo-Bushati (name of an Albanian tribe) is the transform of the name catolic balsha in myslim bushati
Albo-Bashkimi (united) is a toponim of last 50 year(during the comunist regime)
Albo-Ballaj,Balli (signify front)
Albo-Bathore (field of bean) bath (an type of bean)
Albo-Geg ---Is not an toponim, but an goup of people
Albo-Demir Kapia is not an albanian term, is an turkish term
Albo-Kish, Kisha...(Eight different toponyms in Albania begin with "kish") kish-a signify church
Albo-Luginasi (significaty valley)
Albo-Sheshaj, Sheshi, Sheshani (significaty square)
Albo-Shkoder from the ancient Scodra
Albo-Shekulli (is not name of vilage sigjificaty century – from latin)

in albanian some term are from the ancient greek
shpelle , moker , draper , qershi etj



Posted By: Kuu-ukko
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2005 at 12:59
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Also today, none of the Arabic countries use these symbols in their flags. The ones which are using these are influenced with Turkish beliefs...


Tunisia, Algeria and Mauritania have the exact same symbols in their flags, but they aren't influenced by Turkish beliefs, they have nothing to do with Turkey. The only thing common with for example Algeria and Turkey is Islam. What we can conclude from this............


neritan aren't Albanian and Illyrian recognized with some other language as originating from a same proto-language? PS. Nice examples about the similarities


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2005 at 18:06
Originally posted by Aristoteles

Albanian language made its first formal appearance in the 1500s. The Albanian national identity was "created" by the same time.

There is little doubt that the Osmanli "imported" a large mass of Caucasian Albanian, as loyal subjects and mercenaries into the Balkans. And, yes, they settled them in the land known now as Albania or "Shqiperia" as its inhabitants call it.

But it would be not very accurate to attribute the ethnogenesis of the Albanian people solely to those Caucasian Albanian. Sure they added to the mix, but they were not the only ones.

I wouldn't go as far as to claim that the Albanians are indeed Illyrians (as they claim, in order to facilitate the very Balkanic "I was here before you") moreso they are a mixture of various elements - among these of course Illyric, but also Latin, Thracic, Slavic, Greek, Turkic and certainly the Albanians of Caucasus.

On a related topic, there seems to be a certain controversy as to where this name (Albania) comes from. Several theories:

- Latin word for "white" (Alba)

- Tribe of Albi or Alvoi or Alvanoi (a small and rather insignificant mountainous Illyrian tribe, first recorded by Greek geographers in the 2nd century AD).

- The Caucasian Albanians (and that begs for another answer: where did they get the "Albanian" name themselves...)

For many years is supposed that Albanians came from too many places that includes from Scotland To Mongolia.I have 2 simple questions for you

1.At what year the name Greek(greeks)was used?

2.Where was the boundary of the known hellenic people according o ancient historygraphers as Plinius, Strabonus ecc.?

Now i'm telling you something about the etimiology of the Albanian appelative.It was a medieval name as one of the little tribes living here.The earlier name was Arberia.As to your ideas that albanians came from caucasus i think that e descendance of thousands people in the 1033 across Europe will be notified by the historians. According to Strabonus the north of Peloponesus was inabitated by barbarian tribes(didn't spoke a language comprensive of Strabonus).To the other hand none of the Illyrians tribes was named albi nor alva neither alvanoi.Probably the map you've seen(if you really have seen one)is medieval.Genetically speaking(and this is a science not an opinion)is more likely that the socalled odiern greeks came from caucasus.Albanians are bracicefals and not dodikocefals as the habitants of caucasus or the mediterrenean peoples.At the other hand Albania was occupied from turks 73 years after whole balkans(the so called Greece too)was occupied.It's not possible that turks have imported caucasic tribes only in albania and nothing at the other countries occupied  for so many years.To the albanian ethnogenesis i can se that the latins weren't interessed to colonize(maybe a small part of amministrative)other countries,with the thracs maybe this is true near the boundary.But you must explain me what you intend when you say Thracs.Turning ourselves to the Albanian language it was written in many epitaphes and statues found from Austria to Thesaloniki.Can you explain me the odiern greek when was written?And you know that you can't tell me that was the language of Homer or Aristotelis.So don't tell to the others "your" story making a system only basing yourself to the origin of amedieval name.

 



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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2005 at 00:51
Scotland?
I hope your not confusing it with Albany which is something different.


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2005 at 01:59

Originally posted by Kuu-ukko

Tunisia, Algeria and Mauritania have the exact same symbols in their flags, but they aren't influenced by Turkish beliefs, they have nothing to do with Turkey. The only thing common with for example Algeria and Turkey is Islam.

Just to remind you Ottoman Empire. Algeria and Tunusia was inside the Empire during 300 years. Morocco was outside of the empire.

 

 

 

 



Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2005 at 02:35
The Greek population was not displaced by Albanians and if fact there were many Greeks in the lower Balkans by the arrival of the Ottomans Turks. I would agree there Greeks today do have a mix of various ethnic groups. Like my old college professor use to say, "The Greeks are the descendants of the ancient Greeks plus everyone else who came along." Some great scholars on this topic are; Steven Runciman and John Julius Norwich. I would add more but it is late!! Pacific standard time-USA

Were you talking about the two headed eagle? If so, that goes way back to the ancient Hittites, long before the Turkish incursion. The eagle was the standard of the Roman Empire, also long before the Turks came.

The eagle totem is a common symbols in cultures throughout the world, even in Mexico before the white man came.

See legend below:

By AD 1325, according to legend, the wandering Mexica tribe (Aztecs) wished to build a permanent city. They have been told by the gods to build their city in the spot where an eagle, perched on a cactus, would be seen eating a snake. The symbols were found in a region of lakes and islands. It was in this area where the Aztecs founded their great city of Tenochtitlán, right where we have today's Mexico City.
http://www.gnosticassociationny.org/eagle_legend.htm


Posted By: Qnzkid711
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2005 at 15:38

http://geocities.com/protoillyrian/serb.html - http://geocities.com/protoillyrian/serb.html

The topic he talks about is Caucasian Albanians and Balkan Albanian. Warning. Its damn long.




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"Europe and Asia are finally mine. Woe to Chritendom. She has lost her sword and shield."
Ottoman Sultan after hearing of the death of Skenderbeg.


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2005 at 23:17
neritan

Thanks for the corrections, since my knowledge of Albanian is next to nothing. My source for the words posted was:
www.foreignword.com

Oguzoglu
Interesting theory, but unfortunately for the supporters of this, the following quote proves the use of this symbol at least 500yrs before the Seljuks even stepped foot in the area.
Any simple search for ancient coins will support what you'll see here.

"
147 PARTHIA, Orodes II. 57-38 BC. AR Drachm (3.62). Bare-headed bust left, royal wart on forehead, star before face, crescent with star below behind head/ Archer seated right on throne holding bow, anchor behind archer. Shore-261, Sellwood 48.9. VF, stained $50.00"

http://rosenblumcoins.com/34d/ancientgreek

It is interesting to note that your first flags never did have a cresent and star symbol on them.
Turkic White Hun Empire (420-552) had three five-pointed gold stars on a white background,
Turkic Khazar Empire (602-1016 ) had five five-pointed white stars on a blue background.
Turkish Gazneli Empire (962-1183) had a crescent and a peacock on a green background
The Great Seljuk Empire (1040-1157 AD) and the Seljuks of Rum (1077-1308)  had 'crescent and star" on them

So we see that only after the obvious Byzantine influence did you adopt the cresent as a symbol.
Remember the "Vardariots"???


HELL OF STEEL

1.At what year the name Greek(greeks)was used?

2.Where was the boundary of the known hellenic people according o ancient historygraphers as Plinius, Strabonus ecc.?


Year??????
Anyway, Greece from Graecus mythical son of Deukalion, so actually this name is linked to the beginning of the Hellinic people. Also, Aristotle (384BC) and Apollodoros (180BC), wrote about the "Graeci" that were the "Selle" or "Helle" a Hellinic tribe of Epiros.

According to Strabonus the north of Peloponesus was inabitated by barbarian tribes(didn't spoke a language comprensive of Strabonus)

I'd like to see where this can be found since in (BOOK 8) he clearly wrote:
It was not in the parts only on the other side of the isthmus, that the Ćolian nation was powerful, but those on this side also were formerly Ćolians. They were afterwards intermixed first with http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Ionians&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Ionians who came from http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Attica&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Attica , and got possession of Ćgialus, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0239%3Ahead%3D%2356#fn10" name="anch10 - 10 and secondly with http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Dorians&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Dorians , who under the conduct of the http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Heracleid%C3%A6&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Heracleidć founded http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Megara&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Megara and many of the cities in the http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Peloponnesus&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Peloponnesus . The Iones were soon expelled by the http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Ach%C3%A6i&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Achći , an Ćolian tribe; and there remained in http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Peloponnesus&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Peloponnesus the two nations, the Ćolic and the http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Doric&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Doric . Those nations then that had little intercourse with the http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Dorians&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Dorians used the Ćolian dialect. (This was the case with the http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Arcadians&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Arcadians and Eleians, the former of whom were altogether a mountain tribe, and did not share in the partition of the http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Peloponnesus&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Peloponnesus ; the latter were considered as dedicated to the service of the Olympian Jupiter, and lived for a long period in peace, principally because they were of Ćolian descent, and had admitted into their country the army of http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Oxylus&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Oxylus , about the time of the return of the http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Heracleid%C3%A6&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Heracleidć . http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0239%3Ahead%3D%2356#fn11" name="anch11 - 11 ) The rest used a kind of dialect composed of both, some of them having more, others less, of the http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=%C3%86olic%20dialect&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Ćolic dialect . Even at present the inhabitants of different cities use different dialects, but all seem to Dorize, or use the http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Doric%20dialect&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Doric dialect , on account of the ascendency of that nation.


eaglecap
Like my old college professor use to say, "The Greeks are the descendants of the ancient Greeks plus everyone else who came along."

There is a slight problem here, you are using a historian when you should be using a genetist.
Of course Hellines are not a "pure race", but the available data demonstrates that any potential introgression into the Hellinic gene pool were minor and did not replace the indigenous people.

some souces:
Rosser et al. (2000) European Y-Chromosome Diversity.
Semino et al. (2000) The genetic legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans
Di Giacomo et al. (2003) Clinal Patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects.



Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 01:18
Quote:
eaglecap
Like my old college professor use to say, "The Greeks are the descendants of the ancient Greeks plus everyone else who came along."

There is a slight problem here, you are using a historian when you should be using a genetist.
Of course Hellines are not a "pure race", but the available data demonstrates that any potential introgression into the Hellinic gene pool were minor and did not replace the indigenous people.

There doesn't seem to be an appreciable difference between what the two of you are saying. 



Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 01:47

(This is about a message posted earlier)

Why would Arabs convert the Caucasian Albanians to Islam, and ''skip'' some of the surrounding nations under their rule, such as the Armenians or the Georgians?

The Caucasian Albanians used an alphabet almost identical to the Armenian alphabet. What alphabet did the Balkan Albanians use? 



Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 11:54
Why would Arabs convert the Caucasian Albanians to Islam, and ''skip'' some of the surrounding nations under their rule, such as the Armenians or the Georgians?

The Caucasian Albanians used an alphabet almost identical to the Armenian alphabet. What alphabet did the Balkan Albanians use?


Good question but unfortunately don't have a good enough explanation for it.

On your second question, true the "later" Caucasus Albanian writing was similar if not identical as you say, which is the main reason that many scholars believe that the Caucasus Albanians never had a written language of their own.
Since all Albanian texts were written in Armanian.

Some scholars believe that the "original" Albanian texts "disappeared" because the Armenian clerics were burning them. (Albanian church was "Diophysite" while the Armenian was "Monophysite") When we add this to the Arab invasions, we understand the diappearance.
If we add the fact that the both the Albanian people and "script" totally disappear from this area between 9th-10th cent. approx. the time that they appear in Sicily as mentioned before, it does become clearer.

As for the Balkan Albanians,  their first written script found is that of Gjon Buzuku titled "Meshari" in 1555. So it is actually difficult to "trace" how the language developed.

It is very  interesting to note that the Balkan Albanian script before they adopted the one they use today in 1908, was a mixture of Hellinic, Latin and Arab script. Hellinic and Latin can easily be explained in both versions, either in the decendants of the Illyrians or in the Caucasus version. And I could understand, but why would they adopt the Arab script???
Ottoman rule could be the explanation if we had seen a similar influence in other occupied by the Ottomans areas, which we do not.




Posted By: Qnzkid711
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 13:25

 he Albanian alphabet is based on the Latin alphabet, with the addition of the letters ë, ç, and nine digraphs to account for certain sounds in pronunciations. Until 1908, when the Latin alphabet was introduced in Albanian, the Greek alphabet, Cyrillic alphabet, and the Ottoman Turkish version of the Arabic alphabet had been used to write Albanian.

 

From Wikipedia.



-------------
"Europe and Asia are finally mine. Woe to Chritendom. She has lost her sword and shield."
Ottoman Sultan after hearing of the death of Skenderbeg.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 15:27

Originally posted by Kuu-ukko

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Also today, none of the Arabic countries use these symbols in their flags. The ones which are using these are influenced with Turkish beliefs...


Tunisia, Algeria and Mauritania have the exact same symbols in their flags, but they aren't influenced by Turkish beliefs, they have nothing to do with Turkey. The only thing common with for example Algeria and Turkey is Islam. What we can conclude from this............


neritan aren't Albanian and Illyrian recognized with some other language as originating from a same proto-language? PS. Nice examples about the similarities

These countries cannot be counted as real Arabic countries since they are mostlu Berberi and other North Africans (Hami). But this is possible that they are heavily influenced with Turkish culture since they were under Turkish rule for hundreds of years. And Mauritania was also influenced...



-------------


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 15:41

"Oguzoglu
Interesting theory, but unfortunately for the supporters of this, the following quote proves the use of this symbol at least 500yrs before the Seljuks even stepped foot in the area.
Any simple search for ancient coins will support what you'll see here.

"
147 PARTHIA, Orodes II. 57-38 BC. AR Drachm (3.62). Bare-headed bust left, royal wart on forehead, star before face, crescent with star below behind head/ Archer seated right on throne holding bow, anchor behind archer. Shore-261, Sellwood 48.9. VF, stained $50.00"

http://rosenblumcoins.com/34d/ancientgreek

It is interesting to note that your first flags never did have a cresent and star symbol on them.
Turkic White Hun Empire (420-552) had three five-pointed gold stars on a white background,
Turkic Khazar Empire (602-1016 ) had five five-pointed white stars on a blue background.
Turkish Gazneli Empire (962-1183) had a crescent and a peacock on a green background
The Great Seljuk Empire (1040-1157 AD) and the Seljuks of Rum (1077-1308)  had 'crescent and star" on them

So we see that only after the obvious Byzantine influence did you adopt the cresent as a symbol.
Remember the "Vardariots"???"

But as you see, all the Turkish empires had their flag according to their countries position (East-blue, west-red etc.), according to their beliefs (Göktanrý, Shamanism, Maniheizm, Islam etc.), and according to their political structures. But the only common thing was always Turkic beliefs and symbols. For example, the Huns could have five pointed stars to show some beliefs, the Göktürks could have a wolf head to show their origins and religion on their flag, the Seljuks could have a two headed eagle and an arch on it as a symbol of Oguz rule of both the east and the west. The Ottomans could be gifted with a crescent and a star by the Seljuk sultan symbolising the western Turkish lands (red color- meaning west, the background) and their authority over everything, moon (crescent, night) and eight pointed star (sun,day)... These were also old symbols of middle east, old Turkic symbols, the symbols of Istanbul and Islam. So adapting all of them according to Ottoman Empire and forming the most suitable flag was the most ideal decision to take...



-------------


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 18:47
Qnzkid711

Why such a selective copy and paste?????
You found the source, good for you. The least you could do is paste exactly what it says, instead of only posting what suits you:

  He formed a 33-letter alphabet from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin" title="Latin - Latin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet" title="Latin alphabet - alphabets and called it Evetor. This alphabet was mainly used in southern Albania. Other variants of the time included a Catholic alphabet used by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians" title="Albanians - Arbëreshë ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy" title="Italy - Italo -Albanians), an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_alphabet" title="Arabic alphabet - Arabic one favored by the pashas, and the Istanbul one created by http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sami_Frash%EBri&action=edit" class="new" title="Sami Frashëri - Sami Frashëri based on the Latin script with certain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet" title="Greek alphabet - Greek characters. The latter became widely used as it was also adopted by the Istanbul Society for the Printing of Albanian Writings, which in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1879" title="1879 - 1879 printed Alfabetare, the first http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abecedarium" title="Abecedarium - abecedarium . Another variant similar to the Istanbul one, Bashkimi, was developed by the Albanian literary society Bashkimi (The Union) in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shkod%EBr" title="Shkodër - Shkodër with the help of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic" title="Catholic - Catholic clergy and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franciscan" title="Franciscan - Franciscans that aimed to be simpler. Yet another version, Agimi, was developed by another literary society called http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Agimi&action=edit" class="new" title="Agimi - Agimi (The Dawn) and spearheaded by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ndre_Mjeda" title="Ndre Mjeda - Ndre Mjeda in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1901" title="1901 - 1901 .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_alphabet


If you read it again you'll see the site you decided to quote, clearly notes the difference between the Arab and the Turkish "alphabets".




