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The most "humane" colonial empire?

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
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Topic: The most "humane" colonial empire?
Posted By: calvo
Subject: The most "humane" colonial empire?
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 18:28
Colonialism has never been charity and all imperialist powers had their fair share of atrocities, yet distinct imperialist policies did make a difference.
There were some imperial powers who offered an opportunity to the subject nations, others who allowed them a high degree of autonomy, and others who brutalized the conquered in the most sadistic manner.
Which of the above empires do you think were the most "humane"?



Replies:
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 19:24
Well it's such a tough pick. I can only say that I'm certain NOT the USSR or Tsarist Russia.


Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 19:33
Ain't fun

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I am a free donkey!


Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 19:58
They were all demons.

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Posted By: Dan Carkner
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 23:03
Ottomans, though some aspects were obviously pretty harsh.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 23:11
Believe me or not, because they have a problem of "image", I am pretty sure that at least in the Americas, they were the Spaniards. Not because there weren't cruelty, but because they assimilated the Natives. Most of the Native Americans of the hemisphere still live in the former lands of the Spanish Empire. That's not coincidence. Inside the Spanish Empire there was a battle between the bigots and the protectors of the Indians. Nothing like that happened with the other colonial powers of the Americas. And the result is clearly seen in the demography.
 
Pinguin


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Posted By: think
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 01:23
The Spaniards had no choice Pinguin. Do you really think that if Latin America recieved immigration with the likes of America that the Spaniards would have absorbed the native population. not likely.
The British did not wipe out the Maori either.

Oh yeh look how prosperous North America is, then look at the majority of Latin American nations.

Anyway the different colonial powers faced different circumstances. Latin America never got the type of immigration that North America recieved. Like Pinguin said, just look at their demographics. The Southern Area of Latin America is unusually European, perhaps maybe due to more immigration, pinguin. The Native population has only exploded within the last century Pingiun, so Latin America for the most part of its life was sparsely populated.

I didnt know the Ottoman were a "colonial" power, what did they colonise ?




Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 02:39
Carleton S Coon pointed out that in the South the Spanish faced civilised empires, while the French and English faced ,not savages, but nomadic lifestyles peoples.

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Posted By: Panther
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 02:57
I can't really pick just one. Though, i find myself agreeing with edgewaters, in regards to the Russians. A very darn tough question! I can't even narrow it down to three.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 03:30
Depends on your criteria of "humane". This could refer to level of autonomy given to natives, presence or absence of atrocities, ultimate levels of economic and political development which resulted from colonisation, etc etc.




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Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 03:37
I don't understand what the Tsarist Russia does on that list... during those two hundred years, Russia seldom saw expansion towards the east and concentrated more on south and north... as much as they could obviously.

I picked the Arabs however...


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Posted By: Patch
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 04:30
There has never been an English Empire so it is obviously the most humane.


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 04:50
Originally posted by think

The Spaniards had no choice Pinguin.


Nobody was asking why they were the way they were. When colonialists were humane or benefitted the locals in some way, it was almost always out of self-interest. The Spanish weren't particularly exceptional or unusual in that way.

Do you really think that if Latin America recieved immigration with the likes of America that the Spaniards would have absorbed the native population. not likely.


Probably, yes. By 1700 there were still more Spanish than English in the New World, but the English weren't living amongst the natives in quite the same way. They dwelt apart. Different era, different peoples, different forces behind settlement patterns - alot more complex than simple numbers. The Spaniards settled much earlier than the English, in an era that was more medieval in thinking - in which interbreeding was seen as a succesful method of pacification. Since this practice was already established in the area it would have been hard to stop in later eras regardless of numbers. When the English started settling in numbers it was a later era and they had new ideas about pacification, typified by things like the Plantations in Ireland.

I wouldn't venture to guess which was more humane. The Spanish were making an effort to build a feudal-style power bloc out of subject native populations and tried very hard to reform the practices of their settlers, even ushered in a concept of natural rights to try to protect the natives. The English had their own virtues as well; they accepted several native powers as allies and sovereign equals, such as the Iroqouis. The Spanish never did that. Of course - they had no choice about accepting them, they barely survived King Phillip, the Iroqouis could have wiped them out in the 1600s. But that doesn't concern me because it doesn't change the fact that they did accept them. Just like the reasons behind the mixed society the Spanish built don't change the fact that they did that.

These sorts of one-sided views are almost universally erroneous, that's why this question is such a tough choice. Everybody had their vices and virtues and it's really really hard to say anyone was more humanitarian than anyone else - they all perpetrated some horrors, but they all had their good side too.

That goes for the natives too.

The Native population has only exploded within the last century


What? No, not in Latin America. In places like Bolivia and Peru, they have never ceased to be the majority. In places like Mexico they have always been sizable minorities, and in certain sub-regions like the Yucatan Peninsula have always held a majority.

Plus, if you include mestizos, well the vast majority of Latin Americans have always been native to some degree. Up here, Metis are considered to be an aboriginal group, and they're the same thing as mestizos.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 11:17
Originally posted by think

The Spaniards had no choice Pinguin.
 
Yes, they had. They could have acted as the British, exterminating people and repopulating with Europeans or Africans, rather than trying to make them "good Christians". Spaniards actually put theirs effort into assimilation. It was not only theory like some think, but a matter of royal politics.
 
Originally posted by think

Do you really think that if Latin America recieved immigration with the likes of America that the Spaniards would have absorbed the native population. not likely.
 
That's false. Latin America received as many Europeans as North America during the last 500 years. However, our population is twice the one of the United States, though, and people intermarried a lot more without prejudices, so you don't see the same "kind of people" in the North and the South, at least you apply genetics. Besides, while Germanics when mainly to North Americans, the south was the destination of Mediterranean peoples.
 
Originally posted by think


The British did not wipe out the Maori either.
 
Maories where lucky.
Originally posted by think


Oh yeh look how prosperous North America is, then look at the majority of Latin American nations.
 
What that means? That you have to resort to genocide to build prosperous nations? Look how people live in the guettoes in North America, anyways. Even in Canada I made a tour for poverty and I found more that I would ever expected Embarrassed
 
Yes, Latin America is not rich at all, but in many places people is progressing. What is funny is that many foreigners come here and they thing they are in the wrong continent LOLLOL
 
Originally posted by think


Anyway the different colonial powers faced different circumstances. Latin America never got the type of immigration that North America recieved. Like Pinguin said, just look at their demographics.
 
That's part of the truth. I can agree on that.
 
Originally posted by think

The Southern Area of Latin America is unusually European, perhaps maybe due to more immigration, pinguin. The Native population has only exploded within the last century Pingiun, so Latin America for the most part of its life was sparsely populated.
 
Southern South America is European to certain degree; most people is European looking, indeed. However, we have more Amerindians in this part of the continent than in the whole North America, though, and there isn't a "racial barrier" between "us" and "them". Besides, our Amerindians look European LOLLOL. Many of them do.
And you know? Many of the whites people in here are the most fanatical indigenists, too.
 
Pinguin
 


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 11:27
Originally posted by edgewaters

...What? No, not in Latin America. In places like Bolivia and Peru, they have never ceased to be the majority. In places like Mexico they have always been sizable minorities, and in certain sub-regions like the Yucatan Peninsula have always held a majority.

Plus, if you include mestizos, well the vast majority of Latin Americans have always been native to some degree. Up here, Metis are considered to be an aboriginal group, and they're the same thing as mestizos.
 
That's true. Large parts of Mexico, Guatemala, Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia are still majoritary Amerindian and they have always been that way. In there you can listen Amerindian languages as Maya, Quechua and Aymara in a daily bases, as living and important tongues. No matter most of them are billingual.
 
In the rest, some regions are Mestizo and others are Castizo (Mestizo+European). What foreigners call the "Whites" of Latin America is the 35% of the people that is European and slighly Amerindian. "Whiteness" exist in Latin America, most people have that genetics, but is in admixture in varying degrees, mainly with Amerindian. In the Caribbean region, though, the main admixture is with Africans.
 
Metis are different to the average Latin America in culture. Metis have an hybrid culture rooted in colonial and amerindian traditions, and they behave as a subgrup inside an allien society. On the other hand, Latin Americans have a mainstream culture, based mainly a western culture with local nationalistic traditions that rooted in the Amerindians.
 
Pinguin
 


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Posted By: Patch
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 11:33
'I didnt know the Ottoman were a "colonial" power, what did they colonise ?'
 
 What are now Turkey, Greece, Serbia, Albania, Hungary, Romania, Croatia, Moldavia, southern Ukraine, Bulagria, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, Suadi Arabia, Iraq, Kuwait, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia and Morroco (hope I haven't missed anyone out - not sure about Yemen) were all at one time or other ruled by the Ottomans.  They were busy people.
There were also Turkish dynasties in medieval India though I don't know if they owed allegance to the Ottoman Sultan or not.


Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 13:09
Originally posted by Patch

There has never been an English Empire so it is obviously the most humane.
 
I meant by British. You should have known what I meant.
 
The "British" Empire was in reality more "English". Scotland, Ireland, and Wales were more like her "colonies" than part of the motherland; although since the 20th century, due to economic development as a unity all the British Isles developed a common identity.
Still, many Scots and Welsh still have an antagonistic attitude towards the English for past exploits.... with the Irish I wouldn't mention any more.


Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 13:28

I voted for the Romans.

Although they enslaved entire populations, over the centuries they made much of the conquered nations their own citizens not only by passport but also by heart.
Only the first imperial dynasty came from Italy itself, with all the remaining coming from the provinces; among them were Hispanics, africans, ilirians, arabs etc.
After the 1st century AD provincial recruits already made up the bulk of the legions and their loyalty to the empire was no less stronger than those recruited from the original city-state.
 
Distinct to the British and the French, the Romans consciously rejected apartheid; and distinct to the Spanish, they didn't impose their religion or language on anyone; but encouraged the natives from adopting Latin ways by offering them benefits.
 
In none of the colonial powers of the modern era did natives manage to rise to equal footing as the original conquerors as such.
 


Posted By: Patch
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 13:29
Originally posted by calvo

Originally posted by Patch

There has never been an English Empire so it is obviously the most humane.
 
I meant by British. You should have known what I meant.
 
The "British" Empire was in reality more "English". Scotland, Ireland, and Wales were more like her "colonies" than part of the motherland; although since the 20th century, due to economic development as a unity all the British Isles developed a common identity.
Still, many Scots and Welsh still have an antagonistic attitude towards the English for past exploits.... with the Irish I wouldn't mention any more.
 
I did know what you meant but it was still wrong in name and in fact.  Should we always refer to the Castellian empire as all the rest of Spain  are merely colonies of Castile?  As a matter of interest are you from Castile or one of the colonies?
 
Scotland was never a colony of England, I would suggest you do some research on the union of crowns in 1603 and the union of Parliments in 1707.
There were many of Scots, Irish and Welsh decent throughout the empire,  there were, in relation to the respective population sizes, more Scots administering the Empire than English.
The Royal Family is more Scottish & Welsh than English, there have been Scots, Welsh and Irish prime ministers.
If anything there was much more of a British identity during the imperial period than there is now.


Posted By: ChickenShoes
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 15:38
I can't believe the English are leading. Have we all but forgotten their treatment of the Africans, Aboriginies, and Canadian native peoples? Or even the brutal methods they used to supress the Indians in modern history.  At least in Rome you could become a legionnaire and/or a citizen with Roman rights after a period of time, similar to what calvo said. I'm not keen on the Arab or the Ottomans but weren't they somewhat tolerant and respectful of other cultures?

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It is not enough that I succeed - everyone else must fail


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 15:42
Originally posted by ChickenShoes

I can't believe the English are leading. Have we all but forgotten their treatment of the Africans, Aboriginies, and Canadian native peoples? Or even the brutal methods they used to supress the Indians in modern history...
 
LOLLOL
 
Absolutely. English were the most brutal colonial power of all. Theirs genocides account by tens of millions and they were the main source of inspiration for the hollocaust of the Nazis.
 
Not only Africans and Amerindian suffered, though. They affected all the people around the planet. They were also the starters of the international drug trade.
 
Curious "humane" people.
 
I preffer Irish people, indeed.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 16:36
Originally posted by pinguin

Absolutely. English were the most brutal colonial power of all. Theirs genocides account by tens of millions and they were the main source of inspiration for the hollocaust of the Nazis.


Well, I think you're going way overboard, I don't see how the Nazis were inspired by British colonialism. The British were generally happy to have "hewers of wood and drawers of water", they just tended to react with brutality to uprisings. But the Jews weren't exactly forming mobs and throwing stones or anything. They were just like other Germans.

