Turkic Origins in North Pakistan
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ethnic History of Central Asia
Forum Discription: Discussions about the ethnic origins of Central Asian peoples. All topics related to ethnicity should go here.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20268
Printed Date: 20-Apr-2024 at 11:04
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Turkic Origins in North Pakistan
Posted By: Cuneyt
Subject: Turkic Origins in North Pakistan
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 07:33
|
Hello everyone, I have a question for you all. What is a Turk? Are you only a Turk if you speak Turkic languages. The reason I ask is because my father's family live in North Pakistan. But my father has always said our origin is Turkic from central Asia. Our tribe is called Qutub Shahi and are originally from one of the six sons of Qutub shah a Turkish general of Mahmud of Gaznavi. I have noticed that the Gaznali Empire (Gazneliler) is considered one of the 16 büyük Türk imparatorluğunu.
Not to mention that the area where my family is from has been invaded many times by Central Asian Turks. Including Timur and Babar (Again of the 16 büyük Türk imparatorluğunu). Also Again directly connected to my family is The Mamluk Sultanate of Qutbudin Aybeg and his succesors Shamsudin Iltutmish and Ghaisudin Balban These Turkic names are still very popular in our family, (more than Arab or Persian names) as well as the name Kublay, Changez and AlpArslan. Also our surname is Khan. My name is Junaid which I know is popular in Turkey as Cüneyt. Also I know of a great Turkomenistan leader who fought the Russians called Junaid Khan. Also My great grandfathers grave stone is written Turkish (not Persion or Urdu). BTW. Urdu is infact a Turkish word ORDU (army/tent).
North Pakistanis generally love the Turkic people, our language, food and culture contains many many Turkic elements. Even our flag shows our love for the Turkic people with its Ay Yildiz. I am told of stories where my great grandmother and many like her sold their jewellary to send money to help the Turkish war of independence.
I am not saying I am Turkish now, because I guess we maybe have had admixture of Persian, Afghan and maybe even Indian over the years, but my father and I, because of our faces, are often mistaken as Turkish (by Turks!) where we live in London and when we visited Turkey. I loved going to Istanbul for holidays because of the love the People showed me. Honestly compared when I went to Saudi or Morrocco, they just think you are s**t if you are not arab, and they think people from Pakistan or Indian are the lowest human, even though Pakistanis are Muslim like them. Don't get me wrong not all were like that but certainly the majority. Whereas in turkey everyone I met was so friendly, it left a great impression in my heart. Also my cousin and family lived in Tashkent working for the Pakistani airlines, and he only has good memories of Uzbekistan.
I just wonder what all your thoughts are. I feel that all turkish/turkic people are like, if not brothers, then my cousins. I wish I could say BROTHERS as I feel the Turkish blood in my viens, but I fear Many Turks will not except me as so. So even Cousin will make me happy. Maybe many Turks have image of Pakistans as Dark Indian looking people because of TV. But Pakistan was only made in 1947 when a lot of Indian muslims came to live in the area now called Pakistan, infact many of these people now are in the government, like Musharaf whose family is from Delhi in India. The original people of North Pakistan are really similar looking to Turks of Central Asia.
Please tell me your thoughs positive or negative I will not mind, I just would like to know your feeling about your lost cousins (maybe brothers
 ) in Pakistan.Junaid / Cüneyt
|
Replies:
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 08:18
|
Being able to speak a Turkic language would probably be one of the most important things for being considered as a Turkic/Turk. But your father said that your ethnic origin is Turkic from Central Asia, then that's enough for being ethnically Turkic.
What's more, you have a positive feeling towards Turkic Culture. This is also a very, very important thing.
I am more than happy to hear that the people from Northern Pakistan feel closer to Central Asian and Anatolian Turks as Brothers.
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 09:07
|
Junaid,
I am happy to read very beatifully told post. Greetings from Turkiye.
A Turk is who speaks a Turkic Language (and/or has Turkic Culture). This is my idea.
To be a Turk you do not have Turkic blood.
|
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 10:09
Salam Junaid
Don't worry about not being accepted, I would say that majority of Turks would have absolutely no problem accepting you as a Turk infact they'd be intrigued, pretty amazed and touched by your story.
If feel a Turk, have Turkic relatives you have every right to call Turkic peoples your brothers.
I have a question, does anyone in your family still speak Turkic?
I remember reading recently that when the recent earthquake struch Pakistan, some Turkish red crescent aid workers who came to the region to try help with the devastation caused by it were shocked to come across Turkish villages near the Himalayan mountains.
Pakistani's and Turks have very good relations, I remember my grandfather telling me that there are many brothers in London, when I asked who, he said Pakistani's and said there good people
 ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 10:32
This is new to me now. I thought your ethnic background was English.
|
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 10:42
IMHO, Botherhood or tie should be mainly based on the common early history, then comes common culture, language etc.
A man has two sons, one was raised in France the other was raised in England, they don't speak the same language, they don't have exactly the same culture, aren't they brothers?
Of course, we also agree they became brothers and sisters with respective family members, due to the same culture and same language.
For a group of people, most of the time the common language is the reason of common history, that is why we always tend to judge by linguitical factor, which is the easiest to be determined.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 10:45
|
Hidden_Face
This is new to me now. I thought your ethnic background was English. I'm Brittish offically
 Ethnic background is a long story  ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Cuneyt
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2007 at 11:50
|
Thank you everyone who posted, you will not believe how happy I am to get your responses. Really I am sitting at my computer with tears in my eyes. I can really feel your brotherly comradship. I think maybe you may never know how all you few words of acceptance and friendship have touched my heart and very soul. Why do I feel this way? Why do I feel this connection? Again I can only explain it with the English Saying "Blood its thicker than water". Actually as to the language question, I am told my Great-grandfather spoke Turkish, Persian and Pashtu. My grandfather lost the Turkish and Persian he spoke only Pashtu and Hindko. My father lost Pashtu and spoke Hindko, Urdu and English. I lost Hindko and most Urdu and speak English. My wife is also ethnically different from me. So my Kids will probably only speak English. Kind of complicated I know, but just about every generation speaks a different language due to circumstances and mothers!! Maybe my family is like original nomads!