Posted By: Qnzkid711
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 19:12

Also may I add that Albanian is one of the only languages where Illyrian names and titles can be translated Illyrian(ilir=free, Illyrian= "The free" though now its written vice versa kind of like IanIllyr). Look them up.  Not to mention the names of tribes and such. Names that date BEFORE Enver Hoxha.  Yet, how can that be if Illyrians had no written language were eaten up by the serbs? Not to mention the tons of different sources that state Albanians are Illyrians.


-------------
"Europe and Asia are finally mine. Woe to Chritendom. She has lost her sword and shield."
Ottoman Sultan after hearing of the death of Skenderbeg.


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 21:04
Yeah, I've seen how you choose to post info.
So you see a connection???
Then why would:

Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan languages. Moscow, 1978.
Katicic, R. Ancient Languages of the Balkans. The Hague, 1976.
Fasmer, M. The Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language. Moscow, 1986.

All consider Albanian totally alien to the Messapic inscriptions found?

There might be a few examples of some names having some meaning in Albanian but the ammount of "names" that have absolutely no connection far too many, for this to prove anything.

Let's continue with what some linguists have concluded.

1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shkφder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.

2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
(this is from another theory that proves your origin to be somewhere in Carpathia)

3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.

4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.

5. The Albanians are not mentioned before the 10th century a.d., although place names and personal names from the whole region of Albania are attested in numerous documents from the 4th century onwards.

6. The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Rumanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Rumanian, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftλ
(same theory mentioned)


Sources :
H. Kronasser, ‘Zum Stand der Illyristik’ (Linguistique Balkanique, IV, 1962, pp. 5 ff.); R. Katicic', 'Namengebiete im rφmischen Dalmatian" (Die Sprache, X, Vienna, 1964, pp. 23 ff.); id., Illyrii proprie dicti (iva Antika, Skopje, XIII/XIV, 1964, pp. 87 ff.); id., 'Suvremena istraivanja o jeziku starosjedilaca ilirskih provincija' (Nauno društvo SR Bosne i Hercegovine, IV, Sarajevo, 1964, pp. 9 ff.); G. Alfφldy, 'Die Namengebung der Urbevφlkerung der rφmischen Provinz Dalmatia’ (Beitrδge zur Namenforschung, 15, Heidelberg, 1964, pp. 54 ff).

Since you did mention "names" or as you said titles :
In Ptolemy's Geography:
Book II, Chapter 15
Location of Illyria or Liburnia, and of Dalmatia
(Fifth Map of Europe)

He gives us a list of place-names:
Alvona, Flanona, Tarsatica, mouth of the Oeneus river, Volcera ,Senia, Lopsica ,
,mouth of the Tedanius river,Ortopla ,,Vegia ,,Argyruntum ,Corinium ,Aenona ,Iader colonia ,mouth of the Titus river ,Scardona Maritime shore of Dalmatia,Sicum ,Salonae colonia ,Epetium ,Pituntium ,Onaeum ,mouth of the Naronus river ,Epidaurus ,Rhisium ,Acruvium ,Rhizonicus bay,Butua ,Ulcinium ,mouth of the Drilo river ,Lissus ,The river Drilo ,Scardus mountains ,Upper Moesia,the Drinus river, the Save river,Tediastum ,Aruccia, Ardotium ,Stulpi ,Curcum ,Ausancali ,Varvaria ,Salvia ,Adra ,Arauzona ,Assesia ,Burnum ,Sidrona ,Blanona ,Ouporum ,Nedinum Andecrium ,Aleta ,Herona ,Delminium ,Aequum colonia ,Saloniana ,Narona colonia ,Enderum ,Chinna ,Doclea ,Rhizana ,Scodra ,Thermidava ,Siparuntum ,Epicaria ,Iminacium , Crepsa, Apsorrus, Fulfinium, Curicum

Out of all these place-names please tell me how many have a meaning in your language?

It is also very interesting to note that we can even find some connection between Slavic and Illyrian, even though it is a well known fact that they only arrived in this area during the 7th cent.

Illirian- Serbian- Albanian- English
lugo- lug- pelg - pool
metu- medju- ndermjet- between
bra- brat- velle- brother
vesa- veselo- qelluar- good spirits
barba- bara- pellg- puddle
trtigo- trgovac- dyqanhxi- merchant (Lithuanian=tirgus)maybe they have some Illyrian blood also

Here is an interesting article you might want to read.
http://members.aol.com/Plaku/illyrian.htm







Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 06:22
Bloody hell Phallanx! What do you do for a living? Don't tell me that you study all this just for hobby!

-------------
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 06:32
Don't see what I do for a living has to do with it, but just to answer, I'm what you'd call a "gentleman at large", and yes you could call this a hobby. Why find it so suprising?


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 07:04

No offence intented!

I was just amazed and delighted by the detail in your post (admired is a more appropriate word).



-------------
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 12:32
Originally posted by Phallanx


All consider Albanian totally alien to the Messapic inscriptions found?


exist one version decipher from albanian of the Vasta Messapic inscriptions

Messapic

klohi zis thotoria marta pido vastei basta
veinan aran in daranthoa vasti staboos
xohedonas ....

albanian
 
Kjo zonje e quajtur Emarta prej Vasta bashkon
arat e veta me ato te teresise se Vastes.Shterpesia( shkretesia)
e koheve te fundit ....

english

This lady named Marta fron Vasta associate
her fields with ......

Originally posted by Phallanx


1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shkφder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of
Latin origin in this region.


the illyrian toponyms have been directly inherited in albanian and  these name do corespond to the fonetic laws of albanian:
Ragusium: Rush rrush (Ragusa, dubrovnik);Brindia Brundisium: bri brini (Brindisi); Bigeste: bige (mountain with 2 yeast); Dardania: dardhe (pear); Delmatia: delme,dele (sheep); Lamatis: lamë lëme,Ulkinion: ulk,Ujk (wolf); Vendum: vend (place); Scodra: Shkoder; Astibus: Shtip; Naissus: Nish; Scupi: Shkup; Drivastum: Drish; Pirustae: Qafa e Prush*t; Lissus: Lesh; Dyrrachion: Durres; Isamnus: Ishem; Scampinus: Shkumbini; Aulon: Vlone Vlore; Thyamis: Çam;

Originally posted by Phallanx


2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.

ancient western balkan latin in albanian:
"augustus = gusht", "angustum = (i) ngushte," "cresta = kreshte", "colostrum = kulloshter", "castanum = geshtenje" "castellum = keshtjelle", "magister = mjeshter", "mustus = musht



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 12:43
Originally posted by Phallanx



Illirian- Serbian- Albanian- English
lugo- lug- pelg - pool
metu- medju- ndermjet- between
bra- brat- velle- brother
vesa- veselo- qelluar- good spirits
barba- bara- pellg- puddle
trtigo- trgovac- dyqanhxi- merchant (Lithuanian=tirgus)maybe they have some Illyrian blood also


illyrian barba -- albanian berrak (swampy soil) balta (soil)
tertigo  -- tregtar   (dyqanxhi is an turkish word)
bra(brother) -- vlla not velle(brother)
b-->v  'v' is many times changed into 'b' in ind.eu.langauges.
metu(between)--midis,mes,
lugo(pool)-- in albanian exist the word lag (the root of the word lugo[u-->a]) -- damp, lugine -- valley and lagune


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 08:05
Originally posted by Phallanx


6. The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Rumanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Rumanian, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftλ
(same theory mentioned)


exists around 200 words in common from proto rumanian (old tracia-dacia, not old eastern Balkan Latin) another words are:
buză “ang.lip” (cf. alb. buzë “idem”) ceafă “neck” (cf. alb. qafë “idem”), grumaz “larynx” (cf. alb. grumas, gurmaz ), guşă “craw, crop” (cf. alb. gushë “idem”), burtă “stomach”,(< i-e. *bher – ‘take',> *bhr-to,alb. barku), rânză “gizzard, ventricle” (cf.alb. rëndës “rennet; coagulant”, cf. taken from albanian of Italia rrënd “idem” ); famiglia: copil “boy” (cf. alb. kopil “idem”), moş "old"  (conf. alb.moshë “age”);  argea “kind of room” (cf. mac. άργελα, cim. άργιλλα “idem”, trac. αργιλος “topo” alb. ragal “hovel”), mătură “broom” (cf. alb. netull, -a, netëll “idem”; from the term of plant (sorgum vulgare, sorgum saccharatum),saggina), vatră “fireplace” (cf. alb. gheg. vatër, tosc. vatër, vatrë “idem”); grapă “harrow” (cf. alb.*grapë, un plurale di *grap, grep, “cane”, gresie “sandstone” (cf. alb. gëressë, gresë “grater”), baci “shepherd” (cf. alb. baç-i “shepherd” e bac-i, bacë –a “grand brother”), ţarc “closed” (conf. alb. thark, cark “trap”), mazăre “pea” (cf. alb. modhull, modhultë  “idem” ) ......

in italian document (http://www.geocities.com/serban_marin/fratila2002.html)


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 22:03
Here is what the site you quote, After using an online translator I found nothing that mentions any connection between Albanian and Illyrian.


"From the traco-daciche native populations one has been conserved a series of voices whose varied number from investigator to investigator. These words refer to agriculture and to pastorizia the main activity of the Thracians and of they give to us and, later, of the romanizzate populations of the province Danube of the roman empire of east.
Other terms refer to the shapes of the relief, to the flora and the fauna of the regions of hills and montuose in which the romanizzata population it lived in the time of the great invasions. Many of these words have entered to make part of the base dictionary, having one high frequency and one wide circulation, and being characterized from large-capacity to form derives to you or to enter like members in idiomatiche expressions. Some of the elements of native origin have of the correspondents in Albanian, others are specific only of the romeno. The voices inherited from the sostrato one refer to parts of the human
body:"



Messapic

klohi zis thotoria marta pido vastei basta
veinan aran in daranthoa vasti staboos
xohedonas ....

albanian
 
Kjo zonje e quajtur Emarta prej Vasta bashkon
arat e veta me ato te teresise se Vastes.Shterpesia( shkretesia)
e koheve te fundit ....

english

This lady named Marta fron Vasta associate
her fields with ......


Now this is very interesting.
I could post a long list of linguists, that all support the FACT that this "text" is actually UNDECIPHERED,yet you managed to do the impossible, connect it to Albanian and translate it to english

(here are the first two sites I found after a simple search)
http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/balk/messapic.html
http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/tree/balk/messapic.html

[QUOTE] the illyrian toponyms have been directly inherited in albanian and  these name do corespond to the fonetic laws of albanian/QUOTE]


"Delmatia: delme,dele (sheep)"

Dalmatia or Delmatia, which is of Arnautic origin, is "land of shepherds" (delminium — pasture for sheep).
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04606b.htm
As you see this isn't even an Illyrian word.

"Ragusium: Rush rrush (Ragusa, dubrovnik)"

The origin of the name Dubrovnik comes from the Slav word for oak - "dub".
If we were to look up the "history" of this area we'd find that the present-day town which is situated in this area is named "Cavtat" (nothing Illyrian here)
Ragusium is of Latin origin
(in Italian: Ragusa)

Dyrrachion: Durres;
Dyrrachion is a place name of Hellinic origin, not Illyrian.

Anyway, to stop this useless argument, since predominant scholars haven't actually came to a conclussion yet, I find it hard that we will.

Here is the whole theory and the arguments as recorded by Eric P. Hamp, Chicago University.

http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/balkan/ehamp.html




 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 14:35
Now this is very interesting.
I could post a long list of linguists, that all support the FACT that this "text" is actually UNDECIPHERED,yet you managed to do the impossible, connect it to Albanian and translate it to english

(here are the first two sites I found after a simple search)
http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/balk/messapic.html
http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/tree/balk/messapic.ht ml


I say: exist one version decipher from albanian of the Vasta Messapic inscriptions
Not this is establish!!!

in the site http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/balk/albanian.html I foud:
"Albanian is a descendant of ancient Paleo-Balkan languages, Illyrian, Messapic and Thracian. Historically two main dialectal groups exist: Gheg and Tosk, both understand each other."


  Dalmatia or Delmatia, which is of Arnautic origin, is "land of shepherds" (delminium — pasture for sheep).
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04606b.htm
As you see this isn't even an Illyrian word.


Arnautic is a forme disdain for say albanian????
In turkish arnaut = albanian

The origin of the name Dubrovnik comes from the Slav word for oak - "dub".
If we were to look up the "history" of this area we'd find that the present-day town which is situated in this area is named "Cavtat" (nothing Illyrian here)
Ragusium is of Latin origin
(in Italian: Ragusa)

the origin latin of Ragusium is to discute. But from an toponim ragusium in the territory inhabitet from from illyrian exist an direct inherited in albanian. The name used in albania for Dubrovnik until 1600 is Rush.


Dyrrachion: Durres;
Dyrrachion is a place name of Hellinic origin, not Illyrian.

The same discussion



Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 19:51
Arnautic is a forme disdain for say albanian????
In turkish arnaut = albanian


I find it quite interesting how you(general) selectively use a number of "terms" to identify yourselves. From the Arber to the Arnauts all suposedly describe a race of people that aren't actually more than a couple of million, always depending on which time of history we discuss.
Anyway, this actually proves my point, even though I neglected to mention it in my earlier post, arnaut does NOT mean Albanian in Turkish but it is the name the Turks use to describe you and means "those that have not returned" from an Arabic loan word. So how could you be the Arnauts, if you are not the same ones from Caucasus as the Turkish word describes?!?!?!
You must make up your minds
(I'm sure that some of the Turks in here will support that this meaning is correct)

Which brings us back to the Caucasus origin, something that was never proven to be totally wrong, but thanks to your assistance may actually be your true origin.
As mentioned before, the Arabs enslaved you and "transfered" you from the Caucasus, where Maniakos found you and brought you to your current position from Sicily.
This event is recorded by M. Ataliotos in his chronicle: "Historia, Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae. Impensis ed. Neberi, Bonnae"

So the only connection you may actually have to the Illyrians is that you assimilated them. More proof of this is the very name your country has that is much more than a coincidense.
The Avar (from Caucasus) after invading and conquering part of the Balkans gave the names to these areas. So we find
that in the Lesghian-Avar language, Serbia is the Balkan Crna Gora and has the exact same toponym of the land they left behind also called Crna Gora, now part of Daghestan.
In the Lesghian-Avar language: Srbi means "people." Also, in the Lesghian-Avar language: Albania is the land they called their homeland, neighbouring Armenia, known as Ancient Caucasian Albania.


Did you take a look at the link provided?


Posted By: Tlaloc
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 22:40
Recent genetic analysis shows that the Greeks are remarkably homogenous, so chances are so significant amount of Albanians was absorbed into the Greek population. I'll see if I can find the link.

But, I do know that in some cases the few remaining Albanian Orthodox near the Greek border are considered to be Greek by their neighbours.


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 08:45
Speaking of resent genetics,

The most comprehensive European-wide study of mtDNA is [1] in which 125 Greeks were sampled among thousands of Europeans. The Greeks and the Albanians appear in the "Mediterranean-East" category of the study. Greeks tested belonged overwhelmingly to the Caucasoid-specific haplogroups ("Seven Daughters of Eve" popularized by Bryan Sykes' book).

The "erratic" sequences include a Sub-Saharan African (L1a) sequence, which was derived from the Albanian part of the sample [2]. The other two sequences non-attributed to a European founder are members of haplogroups prevalent in Asia, M and D. Thus, the total percentage of erratics in the Greek sample was 1.6%. The Greeks, like most Europeans are fairly pure in terms of their maternal ancestry.

Reference:

Richards et al., Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. American Journal of Human Genetics, 67, 1251-1276. Online paper and supplementary data in http://www.stats.ox.ac.uk/%7Emacaulay/ - Vincent Macaulay's home page .Michele Belledi et al.,

Maternal and paternal lineages in Albania and the genetic structure of Indo-European populations, European Journal of Human Genetics, 8, 480 - 486 (01 Jul 2000)

Giuseppe Passarino et al., Different genetic components in the Norwegian population revealed by the analysis of mtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms, European Journal of Human Genetics10, 521 - 529 (23 Aug 2002)

Esteban J. Parra et al., Estimating African American Admixture Proportions by Use of Population-Specific Alleles, Am. J. Hum. Genet., 63:1839-1851, 1998

But, I do know that in some cases the few remaining Albanian Orthodox near the Greek border are considered to be Greek by their neighbours.