Not only Africans and Amerindian suffered, though. They affected all the people around the planet.


Well that just shows the size of their empire, not how intense their brutality was. If France had an empire as big as Britain, they would have affected more populations with colonial brutality as well.

They were also the starters of the international drug trade.


Oh, hardly. Drugs have been traded across long distances since time immemorial. One of the most ancient urban centres in the Americas, Caral in Peru, actually coalesced because of a trade in drugs which caused it to become a center of trade in other things that could be exchanged for drugs.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 16:44

(1) British are quoted in Hitler "mein kampf" as a source of inspiration. The genocide of Native Americans was the inspiration for ethnic cleaning in Europe. The same British colonial idea of different "races" or castes of people.

(2) Yes, France show its brutality as well, particularly in Haiti.

(3) International drug trade was started by Britain when forced the entrance of oppium to China after the war of the same name.
 
(4) Drugs have been used in the Americas since ancient times for shamanism, as in Chavin for example. Not for hippism or drug addiction. There is a huge difference in there. Besides, chewing a coca leave is hardly the same that sniff a row of cocaine Big%20smile
 
Pinguin
 


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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 16:57
Originally posted by pinguin

Absolutely. English were the most brutal colonial power of all. Theirs genocides account by tens of millions and they were the main source of inspiration for the hollocaust of the Nazis.
 
 
Hitler might have got some of his ideas from the British Empire, but equating the exploits of the British Empire to the holocaust is going overboard.
 
The British did invent the concept of the "White Race" that we talk about so much of today.
Curiously, prior to the 19th century the concept of a "White Race" didn't exist, and it was invented in the Victorian Imperial to separate the colonising nations to the colonised. It was a way to use biological explanation to justify a nation's dominance.
 
"White" doesn't equate to "Caucasoid", because the latter, as an anthropological term, also includes Middle-Easterners, North Africans, Indians and South Asians, and even Sudanese and Ethiopians to some extent...
The concept that "White is superior" is a very recent concept and only came into being after the 1800s, thanks to British colonialism.
 
Hitler took what was a common social practice in British colonies and built an even more radical theory based on the "Aryan Race".
 
In fact, I really wish that countries like the USA could stop using "White" and "non-White" as ethnic classification, because "Whiteness" was a victorian political race, rather than anything with any biological, anthropological, or even cultural significance.
 


Posted By: The_Jackal_God
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 19:03
i went with the french, considering their extensive building of schools and the goal of building up native intellegentsia.

they saw themselves not as frenchifying but rather as modernizing, and truth be told, they should've been given more time.

i think france's record in africa is much better than her colleagues.  


Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 21:40
Originally posted by pinguin

Absolutely. English were the most brutal colonial power of all. Theirs genocides account by tens of millions and they were the main source of inspiration for the hollocaust of the Nazis.
 
But wait a minute, didn't all the other Empires fight really really hard to keep their empires when they didn't have the power to, while the British at the end of WWII chose to withdraw on the whole quite peacefully? That sounds rather enlightened. The British crafted their imperial policy to suit realities, unlike a lot of other powers who would do it for the pomp of being called an empire.
 
And also, who says the British were worse? Overall, they ran their empire more humanely than say, the Belgians.
 
Not only that, many british colonies today are among the most successful in the world. The ones which were most receptive to British ideas and culture are generally the ones who have developed best.
 
And also, where is your proof the Nazis copied the British? Seems to be that if the Nazis wanted to copy a contemporary in setting up concentration camps, they would need only look to the Soviet gulags. Apart from that, the Nazis were sufficiently hateful to come up with a range of original ideas all on their own. Sure, Hitler might admire the Brits for building an empire, but Hitler admired everything which was an example of strength and power, it doesn't mean he copied them in everything. I bet you Hitler thought the Romans were pretty great too, shall we also blame the Roman Empire for the holocaust?
 
Originally posted by pinguin

(3) International drug trade was started by Britain when forced the entrance of oppium to China after the war of the same name.
 
The drug trade flourished in many parts of the world long before the British showed up. India had a particularly rich drug trade. People in both India and China had been taking opium long before the British showed up. Only difference was that the British took control of India, and India had opium of a far superior quality to that of China. Back then, of course, "drugs" was not a word with such a negative connotation as today. It was just another commodity like sugar, or coffee or any range of Indian spices.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

(4) Drugs have been used in the Americas since ancient times for shamanism, as in Chavin for example. Not for hippism or drug addiction. There is a huge difference in there. Besides, chewing a coca leave is hardly the same that sniff a row of cocaine Big%20smile
 
Well if you know what the Payati (I think I spelt it wrong) cactus does, you would have to conclude the Native Americans were using drugs to have psychadelic experiences just like other people in the world. The aim of opium wasn't to be a hippy or an addict either, it was recreation.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 22:37
Originally posted by The_Jackal_God

i went with the french, considering their extensive building of schools and the goal of building up native intellegentsia.

they saw themselves not as frenchifying but rather as modernizing, and truth be told, they should've been given more time.

i think france's record in africa is much better than her colleagues.  
 
France? Please, France had a terrible humanitarian record in Haiti


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 22:50
Originally posted by Constantine XI

...
 And also, who says the British were worse? Overall, they ran their empire more humanely than say, the Belgians.
 
Perhaps a little bit more human, but the scale of the British empire was bigger. Britain should accept its past and not pretend it was a perfect nation, because it wasn't.
 
 
Originally posted by Constantine XI

...
Not only that, many british colonies today are among the most successful in the world. The ones which were most receptive to British ideas and culture are generally the ones who have developed best.
 
As I say before, economical success doen't erase the genocides of the past. Besides Britain is lagging with respect to Asia, today. Morality is not measured in dollars or pounds.
 
  
Originally posted by Constantine XI

...
And also, where is your proof the Nazis copied the British? Seems to be that if the Nazis wanted to copy a contemporary in setting up concentration camps, they would need only look to the Soviet gulags. Apart from that, the Nazis were sufficiently hateful to come up with a range of original ideas all on their own. Sure, Hitler might admire the Brits for building an empire, but Hitler admired everything which was an example of strength and power, it doesn't mean he copied them in everything. I bet you Hitler thought the Romans were pretty great too, shall we also blame the Roman Empire for the holocaust?
 
 
Just the law of action and reaction. Europe spread hate around the world, Europe paid for it with its own homegrown monster: Hitler.
 
 
Originally posted by Constantine XI

... 
 
Well if you know what the Payati (I think I spelt it wrong) cactus does, you would have to conclude the Native Americans were using drugs to have psychadelic experiences just like other people in the world. The aim of opium wasn't to be a hippy or an addict either, it was recreation.
 
Yeap! Recreation against the will of the Emperor of China. What an humilliation for the Celestial Empire!!!
 
With respect to drugs in the Native Americans, some of them have them and used,mostly for ritual purposses. It were the hippies, though, with theirs revolution of the flowers, which created a new market for drugs worldwide.
 
Remember Eric Clampton singing "Cocaine"?
 
Well, the criminals of Colombia listened LOLLOL
 
It is no mystery that one of the first drugs lords loved John Lennon, do you guess why? Big%20smile
 
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: The_Jackal_God
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 23:03
heh, europe paying for hitler...and stalin.

yes, france had a bleak spot on its history with the case of Haiti. and i don't like how they suppressed syrian indepedence in 1922.

but overall, in comparison with the two other major colonizers, the British and the English, they come out on top, a little ahead of the Spanish, and way ahead of the English. 


Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 23:12
Originally posted by pinguin

Perhaps a little bit more human, but the scale of the British empire was bigger. Britain should accept its past and not pretend it was a perfect nation, because it wasn't.
Size of Empire is an indication of power, not morality. And the British were sometimes very harsh (e.g. Tasmania) and at other times their invasions were among the least bloody and cruel (e.g. mainland Australia). Just as Britain's Empire was large, so its imperial experience was varied as it spanned every continent and many centuries. One bad experience in one part of the world at one time doesnt mean the whole empire was bad everywhere all the time.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

As I say before, economical success doen't erase the genocides of the past. Besides Britain is lagging with respect to Asia, today. Morality is not measured in dollars or pounds.
 
Personally I would feel better knowing my ancestral society was destroyed if the invaders replaced it with something that today's people benefit from today. For example, most West Europeans feel pretty good about Rome. It's public baths, roads, aquaducts and city organisation gave society a push in the right direction - and today we benefit from that. The Romans were nasty to be sure, raping and killing on a massive scale. But unlike the Vikings, for example, they made a much more positive impact in the long term. So I think it does matter if some long term benefit came out of an invasion, as opposed to if a broken society was not replaced with any form of improvement.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

Just the law of action and reaction. Europe spread hate around the world, Europe paid for it with its own homegrown monster: Hitler.
 
Sorry buddy but you need to provide more evidence than that. I don't believe in karma so you will have to provide historical evidence to show that overseas colonisation resulted in Hitler launching WWII. Saying "it happened because they deserved it" is not proper history.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

Yeap! Recreation against the will of the Emperor of China. What an humilliation for the Celestial Empire!!!
 
With respect to drugs in the Native Americans, some of them have them and used,mostly for ritual purposses. It were the hippies, though, with theirs revolution of the flowers, which created a new market for drugs worldwide.
 
Remember Eric Clampton singing "Cocaine"?
 
Well, the criminals of Colombia listened LOLLOL
 
It is no mystery that one of the first drugs lords loved John Lennon, do you guess why? Big%20smile
 
 
LOL
 
Well it's true that the 60s was really the age in which a strong drug culture began to develop, mostly with the emergence of new types of drugs in the Western world. Previously, opium, tobacco and alcohol had been most people's drug of choice - and opium wasn't even that common in the West. With the spread of marijuana and new chemical based drugs, partiers, layabouts, hippies and celebrities had a whole new world of fun little treats to help them get off their tits. Compared to what is around today, they actually seem quite tame.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 23:59
Originally posted by Constantine XI

..
Size of Empire is an indication of power, not morality. And the British were sometimes very harsh (e.g. Tasmania) and at other times their invasions were among the least bloody and cruel (e.g. mainland Australia). Just as Britain's Empire was large, so its imperial experience was varied as it spanned every continent and many centuries. One bad experience in one part of the world at one time doesnt mean the whole empire was bad everywhere all the time.
.
 
I can agree on that. Even more, it seem Britain tried to correct itself while time passed, which is something possitive in its favor.
 
Originally posted by Constantine XI

..
 
Personally I would feel better knowing my ancestral society was destroyed if the invaders replaced it with something that today's people benefit from today. For example, most West Europeans feel pretty good about Rome. It's public baths, roads, aquaducts and city organisation gave society a push in the right direction - and today we benefit from that. The Romans were nasty to be sure, raping and killing on a massive scale. But unlike the Vikings, for example, they made a much more positive impact in the long term. So I think it does matter if some long term benefit came out of an invasion, as opposed to if a broken society was not replaced with any form of improvement.
.
 
Viking made a possitive contribution in Britain as well. At least that's what the history channel said once LOL
 
 
Originally posted by Constantine XI

.. 
Sorry buddy but you need to provide more evidence than that. I don't believe in karma so you will have to provide historical evidence to show that overseas colonisation resulted in Hitler launching WWII. Saying "it happened because they deserved it" is not proper history.
 
 
Not because it was predestined, or Karma at all. Just because the success of British colonization awake envy in Germans, so they tried to copy the methods.... Nazis didn't read the book of contemporary Britain, though, but of its origins as a pirate, genocide and slave trading nation of centuries already gone.
 
 
Originally posted by Constantine XI

..
Well it's true that the 60s was really the age in which a strong drug culture began to develop, mostly with the emergence of new types of drugs in the Western world. Previously, opium, tobacco and alcohol had been most people's drug of choice - and opium wasn't even that common in the West. With the spread of marijuana and new chemical based drugs, partiers, layabouts, hippies and celebrities had a whole new world of fun little treats to help them get off their tits. Compared to what is around today, they actually seem quite tame.
 
It was the blessing of drugs what matters. The baby boomer generation was the main promoter of drug consumption ever.
 
Pinguin
 
 


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Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 00:57
Originally posted by pinguin

Perhaps a little bit more human, but the scale of the British empire was bigger. Britain should accept its past and not pretend it was a perfect nation, because it wasn't.


Well that would presume that they didn't accept their past and do pretend they are a perfect nation, which is hardly the case at all. British introspection over the colonial period is extremely well-documented and is also a part of the common culture and popular perceptions.

Just like most of the other ex-colonial powers.
Morality is not measured in dollars or pounds.