Alhumdulillah we all have been and are still Muslim.So I guess linguistically it is a difficult problem to say I am Turkic. But how about African Americans in America. They have lost their African language and mixed somewhat with other races in US but they still call themselves African-Americans and feel close to African cuture. Also the case of England. England like North Pakistan was invaded many times by the Romans, Vikings, Anglo-Saxons and Normans. English is a mixture of all these languages plus the indiginous language of the celts and aboriginal people of Britain (the same as Urdu being a mixture of Sanskrit, Turkish, Persion and Arabic) But most Englishmen will Identify themselves as Anglo-Saxons who were from continental Europe NEVER as celts (who are now mainly the Irish and Welsh) Even though their language is not German.
So in that sense I guess I feel I can Identify myself as Turkic or at least related to Turks. Thank you again to everone for their warm feeling towards my story. Really I can say all my encounters with Turks whether in realtime and now in cyberspace have been most friendly and brotherly. Turks have the real understanding of Muslim Brotherhood. I feel quite sad and slightly disguisted now when I think of my encounters with many Arabs, and their superiority complex. Truely the last 1000 years of Golden Islam have belonged to the Turks.
I hope you can teach me many more detailed things about the wonderful culture of the the Turkic people.
Junaid / Cüneyt
|
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 17-Jun-2007 at 10:20
Shorten it then. What's your connection to Turkishness?
|
Posted By: Cuneyt
Date Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 00:29
|
I found an interesting article on Turkish Language and Urdu called:
TURKIC LANGUAGES AND LEXICAL SIMILARITIES OF TURKISH AND URDU - An Etymological Approach LINK: http://www.saag.org/papers18/paper1737.html |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 05:55
|
^I think there is none mabey a few loanwords
------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 10:55
 Its very interesting.
The author sums it up brilliantly
NEED FOR GREATER SOCIO-CULTURAL TIES BETWEEN THE PEOPLE OF INDIA AND THE PEOPLES OF CENTRAL ASIA AND TURKEY.
The Indian Sub-continant and Turkic lands have a long history of interaction. I know that Buddhists from India spread Buddhist teachings among Turkic peoples, the Turk-Shahis were Buddhist (I think they were Turks) Also alot of Turkic leaders had states in India. I notice, Indian Tandoori is popular in Central Asia and even Turkey aswell as Tandir, there are quite alot of similar dishes. Musically, I know, Amir Khushrow was influential in Hindustani classical music and Qawalli, also I think there are some Pakistani rythms in Turkic music.
There should be more studies and co-operation, Turkic countries and Pakistan have really good relations both pollitically and through the communities.
It's great to read your last post bro
 Do you have some family traditions, cultural aspects which you feel are similar to things you see among other Turkic peoples? ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 18:13
|
Hi; guys this is my first post, I am familair with central asia, I spent two years between some of them, I think india and central asia have affected each other too much.I will write about this later.
------------- |
Posted By: Cuneyt
Date Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 10:57
|
I found another link giving some very good information on the link between Urdu and Turkish and in fact Hindustani.
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/turkish.html - http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/turkish.html
Although I would say that as the writer is an Indian he obviously trys to put a stong a link with Hindi/Hindustani. I would dispute that as I think Hindustani is infact an ofshoot language of Urdu and Hindi. Hindustani being much more Sanskrit based. Hindi was heavily promoted by the British. to Quote from http://www.theurdulanguage.com/History.htm - http://www.theurdulanguage.com/History.htm
"The fall of the Urdu language began in the late 1800’s. Coincidentally it was the same time when the Muslims lost control of the region to the British after ruling (majority) Hindu India for over 1200 years. The imperialist power gave great importance to the spread of English and chose Hindustani as the medium language for the average man. Hindustani was the language mixed between Urdu and Hindi (with the scale slanted heavily towards the latter). It was used as a tool to merge the Hindus and the Muslims into a single identity, servants of Britain."
Infact the Urdu and Hindustani Spoken in India underwent a similar process as Turkish in the Ataturk language reforms. Where Turkish was purged of most of its Arabic and Perian words. The government of India tried to take Hindustani back to its original Hindi words and many Arabic, Persian and Turkish were removed as they were seen as words introduced by the Muslim Conquerers. Ironic that Turkish is seen as an Islamic language when compared to Ataturks reforms
 . Infact an Urdu speaker will hardly be able to understand Doordashan, which is the state run Indian TV because of all the Sanskrit/Hindi words that have replaced the "Muslim" language words. Also it must be noted theat the "High" Urdu of the elite classes was never similar to Hindi or Hindustani. For example how many of the laymen Hindi speakers in India would be able to easily understand Mirza Ghalib. Also to keep the Turkish theme, the traditional term of enderment for an older man in Pakistan is Khan saab, try calling an Indian that and you may well get some very strange looks. Anyway this is another discussion that doesn't really belong here. I just wanted to make clear the point that Pakistan is very different from India. It bores me when people try to make out that India and Pakistan are the same (something many Indians I know like to do). If they were so similar why did they split? It's like when people confuse Turks (from Turkey) as Arabs and insist that Turkey is a Middle-Eastern Country. They are not the same. And before anyone replies saying I am bashing Indians because I have links with Pakistan. I can categorically say I am not. I have all the respect in the world for India and Indian/Hindu Culture and what it has given the world. It is just Turks are not Arabs and Pakistanis are not Indians and Urdu is not Hindi....That was my point.In my last post I gave a link talking about the lexical or Vocabulary similarities between Turkish and Urdu but it seems there is some research going on comapring the similarities in Syntax of these two languages too:
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/sassn/issues/512/node26.html - http://www.ling.upenn.edu/sassn/issues/512/node26.html
Finally something more lighthearted, a Pakistani boy singing a Turkish song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlVBJRuuBcg&mode=related&search - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlVBJRuuBcg&mode=related&search =
Also another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKND_-kFvss - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKND_-kFvss
 |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 12:48
|
I wouldn't equalize Turkic influences in Pakistan to Turkish. No doubt, Turkic influences in Pakistan are huge. But these Turks came from Central Asia not from Anatolia. Babur spoke and wrote in Chagatai language, which is also sometimes called "the old Uzbek language". The Turkic connections of Pakistan lay primarily in Central Asia, where modern Uzbeks live.