These poeple can not be considered Albanians since they are clearly of Hellinic "stock", there have been many attempts to try to connect theirselves (albanians) to Hellinic history since Hoxza.

Anyway, the people of N.Epirots speak Hellinic at least they want to, want Hellinic schooling, even their own political party, but DEMOCRACY hasn't obviously reached Albania. Since we find that, any connection to their "motherland" is forbidden. Politicians houses bombed, terror during votes, shcools teared down. The same tactic Hoxza enforced.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 15:21
Originally posted by Kuu-ukko

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Also today, none of the Arabic countries use these symbols in their flags. The ones which are using these are influenced with Turkish beliefs...


Tunisia, Algeria and Mauritania have the exact same symbols in their flags, but they aren't influenced by Turkish beliefs, they have nothing to do with Turkey. The only thing common with for example Algeria and Turkey is Islam. What we can conclude from this............


neritan aren't Albanian and Illyrian recognized with some other language as originating from a same proto-language? PS. Nice examples about the similarities


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 15:53

 

The modern Turkish Republic founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was an example for some countries such as Tunisia, Algeria in their stuggle for liberation. That's why they chose the symbol of crescent & star; not because it represents Islam. If that was true, then how come the countries ruled by Islamic law such as Saudi Arabia or Iran do not have those symbols ? Let's put facts in to context. Turkey is pre-dominantly Muslim but it's secular. we are not an Islamic country .

 



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Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 19:02
Tunisia, Algeria in their stuggle for liberation.


Who exactly was turkey liberated from???????


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 20:43
Turkey lead an independence war against  England,France, Italy and Greece which is a seperate issue.  As you may know, Algeria and Tunisia againt the French . My emphasis was on the issue of the symbol of the flags. (The crescent&star)

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Mar-2005 at 14:04
Originally posted by Phallanx


I find it quite interesting how you(general) selectively use a number of "terms" to identify yourselves. From the Arber to the Arnauts all suposedly describe a race of people that aren't actually more than a couple of million, always depending on which time of history we discuss.
Anyway, this actually proves my point, even though I neglected to mention it in my earlier post, arnaut does NOT mean Albanian in Turkish but it is the name the Turks use to describe you and means "those that have not returned" from an Arabic loan word. So how could you be the Arnauts, if you are not the same ones from Caucasus as the Turkish word describes?!?!?!
You must make up your minds
(I'm sure that some of the Turks in here will support that this meaning is correct)
 


The albanian are more of a couple of milion. In turkish the root arn* significy patch, but I not thing which the name used from turkish prove the origin caucasian of albanian.
Exist one teory from the name Greece come  from  Albanian.
  GREQI -> gra(women)-qi
I not believe this teory.
Is the same logic.

Which brings us back to the Caucasus origin, something that was never proven to be totally wrong, but thanks to your assistance may actually be your true origin. As mentioned before, the Arabs enslaved you and "transfered" you from the Caucasus, where Maniakos found you and brought you to your current position from Sicily. This event is recorded by M. Ataliotos in his chronicle: "Historia, Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae. Impensis ed. Neberi, Bonnae"

This is interesant. The arab have transfered the albanian from caucasus in sicily and  later  Maniakos  we  brought  in the  current  position.
my compliment for your imagination. Is courageous to say this.


So the only connection you may actually have to the Illyrians is that you assimilated them. More proof of this is the very name your country has that is much more than a coincidense.
The Avar (from Caucasus) after invading and conquering part of the Balkans gave the names to these areas. So we find that in the Lesghian-Avar language, Serbia is the Balkan Crna Gora and has the exact same toponym of the land they left behind also called Crna Gora, now part of Daghestan.
In the Lesghian-Avar language: Srbi means "people." Also, in the Lesghian-Avar language: Albania is the land they called their homeland, neighbouring Armenia, known as Ancient Caucasian Albania.


The avar come from mongolia and is documented which they are fermed in the Carpate.
You must make an decision. Here are 2 teory which exclude each other. and you have to choose one as true.



Some explanations:
Albanian is an IE language and the unique unique IE
language in Caucasus is Armenian. Albanian is different from armenian

The name albania is very common and comes from IE = white.
Scots arent related whith caucasus, just because Scotland called "Albania" by the scotsmen


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 14:54
GREQI -> gra(women)-qi
I not believe this teory.
Is the same logic.


It's actually nice to hear you don't believe this delusional "theory". There is more than enough proof to support the words origin and the fact that it was used at least since 4th cent.BC, way before the "Albanians" were ever known.

Anyway, as the name may not prove anything by itself, there is a list of things that actually support the theory when added to this fact. (do read my first posts again)

This is interesant. The arab have transfered the albanian from caucasus in sicily and  later  Maniakos  we  brought  in the  current  position.
my compliment for your imagination. Is courageous to say this.


Courageous?!?!?!! What on earth does courage have to do, with historic facts?????

Try looking up the following FACTS and then find the courage to reject them.

With the coming of the Arabs, they converted the Old Albanians in the 8th century to Islam. But meanwhile, at the time, the Arabs were waging campaigns in Sicily, dividing it into two parts, (hence there was the Kingdom of the two Sicilies). In order to populate their part of Sicily, the Arabs brought with them Old Albanians from the Caucasus. To this day, their descendants live in Sicily.

Then in 1042, the Byzantine Empire attacked the young Serbian state after having defeated the Arabs in Sicily and having brought the Sicilian Albanians under their command and Christianizing them. The leader of the Byzantines who led the Albanians was named Georgios Maniakos. Maniakos brought Albanian mercenaries from Sicily to fight the Serbs and they settled in two waves in modern day Albania, first the mercenaries came, and then came the women and children. After the defeat of Maniakos, the Byzantines would not let the Albanians return, thus the Albanians requested that the Serbs let them stay on the land. They settled under mount Raban and the city of Berat and from this, the Serbs called them "Rabanasi" or "Arbanasi". The city of Berat was known as Belgrad also, before the Albanians came to settle there. They mostly tended sheep and cattle and lent themselves out to Serbian nobles as brave soldiers.

Hard evidence is the Turkish censuses carried out in 1455, they indicate that Albanian names are found in only 80 of the 600 villages listed in the area, and that they did not constitute territorial groups, ruling out any assumptions that zones evenly and continuously inhabited by Albanians existed at the time.

As for their language, to be honest I'm not any kind of linguist nor have I ever given this part of the
topic any serious reading so, I'm not actually prepared to argue about this but from the little I know.
Albanian is classified as an IE language only because no one has been able to classify it into any other group, and this is because no one has yet studied all the Caucasus languages.
Albanian might have IE sounding words, but its basic structure and syntax are more similar to Chechen and Udish than to any IE language. Many Albanian words do sound Indo- European, because Albanian has borrowed over 80% of its vocabulary, more than any other European language.

The Chechen language is similar to Albanian. They both have similar grammar and similar sounds such as SQ, PSHQ, which are not common in any IE languages, but are very common in Caucasus languages like Chechenian.

CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA
ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA


The conversion to Islam mentioned before can also be found in :

Moses Kalankaytuk «History of Aghvan» (Albania) book III, chap. V / also: «Sources on the history of Azerbaijan» (Azerbaycan tarixi uzre qaynaqlar) Baku 1989 p. 53 (in Azeri);
and
«Sources on the history of Azerbaijan» pp. 56-57 / also: Z. M. Baniatov «Review of the sources on the history of Azerbaijan. Arabic sources» (Obzor istochnikov po istorii Azerbaydzhana. Istochniki arabskiye) Baku 1964 p. 5 (in Russian)

They mention:
"By 705 the Arabs completed the invasion of Albania and the country became to be ruled by the Arab feudal lords- emirs. The Albanian church under the pressure from the Arabs and with the direct assistance of the Armenian church had to renounce Dyophisitism: Arabs couldn't tolerate the ideological unity of Albania and Byzantium."

"Yelia with support of the Arab troops arrived in Barda and ruthlessly destroyed those, who aspired to preserve their independence. He also destroyed all the literature in the Albanian language kept in the archives in Barda. He took a written obligation from certain episcopes, particularly from the clergy of the monasteries situated in Karabakh confirming, that they subordinate forever to the Armenian Monophysite catholicate. Yelia also ordered the execution of the last Albanian catholicos Nerses Bakur (686-704)."

"In VII-IX cc. due to the increase of the settlement of the Turkic tribes from the North, Albanians were left in the minority and gradually assimilated into one Turkophone ethnicity. As VIII-IX cc. Arab historian Abu Muhammad Abd-al-Malik ibn Hisham informs us of this fact in his work «Kitab-ul-tidjan fi muluk Himyar» («The book about the rulers of Himyar»)"


Now, I have a question. I've seen some of you argue that the place-name "Ulcinj" is translated with the Albanian word for "wolf" - "ujk", "ulk", explain why this would happen when as anyone with basic inteligence can see that, it's at least stupid to name a sea coast town after a forest beast.

And please in the future, try to reject my arguments based on facts and sources. Our personal opinions, aren't worth anything in a historic discussion/argument.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 07:58

With the coming of the Arabs, they converted the Old Albanians in the 8th century to Islam. But meanwhile, at the time, the Arabs were waging campaigns in Sicily, dividing it into two parts, (hence there was the Kingdom of the two Sicilies). In order to populate their part of Sicily, the Arabs brought with them Old Albanians from the Caucasus. To this day, their descendants live in Sicily.
Then in 1042, the Byzantine Empire attacked the young Serbian state after having defeated the Arabs in Sicily and having brought the Sicilian Albanians under their command and Christianizing them. The leader of the Byzantines who led the Albanians was named Georgios Maniakos. Maniakos brought Albanian mercenaries from Sicily to fight the Serbs and they settled in two waves in modern day Albania, first the mercenaries came, and then came the women and children. After the defeat of Maniakos, the Byzantines would not let the Albanians return, thus the Albanians requested that the Serbs let them stay on the land. They settled under mount Raban and the city of Berat and from this, the Serbs called them "Rabanasi" or "Arbanasi". The city of Berat was known as Belgrad also, before the Albanians came to settle there. They mostly tended sheep and cattle and lent themselves out to Serbian nobles as brave soldiers.


I have study the story of Sicily in the periode about 1030-1050. I not have encounted nobody about albanian.
http://www.cronologia.it/ (italian)

The emmigration of Albanian, which live in Italy, is comming later of this date.

the first emmigration 1339-1409
the second emmigration 1416-1442
the third emmigration 1461 - 1470
the fourth emmigration 1470 - 1478
the fifth emmigration  1533 -1534
.........
........

http://www.guzzardi.it/arberia/(italian)


Hard evidence is the Turkish censuses carried out in 1455, they indicate that Albanian names are found in only 80 of the 600 villages listed in the area, and that they did not constitute territorial groups, ruling out any assumptions that zones evenly and continuously inhabited by Albanians existed at the time.


In this period the turks not have occupied Albania. The occupation of Albania is termined in 1478.


Albanian might have IE sounding words, but its basic structure and syntax are more similar to Chechen and Udish than to any IE language. Many Albanian words do sound Indo- European, because Albanian has borrowed over 80% of its vocabulary, more than any other European language.


Some samples of albanian words which have origin from IE



Indo-European      Albanian      English     
   
   
*oi-no-     një         one        
*sem-         (një)?         some        
*dwo-         dy         two        
*trei-         tre         three        
*kwetwor-     katër         four    
*penkwe     pesë         five    
*s(w)ek^s     gjashtë     six    
*septm.     shtatë         seven    
*ok^tō(u)     tetë         eight    
*newn.         nënte         nine    
*dek^m.     dhjetë         ten    
   
*bher-         bie         to bear,
*deru-         dru         tree    
*dhg^em-     dhč         groom    
*dhwer-     derë         door    
*g^embh-     dhëmb         comb    
*g^no-         njeh         know    
*gwher-     zjarr         burn    
*kwo-         kush         who    
*māter-     motër         mother    
*mē-         muaj         month    
*mūs-         mi         mouse    
*nekwt-     natë         night    
*okw-         sy         eye    
*per-         i parë         first    
*tu-         ti         thou    
*wed-         ujë         water    
*wl.kwo-     ujk         wolf    



Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 09:30
The Greqi is the funniest thing i have ever heard 

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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 09:50
phallanx is using the same facts over and over again cuz he has nothing else to say



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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: Kenaney
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 14:52
Phallanx, stop with trying to make everybody Greek...

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OUT OF LIMIT


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 17:48
Originally posted by Kenaney

Phallanx, stop with trying to make everybody Greek...


Not really sure what you mean. Where exactly did I say that the Albanians are a Hellinic people???
You must have misunderstood since I'm talking about the theory T.J.Winnifrith and John Wilkes presented of a Caucasus origin, as seen in in his book "The Illyrians"

Originally posted by vulcan02

phallanx is using the same facts over and over again cuz he has nothing else to say

Did you ever considergiving me some answers before asking for more FACTS as you called them???

Fact=Something that is known to have happened or to be true or to exist

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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 15-May-2005 at 18:48
OK according to you we came from the Caucus WITH the Turks to Albania. This doesn't make sense as Albanians even before Scanderbeg fought against the Turks... its the stupidest theory i have ever heard. You are suggesting we simply decided one day to leave the Caucus(the Albanians over there have been living for many centuries until they were assimilated by the Seljuks, Armenians, Georgians, Arabs etc). I dont see it logical that a certain people that have been living in a region for so long simply decided that they would just move one day. And to make things even more complicated who would simply allow this mass exodus anyways... the Turks in Anatolia... or the Byzantines hahaha?  That book by John Wilkes by the way is endorsed by only a few academics, most believe that Albanians are the Illyrians decendants both in language and race.  I don't have to give you any other facts... i think Neritan did that by now a lot more than you expected. And if you say that Albanian is a language that originated from Caucus... then why dont we use the same alphabet as them...??

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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 15-May-2005 at 20:07
First I never said Turks, I said Arabs. So everything you said about fighting Ottomans is worthless, since you got it all wrong.
Caucasus Albania was destroyed and enslaved during the 7th cent. so no Ottomans either.

Neritan gave me nothing. Sorry.

I never denied that Albanian has IE words actually I did say that over 80% of the language is borrowed from other languages. So the list of IE words and their corresponding Albanian words proves nothing.

The comment about the 1455 census is correct simply because I neglected to mention that this census took place in Epirus.

Let's see what you NEVER gave answers to, yet you demand more proof:

1)You have presented not even one good explanation as to why Albanian has absolutely NO connection to the Messapic inscriptions found.
2)explain the common place-names posted before,
3)why historical sources that mention the Caucasian Albos being enslaved and converted to Islam and then transferred to Sicily where G.Maniakos found them, are wrong
4)prove any kind of population in this area before G.Maniakos/Maniakes brought you here,
5)according to the records left to us by Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus not to mention Arab and Armenian texts, there are NO Albanians as a people or nation found in the area, even though Constantine VII gives a detailed record of cities, towns, villages and people he NEVER ONCE mentioned your Albanian race or country.
6)The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shköder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.
7)The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
(this is from another theory that proves your origin to be somewhere in Carpathia)
8)The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.
9)Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords
10)The Albanians are not mentioned before the 10th century a.d., although place names and personal names from the whole region of Albania are attested in numerous documents from the 4th century onwards.
11)The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Rumanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Rumanian, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftë
(same theory mentioned)
12) the absolute LACK of any historic memory
13)If we look at: In Ptolemy's Geography:
Book II, Chapter 15  Location of Illyria or Liburnia, and of Dalmatia
Fifth Map of Europe
(the area you live in today)

He gives us a list of place-names:
Alvona
Flanona
Tarsatica
mouth of the Oeneus river
Volcera
Senia
Lopsica
mouth of the Tedanius river
Ortopla
Vegia
Argyruntum
Corinium
Aenona
Iader colonia
mouth of the Titus river
Scardona
Maritime shore of Dalmatia
Sicum
Salonae colonia
Epetium
Pituntium
Onaeum
mouth of the Naronus river
Epidaurus
Rhisium
Acruvium
Rhizonicus bay
Butua
Ulcinium
mouth of the Drilo river
Lissus
The river Drilo
Scardus mountains
Upper Moesia
the Drinus river
the Save river
Tediastum
Aruccia
Ardotium
Stulpi
Curcum
Ausancali
Varvaria
Salvia
Adra
Arauzona
Assesia
Burnum
Sidrona
Blanona
Ouporum
Nedinum
Andecrium
Aleta
Herona
Delminium
Aequum colonia
Saloniana
Narona colonia
Enderum
Chinna
Doclea
Rhizana
Scodra
Thermidava
Siparuntum
Epicaria
Iminacium
Crepsa
Apsorrus
Fulfinium
Curicum

Out of these place names 20-30-40 doesn't matter how many they are. How many corresponding place names can you give me ????