I'll agree with you there. The modern success or lack thereof of former colonies doesn't tell us anything about how brutal or humane the empires who founded them were. South Africa is probably the wealthiest of all African nations, and yet the history there is chock full of brutality. New Guinea, on the other hand, experienced very little or no brutality but today is quite poor.

Recreation against the will of the Emperor of China. What an humilliation for the Celestial Empire!!!


Oh well then, that's not brutality, just one empire humiliating another empire.

It were the hippies, though, with theirs revolution of the flowers, which created a new market for drugs worldwide.


Common misconception. Drugs were actually far more widely available and far more widely used before WW1 than during the Sixties (in the US, prior to the Harrison Narcotic Act of 1914). You could get diacetyl morphine (heroin) injection kits at the general store or pharmacy, and people did.


Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 01:19
Originally posted by pinguin

Not because it was predestined, or Karma at all. Just because the success of British colonization awake envy in Germans, so they tried to copy the methods.... Nazis didn't read the book of contemporary Britain, though, but of its origins as a pirate, genocide and slave trading nation of centuries already gone.
I do see what you are saying, but what I am searching for is proof. Many nations in Europe had large empires and became wealthy because of them, Britain's was simply the most magnificent in scale. As I was saying earlier, the Nazis valued anything which demonstrated power, lack of compromise and a dauntless belief in the rightness of one's own nation of people. So the Nazis looked to any empire which was an example of that. Britain was one, Rome another, the Holy Roman Empire at its height another. So what makes you think that it was specifically Britain that inspired Nazi ideals?
 
You are saying there is a process here. At the beginning of the process, Britain carves out an empire using some immoral methods. Then, Nazis take note of those methods and develop them further. Finally, Nazis apply these super methods and the result is WWII and all that follows. Therefore, Britain causes the Nazis to cause WWII.
 
I think this is flawed. Firstly, you need to provide a direct link showing Britain's policy influencing Nazi policy, e.g. Britain did something, a Nazi writer took note of it, the Nazis started doing it. Secondly, you need to guarantee the Nazis would not have done all the awful things they did if Britain never existed. I personally think they would have gone right ahead, used their imaginations and still come up with awful methods.


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Posted By: Tar Szerénd
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 01:19

What about the concentration camps for Boers in South-Africa?



Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 01:22
Originally posted by Tar Szerénd

What about the concentration camps for Boers in South-Africa?

 
It is possible the Nazis picked up on that. It's also possible they copied concentration camps from the USSR modelled on the Siberian gulags. Until someone presents direct evidence linking one to the other, all we have is speculation, which isn't proof.


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Posted By: Patch
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 04:23
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by Tar Szerénd

What about the concentration camps for Boers in South-Africa?

 
It is possible the Nazis picked up on that. It's also possible they copied concentration camps from the USSR modelled on the Siberian gulags. Until someone presents direct evidence linking one to the other, all we have is speculation, which isn't proof.
 
The Germans were running death camps (not concentration camps - there is a big difference) in Namidia before ww1.  The Herero Genocide in what was then German South West Africa was also characterised by the German attention to detail - they deligently recorded each death, again another characteristic about the Holocaust. 
 
Concentration camps where also used in the 1890s in Cuba by the Castilians so not a British invention.


Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 06:08

I m split between the Ottoman and the British empires,Had not Britain behaved the way it did in africa (specially in Kenia) I would have given my vote to Britain but in the ottoman empire there was quite an equal treatment of all peoples thats why it stands out as an example.Very hard ,i m not sure,i think that colonianism in itself is evil,and setting to colonise is settin to kill people,burn civilisations,rape cultures,enslave and rip other human being of dignity and belonging,and above all colonising is taking away from people the freedom they enjoy within their comunity to which they identify themselves.For me all colonial powers are equaly guillty and equaly inhumane.

 

I would though like to point out Belgium in the Congo as the worst example of inhumanity in human history.



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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 06:15
By the way my vote did not go to any of them,for the reason that is something wrong with the way the question is put ( looks like the guy is journalist or somethingErmm) Is asking who is the most humane as if the colonial empires were in some sort of competition on who would behave most humanly,and now we the spectators of history give our vote to whom we think is the most humane,is wrong,in this way we give credit to an particular colonial empire for being the least cruel,and the least inhumane,
 
I sugest the Poll question be changed in to ,Which empire do you think was the most INHUMANE.And then i would cast my vote.
 
Ps.i did not vote in the current poll.


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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 06:47
 
Originally posted by pinguin

(1) British are quoted in Hitler "mein kampf" as a source of inspiration. The genocide of Native Americans was the inspiration for ethnic cleaning in Europe. The same British colonial idea of different "races" or castes of people.

a) Hitler admired the British for their achievements. As anyone would, really.
b) the genocide of native Americans was not done by Britons or for that matter Englishmen, but by Americans of all sorts of different ancestries. In the timespans and areas of North America controlled by Britain, native Americans were treated far, far better than those in the US. Which for example is why the Blackfeet found Canada a convenient refuge, and is one of the reasons for the American war of independence in the first place.
c) the concept of different 'races' or castes' of people is present in all civilisations since time immemorial, and even in pre-civilised hunter-gatherer communities. To call the idea 'British' is simply lunatic.
(2) Yes, France show its brutality as well, particularly in Haiti.
(3) International drug trade was started by Britain when forced the entrance of oppium to China after the war of the same name.
That's as daft as saying the British invented racism. Granted Britain fought the opium wars, but to say that they invented the drug trade is just stupid. How do you think the Chinese got the habit in the first place?
 
(4) Drugs have been used in the Americas since ancient times for shamanism, as in Chavin for example. Not for hippism or drug addiction. There is a huge difference in there. Besides, chewing a coca leave is hardly the same that sniff a row of cocaine Big%20smile
Well, no. And smoking a joint or sniffing glue or injecting heroin or swallowing ecstasy tablets are hardly the same either.
 
I suppose you believe the British were responsible for all of those too?
 
Pinguin
 


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 07:10
Originally posted by gcle2003

 
....
 
I suppose you believe the British were responsible for all of those too?
 
If you believe in the Black Legend of Britain (like most Hispanics do LOL), then of course Britain is guilty of all the evil of modern world Big%20smile. No doubt about it.
 
 


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Posted By: aslanlar
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 08:24
Originally posted by Patch

There has never been an English Empire so it is obviously the most humane.

The Brittish Empire? So the genocide of the Australian Aboriginals didn't occur did it?

*woops, i felt the urge to reply before i read the second page, my bad*


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"The league is alright when sparrows dispute but it can do little when eagles argue" -Mussolini


Posted By: Peteratwar
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 08:28
Well as any coin has the opposite side, I think Britain will claim all the good things as well


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 08:32
 
Originally posted by calvo

Originally posted by pinguin

Absolutely. English were the most brutal colonial power of all. Theirs genocides account by tens of millions and they were the main source of inspiration for the hollocaust of the Nazis.
 
 
Hitler might have got some of his ideas from the British Empire, but equating the exploits of the British Empire to the holocaust is going overboard.
 
The British did invent the concept of the "White Race" that we talk about so much of today.
Curiously, prior to the 19th century the concept of a "White Race" didn't exist, and it was invented in the Victorian Imperial to separate the colonising nations to the colonised. It was a way to use biological explanation to justify a nation's dominance.
That's just fundamentally untrue. Apart from the fact that the ancient Greeks identified a white race (in Xenophon for example), which they considered inferior and to which they didn't belong, Immanuel Kant referred to a white race in 1775, and in 1758 Linnaeus identified the 'white race' as the subspecies homo sapiens europaeus.
 
Are you really going to claim that Victoria reigned in the eighteenth century, and that Linnaeus and Kant were British? (Not that anything would surprise me.)
 
"White" doesn't equate to "Caucasoid", because the latter, as an anthropological term, also includes Middle-Easterners, North Africans, Indians and South Asians, and even Sudanese and Ethiopians to some extent...
The concept that "White is superior" is a very recent concept and only came into being after the 1800s, thanks to British colonialism.
Pure nonsense and racist to boot.
 
Hitler took what was a common social practice in British colonies and built an even more radical theory based on the "Aryan Race".
 
In fact, I really wish that countries like the USA could stop using "White" and "non-White" as ethnic classification, because "Whiteness" was a victorian political race, rather than anything with any biological, anthropological, or even cultural significance.
 
Apart from your wildly misinformed use of the word 'Victorian' that's a consummation devoutly to be wished. So it would be for people like you to go by historical facts rather than political propaganda.
 


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Posted By: Lotus
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 08:34
Originally posted by pinguin

The genocide of Native Americans was the inspiration for ethnic cleaning in Europe.

 

I thought the royal proclamation of 1763 was supposed to prevent westward expansion of the colonies and give the native peoples of north America inherent rights to their lands.

Originally posted by pinguin

Perhaps a little bit more human, but the scale of the British empire was bigger. Britain should accept its past and not pretend it was a perfect nation, because it wasn't.

I don’t think there is any danger of Britain not accepting its past atrocities, in the last month I have seen two programmes detailing some of the nastier parts of Britain’s involvement of the slave trade, and last night a programme highlighted the lack of any help to the Irish during the potato famine.



Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 08:48
 
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Constantine XI

...
 And also, who says the British were worse? Overall, they ran their empire more humanely than say, the Belgians.
 
Perhaps a little bit more human, but the scale of the British empire was bigger. Britain should accept its past and not pretend it was a perfect nation, because it wasn't.
No-one claims the British were perfect. However, that doesn't justify hurling wildly unjustified allegations around.
 
 
Originally posted by Constantine XI

...
Not only that, many british colonies today are among the most successful in the world. The ones which were most receptive to British ideas and culture are generally the ones who have developed best.
 
As I say before, economical success doen't erase the genocides of the past. Besides Britain is lagging with respect to Asia, today. Morality is not measured in dollars or pounds.
I don't know what you mean by 'lagging'. Can you tell me a country with a smaller population that has a bigger economy? That 60 million Britons make a smaller economy than a billion and a half Chinese says nothing about anything except the number of people.
 
Figures vary a bit from source to source, but the only Asian countries with comparable or greater GDP per capita are Qatar and Hong Kong (if you count it as a separate country). Both of course former British colonies (de facto).
 
  
Originally posted by Constantine XI

...
And also, where is your proof the Nazis copied the British? Seems to be that if the Nazis wanted to copy a contemporary in setting up concentration camps, they would need only look to the Soviet gulags. Apart from that, the Nazis were sufficiently hateful to come up with a range of original ideas all on their own. Sure, Hitler might admire the Brits for building an empire, but Hitler admired everything which was an example of strength and power, it doesn't mean he copied them in everything. I bet you Hitler thought the Romans were pretty great too, shall we also blame the Roman Empire for the holocaust?
 
 
Just the law of action and reaction. Europe spread hate around the world, Europe paid for it with its own homegrown monster: Hitler.
 
 
Originally posted by Constantine XI

... 
 
Well if you know what the Payati (I think I spelt it wrong) cactus does, you would have to conclude the Native Americans were using drugs to have psychadelic experiences just like other people in the world. The aim of opium wasn't to be a hippy or an addict either, it was recreation.
 
Yeap! Recreation against the will of the Emperor of China. What an humilliation for the Celestial Empire!!!
 
With respect to drugs in the Native Americans, some of them have them and used,mostly for ritual purposses. It were the hippies, though, with theirs revolution of the flowers, which created a new market for drugs worldwide.
It may I suppose have been a new market segment, but the idea that it provided the first such market is simply ridiculous.
 
Remember Eric Clampton singing "Cocaine"?
 
Well, the criminals of Colombia listened LOLLOL
 
It is no mystery that one of the first drugs lords loved John Lennon, do you guess why? Big%20smile
  
 
Who the criminal elements of the drug trade really love are the people who make it illegal. That's why they put so much money into ensuring anti-drug politicians stay in power.


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Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 09:15
Gcle2003, the point you make about population defining the size of economy is not entirely correct, some nations,  such as Denmark and Sweden have very large economies with small populations, due in no large part to their access to natural resources. The focus of the economy and the resources available to the economy is probably more important than the population available for it, even though population is still of course important.

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Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 10:03
That doesn't explain Ireland though - F all resources, F all population.