Turkey is quite far from Pakistan. I just mean that although Uzbek and Turkish culture have a lot of things in common, they are not the same. Uzbek language for example is in Southeastern branch of Turkic languages, while Turkish in Southwestern (Oghuz) branch. In other words, Turkic doesn't mean Turkish per se. ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης 
|
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 16:01
And, those Turks came to Anatolia from Central Asia. Turkish is Turkic, among Turks there is no distinction, Turki is the language of Ali Sher Navoi, Babur Khan and Suleyman the Magnificent.
Babur spoke Turki, read Baburnama he says it himself, these terms are just misnomers.
Turkic connection to Pakistan lies further back than the Timurids (not Ozbeks, Shaybani laid foundations of Ozbek state), the Turk-Shahis (I'm not certain about their history?), the Gaznivids, the Delhi Sultanate, Khilijis, Tughlak dynasty, QutubShahi dynasty, famous historical leaders like Raziya Sultana, Iltutmush, Aybek etc
Turkey is quite far from Pakistan. I just mean that although Uzbek and Turkish culture have a lot of things in common, they are not the same. Uzbek language for example is in Southeastern branch of Turkic languages, while Turkish in Southwestern (Oghuz) branch. In other words, Turkic doesn't mean Turkish per se.">
Distance is not an issue, if your a Turk your a Turk, doesn't matter if your from Eastern Turkistan or Prizen in Kosovo. This doesn't mean that they're all identical, however, they share this common identity.
Cuneyt was expressing his bond to Turks and that there is some connections in Pakistan with Turkic regions.
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 16:05
|
[quote]
In my last post I gave a link talking about the lexical or Vocabulary similarities between Turkish and Urdu but it seems there is some research going on comapring the similarities in Syntax of these two languages too:
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/sassn/issues/512/node26.html - http://www.ling.upenn.edu/sassn/issues/512/node26.html
Finally something more lighthearted, a Pakistani boy singing a Turkish song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlVBJRuuBcg&mode=related&search - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlVBJRuuBcg&mode=related&search =
Also another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKND_-kFvss%5b/quote - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKND_-kFvss[/quote ]
Nice posts.
I think the Pakistani boy came second in that competition ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 19:52
I agree with sarmat.Turkey even had minimum influence in central Asian Turks and even Iranian Turkic Nomads. I have not heard the Turkish people made toward east more than city of Tabriz in N.W. of Persia.
Bulldog I have seen many of your posts, please note that Turkic is a family of languages, like slavic, and t like slavic people, Turks have diffrent nations and background. ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 20:13
Do you have any idea how ridiculous and unlogical that entire sentance.
Do you think that Turks of Turkey landed on a rocket from the moon or something.
Let's go through the basics.
Turks migrated from Central Asia to Turkey, they also went to Pakistan, they also ruled Iran for around 1000 years almost interrupted...etc...etc
So your entire comment doesn't make any sense. Central Asian Turks are the reason why Turkey is Turkish, they're the reason there are an estimated 25 million Turks in Iran and why Azerbaijan is Turkish. Turks of Turkey made there way there via Tabriz.
And I've seen many of your Mr "Arash", it won't be long till your banned for the 100th time now will it... ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 02:03
Turks are one nation including peoples,not many nations.Turkic is not just a family of languages,today being is a Turk is lingual but this because of mixing with other peoples(so we look pyhsically different),we are the same nation. There aren't any Iranian Turkic nomads,just Altaic.
|
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 02:20
Is it your own new theory?
Based on your logic all the people on the earth are one nation, since we orginate from the same ancestors in Africa, anyway.
How come all the diversity of nations and ethnicities exist? Different Turkic nations have so different history, culture and background that one could hardly call them one nation.
The biggest similarity between Turkic ethnicities is the their languages which are related to each other but still they are different and very often not mutually intelligible.
The closest pattern for your theory could be the Arabs. One nation, living in many countries. But this theory is also very weak. Although at least a standard classical version of Arabic exist for all the Arabs.
But there is no any "standard Turkic" for all the Turks. You have to study Kazakh or Uzbek if you are from Turkey and want to speak to those people and vice versa.
I am afraid that the realilty is too different from you idealized thinking.
P.S. I think qaraniq by Iranian Turkic nomades just meant Turkic people living in modern Iran. ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
|
Posted By: Cuneyt
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 07:27
|
If Arabs can call themselves Arabs because they identify themselves as so and unify themselves as so, and Europeans can call themselves Europeans and Identify themselves as so and unify themselves on this basis.
Then why do some of you have a problem with Turks identifying themselves as Turks and feeling a kinship with each other. Turks all over the world have a feeling for each other that includes culture, shared background, food, customs, history and language. I don't understand why some people in this forum are so against this idea and want to prove otherwise.
I think only Turks themselves have the right to identify themselves and on what basis. Just the same as other people like Europeans, Arabs, Christians, Muslims, Slavs, Africans or whoever have their right and their own criteria.