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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 01:16
blah blah blah read page 2 Neritan explained to you a lot of those words and the facts... go have a life my half Greek, half black, half turk, half whatever else Greek friend

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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 01:25

But, I do know that in some cases the few remaining Albanian Orthodox near the Greek border are considered to be Greek by their neighbours.


These poeple can not be considered Albanians since they are clearly of Hellinic "stock", there have been many attempts to try to connect theirselves (albanians) to Hellinic history since Hoxza.

Anyway, the people of N.Epirots speak Hellinic at least they want to, want Hellinic schooling, even their own political party, but DEMOCRACY hasn't obviously reached Albania. Since we find that, any connection to their "motherland" is forbidden. Politicians houses bombed, terror during votes, shcools teared down. The same tactic Hoxza enforced.

[/QUOTE]

I explained before that in the city that i lived(korca which is heavily orthodox) NEVER anyone that i know of has said that they are Greek.
 you consider them to be Greek all you want but... its what the people themselves like to be considered that counts.  A few Greeks who live in Saranda have their political party OMONIA or soemhitng like that(unfortunately) which should be abolished at once cuz they work against the Albanian nation. At least we recognize them though... the Greek government recognizes NO minorities!! Albanians, Bulgarians, Roma people, and whoever else that has the displeasure to be living in that country.


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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 01:30
Originally posted by Phallanx




Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords




Illyrians never liked the Greeks or Hellization therefore they never bothered to learn their language or add Greek words.... their raided their ships and ports tho


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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 02:19
Originally posted by vulcan02

go have a life my half Greek, half black, half turk, half whatever else Greek friend


In numerous recent studies, the mitochondrial DNA of Greeks was examined and was found to be predominantly Caucasoid with only infrequent presence of "erratic" sequences from non-Caucasoid sources. Mitochondrial DNA ("mtDNA") is inherited from one's mother and is thus a good way to establish the maternal ancestry of a population.

The most comprehensive European-wide study of mtDNA is [1] in which 125 Greeks were sampled among thousands of Europeans. The Greeks and the Albanians appear in the "Mediterranean-East" category of the study. Greeks tested belonged overwhelmingly to the Caucasoid-specific haplogroups ("Seven Daughters of Eve" popularized by Bryan Sykes' book).

The "erratic" sequences include a Sub-Saharan African (L1a) sequence, which was derived from the Albanian part of the sample [2]. The other two sequences non-attributed to a European founder are members of haplogroups prevalent in Asia, M and D. Thus, the total percentage of erratics in the Greek sample was 1.6%. The Greeks, like most Europeans are fairly pure in terms of their maternal ancestry.

It is sometimes argued that the Greeks absorbed large numbers of Negro slaves or immigrants. There is no evidence of such an event in Greek mtDNA. If it ever took place, it was so limited in scope that not a single sequence in a total of 125 could be found.

The number of non-European sequences in the rest of Europe is also small, while in the Near East it is about 5%, only slightly larger. One can easily verify that Sub-Saharan African admixture (L sequences) has been detected in Scandinavia (Sweden, Norway and Iceland - 0.6%), Southeastern Europe (Bulgaria/Romania - 0.5%), Central Mediterranean (Italy and Sardinia - 1.7%; mostly in Sardinia), the Mediterranean West (Spain and Portugal - 3.7%), North Central Europe (Poles, Czechs, Germans, Danes - 0.9%), North Western Europe (Britain, Ireland and France - 0.4%). In another recent study [3] on Norwegians, an L2 Sub-Saharan African sequence was found in the sample of 74 Norwegians (1.4% Sub-Saharan admixture). Finally [4] showed 0.5% to 1.2% introgression of Sub-Saharan African genes into the European American gene pool.

The main conclusion to be drawn from these studies, is that Caucasoids of European descent have negligible traces of non-Caucasoid maternal admixture. Sub-Saharan African traces of such ancestry are found at levels of about 1% in many populations. But not in Greeks(a).


References
1) Richards et al., Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. American Journal of Human Genetics, 67, 1251-1276. Online paper and supplementary data in Vincent Macaulay's home page.
2) Michele Belledi et al., Maternal and paternal lineages in Albania and the genetic structure of Indo-European populations, European Journal of Human Genetics, 8, 480 - 486 (01 Jul 2000)
3) Giuseppe Passarino et al., Different genetic components in the Norwegian population revealed by the analysis of mtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms, European Journal of Human Genetics10, 521 - 529 (23 Aug 2002)
4) Esteban J. Parra et al., Estimating African American Admixture Proportions by Use of Population-Specific Alleles, Am. J. Hum. Genet., 63:1839-1851, 1998

So dream on and on and on and on and on and on and on and

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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 02:23
Originally posted by vulkan02


Illyrians never liked the Greeks or Hellization therefore they never bothered to learn their language or add Greek words.... their raided their ships and ports tho


Are you refering to the Hellines that colonized Illyria since the 6th BC???



Proof of the colonization of Illyria by Hellines is this "Illyrian helmet" clearly of Pelloponessean style.

But anyway, those were Illyrians you're an Albanian, what connection do you have to them???? NONE


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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Molossos
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 02:59

Originally posted by Phallanx

But anyway, those were Illyrians you're an Albanian, what connection do you have to them???? NONE

I believe that was a good point Phallanx. I base my comment on the strong evidence that Illyrian is not the ancestor of modern Albanian, since the former extinct language belongs to the Centum group of Indo-European, while Albanian is part of the Satem group, like ancient Thracian. However, I can't explain how Thracian populations could migrate to the western Balkans.

Maybe Gheg Albanians of Serbia and Skopje are somehow related to the Thracoid ancient populations of the central Balkans. However, there can be found similarities between standard or dialects of Albanian and Illyrian lingual material.



Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 04:40

Originally posted by vulkan02

blah blah blah read page 2 Neritan explained to you a lot of those words and the facts... go have a life my half Greek, half black, half turk, half whatever else Greek friend

Warning!

Please do not insult forum members with racist or fascist remarks. Read the forum rules and adhere to them:  http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1338&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1338& ;PN=1



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 13:22

If you are a Greek but might have Turkish genes and you dont like beign called a turk then im sorry you took it as an insult. But the thing is that since you took it as an insult then you must be racist toward the Turks. Just because i claim your half turkish that shouldn't insult you ... if your not racist yourself that is.



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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 13:26

Albania = 75% Dinaric ( Illyrian ), 10% West Mediterranean (m.c. on the coast), 10% Alpine ( Epirus, Dorians), 5% Noric = 80% Dinarik / 10% UP / 10% Med..

same source Phallanx used to disprove Turkish population in Anatolia.. gotcha



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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 13:44

Originally posted by Phallanx

Originally posted by vulkan02


Illyrians never liked the Greeks or Hellization therefore they never bothered to learn their language or add Greek words.... their raided their ships and ports tho


Are you refering to the Hellines that colonized Illyria since the 6th BC???



Proof of the colonization of Illyria by Hellines is this "Illyrian helmet" clearly of Pelloponessean style.

But anyway, those were Illyrians you're an Albanian, what connection do you have to them???? NONE

yeah and the they were all kicked out by king Agron and his predecesors

 



-------------
The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 14:01
Originally posted by vulkan02

If you are a Greek but might have Turkish genes and you dont like beign called a turk then im sorry you took it as an insult. But the thing is that since you took it as an insult then you must be racist toward the Turks. Just because i claim your half turkish that shouldn't insult you ... if your not racist yourself that is.

So according to your unique logic if i tell you that as an Albanian you must have eg. Serbian blood and you react you should be a racist towards Serbs.  Man, what kind of drugs are you on???



Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 14:04
if i have Serbain blood and my great great great great grandma or grandpa was a serb i have no problem with it. The point is that what i choose to be today makes me what i really am. Therefore no im not racist toward the Serbs because i don't react in the first place.  

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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao


Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 21:44

Ancient Illyrians are said to be the ancestors of modern Albanians. But they were mixed up so much with Turks (mainly) and Greeks during Byzantine and Ottoman Empires that they have change a lot. That's why some people call them Turk-Albanians because they had close relationships and mix with Turks.



Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 21:50
(please delete) I tried to edit it, but freaking lost it.

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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 18:45
While I find  myself unable to yield any accurate opinion on the question of the origin of Albanians, I find quite shocking the Balcanic ultranationalims that some display. It is obvious that populations don't change throughtly due to migrations but only partly. Natives are often assimilated either by grade or by force and, If Illyrians dwelled in Albania, Croatia, Bosnia and Montengro at some time in history it is more than reasonable to think that they didn't just become extinct but that they survived through assimliation to Romans and later other peoples... Equally those peoples that lived in the area before Illyrians arrived around 1300 BCE also had become assimilated by Illyrians, as the Paleolithic natives also were assimilated by the carriers of the Cardium-Printed pottery that were maybe originary from Lebanon. Populations have moved in history but not that much. Most people have always remained in their places and it is logical to think that Albanians and other peoples of the region descend at least partly from Illyrians as they were known in ancient historical times.

This is the same as assuming that many French descend largely from Gauls, despite their language being of Italian origin and their name coming from a German league of tribes; or that accepting that most English people could eventually track their ancestors to ancient Britons rather than to Anglos, Saxons and Jutes; or that most Moroccans descend from Berbers rather than from Arabs, etc.

Fortunatley people tends to accept each day more that their ancestry is not a linnear history but a complex mixture and that nations are not the same as "races", as one speaks of ethnicity (language and culture) and the other of genetics and these often are largely unrelated.


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 22:55
I just wanted to add that this idea that we came from the Caucasus is one of the most ridiculous and hilarious theories EVER presented on the origins of the Albanians. It is a theory that has ONLY been accepted by Serb and Hellenic nationalists


You are allowed to your own opinion but naming me a nationalist since I was the one to present the theory in this site (not that I reject the 'title') isn't the correct attempt to support your arguments.

1) - Our ethnonym derives from a Latin translation of an old Illyrian tribe's name; Parthini. Parth was the Illyrian version of the modern Albanian word for white, bardh. The Romans translated it into white in Latin, which is alba, hence Albania from the Parthini.


Who is the linguist that supports this name origin, since every attempt to connect the Albanians to Illyrians I've seen, claims that the name derives from the Alban tribe.
Interestingly enough, you claim the name's origin to be from the ParthHni, did you research inform you that they were a tribe that lived next to Epidamus, closely related to the Hellinic colonists and allies of the Roman's against the Illyrian attacks of 229BC?
Guess not otherwise you would have been more carefull.

2) - Most of our toponyms that date from antiquity have evolved in accordance to our phonetical laws, which wouldn't be possible if we adopted them from the Slavs who supposedly settled here before us, which is false.

3) - The little territory of Albania has kept 300 of its old toponyms, which is a whole lot. In areas however of the Slavs i.e. Central & Northern Serbia, BiH & the Dalmatian hinterland, not to mention Slavonija & Slovenia etc, the old place-names were entirely swept aside! If we came after the Slavs, wouldn't we had done the same as they did i.e. eliminate all old place-names and give them new ones? Instead of preserving as much as 300!!!


First I never did argue that you adopted the names from Slavs.
Then again, I have posted a list of the place names Ptolemy recorded, yet not one of you that claim this 'theory' to be rediculous and me a bloody nationalist, showed the connection in language nor proved that they  continue to be used.

So, here we go again:

Ptolemy:
Book II, Chapter 15
Location of Illyria or Liburnia, and of Dalmatia
(Fifth Map of Europe)

Illyria is terminated on the north by both Pannonias along those borders which we have referred to above; on the west by Istria along that line,

one terminus of which is toward Upper Pannonia in 36*30 45°10
the other on the Adriatic in 36*30 44°50


It is bounded on the east by Upper Moesia along the line which leads from the indicated entrance of the Save into the Danube as far as the Scardus mountains,

the terminal position of which is in 47*00 41°40


It is bounded on the south by the part of Macedonia along that line which runs from the indicated terminus to the Adriatic bay,

the other terminus of which is in 45*00 41°00


and then by the coast of the Adriatic to the indicated terminus near Istria. The several parts of its boundaries are in the following order: after Istria then the land of Italia. In Illyria:

The maritime shore of Liburnia
Alvona 36*50 45°00
Flanona 37*00 44°50
Tarsatica 37*40 44°45
mouth of the Oeneus river 38*00 44°45
Volcera 38*30 44°45
Senia 39*00 44°40
Lopsica 39*15 44°40
mouth of the Tedanius river 39*20 44°30
Ortopla 40*00 44°30
Vegia 40*20 44°30
Argyruntum 40*45 44°10
Corinium 41*10 44°00
Aenona 41*30 44°00
Iader colonia 42*00 43°45
mouth of the Titus river 42*20 43°10
Scardona 42*40 43°30


Maritime shore of Dalmatia
Sicum 43*00 43°20
Salonae colonia 43*20 43°10
Epetium 43*40 43°00
Pituntium 44*00 42°45
Onaeum 44*00 42°30
mouth of the Naronus river 44*30 42°20
Epidaurus 44*40 42°20
Rhisium 44*40 42°15
Acruvium 44*45 42°00
Rhizonicus bay 45*00 42°00
Butua 45*00 41°45
Ulcinium 45*00 41°30
mouth of the Drilo river 45*00 41°20
Lissus 45*00 41°10

The river Drilo flows from the Scardus mountains and from that other mountain which is near the middle of Upper Moesia,

the location of which is in 45*40 42°40

From this another river, the Drinus, joining the Save river, empties into it on the west of the town Tauruno.

The Ispydes, the Hyllaei and the Bulimenses inhabit this Istrian province bordering on the seacoast; above these in Liburnia toward the west are the Mazaei, then the Derriopes and the Derri, and above the Derriopes are the Dindari, above these are the Ditiones, and above the Derri are the Cerauni; in Dalmatia are the Daursi, below whom are the Melcomenii and the Vardaei, below these are the Narensi and the Sardiotae and below these are the Siculotae, the Docleatae, the Pirustae, and the Scirtones near Macedonia.

The inland towns of Liburnia are

Tediastum 39*00 44°50
Aruccia 39*30 44°45
Ardotium 40*00 44°50
Stulpi 39*30 44°40
Curcum 40*30 44°30
Ausancali 41*30 44°45
Varvaria 41*10 44°10
Salvia 41*20 44°40
Adra 42*30 44°40
Arauzona 42*30 44°20
Assesia 42*15 44°20
Burnum 42*45 44°20
Sidrona 43*30 44°30
Blanona 42*10 44°00
Ouporum 43*00 44°00
Nedinum 44*30 44°15

The inland towns of Dalmatia are

Andecrium 43*30 43°30
Aleta 44*00 43°10
Herona 44*20 43°45
Delminium 44*40 43°20
Aequum colonia 44*30 43°20
Saloniana 45*00 43°20
Narona colonia 44*20 42°45
Enderum 45*30 42°50
Chinna 45*40 42°30
Doclea 45*20 42°15
Rhizana 45*15 42°00
Scodra 45*30 41°30
Thermidava 46*00 41°45
Siparuntum 46*30 42°10
Epicaria 45*30 41°15
Iminacium 46*00 41°20

The islands near Liburnia are Apsorrus, in which are two towns

Crepsa 36*40 44°30
Apsorrus 36*50 44°30

and Curicta, in which are two towns

Fulfinium 38*10 44°20
Curicum 38*20 44°15

and the island Scardona, in which are two towns

Arba 40*40 43°40
Collentum 41*40 43°30

Near Dalmatia are the islands

Issa and the town 42*20 43°00
Tragurium and town 43*00 42°15
Pharia and town 42*00 42°20
Corcyra Nigra 44*00 41°45
Melita island 44*10 41°20

source :
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/home.html - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer...olemy/home.html

Please do point out how many of these place names continue to be used.

4) - The limited Illyrian vocabulary we know has its descendants in our language.


Again a very interesting claim!!!
Please tell me WHY on earth is Albanian totally ALIEN to the Messapic inscriptions found???

5) - Many Illyrian anthroponyms i.e. personal names have been preserved by the Albanians like Dash from Dassios, Bardh(osh) from Bardus, Dede from Didi etc - the Illyrian anthroponyms are also explained by our language like Bardhyllus meaning white star, from bardh & (h)yll(us) meaning white & star, or the name of Illyria's oldest known king, Hyllus, from yll or hyll, meaning star!

I don't see why this is of any relevence. I know of Americans, Germans among many other people that tend to give their children mythologic names. Herakles and Homer are really common, could this mean that they are descendants of the ancient Hellines? Nope.

As for Hyllus, if you do a little mythologic search, you'll find he was son of Herakles and later king of the Dorians. We also know that the Dorians were situated for some time in Epirus waiting for 3 yrs so the myth says. It is quite obvious that the name possibly means Sun from the Hellinic Hlios and was nothing more than a possible adoption.

6) - In our language two week-days are attributed to the Illyrian divinities; Thursday is called after the Illyrian war-fire god Enji and Friday is named after the goddess of fertility, which was Prema.

7) - The names/etymologies of other gods as well are also explained through our language. The whine-god(dess) Dualos is from where our word to be drunk, dejur, comes from!