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Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 10:25
Ah but the focus of the economy is manufacturing of high value goods, tax breaks for big companies and high foreign investment..So Ireland actually furthers my point. I didn't want to mention it, as I have been described as quite eurocentric in my outlook, and didnt want to make myself look even worse

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Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 10:48
The british today have a good economy which they inherit from thier colonial past.The most of the so called ( developing or untill a few years ago the prefered 3d world)  countrys have had only the last 50 years to builld from zero an economy,and to create an educated population,left widely ignorant from being ruled by colonial masters.So to use the population of Britain to somehow justify an idea that the British are better then say the Chinese or the Indians because they can rival their economies with a much smaller population number is a shame,and to be said by an inteligent person i think is a provocation.The fact is that an Educated Chinese or Indian is as much capable to survive in the globalised world with fair trade and oportunities as is an educated British.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Back to the topic.As i said before the colonial empires should be ashamed of their past,and we should vote on who was the mos inhumane rather then who was the most humane.Voting on who was the most humane among the most inhumane is pointless,the colonial past is the most inhumane chapter in human history,and there is no room for CNN,or BBC style Polles on who was the most humane.Is true that the British where priding themselves on their human rights record,but that was because they were the best in hiding their crimes aswell.Just check their crimes against the Kenian people held in concentration camps that rival the ones of the NAZIS.
 
My vote on the most inhumane colonial empire Goes to Belgium and their barbaric behaviour in the Congo.


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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 15:37
Originally posted by HEROI

....Is true that the British where priding themselves on their human rights record,but that was because they were the best in hiding their crimes aswell.Just check their crimes against the Kenian people held in concentration camps that rival the ones of the NAZIS.
 
My vote on the most inhumane colonial empire Goes to Belgium and their barbaric behaviour in the Congo.
 
Absolutely.
 
Britain has a shameful past. It is just theirs control of the media what prevent the world to know the magnitude of theirs historical crimes.
Hitler admired them very much... no kidding LOL
 
Pinguin
 
 


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Posted By: Serge L
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 17:08
I voted Romans because they eventually had colonized people to become Roman citizens, which was pretty much unusual, if not impossible, with later colonizers.

... that , and i could not really allow the Brits to lead this ranking Wink


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 18:05
They don't, the English do ;)

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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 18:52
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by pinguin

The concept that "White is superior" is a very recent concept and only came into being after the 1800s, thanks to British colonialism.
Pure nonsense and racist to boot.


Well he's not 100% wrong actually. Prior to Darwin and a few earlier sentiments such as Johann Friedrich Blumenbach, biology was not seen as the reason behind relative levels of advancement - religion and cultural aspects, particularly appeals to a notion of being cultural inheiritors of Rome, were the favoured explanations. Nations which were not Christian and held no particular connection to Rome were therefore seen as inferior.

But he's totally wrong in attributing the biological explanation solely to the English - who always sourced the strength of their culture in two things, the fact of being an island and an islander mentality, and in being the product of a series of invasion by diverse peoples. The English took up the banner of race after Darwin (witness Cecil Rhodes for instance), but no more than anyone else.


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 19:03
Hmm so true, the 'descendants of warriors' myth, which dissapeared off the Radar real fast. Seems that as far as the Vikings is concerned, it was bollucks too, theose mighty warrious of empire have to make do with just a Danish farmer for a grand dad.

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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 19:13
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by pinguin

The concept that "White is superior" is a very recent concept and only came into being after the 1800s, thanks to British colonialism.
Pure nonsense and racist to boot.


Well he's not 100% wrong actually. Prior to Darwin and a few earlier sentiments such as Johann Friedrich Blumenbach, biology was not seen as the reason behind relative levels of advancement - religion and cultural aspects, particularly appeals to a notion of being cultural inheiritors of Rome, were the favoured explanations. Nations which were not Christian and held no particular connection to Rome were therefore seen as inferior.

But he's totally wrong in attributing the biological explanation solely to the English - who always sourced the strength of their culture in two things, the fact of being an island and an islander mentality, and in being the product of a series of invasion by diverse peoples. The English took up the banner of race after Darwin (witness Cecil Rhodes for instance), but no more than anyone else.
 
Edgewaters,
 the British might not have invented this idea of white supremacism, but if you've look around the world, all the countries that are (or had been) most obsessed with "whiteness" are the former British colonies: USA, Australia, Canada.....; while in other countries the concept of "whiteness" as an ethnicity is considerably weaker.
In Hispanic and Arab countries, for example, "white" is usually a means to describe how one looks, rather than an ethnic classification; although I wouldn't say that Hispanics and Arabs are necessarily less racist on a personal level than the British.
 
Meanwhile I have to admit that in Britain itself society is not so and much more tolerant.
 
You might argue that concept of the "one-drop" rule to define whiteness was an American, south-africa, or an Australain invention..., but all these countries happened to be British colonies, and that says something about the colonial legacy.
 
While in Spanish, Portuguese, and French, different terms are used to define people of distinct proportions of racial mix, while in English such terms didn't even exist, which says a lot about the colonial attitude towards the subject peoples. 
 
Of course, British society today has nothing to do with the colonial mentality of the British Empire, and one admirable element is the ability to criticise one's own past.
 
gcle2003,
I could have carried on the debate with you, but I refuse to discuss history with anyone who directs personal insults to other members of the forum. No matter how deep one's knowledge might be in a certain topic, arrogance and condescending attitude is not an excuse.
I wouldn't place myself on the same level. Wink


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 19:26
while in English such terms didn't even exist


Not strictly true, the British invented the term 'Eurasian' to refer to people of mixed Indian/European ancestry (its original meaning, before the Americans hijacked it), and adopted mulatto for the Afro/euro mix. What they didn't have was the complex caste system that the French and to a much lesser extent, the Spanish and Portuges had. The British approach was very much black and white with little grey, on which side you fell was more a matter of socio-economics than anything else.
But this came later on in the imperial misadventure, in the 1600s and 1700s for example, intermarriage with British soldiers and Indian women in India was very high, but by the 1800s, much rarer and somewhat taboo.
This change in attitude is found throughout the European colonial empires, just that with Britian being culturaly dominant in the 1800s, had the biggest mark on the period.

As for the Dutch, ironicly, the founders of the Indische Partij were AFAIK largely of mixed Euro/Inddonesian (IndoEuropean as the Dutch called them AFAIK) ancestry, who turned against Dutch rule towards the end of the 1800s when the Dutch, like everyone else caught the purity bug.

You are right about anglophone countries and the use of colour codes as official ethnic classification. Everywhere else that i know of uses either proper ethicity, or assumed nation of origin (Dutch system).


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 20:03

Gobineau is usually mentioned as an important theorist of racism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Gobineau - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Gobineau

In fact, racism of europeans is nothing but the theory of the practice of imperialism. Racism and orientalism were created in order to justify their imperialist practice and to exploit the subject peoples better.
 
As to the question at hand, British Empire dwarfs all others in total number of deaths it caused.
 
Stalin is called a monster today because he held back grain from starving Ukrainians and sold it in the world market, causing death of a few millions.
 
The British did the same thing in the 19th and 20th century India, and caused 30-40 million starvation deaths in famines. No famine ever happened in India after independence, even though the population doubled... 
 
One such famine happened in 1943: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
 
But we are told that Churchill is a champion of democracy and humanity while Stalin who did the same thing is a monster worse than Hitler. 
 
British also ran concentration and torture camps in Africa, even in the 1950s.
 
But we don't hear about these things because for the white imperialists only the death of white people killed by non-liberal countries count. Wogs, niggers, chinks, reds, towelheads etc. are not considered human by the them. And not only our death doesn't count, but also when we are alive we don't have any rights.
 
So Britain during world war 2 is called a 'democracy' when 400+ million people in its colonies were subjects.
 
Whatever they do, we are not allowed to think that they were 'evil' like the Germans or the Russians, but benevolent white masters who helped lesser peoples of the world.


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Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 20:10
Originally posted by calvo

 the British might not have invented this idea of white supremacism, but if you've look around the world, all the countries that are (or had been) most obsessed with "whiteness" are the former British colonies: USA, Australia, Canada.....; while in other countries the concept of "whiteness" as an ethnicity is considerably weaker.


Yeah, the Oranje Vry Staat was so much more racially tolerant than places like British North America ... not!

White supremacism has its roots in so-called scientific racism, which didn't emerge until the 1800s, and attained widespread currency among all colonial powers without exception and with very little difference in degree.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 20:19
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

 
As to the question at hand, British Empire dwarfs all others in total number of deaths it caused.
 
..... 
 
The British did the same thing in the 19th and 20th century India, and caused 30-40 million starvation deaths in famines. No famine ever happened in India after independence, even though the population doubled... 
 
One such famine happened in 1943: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
 
But we are told that Churchill is a champion of democracy and humanity while Stalin who did the same thing is a monster worse than Hitler. 
 
British also ran concentration and torture camps in Africa, even in the 1950s.
 
But we don't hear about these things because for the white imperialists only the death of white people killed by non-liberal countries count. Wogs, niggers, chinks, reds, towelheads etc. are not considered human by the them. And not only our death doesn't count, but also when we are alive we don't have any rights.
 
So Britain during world war 2 is called a 'democracy' when 400+ million people in its colonies were subjects.
 
Whatever they do, we are not allowed to think that they were 'evil' like the Germans or the Russians, but benevolent white masters who helped lesser peoples of the world.
 
 
ABSOLUTELY ClapClapClap
 
Britain has been the most hypocrital evil Empire in history. At least the others are ashamed of theirs crimes while Britain still pretends it had done no harm at all to the rest of the world.
 
Britain was the role model of the racist imperialism, and of the extermination of the "inferior races". Any similarity with Nazi Germany is not casual: it was copied.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 20:39
Humane? Why would they bother to come in the first place then?

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http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi">      
   
Join us.


Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 21:00
Originally posted by pinguin

ABSOLUTELY ClapClapClap
 
Britain has been the most hypocrital evil Empire in history. At least the others are ashamed of theirs crimes while Britain still pretends it had done no harm at all to the rest of the world.
 
Britain was the role model of the racist imperialism, and of the extermination of the "inferior races". Any similarity with Nazi Germany is not casual: it was copied.
 
Pinguin
 


Well that simply can't be true. What about some of the ancient empires? The Assyrians, at certain points in their history, come to mind. The Avars, the Mongols, and certain other ancient and medieval empires could also be cited. If you mean to say that the British Empire was the most hypocritical, evil colonial empire in history--which would stick closer to the topic--then we have begun establishing context. I still disagree, mind you, but we are closer to developing a system wherein we may qualify our rhetoric. We may continue by trying to establish a historical context in which to discuss things (i.e. while crucifixion, amputation of limbs, forced deportations, genocides, burnings, and other atrocities have been tolerated as the norm at certain points in history, they are widely condemned today).

Anyway, I think we need to establish a standard and stick to it; simple, dramatic accusations will accomplish very little. No doubt the British Empire, like allempires (sorry, couldn't resist LOL) is guilty of a number of crimes--personally I am not fond of their tendency toward pillaging priceless historical artifacts. Still, I think it would be a bit presumptuous to state that they are the epitome of the "evil empire".

-Akolouthos

Addendum: So, I came across something interesting, and thought I'd share it with you guys. AllEmpires has been cited as a source in the article "List of Largest Empires" at Wikipedia. I'm sure this isn't the only place on Wikipedia where we are cited as a reputable source, but it is kind of neat, eh?


Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 22:04
Originally posted by pinguin

Britain has been the most hypocrital evil Empire in history. At least the others are ashamed of theirs crimes while Britain still pretends it had done no harm at all to the rest of the world.
 
Nonesense. Such a claim as this only exposes that you cannot discuss this topic with any sense of objectivity, your bias is obvious.
 
Originally posted by pinguin

Britain was the role model of the racist imperialism, and of the extermination of the "inferior races". Any similarity with Nazi Germany is not casual: it was copied.
 
Is this the third or fourth time I have asked you to actually provide some evidence, and you continue to ignore it and instead make wild accusations. The rebuttals of your argument have already been posted by members with far more understanding of the topic, people who can actually provide evidence rather than link events to one another without any form of proof.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 22:20

Nazism and Anglo-Saxons

Hitler admired the British Empire as a shining example of Nordic genius. Racist theories were developed by British intellectuals in the 19th century to control the Indian people and other "savages." These methods were often copied by the Nazis.

Similarly, in his early years Hitler also greatly admired the United States of America. In Mein Kampf, he praised the United States for its race-based anti-immigration laws. According to Hitler, America was a successful nation because it kept itself "pure" of "lesser races." However as war approached, his view of the United States became more negative and he believed that Germany would have an easy victory over the United States precisely because the United States in his later estimation had become a mongrel nation..

Source: http://www.nazism.net/about/nazi_ideology/ - http://www.nazism.net/about/nazi_ideology/

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 22:32
From Le Monde Diplomatique:
 
http://mondediplo.com/2005/05/02empire - http://mondediplo.com/2005/05/02empire
 
NEW LABOUR, OLD BRITAIN
Britain: imperial nostalgia

Britain not only conveniently still forgets the crimes of its imperial past, but it has also again begun to romanticise its colonial achievements and declare them a proper source of pride.