Yes I know we are all humans and I am not saying one group of humans is better than another, but just as you make your closest friends with people like yourself, who probably share the same interests and have things in common with, sharing Ethnicities can be the same.
Socio-Political nations and countries are rather a new phenomenom, before that people would group themselves as "peoples" and "ethnicities" of which Turks are surely one!
|
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 08:04
No, were all one race as we all have same ancestors in Africa.
Nation is a socio-cultural grouping of people who have linguistic, cultural, historical bonds and share a similar identity.
All large nations have various people's and cultures due to the large geographical area which they inhabit.
Arabs in Algeria are different to Arabs in Kuwait but they're still Arab.
It depends which Turkic groups your referring to.
Most Turks trace ancestory back to the same Turks, have similar legends, came originally from the same areas.
Linguistically three main dialects are Oghuz, Qarluk, Kipchak. Oghuz has the largest number of speakers around 120 million with mutual integibility, there is relatively high integibility with Qarluk but lower with Kipchak.
Arabs implemented, Fusha standardsed Arabic.
Turks can do the same, some Turkic leaders are keen on having this developed then its up to the states to implement.
During the Soviet era it was against their interests to allow Turks doing this and getting closer together, that's why most intellects in the Turkic world were killed and extradited during this era. But now its ended, Turk isn't "taboo" anymore, it will take a few generations still but there are more and more voices from "Turkiston" calling for a union of states in the region.
Exactly. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 08:32
Dear Cuneyt, I'm sorry I didn't want to heart your warm feelings towards Turkic people and their unity. I just wanted to point out that Turkic people are very diverse and different in their cultures, which of course is very good.
So, my idea, was simply, that Turkic influences in Pakistan are not Turkish influences, because Turkey has a distinct culture of its own, influenced heavily by Near Eastern Arabian kingdoms, and even Greeks and Europeans. That's why you can not simply say that Turkic in Pakistan=Turkish.
That was my point. It is wonderful nevertheless that Turkic people in different parts of the world feel their affinity and are interested in their culture. ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
|
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 08:43
Yeah, but the first homo sapienses definetely were coming from one linguistic, cultural and hostorical bond so they were one nation in the very beginning.
I still doubt that the big Turk nation exists. Turkic is a designation for a language family: like Slavic, Germanic, Semitic etc.
In order, to know the the real attitude of people of different Turkic ehtnicites to the existence of the big Turkic nation, we should probably make a poll, whether they consider themselves for example Azeri and Uzbek first and then Turks or they consdider themselves Turks at the first place. I, however, doubt that most of them will make choise number one.
------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
|
Posted By: Cuneyt
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 10:42
|
Dear Sarmat12, thank you for you post but you can be rest assured that you did not hurt my warm feelings to Turkish people as you put it. This is a forum where we can discuss and surely have differing opinions so I appriciate your ideas even though I may not agree with them, nothing for anyone to get hurt about. Actually if you read my previous posts you will find I never once mentioned that "Turkic in Pakistan=Turkish" as you wrote. I see that you prescribe to the Turkic Vs. Turkish termanology, which is fine, but many would disagree and call a Turk a Turk. So I understand the point you are coming from and where this idea stems from, and I am well aware that the greatest Turk (or as you prefer Turkic) influnce in Pakistan is of the Chagtai branch if you are talking about language and direct descendants. but remember that the area that is now Pakistan has always had close links with the Turks of Turkey and the Ottoman Empire too. The Muslims rulers acceptied the Ottoman Caliphs as their spiritual leaders for many centuries. Also since the USSR made contacts between central Asian Turks very difficult for the people of Pakistan they continued to have a very close relationship with the people of Turkey. You can easily find information on the concerns of Turkish learders such as Enver Pasha and Mustapha Kamal to the freedom of Muslims in the Indian subcontinent from the British. Also the help the people of Pakistan sent to the people of Turkey during their war of independence. Then later the CENTO block was formed in the 1950s. Many politcal learders of Turkey have studied in Pakistan and many from Pakistan have studied in Turkey, including the present Leader of Pakistan. In literature, add the poems by Mohammed Iqbal about Turkey and the poems of Fazil Hüsnü Daglarca about Pakistan. Even if you ask Pakistanis today which country is close to their hearts and the most brotherly they will say Turkey and maybe many Turkish people would say the same about Pakistan. But my point in starting this thread was not to say Pakistan equals Turkey the country or that Turkey has had the greatest "Turkic" influence on Pakistan, please read my first post again. On a side point, Sarmat12 you said: "So, my idea, was simply, that Turkic influences in Pakistan are not Turkish influences, because Turkey has a distinct culture of its own, influenced heavily by Near Eastern Arabian kingdoms, and even Greeks and Europeans". If I were to be cheeky I would say that infact makes the Pakistani experience even closer to the experince of the people of Turkey, as I am sure you are aware the Greeks were also in Northern Paksitan for Hundreds of years also the Europeans as you put it were there to in the form of the British and the Muhammed bin Qasim the Arab also conquered Pakistan and gave his Arab influence. Also both peoples of Pakistan and Turkey are prodominately Muslim and have a Muslim culture. Both are Jamuriyat and they have similar looking flags! Of course I still never said in any of my posts Pakistan = Turkey, just we have close ties by ancient historical empires and in relatively modern times too. I totally agree with Bulldog where he says: "Turkic connection to Pakistan lies further back than the Timurids (not Ozbeks, Shaybani laid foundations of Ozbek state), the Turk-Shahis (I'm not certain about their history?), the Gaznivids, the Delhi Sultanate, Khilijis, Tughlak dynasty, QutubShahi dynasty, famous historical leaders like Raziya Sultana, Iltutmush, Aybek etc." "Distance is not an issue, if your a Turk your a Turk" Thanks to all for keeping this thread alive, I am finding it facinating!
|
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 13:56
Turks were in Pakistan before they were in Turkey, therefore this is pointless. Turks who influenced Pakistan also made Turkey Turkey, the country is Turkey, official language Turkish, identity Turk because of these Turks.