Never heard of any of these Gods being mentioned in any archelogic article, just in a couple of forums but no source of their origin. Please do provide one. (and I don't mean alb-net or anything similar)

10) - Our language borrows both from archaic Latin & Greek, which wouldn't be possible unless we inhabited the Balkans 2,000 years ago. This is obvious.

Wrong, every single maritime terminology of Albanian is not your own, but is borrowed from different languages.

Albanian has an insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.

The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.

The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shköder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.
(I wanted to post this one above but it works here also)

Sources :
H. Kronasser, ‘Zum Stand der Illyristik’ (Linguistique Balkanique, IV, 1962, pp. 5 ff.); R. Katicic', 'Namengebiete im römischen Dalmatian" (Die Sprache, X, Vienna, 1964, pp. 23 ff.); id., Illyrii proprie dicti (iva Antika, Skopje, XIII/XIV, 1964, pp. 87 ff.); id., 'Suvremena istraivanja o jeziku starosjedilaca ilirskih provincija' (Nauno društvo SR Bosne i Hercegovine, IV, Sarajevo, 1964, pp. 9 ff.); G. Alföldy, 'Die Namengebung der Urbevölkerung der römischen Provinz Dalmatia’ (Beiträge zur Namenforschung, 15, Heidelberg, 1964, pp. 54 ff).

11) - Cultural similiairites between us and Illyrians are striking. Both adored the snake as a sacred symbol - according to the Greek myths and legends concerning Kadmos, they say that the Illyrians descended from Kadmos who had transformed into a snake, which tells alot. Then our clothes are quite similiar to the Illyrians, as well as other similiarities like the tradition of tattoos etc!

Yeah OK, whatever you say.

Many times have I questioned the total lack of historic memory,  you so kindly proved I was actually right.

The founding of Illyria was done by his son Illyrios and NOT by Kadmos. Apollodorus tells us that his parents were punished and he (Illyrios) was rased by a serpent. Which is how the name was given, after the 'founder/ progenitor' Illyrios, not his father Kadmos.

Now exactly how the clothes are similar is beyond me, unless Albanians today still dress in chlamys or whatever it was they wore back then.

Tattoos, com'on. You understand that these are actually rediculous arguments with absolutely NO value. The reference of tattoos is made by Strabo and Ptolemy when mentioning the Lapydes.
A mixture of Illyrians and Thracians that lived in Lapydia (situated between the Kulpa and Korana river in CROATIA)

You see, sc in Latin was pronnounced h, so Georgiev thinks that it should've evolved in Hodra, instead of transforming sc into shk. This is however disproved by numerous albanian loanwords from Latin which show the same evolution, like shkendia from scantilla which instead of evolving into hendia, adopted the shk sound ... the same goes for shkemb which comes from Latin scampus etc. So the Albanian version is much closer to the archaic version than the Slav version is, which wouldn't be possible if we weren't here prior to the Slavs' arrival,


This is a waste of time. You've totally screwed up a fine language.
SC sounds like SH ONLY in Medieval Latin!!!
In classical Latin C and G are always 'hard'.

An joke classical Latin students pull on medieval Latin students is the inscription from a monastery :  Papa fidem scit  (The Pope knows the Faith)

scit- > sh*t Get it?????
If this happened in all forms of Latin it wouldn't really be a joke

The true Illyrians are the un-Latinized and un-Slaviziced Albanians. This is confirmed by diverse facts. The limited Illyrian glossary we know of is also present in Albanian e.g. veglia (tool) from Illyrian is also found in Albanian vegla of the same meaning. Other examples are sica=thika=knife, mag=madh=great, rhinon=ren=cloud, mist etc etc.


Sorry but I just have to disagree once again.

Illyrian-"alt"= (a stream) Albo -"LUMË, RRYMË, CURRIL, RRËKE, PËRRUA, NIVEL"
Illyrian-"barba"= (a swamp) Albo -"MOÇAL"
Illyrian-"bra"= (brother) Albo-VËLLA, SHOK
Illyrian-"mag"= (great) Albo- FAMSHËM, KRYESOR, FISNIK, SHKËLQYER
Illyrian-"brisa"= (grapes) Albo-RRUSH
Illyrian-"metu"=(between) Albo-MES,NDËRMJET
Illyrian-"oseriates"=(lake) Albo-LIQEN, PELLG
Illyrian-"plo"=(strong) Albo-FORTË, THANTË
Illyrian-"rinos"=(cloud) Albo-HIJE, RE, TUFË
Illyrian-"sybina"=(a spear) Albo-SHTIZË
Illyrian-"teuta"=(a tribe/people) Albo-FIS, KLAN/ POPULL, KOMBËSI, GJINDE
Illyrian-"ves"=(kind) Albo-MIRË, DASHUR, SJELLSHËM

Sources for the Illyrian words:
1. Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan languages. Moscow, 1978.
2. Katicic, R. Ancient Languages of the Balkans. The Hague, 1976.

English-Albo translator:
http://www.foreignword.com/ - www.foreignword.com

It is also interesting that while we know that the Serbs came to their present area approx. in the 7th cent. (if not later) we find some quite interesting connections:

llirian- Serbian- Albanian- English
lugo- lug- pelg - pool
metu- medju- ndermjet- between
bra- brat- velle- brother
vesa- veselo- qelluar- good spirits
barba- bara- pellg- puddle
trtigo- trgovac- dyqanhxi- merchant

Does this mean that the Slavs are also decendants of the Illyrians or is it only your right to have a vivid imagination????

or instance, ancient Dalmatia is explained through the Albanian word delme/dalme meaning sheep. 'Coincidentally', the Greek geographer Strabo described Dalmatia as the land filled with sheeps. Dardania is exaplained through our word dardhë meaning pear. Around and in Dardania, Romans & Slavs translated indigenious toponyms related to Dardania (pear) to their own languages; thus we have the Pirustae (peare in Latin)


(10) On the coast of Illyria, along its whole extent, and in the neighbouring islands, there are numerous excellent harbours, contrary to what occurs on the opposite Italian coast, where there are none. As in Italy, however, the climate is warm, and the soil productive of fruits; olives also and vines grow readily, except in some few excessively rugged places. Although Illyria possesses these advantages, it was formerly neglected, through ignorance, perhaps, of its fertility; but it was principally avoided on account of the savage manners of the inhabitants, and their piratical habits.

The region situated above the sea-coast is mountainous, cold, and at times covered with snow. The northern part is still colder, so that vines are rarely to be met with either in the hills or in the plains lower down. These mountain-plains are in the possession of the Pannonians, and extend towards the south as far as the Dalmatians and Ardiæi. They terminate towards the north at the Ister, and approach towards [p. 488] the east close to the Scordisci, who live near the Macedonian and Thracian mountains.

STRABO book 7 chap. 5

Sorry but absolutely NO reference to sheep. If you can present the EXACT quote please do.

Not sure where you find your Latin translations but they're wrong.

Latin pear = "pirum" and
pear tree = pirus

Obviously Messapic seems to have alot of common features & vocabulary with our language;


Then why is it that no one has managed to deciher this?

klohi zis thotoria marta pido vastei basta 
veinan aran in daranthoa vasti staboos 
xohedonas daxtassi vaanetos inthi trigonoxo 
a staboos xohetthihi dazimaihi beiliihi 
inthi rexxorixoa kazareihi xohetthihi toeihithi 
dazohonnihi inthi vastima 
daxtas kratheheihi inthi ardannoa poxxonnihi a 
imarnaihi.

Their word for wolf was Daunus, which rersembles our word for violence, dhune, or teeth, dhembe! Their word for strong 'plo' resembles our word for someone who's heavy and powerfull, plote!


You can obviously see that these examples by no means support any kind of linguistic continuety. A wolf is a wolf, so why adopt a totally new word for it when you already have one. It should have at least kept it's original meaning along with eveolving into 'newer' ones.







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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 23:22
Sorry Phallanx but the theory that Albs were from the Caucasus was rejected long a while ago. Albanian has been proven to be an Indo-European language and it doesnt have any connection to that area of the world.


Here is a chechen-english dictionary on a dying

Caucasian language

http://ingush.berkeley.edu:7012/cgi-bin/search.pl?copyright= agree;lang=Chechen

Here is an Alb dictionary

http://www.argjiro.net/fjalor/

Can you find some links between the two? I've been using the Caucasian one for a long while and so far... The langauges couldnt get any further from one another.
That is an Udic language, which would be the langauge our ancestors would have derived from...

I mean even our name for ourselves does not match. I mean we called ourselves Arberor, that was Aghbania and even the book with their dictionary was called aluanic.
They adopted an armanian alphabet, something we never used.... Until the 20th century we used either a Greek, Latin or Cyrrilic alphabet. So right away we lost all of the influence we had from that region?


You are going at this indirectly, yes Albanian does have common origins with Romanian, but this only goes toward Thrako-Dacian origins, not Caucasian. I personally believe Alb doeant has any connections to the Illyrian language outside of remaining terms. The only other actually supported theory was the Dacian origin.


Illyrian-"mag"= (great) Albo- FAMSHËM, KRYESOR, FISNIK, SHKËLQYER

Realize that we dont use famshem to mean great. That means famous, kryesor means main. Shkelqyer means shine. Whos the ass linguistic who made these conections? When we say Alexander the Great, we say Alexander i Madh. We use madh(large) to be the equivalent of great...

Illyrian-"bra"= (brother) Albo-VËLLA, SHOK
Shok= friend
Vella= brother
This, however, neglects the fact that it is pronounced vlha, not vella. The e sort of becomes silent.

For pool in Albanian? Well there is also pellgu(not close but shows there is more to these that is being neglected)

Interesting that all of the following were taken from Slavic sources. This stuff goes on and on... I mean for instance merchant. In Alb its tregtar, dyqan means store. Also for "between" its still not the Illyrian term but it goes midis

Those scholars picked out worrds that obviously did not go with the believed Illyrian term.



Who is the linguist that supports this name origin, since every attempt to connect the Albanians to Illyrians I've seen, claims that the name derives from the Alban tribe.


Yes Alban was the latin origin either for "white" or Mountaneous. Same reason there was an Albania in the Caucasus.

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/9926/ptolomeysmap9fd.jpg] Here is the map

As for us having no memory of being Illyrians. Doesnt it seem odd to you that we have no memory of being from the Caucasus? I mean this was only in 1000AD. 1000 years ago. Yet we had NO memory of it. Why didnt Byzantine historians point this out? Why didnt they state that this character landed on the shores of Albania and left these people? These new soldiers?

If Albs did come from the Caucasus so recently. Wouldnt we have a higher concentration of EU19,EU10,EU11? We have about the same Greeks have or northern Italian...

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p115 5.pdf

You are putting the burden of proof on Illyrian side. Which is not too good since the Illyrian theory is the generally believed theory, next to the Dacian one. It's actually the Caucasian one that is the least accepted one(out there with the Pelasgian and Etruscan one).

As for sea terms

Sea

Alb - det
Greek - thalassa
Serbian - more/valjanje mora/talasi/okean/morski
Latin - quod
Udic - hord

river

Alb - lumë
Greek - potamos
Serbian - potok/reka
Latin - flumen
Udic- xi

(Latin borrowed)

lake

Alb - liqen
Greek - limni
Serbian - lak/jezero/crveni lak/
Latin - lacus
Udic - waam

wave

Alb - valë
Greek - kyma/ kymatizo/ seio/ kouno
Serbian - dati znak mahanjem ruke/ kovrdžavost
Latin - crispo/ fluctus/ procella/ undo
Udic - liastad.o

boat

Alb -   anije/ varkë
Greek - barka/ karabi/ ploio/ ploiario
Serbian - voziti se lađom/ lada/ čamac/
Latin - navis
Udic - (no word)

fish

Alb - peshk
Greek - psari, psarevo
Serbian -
Latin - piscis
Udic - ch'aara

(latin derived)



Im tired right now. Ill go on some other time. But you get the idea. Keep in mind this is using the older Geg dialect of Albanian, the Tosk one has had far too much Greek influence to be used.










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Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 01:11
It's just a theory, one of many. The only way to reject it is by discussing it. Simple actually.

I mean even our name for ourselves does not match......

They adopted an armanian alphabet, something we never used.... Until the 20th century we used either a Greek, Latin or Cyrrilic alphabet. So right away we lost all of the influence we had from that region?

I never said names match, I said you use similar sounds such as SQ, PSHQ, which are not common in any IE languages

CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA
ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA

You forgot Arabic, actually there were major riots when you decided to change it.
Whos the ass linguistic who made these conections?

Who ever mentioned a linguist???
I clearly state my source for both Illyrian words and meanings and the translator I used for Albanian. You obviously need to argue with the translator.

Sources for the Illyrian words:
1. Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan languages. Moscow, 1978.
2. Katicic, R. Ancient Languages of the Balkans. The Hague, 1976.

English-Albo translator:
www.foreignword.com




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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 01:21

CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA
ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA


Considering these evolved during later Ottoman times, they could very well be loanwords. I mean in our language Shqipria does not actually mean "sons of eagles", it actually has no meaning. Today, those are considering to have evolved from ottoman times, Ottoman initself was heavily based on Arabic. If it actually is influenced from that... This also isnt surprising as an arabic alphabet was used by Albs during ottoman times. However it was quickly ditched when people realized it was horrible to use for the language. And as for them, we dont use them anymore then english does.

That source you gave is horrible. For instance when I check boat, it shows shetit me varke. That does not mean boat, it means travel with a boat... People who dont know alb will use the entire thing. Thats one small example.

After Arabic conquest, in the 7th century, the place ceased to be called Albania. By the 8th century it was called Aranshahs principality. No longer anything similar with Aluani or Aghbania(which themselves are pretty far from Arberor). This is 300 years before they were supposed to come to present day Albania.

Btw, that old Chechen dictionary has the same Arab words that we should have took with us.

And Phallanx http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04606b.htm - here the whole sheep connection is explained.

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Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 11:58
Originally posted by Kuu-ukko

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Also today, none of the Arabic countries use these symbols in their flags. The ones which are using these are influenced with Turkish beliefs...


Tunisia, Algeria and Mauritania have the exact same symbols in their flags, but they aren't influenced by Turkish beliefs, they have nothing to do with Turkey. The only thing common with for example Algeria and Turkey is Islam. What we can conclude from this............


neritan aren't Albanian and Illyrian recognized with some other language as originating from a same proto-language? PS. Nice examples about the similarities


bosnia uses the star and crescent to for islam, but on the other hand all three were part of the ottoman empire.


Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 12:00
Originally posted by Maju

While I find  myself unable to yield any accurate opinion on the question of the origin of Albanians, I find quite shocking the Balcanic ultranationalims that some display. It is obvious that populations don't change throughtly due to migrations but only partly. Natives are often assimilated either by grade or by force and, If Illyrians dwelled in Albania, Croatia, Bosnia and Montengro at some time in history it is more than reasonable to think that they didn't just become extinct but that they survived through assimliation to Romans and later other peoples... Equally those peoples that lived in the area before Illyrians arrived around 1300 BCE also had become assimilated by Illyrians, as the Paleolithic natives also were assimilated by the carriers of the Cardium-Printed pottery that were maybe originary from Lebanon. Populations have moved in history but not that much. Most people have always remained in their places and it is logical to think that Albanians and other peoples of the region descend at least partly from Illyrians as they were known in ancient historical times.

This is the same as assuming that many French descend largely from Gauls, despite their language being of Italian origin and their name coming from a German league of tribes; or that accepting that most English people could eventually track their ancestors to ancient Britons rather than to Anglos, Saxons and Jutes; or that most Moroccans descend from Berbers rather than from Arabs, etc.

Fortunatley people tends to accept each day more that their ancestry is not a linnear history but a complex mixture and that nations are not the same as "races", as one speaks of ethnicity (language and culture) and the other of genetics and these often are largely unrelated.


true that is why i say that im bosnian but with turkish descent because without the combination of the medieval bosnians and the medieval ottomans there would be no modern bosians.


Posted By: Kenaney
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 13:09
Originally posted by Yiannis

Warning!

Please do not insult forum members with racist or fascist remarks. Read the forum rules and adhere to them:  http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1338&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1338& ; ;PN=1

In "that" forum members are Turks included?



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OUT OF LIMIT


Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 13:52

hehe,

np, If we are half greek, but It is problem If they are half-Turk.

Maybe turk word is insult?

 



Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 17:46

Originally posted by Kenaney

In "that" forum members are Turks included?

I do believe that I was clear enough. If something is still vague, I'd strongly advise to re-read the forum rules



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Kenaney
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2005 at 08:15

Then i should strongly advice you mods to practice the forum rules everywhere you can.

That goes also for me,

thanks in advance



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OUT OF LIMIT


Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2005 at 12:27
I agree with kenaney on that matter


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 05:51

Originally posted by Phallanx

It's just a theory, one of many. The only way to reject it is by discussing it. Simple actually.