By Seumas Milne

BARELY a generation after the ignominious end of the British empire, there is now a quiet but concerted drive to rehabilitate it, by influential newspapers, conservative academics, and at the highest level of government. Just how successful this campaign has already been was demonstrated in January when Gordon Brown, chancellor of the exchequer and Tony Blair’s heir apparent, declared in east Africa that “the days of Britain having to apologise for its colonial history are over” (1). His remark, pointedly made to the Daily Mail - which is leading the rehabilitation chorus - in the run-up to May’s general election, was clearly no heat-induced gaffe.

Speaking four months earlier at the British Museum, an Aladdin’s cave of looted treasures from Britain’s former colonies, Brown insisted: “We should be proud . . . of the empire” (2). Even Blair, who was prevailed upon to cut a similar line from a speech during his first successful election campaign in 1997, has never gone quite this far (3).

Brown’s extraordinary remarks passed with little comment in the rest of the British media. But the significance of a Labour chancellor’s support for what would until recently have been regarded as fringe rightwing revisionism was doubtless not lost on his target audience. This is a man who, despite his neoliberal enthusiasms and tense alliance with Blair, has always liked to project a more egalitarian, social democratic image than his New Labour rival. His imperial turn will have given an unwelcome jolt to anyone hoping that a Brown government might step back from the liberal imperialist swagger and wars of intervention that have punctuated Blair’s eight-year premiership. By the same token, his determination (in advance of his own expected leadership bid) to wrap himself in the Union Jack - dubbed “the butcher’s apron” by the Irish socialist James Connolly - will have impressed sections of the establishment whose embrace he is seeking.

Brown’s demand for an end to colonial apologies was part of an attempt to define a modern sense of British identity based around values of fair play, freedom and tolerance. What modernity and such values have to do with the reality of empire might not be immediately obvious. But even more bizarre is the implication that Britain is forever apologising for its empire or the crimes committed under it. As with other European former colonial powers, nothing could be further from the truth. There have been no apologies. Official Britain put decolonisation behind it, in a state of blissful amnesia, without the slightest effort to come to terms with what took place. In the years following the British army’s bloody withdrawal from Aden in 1967, there was little public debate about how Britain had maintained its grip on a quarter of the world’s population until the middle of the 20th century.

That began to change in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Rehabilitation of empire was initially raised in the early 1990s at the time of the ill-fated United States intervention in Somalia, used by maverick voices in both the US and Britain to float the “idealistic” notion of new colonies or United Nations trusteeships in Africa. The Wall Street Journal even illustrated an editorial on the subject with a picture of the British colonialist Lord Kitchener, who slaughtered the Mahdi’s followers in Sudan a century before (4).

Under the impact of the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s, the cause of “humanitarian intervention” was increasingly taken up by more liberal voices across the western world. While the liberal imperialism of the late 19th century had been justified by the need to spread Christian civilisation and trade, now it was to be human rights, markets and good governance. At the height of the Kosovo war, Blair issued what amounted to a call for a new wave of worldwide intervention based on a “subtle blend” of self-interest and moral purpose. Within a year, he put this “doctrine of international community” into practice in the former colony of Sierra Leone, where British troops were sent back after a 39-year absence to intervene in a protracted, bloody civil war.

But it was the September 2001 attacks on New York and Washington and the subsequent US-led takeover of the former British imperial zone of Afghanistan that finally outed into the political mainstream the policy that had until then dared not speak its name. By spring 2002 Blair’s foreign policy adviser and Afghan envoy, Robert Cooper (now working for Javier Solana at the European Union council of ministers), published a pamphlet making the case for “a new kind of imperialism, one acceptable to a world of human rights and cosmopolitan views” (5), while the prime minister privately argued in favour of military intervention in the former British colonies of Zimbabwe and Burma.

Such political adventurism has had to be at least temporarily reined as a result of the political and human disaster of the Iraq war and occupation. But the more favourable climate for this retro reactionary chic created by western military interventions has been seized by Britain’s conservative commentators and historians, such as Niall Ferguson and Andrew Roberts, both to champion the cause of the new imperialism and rewrite the history of the colonial past. Ferguson is an open advocate of a formal US-run global empire and his defence of British colonialism, notably in his book Empire (6), as the forerunner of 21st-century free-market globalisation, was clearly echoed by Brown’s praise of the “traders, adventurers and missionaries” who built the empire. Roberts is an open advocate of the recolonisation of Africa and insists that “Africa has never known better times than during British rule”. When the South African president recently denounced Churchill and the British empire for its “terrible legacy” in Khartoum, Roberts blithely told the BBC that the empire had brought “freedom and justice” to a benighted world (7).

It would be interesting to hear how Roberts - or Brown - balances such grotesque claims with the latest research on the huge scale of atrocities committed by British forces during the Mau Mau rebellion in colonial Kenya in the 1950s: the 320,000 Kikuyu held in concentration camps, the 1,090 hangings, the terrorisation of villages, electric shocks, beatings and mass rape documented in Caroline Elkins’s book Britain’s Gulag (8) - and well over 100,000 deaths. This was a time when British soldiers were paid five shillings (equal to $9 in today’s money) for each Kikuyu male they killed, when they nailed the limbs of African guerrillas to crossroads posts. And when they were photographed holding severed heads of Malayan communist “terrorists” in another war that cost over 10,000 lives.

Even in the late 1960s, as veterans described in a recent television documentary (9), British soldiers thrashed, tortured and murdered their way through Aden’s Crater City; one former squaddie explained that he couldn’t go into details because of the risk of war crimes prosecutions. All in the name of civilisation. The sense of continuity with today’s Iraq could not be clearer.

Such evidence is a timely corrective to the comfortable British mythology that, in contrast to France and other European colonial powers, Britain decolonised in a peaceful and humane manner. It’s not as if these end-of-empire episodes were isolated blemishes on a glorious record of freedom and good governance, as Ferguson and other contemporary imperial torchbearers would have us believe. Britain’s empire was in reality built on genocide, vast ethnic cleansing, slavery, rigorously enforced racial hierarchy and merciless exploitation. As the Cambridge historian Richard Drayton puts it: “We hear a lot about the rule of law, incorruptible government and economic progress - the reality was tyranny, oppression, poverty and the unnecessary deaths of countless millions of human beings” (10).

Some empire apologists claim that, however brutal the first phase might have been, the 19th- and 20th-century story was one of liberty and economic progress. But this is nonsense. In late 19th-century and early 20th-century India up to 30 million died in famines, as British administrators insisted on the export of grain (as they had done during the Irish famine of the 1840s) and courts ordered 80,000 floggings a year. Four million died in the avoidable Bengal famine of 1943 - there have been no such famines since independence.

What is now Bangladesh was one of the richest parts of the world before the British arrived and deliberately destroyed its cotton industry. When India’s Andaman islands were devastated by December’s tsunami, who recalled that 80,000 political prisoners had been held in camps there in the early 20th-century, routinely experimented on by British army doctors? Perhaps it’s not surprising that Hitler was an enthusiast, describing the British empire as an “inestimable factor of value”, even if it had been acquired with “force and often brutality” (11).

There has been no serious attempt in Britain to face up to this record or the long-term impact of colonialism on the societies it ruled, let alone trials of elderly colonial administrators now in Surrey retirement homes. The British national school curriculum has more or less struck the empire and its crimes out of history. The standard modern world history textbook for 16-year-olds has chapter after chapter on the world wars, the cold war, British and US life, Stalin’s terror and the monstrosities of Nazism - but scarcely a word on the British and other European empires which carved up most of the world, or the horrors they perpetrated.

What are needed are not apologies or expressions of guilt so much as education, acknowledgment, some measure of reparation and an understanding that barbarity is the inevitable consequence of attempts to impose foreign rule on subject peoples. Like most historical controversies, the argument about empire is as much about the future as the past. Those who write colonial cruelty out of 20th-century history want to legitimise the new imperialism, now bogged down in another colonial war in Iraq - just as those who demonise past attempts to build an alternative to capitalist society are determined to prove that there is none. If Brown really wants to champion British fair play, and create a new relationship with Africa, he would do better to celebrate those who campaigned for colonial freedom rather than the racist despotism they fought against.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 22:35
From BBC
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6185756.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6185756.stm
 
Britain's role in the slave trade
Prime Minister Tony Blair has voiced his "deep sorrow" over Britain's role in the slave trade on Monday - a trade that helped Britain become one of the world's greatest powers in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Slavery had been illegal in Britain since 1102, but there were no laws to stop the use of slaves to toil in the fields and plantations of the growing empire.

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Soon after the discovery of North America and the setting up of British colonies, the native population had been decimated by disease. The Crown began the wholesale transportation of African slaves to work in the colonies.

Slaves in the British colonies in the Caribbean worked on the sugar plantations which helped make the empire rich.

During the course of the 18th century the British perfected the Atlantic slave system. It is thought between 1700 and 1810 British merchants transported almost three million Africans across the Atlantic. More than 30,000 slave voyages took place.

Miserable conditions

Some historians have argued that the transatlantic slave trade created the bedrock for the modern capitalist system, creating immense wealth for the British companies which ran it.

Cities such as Bristol, London and Liverpool grew rich off the trade.

The slaves included not only Africans but men arrested after a Royalist uprising in the West Country in 1655, and Irish Catholics captured by Oliver Cromwell.

Elevated%20view%20of%20Bristol
Much of Bristol's 18th Century wealth came from the slave trade

Slaves were transported in miserable conditions, crowded into cargo holds and with little access to fresh air, clean water or proper food. Many died on the way.

They worked in the sugar cane field, an industry which relied on intensive labour rather than industrialisation.

The slave traders chose Africans because they were used to working in hot conditions.

Other slaves were brought into service as personal servants in polite society in cities such as London and Edinburgh.

William%20Wilberforce
William Wilberforce was a leading anti-slavery exponent

Christian churches had turned a blind eye to the slave trade, but later helped lead the campaign to ban the use of slaves in British industry.

In the late 18th century, an anti-slavery movement began to gain momentum in British society, organised at first by a group of Quakers, supported largely by Baptists and Methodists and eventually spearheaded by the MP William Wilberforce.

The Abolition of the Slave Trade Act threatened fines of £100 for every slave found aboard a British ship - a penalty which would have been financially disastrous for the ship owners.

Though Britain abolished slavery in 1807, it did not emancipate slaves in its overseas territories until 1834.

From the abolition of slavery until the early years of the 20th Century, the Royal Navy's West Africa Squadron sailed up and down the African coast, intercepting foreign ships carrying slaves.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 22:51
From American Renascence:
 
The Racial Ideology of Empire
 
 
http://www.amren.com/0502issue/0502issue.htm#top - http://www.amren.com/0502issue/0502issue.htm#top


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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 23:17
My rebuttal:
 
Article 1 posted is just plain wrong. The inspiration for racist German theories was not orientalism, developed by the British as a patronising and paternalistic view of subjects of the Empire. It was a contorted interpretation of Nietsche's term ubermensch. The term was a philosophical ideal aimed at the individual, German and Austrian writers took it out of context.
 
And as the article mentions, Hitler did end up hating the USA. He even referred to it as a nation "half negro and half Jew".
 
Now for article 2, this article just proves that Britain takes pride in some of its colonial achievements. Every single nation on the planet which is the heir to a nation which once comprised an empire feels similarly. You think Mongols don't get warm and fuzzy when they talk of Genghis Khan? The French feel all happy when Louis XIV gets talked of, and the Chinese have always looked at their nation as the ultimate manifestion of extended imperial rule. So what?
 
As for article 3, you just proved yourself wrong. Britain evidently is not a hypocritical nation which has conveniently forgotten about its misdeeds in the past. To prove this, I will quote the part of the article you highlighted:
 
Prime Minister Tony Blair has voiced his "deep sorrow" over Britain's role in the slave trade on Monday - a trade that helped Britain become one of the world's greatest powers in the 17th and 18th centuries.
 
If your point was that Britain participated in the slave trade, we already knew that. Participation in this sort of thing was common among most nations back in those days.
 
So really, none of what you have provided proves your points that Britain inspired Nazism, that Britain was the most evil empire in all history, or that Britain is a hypocritical nation and conveniently forgets its misdeeds. Infact, on that third claim all you have managed to do is prove yourself completely wrong.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 23:18
Bengala Famine: the British holocaust in India, and others.
 