Ofcourse there are elements of other cultures which have been fused into the dominant culture however, this is not part of this discussion.
In Iran, Turks are called Turks, there not called Azeri, Azari were a completely different people who spoke an Iranic language, its historically incorrect to call them Azari.
In Afganistan, Turks are called Turks.
Tajiks call Ozbek's, Turks, etc etc
There is no point in denying that they're Turks, also comparisons are wrong as they are not identical and have different factors.
Infact, leaders of Turkic states like Sultan Nazarbayev of Kazakistan goes as far to state that they're the original Turks and that the Turks West of Caspian Sea Turks due to them.
Turkmenbashi in the Ruhnama writes that the Selcuk and Ottoman Empires are actually they're history and that they're the Turks that founded it, meaning they're the reason why today places like Turkey and Azerbaycan are Turks.
They are correct, the only reason there are Turks West of the Caspian sea is because of Turks who conquered the region. Its unlogical to claim that Central Asian Turks arn't Turks as they're the entire reason why there is a single Turk in Azerbaycan or Turkey or Balkans etc
Geographically there are Azeri Turk, Turkiye Turk, Cypriot Turk, Afgan Turk etc
I agree.
Also didn't Pakistan and Turkey sign Regional Cooperation for Development along with Iran.
Pakistan and Turkey have great relations polliticall and socially, also they have both been building ties with the newly independant Turkic states now the Iron curtain has been lifted.
Historically, Pakistan, Afganistan, Central Asia and Turkey (Ottoman connection) have many ties.
Pakistan-Turkey relations could build these ties again and promote co-operation. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 14:45
|
p.s Cuneyt
I read that Qutubshahi's were a Oghuz-Turkmen Turkic group who migrated to the Pakistani area, is this true? ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 16:35
Great, thank you for understanding my posts right. I totally agree with you. My idea was just that different Turkic cultures are diverse by themselves. ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
|
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 16:39
Again I just meant that of course all Tatars, Ozbeks, Kazakhs, Azeri, Turkish are Turks.
But Tatars are not Ozbeks, Kazakhs are not Azeri and Turkmen are not Turkish.
That's it ! ------------- ΣαυÏομάτης
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 19:46
|
Dear Buldog , cool down , I am not Arash, be a little more creative,lol.
I just saw a post about your back ground , I was wondering of you are a Turk, you know what's the meaning of being Turk for me.
anyhow I'd be in Istanbul in July maybe I can find more about your defination of Turks there.
Turks have diffrent nations, they do not share a common history in last 500 years and turkish Turks are different from Iranian Turks or Ozbeks.
salut old buddy ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 19:48
|
By the way , I forgot to say that the tallest guy in out town , somewher in Canda, is a Pakistani Turkmen, I can communicate with him without any problem but only in english ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 20:30
They share a common 2000 years of history
They migrated to distant lands from each other and some lost contact for centuries. However, they retained their identity.
However, were now in a new age, the world is much smaller, before it would take months to get from Kashgar to Istanbul but now its takes a few hours and with telecommunication contact takes a few seconds.
There are differences among Turks but it doesn't change the fact they're Turks, I don't understand why you expect everybody to be "identicle", go to any country and there are regional differences.
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Kerimoglu
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 13:04
|
Hehe, look, this what you call a jealouseness
Man the wounds we injured in your history will never heal till armageddon, even if you claim so.
 Turks, we are and were the most energetic people of central asia, have aerned pretty enough enemies and rivals throughout the history, and today, adding up 1 guy and his family to our ranks, will not weaken Persians man, come on.
Also, if I call myself a Turk, then I am a Turk, especially when I do have all the qualifications that a Turk do. What the hell you have to do with this???? ------------- History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 16:57
Hi Kerimoglu,who is the persian guy, do you mean me?,lol, I am not Persian bro, and persian history like many other old nations has many up and downs, Turks mixed with Persians in a way which they are almost same, did you hear this one:
Bork siz bas olmaz
Fors siz turk olmaz.
I aree that the war between Persians and Turks caused the lots of Pain for Persians( ofcourse they lost the game 1000 years ago), but also persian won the cultural war and the large group of Turks in Iran (20m-=3 times of the population of your country ) are assimilating with speed of a rocket, I visited Iran and I know even in Tebriz the people speak persian with their kids. Turks and Iranians and pakistanies need each other to make a better life for their nations.
Also could you pleas tell me specifically what do you mean by all qualification a turks does, is that what you learn in Azerbaijani high schools?
serefe qardas
------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 17:12
|
Look "Shinai" stop trying to hijack the post with this nonsense again. Persians won no cultural war, Persians have their culture and Turks have their culture and these two have fused aswell and both are wonderfull. What is wrong with you, this complex you have is so deep, we can't have any post without you sticking some Turk-Persian conflict into it. Look, this post isn't about Persians, nobody is writing bad things about Persians, what is your problem. And let's do some simple maths, 1000 years ago hardly any Turks in North West Iran, today 25 million...You see, there is no need for silly conspiracy stories or subjective fantasy stories, the Facts speak for themselves. You go to Tebriz and see for yourself if they're assimilating or if every-year Turkish awareness is growing in the area "Mankurt"
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 17:24
|
Back to the topic.