[QUOTE]I mean even our name for ourselves does not match......

CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA
ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA

 

You keep going with your BS!

Can't you understand that name Shqipëria has nothing to do with Ichqeria!

Shqipëria = Shqiponja = Eagle

Do you want me to say more about this?

Hehe



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Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 06:22
Gjergj_Arianiti,
Please refrain from using abusive language.
Simple statement of your arguments is enough.
You can hurt somebody's feelings by building strong arguments, but not vulgarities.
Thanks.


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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 09:39
Gjergj_Arianiti

I can't say that I am bothered by your insolence, but that fact that you intentionally manipulated my post to support your view is damn annoying, since I'm in a good mood today and you're a new member I'll let it pass this once.

If you read the post again, you'll see that I clearly said:

Originally posted by phallanx Posted: 15 July 2005 at 1:11am

]I never said names match, I said you use similar sounds such as SQ, PSHQ, which are not common in any IE languages

CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA
ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA


I really don't care what the name means, it could mean bullfrog or poultry  for all I care, the meaning is totally irrelevant. That isn't the point, the point is similar sounds. Let's hope you do understand it this time.


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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 12:04

phaaa

Albanians the old in BALKAN but greek are not

Costumes greeks are albanian, food are turkish

Language homerike are albanins language not greeks

long live Albania-Illyrtia



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 12:08

The name Albania   probably derives from the Proto-Indo-European root *albho, which meant 'white'. Others think it may share the same origin as the name of the Alps, the etymology of which is disputed.

Ptolemy

The earliest known occurance of the ethnonym Albanoi as the name of an Illyrian tribe in what is now north-central Albania goes back to 130 A.D., in a work of Ptolemy. Albanopolis of the Albani, a place located on the map of Ptolemy (3.12.20) and also named on an ancient family epitaph at Scupi, which has been identified with the Zgërdhesh hill-fort near Kruja in northern Albania. Moreover, Arbanon is just likely to be the name of a district - the plain of the Mat has been suggested - rather than particular place. An indication of movement from higher altitudes in a much earlier period has been detected in the distribution of place-names ending in -esh that appears to derive from the latin -enisis or -esis, between the Shkumbin and the Mat, with a concentration between Elbasan and Kruja.

The term Albanoi may have been slowly spread to other Illyrian tribes until its usage became universal among all the Albanian people. According to the Albanian scholar Faďk bey Konitza, the term "Albania" did not displace "Illyria" completely until the end of the fourteenth century. The word "Alba" or "Arba" seems to be connected with the town Arba (modern Rab, Croatia), in prehistoric times inhabited by the Liburnians, first mentioned in 360 BC.

Byzantines

Approximately a millennium after, some Byzantine writers use the words “Albanon” and “Arbanon” to indicate the region of Kruja. Under the Angiň, in the XIII century, the names “Albania “and “Albanenses” indicate the whole country and all the population, as it is demonstrated by the works of many ancient Albanian writers such as Budi, Blanco and Bogdano. We first learn of Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Comnenas' account (Alexiad 4) of the troubles in that region caused in the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081- 1118) by the Normans. In ‘History’ written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium. The Italo-Albanians and the Albanian minorities (still present in Greece) have been called in different ways with the passing of the years: Arbënuer, Arbënor, Arbëneshë, Arbreshë.





Shqipëria

There seems to be no doubt that the root Alb- or Arb- is earlier than Shqip-, from which the modern name of the state (Shqipëria) derives, a name which appears only in the time of the Turkish invasions. The Albanian name of the country, Shqipëria, translates into English as "Land of the Eagles", hence the two-headed bird on the national flag and emblem, and because of the large presence of these animals in the mountainous zones of Albania.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 12:12

 History of Illyria
-Jennifer Wallace-


Pjesa I

Throughout history., little has been known about the land of Illyria. 'As "savages" or "barbarians" on the northern periphery of the classical world'., the historian John Wilkes writes., 'even today the IUyrians barely make footnotes in most versions of ancient history., and more often than not they are simply ignored.'1 Shut in by mountains., north of the better-known Greece and covering roughly the area of modern-day Albania., Macedonia., and Bosnia^ Illyria has remained a closed world to outsiders., dismissed as barbarian in ancient times and remembered in more recent centuries only as an unexplored outpost of the Ottoman or Hapsburg Empires. As a result, Illyria has become a place of mystery., the site of myth and legend as much as of historical civilization-building or battles, a by-word for the realm of the imagination. Oscar Wilde summed up the popular association of Illyria with fiction when., in a review of an amateur production of Twelfth Night, he wrote with characteristic succinctness: 'Where there is no illusion there is no Illyria.'2
In his recent book The Ilyrians, John Wilkes attempts to reverse this ignorance by stripping away the accumulated legends., or 'illusion'.,
 
about the Illyrian people and unearthing, in their stead, painstaking detail about the reality of their civilization. But this strategy seems to reduce the overall picture of the identity of Illyria. For Illyria has always been a place where fact and fiction meet, where myth is substituted in the absence of knowledge and later becomes a geographical or historical reality, mapped onto the physical landscape or the territory's political borders. Illyria has also always been a threshold between the known and the unknown world, a threshold internalized by the Illyrian peoples themselves, sometimes considered 'Western' - and even Greek - but at other times thought to be barbarian and different. It is a liminal space which dramatizes the problems of our conventional polarizations of ethnic identity.
In many ways, the study of Illyria, its myth and history, serves as an analogy for the study of Greece. Greece, too, comes with almost as much mythical baggage as historical facts. In the lesser known, and lesser loved, example of Illyria, we have a parallel land combining a powerful mixture of ancient stories and dimly remembered historical details to forge its independence in the nineteenth century. But Illyria is interesting because throughout history it has served, not only as a parallel for Greece, but also as a counterpoint to it. From Herodotus to Byron, Illyria has been cited as the opposite of Greece, used to illuminate, by contrast, the particular qualities of Greece. This contrast has by no means been straightforward, since it has not always been obvious where Greece stops and Illyria begins. Indeed Illyria serves to highlight the fact that the conventional polarization between Greek and barbarian/other, which persisted through ancient Greek history and has been revived since independence in 1830, created as much anxiety and lack of distinction as it did clarity. Thus the history of Illyria and its literary appropriation raises the issue of Greek ethnicity - both ancient and modern - and sheds light upon the uneasy relationship between national myth, politics, and geography which still troubles the Balkan area today.
Ancient Model
The mountainous land of the ancient Illyrian tribes stretched down the Adriatic coast from modern-day Trieste to the Rhizonic gulf. The ancient Greeks considered the Illyrians to be barbarians. They were non-Greek speakers and they had different customs; they were made up of various tribes. Herodotus refers to the Eneti tribe in Illyria and their habit of taking their daughters to the marketplace to sell them for marriage, a custom which he compares with that of the Babylonians, another barbarian people.3 Yet the clear distinction between the Greeks and barbarians with different customs is made more complicated by the observation that all of Greece was once populated by barbarians. Herodotus comments early in his history that Greece was originally occupied by Pelasgians who spoke a non-Greek language.4 This notion of the barbarian origins of Greece was corroborated centuries later by Strabo in his Geography:
Now Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus that before the time of the Greeks it was inhabited by barbarians. Yet one might say that in the ancient times the whole of Greece was a settlement of barbarians, if one reasons from the traditions themselves. . . . And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians -Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Threspoti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes - Epeirotic tribes.5
According to this argument, the Hellenic Greeks had either emerged or arrived after the original barbarians and had civilized them and the land. The Illyrians and the Greeks were therefore thought to have shared a common origin, even if they had subsequently drifted apart. The Illyrians were closer to the primitive beginnings of the land, while the Greeks, like their Olympian gods, represented a later, and possibly higher, civilization. Beyond ancient myths of ethnic origin, the Illyrians were also deeply involved with the Greeks in the historical period. Strabo refers to the fact that 'the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks'. In fact much of Thrace, Illyria, and Epirus was colonized by the Greeks, with the inevitable mingling and merging of the peoples. The largest Greek colony in Illyria was Epidamnus, the later Durazzo. It was here, according to Thucydides, that the first sparks of the Peloponnesian War caught fire. In 435 B.C., the aristocrats of Epidam¬nus were expelled by a newly emerged democratic group of people in the city. Anxious to regain their power, they allied themselves with the neighbouring people, 'a barbarian tribe, the Taulantians, of Illyrian race (ethnos)\6 'Making common cause with the barbarians', Thucydides writes, the aristocrats 'plundered those who were in the city both by land and sea'.7 The besieged democrats sought help from Corinth, the city of their original founder, while the now outnumbered aristocrats were soon aided by the newer colonizers, Corcyra. Athens and Sparta were quickly drawn into the feud, as the different political alliances spread, and the Hellenic world began the process of tearing itself apart.
The Illyrians had a role to play later in the war in the battle of shifting alliances which characterized the campaigns. Since the Illyrians lived on the 'flanks' of Greece, as Strabo commented, it was unclear to con¬temporaries whether they supported Athens or Sparta in the war, whether indeed they were sufficiently Greek to express support for either city. In one particular campaign, described by Thucydides, Brasidas the Spartan general believes that his ally Perdiccas, who leads a troop of Macedonians, has elicited the support of the Illyrians, only to discover that they have deserted and gone to help the opposition. The Illyrians, suddenly become enemies, present a frightening prospect to the Spartans, precisely because they are barbarian and different. Brasidas feels the need of a rallying speech:
Now as for these Illyrians, for those who have had no experience of them, the menace of their attack has terror; for their number is indeed dreadful to behold and the loudness of their battle-cry is intolerable, and the idle brandishing of their arms has a threatening effect. But for hand-to-hand fighting, if their opponents but endure such threats, they are not the men they seem; for having no regular order, they would not be ashamed to abandon any position when hard pressed; and since flight and attack are considered equally honourable with them, their courage cannot be put to the test.8
Brasidas defines the otherness of the Illyrians by pointing both to their excessive violence - their war-cry and their arms - and at the same time to their weakness - their tendency to retreat. What is not stressed is the fact that until the news of the Illyrian betrayal, Brasidas was prepared, and hoping, to fight alongside the men he now condemns so vehe¬mently. Greek alliances, and thus to an extent Greek identity, are forged by such whims and exigencies of war.
In the third century B.C., the Romans began their conquest of the area, and two centuries later they had succeeded in establishing command. They named the province Illyricum. The place, and the name, lasted until the sixth or seventh centuries A.D. when Slav invasions changed the character of the whole region. Many Illyrians are thought to have died or to have fled. The others were absorbed by Slavic settlers. The name for the actual geographical place disappeared for the next thousand years. It left the space free for the fictionalizers.
 
Literary Metamorphoses
The most well-known literary representation of Illyria occurs in Shake¬speare's Twelfth Night. Viola finds herself shipwrecked on the shores of Illyria at the start of the play, and the subsequent comedy of the plot derives from the fact that she comes from a strange world beyond the naive isolation of Illyria and therefore her identity is unknown. Shake¬speare's story is drawn from the tangled comic narratives of Plautus and most directly, it is thought, from the Italian play GV Inganni.9 There is no mention of Illyria in these plays. But one source for Shakespeare's Illyrian setting has been suggested - Ovid's Metamorphoses. Ovid describes Cadmus and Harmonia being washed onto the Illyrian shore after shipwreck and the turmoil of losing their daughter:
Compelled with grief and great mishappes that had ensewed together And strange foretokens often seene since first his coming thither. He utterly forsakes his towne the which he builded had, As though the fortunes of the place so hardly him bessad And not his owne. And fleeting long like pilgrims, at the last Upon the coast of Illirie his wife and he were cast.10
Besides Homer's description of the shipwreck of Odysseus in Odyssey 5, Cadmus' wreck upon Illyria had become one of the chief literary models for shipwreck in classical literature and therefore a clear source for Shakespeare's account. Besides, there is in the notion of the metamor¬phosis which comes over Cadmus and Harmonia on landing upon Illyria (they become snakes), a particular resource for comedy. The humour of Twelfth Night is based upon the saturnalian possibilities of the festive season to change identities and to turn hierarchies upside-down. Viola cross-dresses, Malvolio is fooled and mocked by the socially inferior members of the household. Comedy indeed is licensed to offer a topsy¬turvy mirror to the world. But the dark side of the play, such as Feste's mournfully reflective songs or the loss of Viola/Cesario's freedom as she reverts back in Act V to the meekly feminine Viola, also owes something to Ovid's Illyria in the Metamorphoses. Cadmus and Harmonia as snakes, or in Golding's translation 'Dragons', live in wistful remembrance of their past: 'now remembering what they were themselves in tymes forepast / They neither shonne nor hurten men with stinging nor with blast.'11 Illyria offers the chance to explore the irrevocable, tragic consequences of change as well as the comic.12
 
But besides a place of comic or tragic metamorphosis, Shakespeare's Illyria is a traditional paradise. The connection between Illyria and paradise is highlighted in Viola's opening scene:
Viola: What country, friends, is this? Captain: This is Illyria, lady.
Viola: And what should I do in Illyria? My brother he is in Elysium.
Illyria and Elysium are linked through alliteration. It is as if Viola has died and been washed ashore onto her own Elysium, Illyria. Later the parallel becomes even stronger when it is discovered that Sebastian, Viola's brother, has also survived the shipwreck and has landed in Illyria. His Elysium is also Illyria; Viola's opening words have proved false and yet strangely truer than she realises. Both siblings achieve Elysian happiness with the lovers they meet in Illyria.
In Matthew Arnold's poem Empedocles on Etna (1852), Illyria returns to Ovid's model in that it is again the setting for the story of Cadmus and Harmonia. While Empedocles agonizes about his sense of alienation from society on the mountain peak, Callicles sings the 'soothing' song of Cadmus and Harmonia in the valley below. Unlike Ovid's account, Arnold's Cadmus and Harmonia, 'far in the Illyrian brakes', do not remember their past:
Therefore they did not end their days
In sight of blood; but were rapt, far away,
To where the west-wind plays,
And murmurs of the Adriatic come
To those untrodden mountain-lawns; and there
Placed safely in changed forms, the pair
Wholly forgot their first sad life, and home,
And all that Theban woe, and stray
For ever through the glens, placid and dumb.13
Illyria becomes the site of forgetfulness, almost of troubling erasure. There are echoes, in Cadmus and Harmonia's 'placid' state, of the Lotos Eaters portrayed by Arnold's contemporary, Tennyson. Indeed it is tempting to think that the ancient mapping of the Illyrians and the Lotos Eaters side by side, beyond the boundaries of the known world, must have filtered down to the Victorians.14 The peaceful Illyrian landscape, with its soporific power to quell awkward resistance and anxiety, provides one controversial answer to Arnold's anxious but fascinated questioning of his contemporary world.15

Romantic Quest
At the end of the eighteenth century and beginning of the nineteenth century - the so-called Romantic period - Illyria once more assumed a historical and geographical specificity, albeit one influenced by the mythical associations of the name which had developed. The key figure in this alteration was Napoleon. By the treaty of Schonbrunn in 1809, the lands bordering the Adriatic were ceded by Austria to the Napoleonic kingdom of Italy. Napoleon chose to call these newly acquired lands - then known as Trieste, Croatia, Carinthia, Istria, and Dalmatia - the 'Illyrian Provinces', a term not used since ancient times. As in his other campaigns, notably the one in Egypt, Napoleon was using ancient history to justify his military appropriation and reconstruction. Lands once acquired by him were 'liberated' from recent historical oppression and degeneration, according to the current rhetoric, and restored to their original identity and splendour, albeit under the French aegis.16 Restoring the name Illyria for the territory north-west of Greece was part of this strategy. And even though in 1815, with Napoleon's defeat, the land returned to Austrian rule, the consciousness of an ancient identity had by then been raised. The area, under the Hapsburg Empire, became known as the 'kingdom of Illyria'.
The nineteenth-century Slav independence campaign, which carried the name the Illyrian Movement, appropriated the myth which had been fabricated by the West, by outsiders, and used it for a new, nationalist purpose. Like the Greeks in their campaign for independence, the southern Slavs devoted much energy to asserting their descent from the ancient Illyrians. The mysteriousness and the elysian qualities of the Illyrians of western legend became transformed into a vision of their former purity and perfection. The chief agitator for independence, Ljudevit Gaj, for example, urged the purity of the Illyrian language which must be re-acquired or re-invented. Writing in 1835 at the start of the campaign, he attempted to inspire dissenters:
Brother Illyrians, when will we, inhabitants of the old, great and world-famous Illyrica, throw away our prejudices and self deception and follow the glorious examples of our neighbours. . . . Books for the common people can be written in the local dialects but let educated and cultured Illyria have a mature and sweet language and a simple literature as her neighbour, Italy.17
Western travellers to Greece also became interested in Illyria after Napoleon's re-awakening. Chief among the travel writers was William Martin Leake, whose 'principal object [in writing] was a comparison of the ancient and modern geography, by confronting the information contained in the ancient authors with the actual state of the country'.18 His main concern was Albania, whose people, he argued, were des¬cended from the ancient Illyrians. Indeed, according to his thesis, the Albanians had originally been one of the Illyrian tribes and had now blossomed to inhabit the vast mountainous territory in modern-day north-west Greece, Albania, and southern Yugoslavia. The Albanians were of interest to Leake partly for political reasons. They lived within the Napoleonic Empire, although never physically invaded or con¬quered by Napoleon, and thus offered a mediating vision of the enemy. Leake writes in the preface of 1814:
Subsequent events, which have checked the torrent of French ambition, may have diminished the political importance of Albania, but at the time these Researches were made, its dialect had received an additional claim to notice from the changes which had brought the country where it is spoken into contact with our own enemies, who then made no secret of their design of seeking a road through Albania into Greece. Under these circumstances it became doubly interesting to obtain some knowledge of the language . . .
Once again, as in ancient times, Illyria/Albania was serving as a buffer between the known and unknown world, between the allies and the enemies.
But Leake was also interested in the Albanians because they seemed purer and therefore possibly more Greek than the Greeks. They were uncontaminated by invasion and were fiercely nationalistic. Leake described them as
irregular and undisciplined as soldiers, but possessing a perfect familiarity with the use of arms; ferocious and ignorant and uncivilised, but cherishing an enthusiastic partiality for their native mountains, and adding to the advantages of a country, which opposes the strongest natural obstacles to an invader, that determination to resist all foreign intruders, and that confidence in their ability to defend themselves, which had, until that period of the war, been found very deficient in soe more civilised nations of Europe.19