0.4 billion post-colonial Indian Holocaust - due to inherited disregard, spin & rich elites

News Type: Event — Tue Apr 4, 2006 8:52 PM EDT
http://www.newsvine.com/world-news - world-news , http://www.newsvine.com/china - china , http://www.newsvine.com/media - media , http://www.newsvine.com/india - india , http://www.newsvine.com/uk - uk , http://www.newsvine.com/africa - africa , http://www.newsvine.com/asia - asia , http://www.newsvine.com/pakistan - pakistan , http://www.newsvine.com/racism - racism , http://www.newsvine.com/british - british , http://www.newsvine.com/sri-lanka - sri-lanka , http://www.newsvine.com/south-asia - south-asia , http://www.newsvine.com/bangladesh - bangladesh , http://www.newsvine.com/mortality - mortality , http://www.newsvine.com/bengal - bengal
http://gpolya.newsvine.com/ - Gideon Polya

Third World civilian mass mortality has been caused by foreign invasion, foreign occupation and post-colonial rule by corrupt indigenous elites - the commonality, low "practical regard" by rulers for their subjects.

We all are aware of the levels of our "practical regard" for others - this is extremely high in relation to our children and immediate family but diminishes steadily as we progress to neighbours, town, state and country and thence to totally different people on the other side of the planet.

Not allowing a person of different race to enter a restaurant is clearly "racism" and is a reflection of low "practical regard" (low PR) - but so is travelling to the other side of the world and invading, killing, conquering, enslaving and robbing the racially different inhabitants.

Unfortunately, after 5 centuries of violent and genocidal racism , the globally-dominant Anglo-Celtic culture is still doing it in Occupied Iraq and Afghanistan. The human cost is best measured by "avoidable mortality" (technically, excess mortality) which is the difference between the actual deaths in a country and the deaths expected in a peaceful, decently-run coiuntry with e same demographics. The post-invasion avoidable mortality in Occupied Iraq and Afghanistan (combined population 53 million) now totals 2.3 million.

However, just as the past and present human cost of Anglo-Celtic imperialism is religiously non-reported by Anglo-American academics, politicians and media, so is the human cost of the post-occupation rule of victim countries by indigenous elites with insufficient "practical regard" for their subjects .This is powerfully illustrated by post-colonial Africa and South Asia.

The British East India Company was approved by Queen Elizabeth I in 1600 and promptly set sail for the East. In 1757 the British conquered immensely prosperous Bengal and commenced genocidal taxation of the inhabitants. Thus began a 2 century nightmare of rapacious taxation and recurrent famines that killed scores of millions. The British deliberately kept their Indian subjects living "on the edge" in order to maintain control and this is reflected in horrendous avoidable mortality.

The avoidable mortality in British-ruled India can be roughly estimated to have been about 0.6 billion (1757-1837), 0.5 billion (1837-1901, under the the rule of Queen Victoria) and 0.4 billion (1901-1947 i.e. the 20th century up to Independence). Thus the total avoidable mortality in "British India" amounted to 1.5 billion, easily the most appalling crime in all of human history - and a crime that has been largely deleted from history books in the English-speaking world.

Some of the major specific atrocities are simply not known to most people. Thus the 1769/1770 Great Bengal Famine - only a dozen years after the British conquest of Bengal - killed 10 million people in over-taxed Bengal (one third of the population) - if people did not have the money to buy food they starved. This set a pattern to be repeated over 2 centuries in British-ruled India.

Two centuries later, the World War 2 Bengal Famine killed 4 million (5 million according to Satyajit Ray in his moving film "Distant Thunder") and contributed to a 1941-1951 demographic deficit of over 10 million. The WW2 Bengal Famine happened because (for a variety of "market forces" reasons) the price of rice rose 4-fold - and, again, those who did not have money to buy food simply starved to death. Critically, Calcutta was experiencing a war-time boom and effectively sucked food out of a starving, rice-producing countryside.

The Bengal Famine was asociated with gross civilian and British Military sexual abuse of starving women and girls (30,000 such victims in Calcutta alone and possibly hundreds of thousands throughout this populous province - a crime commensurate with the notorious "comfort women" abuses of the Japanese Imperial Army in WW2). Colin Mason in "A Short History of Asia" (Macmillan, London, 2000) condemns the ugly reality that the WW2 Bengal Famine has been largely written out of history and advances a good reason for this, namely that the famine may have been due to a deliberate British "scorched earth policy" to prevent a Japanese invasion from Burma.

Indian Independence in 1947 certainly DID improve things - indigenous rulers have a greater "practical regard" (PR) for their own kind than do foreigners. Thus the "annual death rate" in 'peaceful" British India in 1947 was a genocidal 3.5% (it was 4.8% thirty years earlier) but it fell steadily under indigenous rule to about 0.9% today (a figure that is still twice what it should be). Further, the catastrophic famines that were a sustained feature of racist British rule were effectively things of the past post-Independence.

However, while indigenous rule essentially abolished famine in India , the ruling elite was unable or unwilling to abolish endemic poverty. Again, "avoidable mortality" is a powerful measure of the success or otherwise of social policies and can be examined in this context too. The post-1950 avoidable mortality in "democratic" India (current population 1,097 million) has totalled 352 million whereas that in "authoritarian" China (current population 1,322 million) has totalled 157 million - a vastly better performance; the figure for South Asia (current population 1,459 million) has been 465 million.

Current figures for the "annual avoidable mortality" (2003) are even more devastating: 0 (zero) in China (and indeed in all East Asia countries except for North Korea and Mongolia) but 0.6 million (Bangladesh, pop. 145 million), 3.7 million (India, pop. 1,057 million), 0.9 million (Pakistan, pop. 152 million) and 0 (zero) for Sri Lanka (population 19 million).

Something is awfully wrong in India - as perceived by many Indian writers and commentators, and mostly famously by the great writer and humanitarian Arundhati Roy. The example of Sri Lanka shows that (even with a civil war), high adult literacy (especially high female literacy), an annual per capita income of merely about US$1,000 and sensible governance can essentially eliminate "avoidable mortality".

What went so awfully wrong in South Asia but so right in China? The crucial difference lies in their experience of foreign invasion and occupation. South Asia suffered 2 centuries of violent, racist British rule in which it was "normal" for ordinary Indians - but not their colonial masters or indigenous elites - to live "on the edge". The indigenous elites evidently carried this British mindset of diminished "practical regard" for ordinary Indians into the post-colonial era (together with a general Anglophilia as most publicy revealed in the Indian obsession with cricket).

In contrast, China suffered horrendously in the 19th century from European violence and its consequences (notably the Opium Wars, the Tai Ping rebellion and the Boxer Rebellion) and from Japanese miltarism in the 20th century (partial occupation in 1937-1945 with 35 million Chinese war dead). Only tiny parts of China (Hong Kong, Macau, and Shanghai) were actually physically occupied by the Europeans and Japanese occupation, while bloody and extensive, was limited in area and duration. The Communist rulers of China (whatever their authoritarian shortcomings) at least had a philosophical commitment to abolishing endemic poverty - and the Chinese certainly did not suffer from the kind of "Stockholm Syndrome" afflicting the Indian elites (i.e. a paradoxical love for their captor).

Ultimately, what has caused the 0.4 billion post-colonial Indian Holocaust has been the "inheritance" by the indigenous elites from their British masters of (1) a diminished "practical regard" for ordinary Indians (this being akin to racism); (2) the abuse of democratic freedom through political and media "spin" (i.e. non-reportage of the extent of the catastrophe); and (3) a kind of "politically correct racism" (PC racism) through which "freedom", "equality", "democracy", "non-racism" and "political correctness" are bandied about but horrendous things are done to "others" and these crimes are ignored.

The Indian Holocaust, the South Asian Holocaust and the sub-Saharan African Holocaust are continuing (post-1950 avoidable mortality 0.4 billion, 0.5 billion and 0.3 billion, respectively; avoidable mortality in 2003 alone 3.7 million, 5.3 million and 6.4 million, respectively). The first step to halting this carnage is for decent people to INFORM OTHERS.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 23:23
Originally posted by Constantine XI

My rebuttal:
 
Article 1 posted is just plain wrong. The inspiration for racist German theories was not orientalism, developed by the British as a patronising and paternalistic view of subjects of the Empire. It was a contorted interpretation of Nietsche's term ubermensch. The term was a philosophical ideal aimed at the individual, German and Austrian writers took it out of context.
 
And as the article mentions, Hitler did end up hating the USA. He even referred to it as a nation "half negro and half Jew".
 
 
Have you read Hitler's book? The influence is so obvious if you read it directly from the source.
 
Pinguin


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 23:26
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/correspondent/2416049.stm -
Found in the web, interesting:
 
The Gory Cruelties of the British
 
 
Here , there’s a on-line piece a few years old that details some of the most shameful British atrocities in a long imperial past characterized to a huge extent by such terror all over the world.  This particular column is about Kenya.

Kenyan Mau Mau veterans’ groups are cataloguing a potentially damaging dossier on alleged human rights abuses in the 1950s. This could lead to a huge legal action for compensation against the UK Government.  The Mau Mau uprising in Kenya in the 1950s was a murky part of the British military’s past.

The ruthless, clandestine Mau Mau movement found its roots in the Kenyan Kikuyu tribe.  Their aim was to win back their land and personal freedoms denied them by the British colonial power at the time.

Lawyers, working with Kenyan Mau Mau veterans’ groups, have taken over 6,000 depositions alleging numerous major human rights abuses, including rape, torture, indiscriminate killing and theft of property.

For more on Kenya, click http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=5688 - here .  This tells the 1959 story of 85 internees at the Hola Detention Camp in Kenya refused to take part in forced labour and sat down in protest. Internees in the camp had been refusing to work for nine days and now these men were to be made an example. When the camp commander, G M Sullivan, blew his whistle over 100 guards attacked the prisoners with clubs and rifle butts, killing one of them.

A related piece on British atrocities in Iraq is http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/amnesty.htm - hereThe Guardian from 2002 has a very well-done column http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,761626,00.html - here , on the denial by most British officials and citizens of its abuses in the past. 

Complacency about Britain’s imperial record lingers on. In the post-September 11 orgy of self-congratulation about the west’s superiority, Blair’s former foreign policy guru, Robert Cooper, and a host of journalistic flag-wavers were urging us not to be ashamed of empire. Cooper insisted empire was “as necessary now as it had been in the 19th century”. The British empire was, we were assured, a generally well-intentioned attempt to inculcate notions of good government, civilised behaviour and market rationality into less well-favoured societies.

Is such a rosy view of British imperialism justified? Many argue that it is. After all, surely the British have less blood on their hands than the French and the Belgians? Wasn’t the British addiction to the free market a prophylactic against the horrors of forced labour? And didn’t those peculiar class obsessions make them less racist than the rest - silly snobs, but not vicious yobs? And isn’t India not only a democracy, but, thanks to the British, one with great railways? Perhaps there is a kernel of truth in some of this, but there’s also much wilful smugness. While the complex consequences of colonial economic policy require extended analysis, it is possible to dispel more swiftly the myth that the British Empire, unlike King Leopold’s, was innocent of atrocities.

And this is all to say nothing of their attempts at wiping out the Irish race for hundreds of years….



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Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 00:00
Anyone can come up with a laundry list of atrocities committed by any particular colonial power - England, Spain, Belgium, France, take your pick.

The same goes for most of the powers they toppled in building their own empires. Chinese, Aztecs, India, Iroqouis, Inca, Zulu - all of them committed atrocities and most of them were, themselves, empires.

And if you think Ireland is unusual, what about the Basques? At least the British never pulled a Guernica on Dublin.


Posted By: Tar Szerénd
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 03:16
Chinese, Aztecs, India, Inca, Zulu made trouble just in their neighbour lands, and not 1000s of km-s far away.


Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 04:33
Pinguin,
 
I'm so glad you took my advice as to thinking through rash statements before...*ahem* rashly posting them. LOL
 
Oh well, if you want to spout nonsense, on your head be the nonsense that results.
 
-Akolouthos
 
P.S. By the way, most of us can post gibberish from fringe, irrelevant websites too; we might even be able to find everyday news-clippings, as you have. We, however, choose to engage in discussion rather than spam-criticism. Occasionally, you will even find us *gasp* posting our own thoughts, and intelligently responding to the criticism of others. Cheers.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 04:40
An article in Le Monde by someone called Seumas?
 
Come on!
 
And anyway, since 1800 or so, when has the US been 'Anglo-Saxon', even primarily? No Scots, Welsh, Irish, Germans, Dutch, Italians, Scandinavians, Poles, Jews, Greeks, Lithuanians, Armenians...and for that matter even French?
 
Originally posted by pinguin

From Le Monde Diplomatique:
 
http://mondediplo.com/2005/05/02empire - http://mondediplo.com/2005/05/02empire
 
NEW LABOUR, OLD BRITAIN
Britain: imperial nostalgia

Britain not only conveniently still forgets the crimes of its imperial past, but it has also again begun to romanticise its colonial achievements and declare them a proper source of pride.