Cuneyt I found this on Wikipedia
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 18:56
|
The Nortehrn pakistan is a part of central Asia not India. Saka, kushans white Huns, oguz tribes have left a significant influence there, the tribes men of the northern Pakistan kept many essential part of central asians and Turkic culture. zinde bad pakistan------------- |
Posted By: Cuneyt
Date Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 11:14
|
There are many, but these are the major Turkish Empires Covering Northern Pakistan:  Yāmīn al-Dawlah Abd al-Qāṣim Maḥmūd Ibn Sebük Tegīn
Tīmūr bin Taraghay Barlas
 Zāhir ud-Dīn Mohammad Babur Khan
Salaam Bulldog, Thank you for the info you posted up. Yes indeed the Qutbshahi sultans who moved up to Delhi and then went to set up a Deccan Empire were indeed Oghuz-Turkmen from the Turkmenistan-Armenia region. Their tribe was the Qara-Qoyunlu.
|
Posted By: Kerimoglu
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 03:25
|
Lol qaraniq, I never told you're a Sarmatr, it is just every time Turks open a topic and say someone is Tur, even though that someone is not Persian, Persian member appear and say they were not Turks. That I have seen for 3 years that I have been in this forum
BTW, I also was in Iran and I saw that no one talks Persian in Tabriz, and whoever talks Persian there, Azerbaijan turks do not consider him normal. ------------- History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow! |
Posted By: niki
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 11:07
|
To be Turk means to have Turkic genealogy, (Kyrgyz, Kazakh etc) otherwise why we must know our seven fathers and genealogical list is the most valuable thing in any Turkic family. Language is not a factor. ------------- Tenir El Umai |
Posted By: BAWIR$AQ
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 21:59
|
niki,
The traditionion of keeping the family genealogy (shajara) is lost in many Turkic ethnic groups, where language became the common denominator of "Turkicness". ------------- "Malım – janımnıñ sadağası, Janım – arımnıñ sadağası" "Sacrifice your riches for your life, Sacrifice your life for your honor" |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 01:35
|
İf it is tru,what will we do about Mongolian-speaking Turkic peoples?(like Yellow Uighurs).They don't speak Turkish,won't we accept them as Turks? ------------- |
Posted By: Kerimoglu
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 05:37
|
Nop, geneology is not a proof, it is never a proof to ones nationality, but rather race.
The main thing is Language, Traditions, General Culture, Moral, Religion and so on. ------------- History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow! |
Posted By: kurt
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 06:38
|
cuneyt, as a turk from Turkey, i would tell you that i personally consider you a turk and that therefore i feel a certain kinship towards you that i feel with every other turk on this planet. I am sure that the people of Turkey would share this attitude towards you.
Turkey has been accepting central asian turks for a long time; uighurs from china, and kirghiz fleeing from the soviets in the 80's, perhaps one day in the future you should apply for citizenship in there, i am certain they would give it to you. Just wait five or so years first, right now there aren't too many job opportunities but with the rate at which the economy is rising you should be able to live a comfortable life there in the future.
I am moved by your story. Ne mutlu turkum diyene!
|
Posted By: niki
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 07:54
|
2 http://www.allempires.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=5280&FID=51 - BAWIR$AQ
But still genealogy is something like entrance to Turkic (any Nomadic I believe) world. Genealogy could be falsificated, it is something like granting "citizenship". I don't think that some Russian will be accepted as Kazakh even if he would forget Russian and he and his children will speak in Kazakh.
What do you think, who are Moghuls? (I think many Turks in Pakistan decsendants of Moghuls). Moghuls considered as Turks not only because they were Turkizied but also (more important) because they were included in All-Turkic genealogy as Turkic ethnic group. Here I am talking not about particular person, but about persons who identified themselves with particular ethnic groups and nations.
Even if Turks from Turkiye do not preserved a tradition of keeping genealogic tree list in their families, Turks thenselves as ethnic group included in All-turkic genealogy. I mean, it is not only "inside" self-recognition of themselves as turks, but also such "Turks" must have "outside" recognition of the rest Turkic world. Otherwise any "quls" could call themselves as Turks. This name is not for anybody ------------- Tenir El Umai |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 18:07
|
Genealogy is very important factor to be a Turk, and Culture is also very important, a person needs to have bothe but because genealogy only applies for nomadic people, because after being settlesd the relationships change nobody would keep the Shajara Name.
To define a Turk an academic aproach is the language factor, because nobody knows who were the original Turks, and what was their genetic pattern,
if you go with the defination of noadic culture and Turkic language still an Afshar Turkmen from Turkey or a Qashqai from Iran will be different form a Kazak.
I have a question for niki, do you consider yourself better that who ever you call "Quls". remember that quls also used to enslve the otherside too. I guess understanding the human being is from the same origin is very important, do not miss that point if not you gonno trapped inside yourself.
------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 18:52
|
Niki, is this the same 7 generation custom shared in Kazakistan aswell?
By geneology do you mean for example, if a family belonged to a Turkic clan of 7 generations?
Language is an important factor, also if you mean geneology as above it can be important, for example if you belong to the Afshars then obviously your a Turk as they belong to the Oghuz Turks.
It starts getting pretty complicated.
Language, culture, self-perception, acceptance, identity, historical ties and bonds etc are all important factors that can make somebody a Turk.
Also like our friend Cuneyt, somebody who has traced his descendancy and today still feels a connection to Turks obviously has the right to be a Turk.
But nobody is better-worse, pure-unpure than each other, these terms are divisive, offensive and biggoted.
Also Niki, I have read and watched some documentaries about the "Turkatalar" or Kirgizistan who say they are descendants of the Gok-Turks, do you have information about them? ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: niki
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 02:31
No I am not. But our ancestors did. This one (knowledge about someone's origin, clan, tribe, el, 7 fathers) was the control of "citizenship" and kin. If some "qul" (here it is something like "stranger") could not answer the question about his 7 fathers, he would be robbed or even killed without any consequences for brigands. "7 fathers" is symbolic and real protection in that uncertain world.