 



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 12:14
Pjesa II

The resistance to invasion meant that the Albanians were arguably closer to their distant ancestors than the Greeks, who had suffered incursions from Romans, northern barbarians, and eastern Turks and were now often indistinguishable from their Ottoman rulers. The Albanians therefore seemed to offer a picture of how the Greeks might have been, a picture of the more attractive elements of Greek culture.20 Leake pointed out the subtle distinctions and connections:
Although possessing a marked distinction from the Greeks in form and physiognomy, having light eyes and high cheek-bones, they resemble very much in character and manners the natives of the more mountainous and independent districts of Greece. They possess perhaps more evenness of conduct, more prudence, more fidelity to their employers, and at the same time more selfishness, avidity, and avarice, but there is found in them the same rigid observance of religious prejudices, the same superstitions, the same active, keen, and enterprising genius, the same hardy, patient and laborious habits.21
Major Leake's theories quickly took hold. The clergyman Henry Holland, who published his travels the year after Leake's work, wrote of 'the discovery' of the Illyrians and endorsed without reservation Leake's argument that the Albanians had descended from the Illyrians: 'I should be disposed, then, to consider this historical point of the origin of the Albanians as nearly settled, as to give additional interest to the examination of a people who have descended from distant times, with fewer changes perhaps in their situation and habits of life than almost any other community in Europe.'22 But John Cam Hobhouse, the companion of Byron's travels, was sceptical. He dismissed Leake's theories and argued that the Illyrian region had always been populated by a miscellany of barbarian tribes, an 'almost uninterupted sucession of barbarians', for which a pure continuous line of descent was impossible. He confessed an admiration for the Albanian people, who were 'exceedingly decent in their outward manners and behaviour', but this was rather as a result of the enjoyment of otherness than a consequence of re-claiming the Illyrians as Greek.23 It is significant that Hobhouse's map does not designate the region as Illyria but as Albania, while Leake's map clearly terms the area which lies west of Macedonia Illyria.24 The terms used by these cartographers were clearly more influenced by their particular theories of ethnic and historical identity than by any objective geographical or common usage on the ground.
Byron's Mapping
Byron's description of Illyria in Childe Harold was published just a few years before Hobhouse's and Leake's maps, which owe much to his discovery. The sense of the obscurity and attractive difference of the Albanians/Illyrians which Leake reveals is inspired by Byron's portrayal. But Byron's Illyria is far more complicated than that of Leake, with his narrower ethnic concerns. Byron's Illyria is characterized by a great range of its associations, the changing significance of Illyria described so far. It draws upon the political Illyria, the literary, the mythical, and so uses one reading to impinge upon another.
One normally associates Byron's Childe Harold II with the philhellenic movement and certainly the poem is primarily concerned with creating a vision of classical Greece, a 'sad relic of departed worth'. The melan¬choly of the narrator of Childe Harold influences the particular vision of classical Greece with its ruined columns, weed-strewn villages, and ancient battlefields and urges swift action from the British readers, who are created as the obvious sympathizers and inheritors of the situation, to remedy the situation. But besides the clearly philhellenizing rhetoric of the poem, Byron also explores other myths about Greece and other ways of understanding the country. This counter-rhetoric reaches a climax in a particular stanza:
From the dark barriers of that rugged clime
Ev'n to the centre of Illyria's vales,
Childe Harold pass'd o'er many a mountain sublime,
Through lands scarce noticed in historic tales;
Yet in famed Attica such lovely dales
Are rarely seen; nor can fair Tempe boast
A charm they know not; loved Parnassus fails,
Though classic ground and consecrated most,
To match some spots that lurk within this lowering coast.25
The contrast between 'Illyria's vales' and 'famed Attica' could hardly be made more telling. One is obscure but 'sublime', the other 'classic', 'consecrated most', familiar. But what did Byron mean by Illyria?
The first answer must be that he was thinking of the historical or political significance of Illyria. When Childe Harold was published, Napoleon had enjoyed control over the region for two years, and had re-introduced the ancient name, the Illyrian Provinces. It is widely recognized that Childe Harold is a topical, political poem. Byron's landscape in the poem, for example, has been called 'a palimpsest of political maps'.26 As Byron's protagonist, Harold, travels from Portugal, Spain, Malta, Greece, and Illyria, he is effectively touring the areas most contested by the British and the French during the Napoleonic War. The little-known Illyrian Provinces were part of the new empire, just as the 'sad relic' of Greece was part of the old ancient empire, now departed. Byron's poem marks the re-inscribing of the historical Illyria in the public consciousness.
But at the same time, Byron is keen to keep Illyria private, to retain its imaginary or literary qualities. While Childe Harold maps Napoleonic Europe, it is also concerned to subordinate 'public sentiment to indi¬vidual feeling'.27 Harold invokes the topical, martial quality of his travels only to reject that association:
Oft did he mark the scenes of vanished war, Actium, Lepanto, fatal Trafalgar: Mark them unmoved, for he would not delight (Born beneath some remote inglorious star) In themes of bloody fray, or gallant fight, But loathed the bravo's trade, and laughed at martial wight.28
Trafalgar, scene of the recent victory of the British over the French, is rejected in favour of Harold's private feelings and personal reflections. So, too, with IUyria. First in his notes to the poem, Byron wrests IUyria back from the French by noting the similarity between the Albanians, 'part of IUyria', and the Scots: 'The Arnaouts, or Albanese, struck me forcibly by their resemblance to the Highlanders of Scotland, in dress, figure and manner of language.'29 The Illyrians are now British again, although as Highlanders they are still excitingly marginal. Second, Byron invokes the literary significance of IUyria, the Shakespearean Elysium. Illyria becomes the land of fiction, the 'lands scarce noticed in historic tales', its sublimity an indication of its mystery. And by contrasting it with the 'classic ground' of Attica, Byron alludes to the long-running literary conflict between the French neoclassicism and the wildness of Shakespeare which broke all conventional rules. The Illyria of Shakespeare's Twelfth Night allows the individual imagination to overshadow the public, historical might of Napoleon.
But Shakespeare's Illyria was not only useful in countering Napoleon. Byron, in this stanza, was deliberately contrasting it with classical Greece. The Illyria of Twelfth Night was recognizably fictional, a magical conjuring trick by the dramatist. So by contrasting the Shakespearean Greece and the philhellenic classical one, Byron was able to question the historical validity of either image. The contingency of the two concepts of Greece become evident when juxtaposed. The idealizing and gloomy picture of Marathon, Thermopylae or Athens is exposed as another stereotype, a Western vision or imagining, rather than an objective, documentary description. Thus Byron's appropriation of Shakespeare's Illyria makes uncertain the assumed essential and uninterrupted link between the ancient Greek past and the contemporary Greek present upon which philhellenism and Greek nationalism depend.30


Transformations
Byron's portrayal of Illyria is salutary. Much of the history of Illyria seems ostensibly to be the history of nationalism. Recalling standard accounts of the rise of nationalism, Illyria has been the place where fiction and fact meet, where myths become appropriated as history and used to forge a nation's physical geographical existence.31 Today, when we have experienced the use of mythical or literary versions of identity to justify violent wars of nationalism, the difficulty of distinguishing between a fictional and a factual place called Illyria might seem disturbing. But Byron's poem, which combines the Illyria of war and of literature, deliberately allowing the two associations to clash and resonate uncomfortably together, highlights the particular, different qualities of the place. Rather than any fervently believed but misplaced notions of an essential Illyria, the (hi) story of the place reveals a tradition of liminality, of contingency, of reversal, where fixed identities and expectations are tested and overturned. That elusive (or elysian) capacity of Illyria to challenge fixed ideas offers the possibility of a different model of national identity and other ways of imagining a place.32





NOTES - References
*This article was prompted by a question following a paper I gave at the Cambridge University 'Greek Worlds' seminar. I am grateful to the seminar organizers, Pat Easterling and Shannan Peckham, for their suggestions at the time, and to Brendan Simms for later conversations.
1.   The Illyrians (Oxford, 1993), 4.
2.   'Twelfth Night at Oxford', First Collected Edition of the Works of Oscar Wilde, 1908-1922, ed.
by R. Ross, 15 vols. (London, 1969), Vol. 13, 46.
3.   1. 196.
4.   1. 56-8.
5.   7.7.1. See also E. Hall, Inventing the Barbarian: Greek Self-Definition  Through Tragedy
(Oxford, 1989), 170.
6.   1. 24. 1-2.
7.   1. 24. 5-6.
8.   4. 126.
9.   See J. M. Lothian and T. W. Craik (edd.), Twelfth Night (Arden edition, London, 1975),
v-xli.

10.   The XVBookes of P. Ovidius Nasoy entytuled Metamorphosis, translated out of Latin into English
meetery by Arthur Golding Gentleman, A worke very pleasaunt and delectable (London, 1567), 52.
Shakespeare would have read Ovid in Golding's translation.
11.   The XVBookes of P. Ovidius Naso, 52.
12.   See J. Bate, Shakespeare and Ovid (Oxford, 1993), 144-51, for a dark reading of Illyria and
the Metamorphoses in Twelfth Night.
13.   Empedocles on Etna I.ii.452-60.
14.   See, for example, Geographi Graeci Minores, ed. by C. Miiller (Paris, 1855-61), i. 15-96:

A  (HI)STORY  OF ILLYRIA   225
'After the Libruni there come the Illyrian people. The Illyrii dwell by the sea as far as Chaonia, which lies opposite Corcyra, the island of Alcinous. There is situated the Greek city called Heraclea, with a harbour. There dwell the Lotus-eaters, barbarian peoples with the names Hierastamnae, Bulini, and Hylli who are neighbours of the Bulini.'
15.   For more on Arnold's vision of Greece and Illyria, see my 'Translation in Arnold's
Empedocles', Essays in Criticism 45, 4 (October, 1995), 301-23.
16.   For more on the Napoleonic rhetoric of 'liberation', see S. Woolf, Napoleon's Integration of
Europe (London, 1991), 14-17.
17.   Danica 1 (12 December 1835), 288, quoted in E. M. Despalatovic, Ljudevit Gaj and the
Illyrian Movement (New York and London, 1975), 89.
18.   Researches in Greece (London, 1814), i.
19.   Researches, iii-iv.
20.   Edward Daniel Clarke repeated the claim that the Albanians were more attractive and purer
than the Greeks: 'The Greeks are, for the most part, indolent and profligate, vain, obsequious, poor
and dirty. The Albanians are industrious, independent, honourable and hospitable. They are a
hardier and healthier race', Travels in Various Countries of Europe, Asia and Africa, 6 vols. (1810—
23), Vol. 4, 321. For the attractive simplicity of the Albanians, see also R. Chandler, Travels in
Greece or an Account of a Tour made at the Expense of the Society of Dilettanti (Oxford, 1776), 119.
21.   Researches, 251. It is interesting to note that the Albanians, in their northern and mountainous
terrain, are very close to the 'Aryan Model' of Greece which Martin Bernal argues was developed in
the early nineteenth century: see Black Athena, 2 vols. (1987-1991), Vol. 1, 190-330.
22.   Travels in the Ionian Isles, Albania, Thessaly, Macedonia etc During the Years 1812 and 1813
(London, 1815), 101.
23.   Travels in Albania and Other Provinces of Turkey in 1809 and 1810, new edn., 2 vols.
(London, 1855), Vol. 1, 137.
24.   See Hobhouse's map in A Journey through Albania and Other Provinces of Turkey in Europe
and Asia to Constantinople, during the years 1809-1810, 2 vols. (London: 1813), Vol. 1; see Leake's
map in Travels in Northern Greece, 4 vols. (London, 1835), Vol. 1.
25.   Childe Harold 11.406-14.
26.   C. Woodring, Politics in English Romantic Poetry (Cambridge, Mass., 1970), 156.
27.   R. Cronin, 'Mapping Childe Harold I and IF, Byron Journal 22 (1994), 27.
28.   Childe Harold 11.355-60.
29.   Byron's note to line 338, Childe Harold II.
30.   See my Shelley and Greece: Rethinking Romantic Hellenism (Basingstoke, 1997), chapter 6.
31.   For the link between the imagination and nationalism, see, for example, E. Hobsbawm and
T. Ranger (edd.),  The Invention of Tradition (Cambridge, 1983) and B. Anderson, Imagined
Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism (London, 1983).
32.   For one possibility of non-ethnic nationalism, see M. Tanner, 'Illyrianism and the Croatian
Quest for Statehood', Daedalus (Summer 1997), 47-62.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 12:53
ALBANIAN MYTHOLOGY 

by       
Jonathan Michael
         

Unknown Albania: Much more than guns and eagles   

Some Illyrian goddesses       
 

When I celebrated last year my birthday in Tirana, my friends Pandi and Vona offered me the head of a goddess. This is Dea, they said, she is the goddess of love.  How practical, I thought ... Well, Dea       

is  just the Latin word for goddess, and it is also due to the calm, introverted  traits of the little white head you can read everything into that Dea seems to  me like the representation of all female deities which were venerated in ancient  Illyria, a part of which is the modern Albania. So let me invite you to the world of Illyrian goddesses, which are quite unknown outside Albania and even inside the nowadays extremely patriarchal country. If you like, let’s have a cup of balm tea, which in German is called Melisse - you will see why...       

The Illyrians had gods and goddesses of their own; besides, Greek and Roman influences had their effect on Illyrian religiosity. So the well-known gods of ancient mythology found a new home in the land which is today Albania - a process which also took place in Germany -, they got acculturated to the new surroundings by undergoing sometimes radical changes.           

In my opinion, Illyria was a society of transition (as they also call modern Albania), a transition from matriarchy to patriarchy. Although fundamentally patriarchal, that society still conserved many matriarchal elements. So women were in a relatively strong position compared to Greece or Rome, and still today many Albanian girls are named after the Illyrian queen Teuta, which led the resistance against the Roman conquerors. This high importance of women in social life corresponded to a high presence of the female in religious life, in other words: goddesses. Those of you who are familiar with ancient mythology may find some old friends among them, whereas others are quite new and by now are not yet to be found in the ever growing pile of popular books about goddesses.       



Ilitia         

Ilitia or Eilitia, a daughter of Zeus and Hera, was sent by her mother to all women who gave birth, in order to help them through these difficult and decisive moments.  In the Albanian mosaic called Beauty of DurrĂ«s and elsewhere, she is represented as a young girl surrounded by an ocean of flowers and carrying a lighted torch symbolising the new-born child. Ilitia was the universal metaphor of survival, writes the Albanian archaeologist Moikom Zeqo, who discovered the identity of the goddess shown in the DurrĂ«s mosaic, the contrary of death and oblivion.   

Ilitia is the main representative of the Auras, goddesses of the air. They look like pagan angels with their wings on their shoulders, and they are all surrounded by flowers.       

According to Barbara Walker, Ilithyia or Eileithyia is the epithet of the Great Goddess in her function of the divine midwife. During birth, women prayed to her as the liberator who freed the child from the womb.         



Demeter         

The veneration of this well-known goddess of the earth, with her mystery plays in  Eleusis, was also quite common in Illyria. Albanologists claim that her name has to do with the Albanian word dhe, earth. Demeter, also called Damater, is  thus literally Mother Earth, what describes exactly her role. It also corresponds to the Illyrian myth of creation, where the Earth as the basis of life gives birth to everything.     