By Seumas Milne

BARELY a generation after the ignominious end of the British empire, there is now a quiet but concerted drive to rehabilitate it, by influential newspapers, conservative academics, and at the highest level of government. Just how successful this campaign has already been was demonstrated in January when Gordon Brown, chancellor of the exchequer and Tony Blair’s heir apparent, declared in east Africa that “the days of Britain having to apologise for its colonial history are over” (1). His remark, pointedly made to the Daily Mail - which is leading the rehabilitation chorus - in the run-up to May’s general election, was clearly no heat-induced gaffe.

Speaking four months earlier at the British Museum, an Aladdin’s cave of looted treasures from Britain’s former colonies, Brown insisted: “We should be proud . . . of the empire” (2). Even Blair, who was prevailed upon to cut a similar line from a speech during his first successful election campaign in 1997, has never gone quite this far (3).

Brown’s extraordinary remarks passed with little comment in the rest of the British media. But the significance of a Labour chancellor’s support for what would until recently have been regarded as fringe rightwing revisionism was doubtless not lost on his target audience. This is a man who, despite his neoliberal enthusiasms and tense alliance with Blair, has always liked to project a more egalitarian, social democratic image than his New Labour rival. His imperial turn will have given an unwelcome jolt to anyone hoping that a Brown government might step back from the liberal imperialist swagger and wars of intervention that have punctuated Blair’s eight-year premiership. By the same token, his determination (in advance of his own expected leadership bid) to wrap himself in the Union Jack - dubbed “the butcher’s apron” by the Irish socialist James Connolly - will have impressed sections of the establishment whose embrace he is seeking.

Brown’s demand for an end to colonial apologies was part of an attempt to define a modern sense of British identity based around values of fair play, freedom and tolerance. What modernity and such values have to do with the reality of empire might not be immediately obvious. But even more bizarre is the implication that Britain is forever apologising for its empire or the crimes committed under it. As with other European former colonial powers, nothing could be further from the truth. There have been no apologies. Official Britain put decolonisation behind it, in a state of blissful amnesia, without the slightest effort to come to terms with what took place. In the years following the British army’s bloody withdrawal from Aden in 1967, there was little public debate about how Britain had maintained its grip on a quarter of the world’s population until the middle of the 20th century.

That began to change in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Rehabilitation of empire was initially raised in the early 1990s at the time of the ill-fated United States intervention in Somalia, used by maverick voices in both the US and Britain to float the “idealistic” notion of new colonies or United Nations trusteeships in Africa. The Wall Street Journal even illustrated an editorial on the subject with a picture of the British colonialist Lord Kitchener, who slaughtered the Mahdi’s followers in Sudan a century before (4).

Under the impact of the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s, the cause of “humanitarian intervention” was increasingly taken up by more liberal voices across the western world. While the liberal imperialism of the late 19th century had been justified by the need to spread Christian civilisation and trade, now it was to be human rights, markets and good governance. At the height of the Kosovo war, Blair issued what amounted to a call for a new wave of worldwide intervention based on a “subtle blend” of self-interest and moral purpose. Within a year, he put this “doctrine of international community” into practice in the former colony of Sierra Leone, where British troops were sent back after a 39-year absence to intervene in a protracted, bloody civil war.

But it was the September 2001 attacks on New York and Washington and the subsequent US-led takeover of the former British imperial zone of Afghanistan that finally outed into the political mainstream the policy that had until then dared not speak its name. By spring 2002 Blair’s foreign policy adviser and Afghan envoy, Robert Cooper (now working for Javier Solana at the European Union council of ministers), published a pamphlet making the case for “a new kind of imperialism, one acceptable to a world of human rights and cosmopolitan views” (5), while the prime minister privately argued in favour of military intervention in the former British colonies of Zimbabwe and Burma.

Such political adventurism has had to be at least temporarily reined as a result of the political and human disaster of the Iraq war and occupation. But the more favourable climate for this retro reactionary chic created by western military interventions has been seized by Britain’s conservative commentators and historians, such as Niall Ferguson and Andrew Roberts, both to champion the cause of the new imperialism and rewrite the history of the colonial past. Ferguson is an open advocate of a formal US-run global empire and his defence of British colonialism, notably in his book Empire (6), as the forerunner of 21st-century free-market globalisation, was clearly echoed by Brown’s praise of the “traders, adventurers and missionaries” who built the empire. Roberts is an open advocate of the recolonisation of Africa and insists that “Africa has never known better times than during British rule”. When the South African president recently denounced Churchill and the British empire for its “terrible legacy” in Khartoum, Roberts blithely told the BBC that the empire had brought “freedom and justice” to a benighted world (7).

It would be interesting to hear how Roberts - or Brown - balances such grotesque claims with the latest research on the huge scale of atrocities committed by British forces during the Mau Mau rebellion in colonial Kenya in the 1950s: the 320,000 Kikuyu held in concentration camps, the 1,090 hangings, the terrorisation of villages, electric shocks, beatings and mass rape documented in Caroline Elkins’s book Britain’s Gulag (8) - and well over 100,000 deaths. This was a time when British soldiers were paid five shillings (equal to $9 in today’s money) for each Kikuyu male they killed, when they nailed the limbs of African guerrillas to crossroads posts. And when they were photographed holding severed heads of Malayan communist “terrorists” in another war that cost over 10,000 lives.

Even in the late 1960s, as veterans described in a recent television documentary (9), British soldiers thrashed, tortured and murdered their way through Aden’s Crater City; one former squaddie explained that he couldn’t go into details because of the risk of war crimes prosecutions. All in the name of civilisation. The sense of continuity with today’s Iraq could not be clearer.

Such evidence is a timely corrective to the comfortable British mythology that, in contrast to France and other European colonial powers, Britain decolonised in a peaceful and humane manner. It’s not as if these end-of-empire episodes were isolated blemishes on a glorious record of freedom and good governance, as Ferguson and other contemporary imperial torchbearers would have us believe. Britain’s empire was in reality built on genocide, vast ethnic cleansing, slavery, rigorously enforced racial hierarchy and merciless exploitation. As the Cambridge historian Richard Drayton puts it: “We hear a lot about the rule of law, incorruptible government and economic progress - the reality was tyranny, oppression, poverty and the unnecessary deaths of countless millions of human beings” (10).

Some empire apologists claim that, however brutal the first phase might have been, the 19th- and 20th-century story was one of liberty and economic progress. But this is nonsense. In late 19th-century and early 20th-century India up to 30 million died in famines, as British administrators insisted on the export of grain (as they had done during the Irish famine of the 1840s) and courts ordered 80,000 floggings a year. Four million died in the avoidable Bengal famine of 1943 - there have been no such famines since independence.

What is now Bangladesh was one of the richest parts of the world before the British arrived and deliberately destroyed its cotton industry. When India’s Andaman islands were devastated by December’s tsunami, who recalled that 80,000 political prisoners had been held in camps there in the early 20th-century, routinely experimented on by British army doctors? Perhaps it’s not surprising that Hitler was an enthusiast, describing the British empire as an “inestimable factor of value”, even if it had been acquired with “force and often brutality” (11).

There has been no serious attempt in Britain to face up to this record or the long-term impact of colonialism on the societies it ruled, let alone trials of elderly colonial administrators now in Surrey retirement homes. The British national school curriculum has more or less struck the empire and its crimes out of history. The standard modern world history textbook for 16-year-olds has chapter after chapter on the world wars, the cold war, British and US life, Stalin’s terror and the monstrosities of Nazism - but scarcely a word on the British and other European empires which carved up most of the world, or the horrors they perpetrated.

What are needed are not apologies or expressions of guilt so much as education, acknowledgment, some measure of reparation and an understanding that barbarity is the inevitable consequence of attempts to impose foreign rule on subject peoples. Like most historical controversies, the argument about empire is as much about the future as the past. Those who write colonial cruelty out of 20th-century history want to legitimise the new imperialism, now bogged down in another colonial war in Iraq - just as those who demonise past attempts to build an alternative to capitalist society are determined to prove that there is none. If Brown really wants to champion British fair play, and create a new relationship with Africa, he would do better to celebrate those who campaigned for colonial freedom rather than the racist despotism they fought against.



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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 05:01
 
Originally posted by pinguin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/correspondent/2416049.stm -
Found in the web, interesting:
 
The Gory Cruelties of the British
 
 
All this proves is that you know absolutely nothing about the Mau Mau movement. You might as well just read the wikipedia article on the subject which also whitewashes one of the most murderous, callous and bloodthirsty movements in history. It makes it seem like some kind of Ghandiesque movement for liberation instead of the obscenity it was.
 

A related piece on British atrocities in Iraq is http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/amnesty.htm - hereThe Guardian from 2002 has a very well-done column http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,761626,00.html - here , on the denial by most British officials and citizens of its abuses in the past. 

 
Thus disproving your own hypothesis, since the Guardian is a British newspaper, and, moreover, one that has steadily opposed extension of the empire since the nineteenth century.
 
And, incidentally, nowhere does the article state that 'most British officials and citizens' deny its abuses in the past. They simply don't.

And this is all to say nothing of their attempts at wiping out the Irish race for hundreds of years….

 
Ridiculous. And anyway, the Irish were just as much involved in building and running the Empire as the Scots, Welsh, and English. (And for that matter in running the US.)


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Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 06:58
How startling for anyone to bring up the Mau Mau movement as a British human rights abuse! That is insanity particularly when the best way to do research in this case is to look up the newspaper accounts of the time. The British got caught up on a power struggle between factions in Kenya. From a military point of view the British won by the policy of "take and hold" of land. they lost the political battle being waged by Communists. The same happened to America in Vietnam, had the Americans used the British military tactics in Kenya then a better solution would have been reached.


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elenos


Posted By: kurt
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 08:49
Seriously, why is Britain leading this poll? THEY COMMITTED THE ONLY SUCCESSFUL GENOCIDE OF THE MODERN ERA (Aboriginals of Tasmania). I'm just focusing on Australia here, but they were absolutely barbaric when it came to their treatment of natives. Aboriginals were OFFICIALLY classified as fauna! When they wanted to settle somewhere, the first thing they would do was send out small divisions of officers to wipe out the natives. For instance the massacre of Pilbarra. Any empire which classifies the natives of its colonies as part of the wildlife is not a humane empire.
 
By the way, do the Ottomans really constitute as a colonial empire?


Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 09:05
Hmm. With your obvious leftist opinions I bet you won't be wishing Howard a happy birthday either!

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elenos


Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 09:17
There is no such thing as a humane empire, or one may argue state, but it is a crime to spread the lie that British Empire was especially humane.
 
Article 1 posted is just plain wrong. The inspiration for racist German theories was not orientalism, developed by the British as a patronising and paternalistic view of subjects of the Empire. It was a contorted interpretation of Nietsche's term ubermensch. The term was a philosophical ideal aimed at the individual, German and Austrian writers took it out of context.
 
This is fantasy. Nazi race theory is firmly rooted in european 'race science'. Which in turn, developed from european Orientalism, which was considered a major scholarly discipline with hundreds of years behind it. 
 
What  Nietzsche wrote is totally irrelevant to the adoptation of Arian master race theories by the Germans. Nobody with a slightest idea of Nietzsche or Orientalism can believe in this.
 
As to what the British did in Kenya:
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-holocausts/ - http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/12/27/how-britain-denies-its-holocausts/
 
Three recent books – Britain’s Gulag by Caroline Elkins, Histories of the Hanged by David Anderson and Web of Deceit by Mark Curtis – show how white settlers and British troops suppressed the Mau Mau revolt in Kenya in the 1950s. Thrown off their best land and deprived of political rights, the Kikuyu started to organise – some of them violently – against colonial rule. The British responded by driving up to 320,000 of them into concentration camps(3). Most of the remainder – over a million – were held in “enclosed villages”. Prisoners were questioned with the help of “slicing off ears, boring holes in eardrums, flogging until death, pouring paraffin over suspects who were then set alight, and burning eardrums with lit cigarettes.”(4) British soldiers used a “metal castrating instrument” to cut off testicles and fingers. “By the time I cut his balls off,” one settler boasted, “he had no ears, and his eyeball, the right one, I think, was hanging out of its socket”(5). The soldiers were told they could shoot anyone they liked “provided they were black”(6). Elkins’s evidence suggests that over 100,000 Kikuyu were either killed by the British or died of disease and starvation in the camps. David Anderson documents the hanging of 1090 suspected rebels: far more than the French executed in Algeria(7). Thousands more were summarily executed by soldiers, who claimed they had “failed to halt” when challenged.