Again look at my post more carefully. I wrote that if family did not preserved their genealogic tree, we must determine them as Turks by their self-identification. If they identify themselves with some ethnic group which belongs to All-Turkic genealogic line, we can accept them as Turks. It is something like super-national conciousness. I consider that Turks in Pakistan mostly have super-national identification with Muslim, but not with Pan-Turkic identity.
What about Kurds in Turkey, they can speak Turkish as well as many of us, but even Turks themselves ask of them "Memleket?", if answer located as far as east of Malatya, - they are not Turks, isn't it?
------------- Tenir El Umai |
Posted By: niki
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 02:50
1. Yes. Genealogy, preserving information about 7 fathers was a kind of unconscious and unintentional resistance against assimilation in Soviet period. Many Kyrgyzs and Kazakhs in cities spoke in Russian and little Turkic, but still many of them knew their roots and at least they knew their tribe. It made a difference between US and THEM (the rest Soviet citizens)
2. We can talk about family tree (narrow meaning) and common genealogy of all Turkic peoples (wide), for both we use one Arab word - shajara.
3. Yes, of course. Do not forget that genealogy always falsificated. In this case we cannot talk about purity of nation.
4. Sorry I did not understand the question. A lot of Turkic groups try to proof their origin from Kok-Turks, but the Kyrgyz. As for the Kyrgyz we never say that we are descendants of Kok-Turks, Huns (Hsioung-nu) or somebody else, because the Kyrgyz mentioned with them at the same hostorical period. You can find the information that the Kyrgyz originated from Ting-Ling, red Di in China and Karasuk culture, I mean that the Kyrgyz try to find their origin at period before Hsiung-nu, before 201 BC ------------- Tenir El Umai |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 08:20
Sorry for not making myself more clear. I watched this documentary about Kirgizistan precisely the "Osh" region, where they spoke to the "Turkatalar" who are said to be descended from the GokTurks and have traced this.
You can watch it here.
http://www.turksoylaipekyolu.com/tr/IpekyoluVideo/a.907.html - http://www.turksoylaipekyolu.com/tr/IpekyoluVideo/a.907.html ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: niki
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 09:11
It is because of interview was given to Turkish chanel, something like Viva Panturkism, Yashasyn turkler Birligi. Even in school books, there is clear division between Turks (KokTurks) and Kyrgyz. ------------- Tenir El Umai |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 15:06
|
In the video there interviewing that specific group, it doesn't claim all "Kirgiz" are GokTurk, just these Turkatalar which it says there are 200,000 of claim descendancy from them. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 19:15
Haha, a kick-ass answer from Niki. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 07:58
Haha its the little kid in the corner poking his head up again...
Anyway let's ignore his childish antics and get back to the topic.
Hyderabad
Qutubshahi tombs in India
A pencil sketch rendition of photographs. A dedication to my father-in-law who passed away last month. Hyderbad was his city. The tombs of the seven Qutub Shahi rulers reminds one of the glorious past of Hyderabad. The tombs are very close to the famed Golconda fort. The tombs are now in disrepair but once were inlaid with beautiful blue and green mosaic. Restoration and preservation was initiated by Salar Jung III. These tombs are a great example of Persian and Turkish architecture. Sarojini Naidu, the Nightingale of India, penned a poem,
 http://www.pbase.com/sunil6865/qutub_shahi_tombs - http://www.pbase.com/sunil6865/qutub_shahi_tombs
[img[http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1500_1599/golconda/qutbshahitombs/qutbshahitomb.jpg[/img]   ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 09:18
According to OzTurkler site, Qutubshahis are from the Baharlu branch of the Qaraqoyunlu
http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0003/0003_02_18.htm%20%5b/quote - http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0003/0003_02_18.htm
The Baharlu belong to the "Yiva" branch of the Oghuz Turks. The Yiva have an interesting history. Sultan KilijArslan was at head of the Turkish Oghuz Yiva tribe army and set up his capital at Nicea todays Iznik and fought off the First Crusade aswell as re-establishing the Selcuk of the Rum.
Today there are "Yiva" Turks in Anamur region in Turkey
After Seljuks conquered the castle of Anamur, the earea came under the dominance of Turks. The settlement, coming under dominance of Karamanoğulları after Seljuks became powerless, became a land of Ottoman Empire in the second half of l5th century.
The Turkish clans settling in Anamur belong to the YİVA clan of Oğuz Turks. One of the great foundings in İç-İl was the YİVA tribe at the time of 2. Bayezid. YİVAs in İç-İl are divided into two as minor and major. It is registered that there were forty villages belonging to YİVA clan in this period. http://www.anamur.gen.tr/eng/anmureng.htm - http://www.anamur.gen.tr/eng/anmureng.htm
This village is Yiva in Kayseri
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuvali_k%C3%B6y%C3%BC - http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuvali_k%C3%B6y%C3%BC
Also Denizli, Igdir and there are other regions they're in, if you can get hold of a translation of "Faruk Sumer Oguzlar" book it could help.
Yiva Turks are found in Northern Syria, Northern Iraq, in Iran the "Baharlu" are a part of the Qashqai nomadic Turks.
  If you visit Turkey again Cuneyt, you could ask some authorities in the region and they may look into it for you. You never know, you could be distantly, distantly, distanyl related
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: niki
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 10:51
I do not think that we have some group that claims themselves as offspring of KokTurks. I think it was personal opinion of some individual who belonged to that tribe and who think in such way. Again I think it is because of interview was given to Turks.