There is an inscription found near Plovdiv, Bulgaria, dedicated to Demeter, which, according to the albanologist Eqrem Çabej, can best be explained by means of the Albanian language derived from the Illyrian. It is a formula of Demeter’s cult, the cult of the Earth seen as universal mother, and means: Earth, hold me / hold on to me! I invite you to try out this part of spirituality rooted in ancient Albania. Pronounce or sing these magical words, if possible outside, in touch with Mother Earth. Use it as a prayer or a mantra, as a guideline of your meditation, in order to come back to earth from your spiritual flights or when you are stressed, in order to feel better that we all are a part of this globe  and to feel the security and power that emanates from the Earth. Be careful:  these words may have strong effects.           

The ritual words of Demeter’s cult are: DA DALEME.           



Melissa

We find the echo of matriarchy in the figure of Melissa and in the legend of the place of her union with the god of the sea, a maritime cult place, writes Zeqo about the foundation of the town of DurrĂ«s. Her worship was very popular among the Illyrian inhabitants of the town and its surroundings.     

The legend tells that in a place called Melisonion, a certain Melissa was seduced by the god of the sea, Redon in Illyrian, and then gave birth to Durrah, one of the legendary founders of the seaport. Melissa, according to Appian, was the daughter of Epidamn, the first founder of the town. However, Melissa is more than just a simple girl. Zeqo adds that Melissa is the Greek word for bee, an animal which figures on old Illyrian coins, and calls her a nymph. Here we must bear in mind the fact that during the process of ideological  patriarchalisation, female goddesses and divinities, in order to be replaced by  male gods, either became a negative image (like the holy snake, which represents  wisdom and the forces of the earth and which played a predominant role in  Illyrian mythology) or were downgraded and thus denied importance. According to Walker, Melissa or queen bee was the title of Aphrodite’s Highest Priestess.  Also the above mentioned Demeter was connected with bees, the honey-producing animals. Honey, a female-associated substance, besides its sweet and healing qualities, was considered as a substance for resurrection magic and is linked with rituals of many peoples’ mythologies. As for Aphrodite, originally she was not only the love goddess, but the threefold Great Goddess, the trinity of virgin, mother and old woman. She was said to be older than time and ruled the world according to matriarchal natural law.

These data throw a different light on the status of Melissa. We may even speculate about the Melisonion as being originally the place of a hieros gamos  (holy wedding) ritual, where the union of the Goddess and the sea god created a  town on the meeting point of land and sea, linking these two spheres.         

By  the way, Melissa tea, especially if you add honey, is a very healthy drink,  calming you down and having a healing effect on a large scale of symptoms.   



Diana     

Every year in early spring, the German town of Heidelberg celebrates in a symbolical way the victory of spring over the winter king, who has to die and is burnt, represented by a straw puppet. This event is called Summer Day reminding a time where people distinguished only between two seasons, the cold and the warm one. The same day, with the same name Summer Day, is also celebrated in Albania, especially in the Central Albanian town of Elbasan. Here, however, the celebration is hold in the honour of the goddess Diana.

Diana or Artemis was a goddess of highest importance in Illyria. Her adoration shows the still relatively strong matriarchal character of Illyrian society.  Near Elbasan there was a temple of Diana, marking the accomplished transition between Illyrian paganism in natural temples without walls and roofs (for example the Melisonion) and the classical Roman and Greek paganism with their built temples.       

It is said that Diana took over the functions of a local goddess of vegetation and fertility and the seasons. Originally, however, Diana was not only the pretty  virgin who goes hunting in the woods, but a representation of the Great Goddess,  too, the trinity of the moon virgin, the mother of all beings and the destroying  hunter.   



Ika 

It seems that Ika, a nymph or better river-related goddess with the attributes of Aphrodite, is the favorite goddess of many an Albanian nowadays, because in modern Albanian ika means I went away, I left... 

So before I leave you, I hope you enjoyed this little trip to ancient Illyria and some of the matriarchal roots of Albania. I invite you to join Ilitia, Demeter, Melissa, Diana and her colleagues in real Albania, the country which is  characterised on postcards as a beautiful nature, a powerful spirit. If you go there with an open heart, you will notice, too, that it is a land full of magic and full of surprises...           

Silke Blumbach           

Main sources:   

Barbara G. Walker, Das geheime Wissen der Frauen, MĂĽnchen: dtv, 41997   

Moikom Zeqo, Motive arkeologjike dhe shkrime tĂ« tjera, Tirana: 8     

NĂ«ntori, 1990.

Moikom Zeqo, Panteoni ilir, Tirana: Globus R, 1995. 

Civilizations the world over have developed and perpetuated myths as a means of explaining natural phenomena and the mysteries of life and death itself. Though widely unknown, Albanian Mythology holds an intriguing blend of tales and legends, most dating back to the pagan beliefs of Ancient Illyria. Others have incorporated more blends of fictional beings addressing the many complexities of morality, good, and evil. At the beginning reside the Illyrian divinities of nature, constructed by our ancestors as a means of comprehending the world which surrounded them.           

Many pan-cultural influences can be noted in some Albanian mythological characters. The lubi, --a monster  holding the head of a lion, body of a goat, and tail of a serpent—is to the  Greeks a chimera, while the ghostly kukuth holds similar powers to the  Slavic vila. Even a variation of the very English Tom Thumb can be noted as resting akin to the Albanian tale of Kacilmic. Such similarities also exist between Illyrian Gods and Goddesses with those of other cultures. The Illyrian Goddess Diana,  accompanied by a female goat  (alb. dhia goat),  was directly adopted by the Romans and holds a host of qualities to the Greek’s  Artemus. Other divinities remained highly local. Enji, the God of fire (Agni in India), Surd, the God of weather, and Bindus that of water, were all creations of Illyrian reverence to the awesome powers of nature. Goddesses such as Medauras and Prema were held as the supreme beings to heal ailments and spawn fertility. Strangely, unlike the mythology of others, the Albanian strain developed without the cosmogenic view of how the world was created, nor the eschatological prophecies of how the world would end, and remained firmly terrestrial and centered on those things that could be touched  or felt firsthand. The advent of Christian and Islamic lore brought belief in such deities to the end of their epoch in Albania and elsewhere. Myths such as  Persius saving Andromeda from the Hydra for the most part were replaced by  related religious ventures such as Saint George saving the princess of Sylene  from being sacrificed to the dragon. If not for the work of such astronomers as Ptolemy Llagos of Illyria, who placed such stories literally into the heavens through the naming of constellations, such mythology would be even less recalled today.         

Supplementing the acts of the Gods and Goddesses rests the mythology of the common man and the world?s evil they must face. Albanian Mythology is filled  with a variety of monsters, ranging from mighty giants called Baloz, to  tiny gnomes called Thopc who take delight in teasing people by turning  them into animals. In such tales live witches known as shtrigas which cast spells and the Syni I keq. Female nymphs known as oras, whose  glance can turn a man into stone, vampire-like lugats which live off  human blood, and karkanxhols—half-man, half-wolf , which hunt shepherds  under the full moon—are among the mythological personifications of evil in  which folklore and superstition abound. Indeed, though made famous by the Germanic minority of Wallachia who were subjugated to the horrors of ruler Vlad Dracul, then later by the author Bram Stoker, it was Lord Byron who first related tales to Western Europeans of vampires. These tales were inspired by the folklore and tales he encountered while visiting Southern Albania.       

To such vestiges of horror as lugats came the need for heroes with ingenious methods to combat them. Such heroes might themselves take the form of mere mortals, or those figures of mythology which were adhered to as good. Zanas, female mountain spirits which dwell near streams, have often been called upon to protect Albanian warriors. The deadly acts of kulshedras,  a fire-breathing serpent with seven heads that pollutes the water, air, and  soil, have for time immemorial been slain by drangues; human-like  warriors with wings under their arms. When lacking such mythical interventions, Albanians have taken it upon themselves to combat evil with assorted amulets, herbs, magical stones, rings, and through such practices as shooting at the moon to ward off wolves. It is still the belief that to spit in a fire is taboo, and that one will be petrified if he breaks an oath made on a pledge stone.     

Aspects of more modern and tangible calls for courage are highly represented in more recent forms of Albanian folklore, whereby the acts and deeds of real individuals become legendary, and take on almost mythical proportions. Typical  in Southern Albania are the heroics of noble sons, burri I dheut, who  took to battle against the overwhelming might of the Turk, as well as faithful  women, bukura e dheut, who chose to jump to their death off of cliffs,  their babies in arm, rather than be taken or even touched by the invader. The tales of Northern Albania generally focus on the common man’s battle with their Slavic neighbors. Songs and tales surround such characters as Muj, a shepherd who gains great powers by capturing three goats with golden horns, and in turn defeats the Slavs in battle. Upon his death, the enemy challenges him in his grave, from where he calls on his brother Halil to defeat them and return him to life. Other figures of mountain lore such as Oso Kuka, Marash  Uci, and the brave maiden Tringa have been immortalized in the works  of such writers as Gjergj Fishta, and represent battles for freedom and  survival which are unfortunately still very prominent in the lives of the  Albanian people to this day.     


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 12:55

Hajde qinu tash maxhupt e kqi, ju ka hi frika ne palce o grek e kqi

greets



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Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 17:39
zzzzzzzzzzzz

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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2005 at 07:01

your greeks some are pathetic and ultranaconalist , propagands but your culture and historu is bull sh*t

listen pathetic mans 

1) Albanians is the best RACE to Balkan (albs are white but sorry i am not racist) and LANGUAGE is different to world and this language are same identitet to Illyrians.

2) Albanet were contry in Illyrans and capital were Lissus (now Lezha to Albania) about Dardanet (today is Kosova,Macedonia,Nish,Leskovac ect) Kaonet (today is Korca, Chameria), Ardianet,Taulantet,Enkeljdet ect ect.

3)Albanians are ancient to Illyrans it is fact to much linguist and historans europian(from germans,italians,hungary,french,croats,austrians ect ect historians)

4) Albanians were cristians but convertet by othomant empires near 400 years (Today Albanians are 70% muslim and 30% cristians), you know the famous the Europe SKANDERBEG hi defandet near 40 years Vatikan and cristians people from europe from Othoman Empire.

5) Albanians are Illyrians and Illyrians were part of Pelazgian

 

and now you greek pathetic you are losser, you are full propoganda, ok see near 10 years reality for you history, greece are full full propaganda

 

greets from Kosova (Dardania)



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Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2005 at 07:07
AlbanianTriology,
I have reported you to the Moderators for inflammatory posts and for attempting to start a flame-war.

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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2005 at 09:44
Originally posted by AlbanianTriology

your greeks some are pathetic and ultranaconalist , propagands but your culture and historu is bull sh*t

Coming from a person who cant spell even the word "history" correct, we will take it as a compliment.

Ultranaconalist?? I have heard calling Greeks with too many names but...an ultranaconalist???  I dont think i can bear that.  

Unfortunately Iskenderani recently is nowhere to be found...you would become his favourite Jester with your new founded terms.

listen pathetic mans  

Hmmm the plural of the word 'man' is men but you have an excuse. No working brain there.

1) Albanians is the best RACE to Balkan

Whooppsss a racist remark!! ts ts ts bad boy!!

(albs are white but sorry i am not racist) 

Another sloppy remark with hints of racism. Since you do categorize people in whites and non-whites how is that you are not a racist.

and LANGUAGE is different to world and this language are same identitet to Illyrians.

Yeah since old times we do know that Languages are different ...but the word "identitet" is it albanian because i doubt it has anything to do with english.

2) Albanet were contry in Illyrans and capital were Lissus (now Lezha to Albania) about Dardanet (today is Kosova,Macedonia,Nish,Leskovac ect) Kaonet (today is Korca, Chameria), Ardianet,Taulantet,Enkeljdet ect ect.

All the list of -net you managed to fill your paragraph with, care to tell us what they are??

Anything to do maybe with Albanian Tv-stations or ISP providers?? Honestly this Albanet reminds highly an ISP provider. Maybe next time when you will learn how to use english adj you will be able to tell us what the #Albanet were contry in Illyrans # means since i dont think we have here mind-readers who could give us a clue here.

3)Albanians are ancient to Illyrans it is fact to much linguist and historans europian(from germans,italians,hungary,french,croats,austrians ect ect historians)

If it makes you feel better yeah we will go for that..no need for all these spasmodic attempts to convience us. Chill out!!

4) Albanians were cristians but convertet by othomant empires near 400 years (Today Albanians are 70% muslim and 30% cristians), you know the famous the Europe SKANDERBEG hi defandet near 40 years Vatikan and cristians people from europe from Othoman Empire.

English is your second language, isn't it? You don't have a first. How about putting that into proper syntax, form, and grammar so that I can at least understand what you are saying before I dismiss it?

5) Albanians are Illyrians and Illyrians were part of Pelazgian

and now you greek pathetic you are losser, you are full propoganda, ok see near 10 years reality for you history, greece are full full propaganda

Congrats!!! We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view, plus your whole post is the world's greatest proof of reincarnation.  I bet no one could get that dumb in just one lifetime.

greets from Kosova (Dardania)

In closing, I helpfully suggest that you support your local Search & Rescue Unit, and get lost.

Greets from Athens



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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2005 at 13:02

Aeolus

Don't cry guy sorry gay from hell-ass  

ok good luck  



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Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2005 at 13:42
Originally posted by AlbanianTriology

Aeolus

Don't cry guy sorry gay from hell-ass  

ok good luck  

Awww and this was supposed to be an insult and make me feel bad.

My friend i understand you have a certain disability, not only to write a proper sentence, as its obvious from your posts, but even to think of sth worth-while for someone to comment on.

You are so boring even a boomerang wouldn't come back to you

Its ok though, every now and then we need someone to amuse us in the forums!! You are doing a great job till now



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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.


Posted By: Belisarius
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2005 at 15:09
Amazing. I give him a 2/10 for originality. Hell-ass... what a riot. I give him a couple of days at most before he is banned.

Anyway, as I have said to this guy before, Albanians are a mix of the actual Albanian people and the native Illyrians. That is about as far as I can say to anyone so influenced by propaganda. However, as he said to me, I am just a know-nothing Filipino, which is not racist at all . Forgive me moderators, I am usually civil, but what he said to me was a severe personal attack.

Hey, where is Iskenderani anyway? I miss how he could take on five forumers at once.


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Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2005 at 16:28
copy and paste, copy and paste

Exboard people really get to me. As if that Serb kid wasnt enough...

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2005 at 16:29
Dear Phallanx
for the first of all, I want to be sure, whon you understand (or accept?? sorry for my english isn't an offensive mode) something:

1)
Dyqanxhi(storekeeper) isn't an albanian word. is an turkish word
Exist dyqan for 'Store, shop' in albanian, but is an word loan from turkish
list of translate
Store - Alb. sh*tore, dyqan
Storekeeper - Alb. sh*tes
Merchant - Alb. Tregtar

2)
You have write:
ill     serb    & nbsp;    alb          english
metu -  medju  -  ndermjet  -  between
ndermjet (Nder - Mjet) Nder is equivalent of the Inter in(Intermediary)
The correspondent word of metu in albanian is mjet (an archaic form)

3)
You have write
Illyrian-"barba"= (a swamp) Albo -"MOÇAL"
In albanian exist also another word for swamp soil "berrak" and "balta" for soil. I look an connection.

4)
ill.    serb    alb    eng
lugo     -  lug    - pelg   -  pool
In albanian exist the term Lugata (and this is an Archaic form) for pool.

5)
You have said
phallanx Posted: 15 July 2005 at 1:11am wrote:
]I never said names match, I said you use similar sounds such as SQ, SHQ, which are not common in any IE languages
CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA
ALBANIA=SHQIPERIA

"Shqiperia" is formed from the root "Shqip"
Shqip (or Shkip) initially is transformed in "Shqipni"(this form exist in the geg dialect) and last is transformed in Shqiperi (rhotacism n-->r, an common transformation in IE Languegges)
The sound SHQ and the Sound Q begin to entry in the common Albanian from XV siecle
they replace shk and kl
modern albanian "quhem" -- archaic albanian "kluem" BUZUKU 1455
the proces of transform the soud shq in shk is stil in ongoing. This is proved from the two form of the word 'slither'
Rreshkas and Rreshqas



I Wait with faith your conferm. Because I have same argument to discute for the place name and maritime terminology of Albanian

with respect
Neritan


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2005 at 18:51
neritan

OK, I suggest you go into the Greek Roman thread and read the last post in the locked Illyrian topic. Your friend AlbanianTriology actually struck gold. He presented an article from an Albanian site that actually supports half of everything I've written.


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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2005 at 20:28
I see a huge difference here.
Look at AlbanianTriology and then look at neritan.
One is full of anger and hate and the other keeps his cool and makes analyses.
I think that neritan is one that I would like to disagree with in these forums, whereas AlbanianTriology is one that I would rather see him out the door.


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CARRY NOTHING



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