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Posted By: kurt
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 09:18

I'm not a leftist. I believe that communism is a good system for agriculture based economies (like latin america), and i admire fidel castro. However, i believe that progress is the objective of civilization, and progress must come from industrialised countries, whose economies simply are not compatible with communist ideology. Just needed to clarify that, i don't like being mislabelled.



Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 09:33
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

There is no such thing as a humane empire, or one may argue state, but it is a crime to spread the lie that British Empire was especially humane.


That's not what anyone's doing. People are reacting to statements that the British were the most inhumane empire that ever existed, which is patently false. There were many empires who were equally brutal in the colonial era, and almost any empire of the ancient period was far more brutal.


Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 09:41
Just trying to stir you up, kurt! But the more you study Australian history the more you realize how laid back Australians have been. Most people would never do as I have done and read right through the newspaper accounts of the time. They show a deeper sympathy with the aborigines than you suppose.

Australian writers who came out with all this startling stuff about Aboriginal atrocities were all  communists having a stir. They wanted to encourage revolution in Australia, but Australians are just too involved in other more serious things, like football or cricket. I heard there were Aborigines in the team that first began the ashes series!


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elenos


Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 10:43
Originally posted by elenos

Just trying to stir you up, kurt! But the more you study Australian history the more you realize how laid back Australians have been. Most people would never do as I have done and read right through the newspaper accounts of the time. They show a deeper sympathy with the aborigines than you suppose.

Australian writers who came out with all this startling stuff about Aboriginal atrocities were all  communists having a stir. They wanted to encourage revolution in Australia, but Australians are just too involved in other more serious things, like football or cricket. I heard there were Aborigines in the team that first began the ashes series!
 
 
Are you serious?I sugest you read some fact of which John Pilger talks about in (The new rulers of the world),you have there a chapter dedicated to crimes against the aboriginals,read it and then we'll talk again.
 
ps.dont go on about Pilgers record (in suporting,komunists,and other dictators) but concentrate on the arguments,wich is suported by facts*.


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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 15:55
Why are there two votes for the Tsarist Russia?ConfusedConfused I already said that Russia during the Tsars faced practically no expansion (to the east)... 

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 20:34
Originally posted by edgewaters

Anyone can come up with a laundry list of atrocities committed by any particular colonial power - England, Spain, Belgium, France, take your pick.

The same goes for most of the powers they toppled in building their own empires. Chinese, Aztecs, India, Iroqouis, Inca, Zulu - all of them committed atrocities and most of them were, themselves, empires.

And if you think Ireland is unusual, what about the Basques? At least the British never pulled a Guernica on Dublin.
 
 
Look at the voting. There is many people in here that believe the British Empire was HUMANE LOLLOL
 
If that isn't biass, I don't know what it is biass then.
 
The empires you want to compare have already been judged and considered guilty!!! But many naive people still believe the British Empire was great...  Yes, It was great. A great criminal, nothing less.
 
Pinguin
 


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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 20:44
Originally posted by pinguin

The empires you want to compare have already been judged and considered guilty!!! But many naive people still believe the British Empire was great...  Yes, It was great. A great criminal, nothing less.


It was so much more than that, one of the most dynamic and creative states the world has ever known. It's just unfortunate that a lot here seem to have empire envy, looking back at their own nation's empires and finding the achievements somewhat meagre compared to that of Britain's.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 20:51
Originally posted by Constantine XI

...
It was so much more than that, one of the most dynamic and creative states the world has ever known. It's just unfortunate that a lot here seem to have empire envy, looking back at their own nation's empires and finding the achievements somewhat meagre compared to that of Britain's.
 
Envy? Nope. Just counting the number of victims on whose dead bodies the great empire was build, and the trone of bones on which the Queen put her ass LOLLOL If slavery, torture, genocide of indigenous people and the Irish and the abusses on working children during the industrial revolution are nothing for you, well, then I am fighting against dogma.
 
Britain is not the clean and justice making empire the biassed anglosaxon education preaches. No sir.
 
The Queen is dead... send her to the oven LOL
 
Pinguin
 
 


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Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 21:18

I didn’t know who John Pilger is so I looked it up. To be fair I have taken his words and will try to say them without choking.

 “John Pilger (born October 9, 1939) is an Australian journalist and documentary filmmaker from Sydney, primarily based in London, England.”

 One of his (millions) of quotes,

"More terrorists are given training and sanctuary in the United States than anywhere on earth. They include mass murderers, torturers, former and future tyrants and assorted international criminals. This is virtually unknown to the American public, thanks to the freest media on earth."

 Pilger is noted for his constant and unending rants against all major powers, including his adapted country after leaving his own. He is a gonzo journalist that lays awake at night thinking up yet another conspiracy theory! He says “it is not enough for journalists to see themselves as mere messengers without understanding the hidden agendas of the messages and myths that surround it.” Exactly John, now we know who you are and those who want to listen to your crap will!



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elenos


Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 21:20
Originally posted by pinguin

Envy? Nope.


Yep, this forum reeks of it sometimes. It's quite petty.

If slavery, torture, genocide of indigenous people and the Irish and the abusses on working children during the industrial revolution are nothing for you, well, then I am fighting against dogma.


We've been there, We've done that, I'm personally over explaining again and again. All empires have committed crimes. Most nations have attacked their neighbours. Britain's scale was large and its behaviour varied. As for children working in the industrial revolution - now you are being absurd. Children have always worked, and often in dangerous and unhealthy conditions, all throughout history. All the industrial revolution did was shift the work from the countryside to the city. If anything, children during the industrial revolution received more education than prior to the industrial revolution, plus infant mortality rates plummeted. The industrial revolution resulted in a rise in real wages, improvements in healthcare and education as well as bringing democratic participation closer to the ordinary person. And yes, it was Britain which pioneered this movement. So pinguin, it's good of you to remind us of this precious and wonderous achievement of the British empire which people around the world have followed for the general improvement of all humanity Big%20smile

Originally posted by pinguin

The Queen is dead... send her to the oven LOL


That makes no sense.


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Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 21:30
Remarks like those are offensive to any nation. You have crossed over the line pinquin and I'm disappointed in you.  

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elenos


Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 21:58
Originally posted by pinguin

 
The empires you want to compare have already been judged and considered guilty!!! But many naive people still believe the British Empire was great...  Yes, It was great. A great criminal, nothing less.


Originally posted by pinguin

Britain is not the clean and justice making empire the biassed anglosaxon education preaches. No sir.
 
The Queen is dead... send her to the oven LOL


How old are you?

-Akolouthos

Addendum: Not that I wish to dignify your puerile remarks with a response, but isn't it more than a bit foolish to complain about atrocities in the same sentence that you insinuate that an old woman should be burned in an oven?


Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 22:27
Akolouthos, judging by his replies to other posts today I would guess he is tripping out on on some tropical herbal substance. You won't get any sense out of him until tomorrow. Pinquin, go take the rest of the day off.


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elenos


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 01:07
Originally posted by pinguin

Look at the voting. There is many people in here that believe the British Empire was HUMANE


Britain had many humane aspects. It also had many inhumane aspects. They aren't mutually exclusive qualities.

People probably voted for Britain for the same reasons they voted for Rome, that it brought alot of development to the places it colonized. Also, unlike Rome or France or Spain or any other empire I can think of, Britain dismantled its empire starting in the 20s - sometimes because they were forced to but quite often, even in some African countries, without any uprising involved - and attempted to set up parliamentary democracies in its ex-colonies, which sometimes worked (India, Canada, etc) and sometimes didn't (Zimbabwe etc).

Unfortunately there was no choice in the poll to say that all empires have had humane and inhumane aspects. That's why I didn't vote, the choice is too tough. Some of the first comments lamented this before it degenerated into the typical competitive, nationalist stereotyping, sensationalization, apologetics, etc - as if any empire could be shown to have been more humane or more inhumane than any other. Their actions and the circumstances under which they acted were so different as to be incomparable.


Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 01:24
Good response, edgewaters. I voted English because they did have parliamentary democracy and rule of law in the sense their actions could be legally challenged if allowed, but the history of getting that permission is another subject. The English beat themselves with their own system!


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elenos


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 05:44
 
Originally posted by pinguin

 
Envy? Nope. Just counting the number of victims on whose dead bodies the great empire was build, and the trone of bones on which the Queen put her ass LOLLOL If slavery, torture, genocide of indigenous people and the Irish
Granted it may be superfluous to single out one idiocy in a stream of lunatic statements, but why on earth mention the Irish as victims. The Irish were as integral a part of British imperialism as anyone else: why do you think one of the five Guards regiments are and were the IRISH Guards? Where do you think the Ryal Inniskilling Fusiliers come from? Or the Connaught Rangers?
 
Incidentally, the Inniskillings, the Royal Irish Fusiliers, the Irish Guards, and the Kings Royal Irish Hussars were among the British troops in Kenya that put down the Mau Mau terror. Let alone the Irish serving with the service units.
 
You really just don't know anything at all about this do you?
 
and the abusses on working children during the industrial revolution are nothing for you, well, then I am fighting against dogma.
 
That has nothing at all to do with imperialiem, and was anyway just as bad everywhere else in the industrialised world. If anything there was LESS abuse of children in this manner in the rest of the Empire than there was at home.
 
What distinguishes Britain is the freedom with which the British denounced and fought against such conditions, and the way in which it harboured revolutionaries like Marx whi were bent on changing things.
 
Britain is not the clean and justice making empire the biassed anglosaxon education preaches. No sir.
 
Then who are you suggesting brought ideals of human rights and democracy and equality before the law to the countries of the Empire?They certainly didn't develop them themselves: they didn't exist at the time the colonisers took over. The British typically worked through the existing non-democratic, sometimes tyrannical, power structures it's true, but the eventual replacement of those non-democratic structures by fairer and more liberal ones came as the result of British intervention, not in spite of it.
 
The Queen is dead... send her to the oven LOL
That is simply childish.
 


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 09:54
Originally posted by elenos

Good response, edgewaters. I voted English because they did have parliamentary democracy and rule of law in the sense their actions could be legally challenged if allowed, but the history of getting that permission is another subject. The English beat themselves with their own system!
 
Yeap. I am pretty sure the slaves of Jamaica voted to select theirs representatives in the parlament.
 
Democracy and freedom. How many crimes were commited (and are commited) in your name Embarrassed


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 10:02
Originally posted by Constantine XI

...
We've been there, We've done that, I'm personally over explaining again and again. All empires have committed crimes. Most nations have attacked their neighbours. Britain's scale was large and its behaviour varied. As for children working in the industrial revolution - now you are being absurd. Children have always worked, and often in dangerous and unhealthy conditions, all throughout history. All the industrial revolution did was shift the work from the countryside to the city. If anything, children during the industrial revolution received more education than prior to the industrial revolution, plus infant mortality rates plummeted. The industrial revolution resulted in a rise in real wages, improvements in healthcare and education as well as bringing democratic participation closer to the ordinary person.
 
DeadDead
 
I bet you don't realize that the treatment of the poors in Britain during the industrial revolution was the main factor that spark communism! Carl Marx main source of inspiration was Industrial Britain!
 
And I bet you don't know writers denounced the abusses and made great literature. Think in Oliver Twist
 
Originally posted by Constantine XI

...
And yes, it was Britain which pioneered this movement. So pinguin, it's good of you to remind us of this precious and wonderous achievement of the British empire which people around the world have followed for the general improvement of all humanity Big%20smile
 
Everybody knows Newton and Watt, indeed. That's theirs contribution. They also left a mess in our modern world, from demographic changes, to the destruction of habitats and peoples, and all our "modernity".
 
Yeap. They increase our capacity of hypocresy to new hights LOL.
 
Pinguin
 


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 10:06
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by pinguin

Look at the voting. There is many people in here that believe the British Empire was HUMANE


Britain had many humane aspects. It also had many inhumane aspects. They aren't mutually exclusive qualities.

....
 
Absolutely agree.
 
The only point I was trying to make is to judge Britain in an impartial manner, taking into account its merits and its crimes. Just in the same way people judge Spain, Portugal, France, China, Rome, Persia the U.S.S.R or any superpower in world history. The same way the U.S. will be judged some day in the future....
 
With honesty.
 
Pinguin
 


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Posted By: Peteratwar
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 10:09
Regretfully ,Pinguin, impartiality does not appear to be understood by you judging by your posts.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 10:27
Originally posted by Peteratwar

Regretfully ,Pinguin, impartiality does not appear to be understood by you judging by your posts.
 
LOL Somebody has to play the "lawyer of the devil". Particularly in some circles when there is no opposing views to the myth of the greatness of the anglosaxon people.


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