We have Qypchaq tribe and sometimes members of this tribe consider themselves as separate group from the Kyrgyz. It was accident (for us it is!) when one such guy registered as Qypchaq (not the Kyrgyz) in Batken region. It is because (Fergana) Qypchaqs existed as separate El (tribal union with "personal" independent shajara) untill the middle of XIX century, when they were exterminated and shared between Kyrgyz and Uzbeks. If we trust to Klyashtorny, Qypchaqs - late ethnic name of Sirs. Sir was a people (El) which created Second Turkic Qaghanate together with Celestial Turks. If Qypchaq tribe of the Kyrgyz could be considered as Sir from Orkhon-Yenisei inscriptions, we can say that some tribe of the Kyrgyz (Qypchaq) is descendants of Sirs (not Kok Turks). ------------- Tenir El Umai |
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 10:59
What are you talking about "Bulldog"? First, answer my question. Are you ashamed of your background? Who the hell are you to speak for Turks? Aren't you a "British" whose knowledge about Turkey and Turkish people limited by some "Museums" and Pan Turkist websites? |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 11:11
|
Go spam somewhere else.
I don't need to go around screaming I'm a Turk, I'm comfortable with my identity
Now go play your silly games somewhere else, you don't contribute to any posts unless your trying to convince some Europeans who hate you that your like them...whose ahasmed of their background hmm
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 11:18
|
Back to the topic.
Pak-Turk schools building up ties, hopefully it will be a sucessfull project and Pakistani and Turks will get to know each other more and develop stronger ties than there even is now.
http://www.pakturk.org/index.asp.htm - http://www.pakturk.org/index.asp.htm ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 11:24
|
Stating that your knowledge about Turkish people is extremely poor doesn't mean "Spamming", dear "Bulldog". |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 12:44
|
Personally I never really liked Spam. Too many nitrates, ham, pork, sugar and looks like rations.
I see that you guys have been eating it over the last four posts though! ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 15:44
|
Cunyet, Do you happen to be from the Northern Areas of Pakistan or from NWFP? If you are from the Northern Areas ancestraly then you would be classified as Dardic and the Northern Areas historically have not been a part of India but rather a part of Kashmir. Urdu although has a lot of 'borrowed' words from turkish/farsi/arabic it still however is an indic language and its origins are not in Pakistan but in the central India. If you are from the Northern Areas of Pakistan you should speak a dardic language and not an indic language. I myself am an ethnic kashmiri from the vale of kashmir and also classified as dardic. I recently got a DNA ancestry test done and my results put me in the haplogroup J2a1b which is only found in the levnat,mesopotamia and Anatolia areas. Although I have never heard of any ancestral origins from these areas from my family, my DNA results must show some common ancestry of the Northern Parts of the subcontinent. I have only heard of stories of central asian origins from family. I'm trying to find out the origins of the people of the northern parts of the subcontinent as we clearly look different to the rest of the subcontinent, speak non-indic languages (I speak a dardic language, although I can speak urdu too) and have different culture. Although it is certain that dardic people are not Indic, finding the origins is proving tough (for me). ------------- |
Posted By: AFG-PaShTuN
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 06:50
This kid is Pashtun [ethnic Afghan], i had no idea he could be so talented, he's been on Afghan channel many times, and yeah it's new to me that he can speak Turkish too. Btw, any of you know what this show was of? Like was it Turkish idol kind of thing or something else? ------------- 
|
Posted By: MarcoPolo
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2007 at 19:01
| hey.. im not turkish.. but I know that regardless of the fact that I dont have turkish blood or cant speak turkish, I feel Turkish people are our brothers/sisters regardless! Pakistan and Turkey have great relations that go beyond mere words.. its palpable. I remember once I went to the US for a few weeks, and I was sitting in my hotel loby, and this couple & their 4 kids (i had no idea where they were from) came over and asked me where I was from... I was like Pakistan... and they were ecstatic and replied 'were from TUrkey!!!''' next thing I know.. we were all hugging , and kissing on the cheaks! and we went out to dinner! It was a great feeling of mutual respect... cant really explain it! I had a similar story when i went to China also. Its funny how things work.. I wonder what those Pakistani's, who have turk blood(northern areas/hazaras/chugtai etc..) in them feel when they meet some1 from turkey... they must be dancing on the ceiling lol!! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 22:27
|
Hi my name is cüneyt too.by the way junaid i am really happy to see my ''adaş'' (sharing the same name) from pakistan.i am really touched what you told and what we share.
junaid said:I just wonder what all your thoughts are. I feel that all turkish/turkic people are like, if not brothers, then my cousins. I wish I could say BROTHERS as I feel the Turkish blood in my viens, but I fear Many Turks will not except me as so.
i felt really sorry when i read these lines.according to your sincerely lines you don't need any
approval to shout that you are turkish.
turkish nation is a world wide nation that conquered from pasific to deep europe vienna from
yakutsk to india or morocco.
and also i can tell that our BROTHERSHIP is not religional.a turk is a turk doesn't matter
what religion belongs to.last month i watched a documentary that is about uiygurs in chinese border.
i felt such different when i watched it and saw we are speaking the same language after may be 10 centuries
ı was understanding it may be because of i am from erzurum its accent is similar to azeri lehche
ı understood kilometers doesn't matter brother is brother.
like ATATÜRK said:
i couldn't find the direct translation i am sorry but i think i did it well
''it is such a big happiness to say i am turkish''
this is the link that showsthe meaning of Turkey's cumhurbaskanlığı fors (presidents symboL)
16 states of the turks.It is nice to know where we belong
http://images.google.com.tr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cankaya.gov.tr/images/fors.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cankaya.gov.tr/tr_html/gunes.htm&h=140&w=140&sz=19&hl=tr&start=3&tbnid=OB_hh2N3Ny-OwM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=93&prev=/images%3Fq%3D16%2Bt%25C3%25BCrk%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dtr - http://images.google.com.tr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cankaya.gov.tr/images/fors.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cankaya.gov.tr/tr_html/gunes.htm&h=140&w=140&sz=19&hl=tr&start=3&tbnid=OB_hh2N3Ny-OwM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=93&prev=/images%3Fq%3D16%2Bt%25C3%25BCrk%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dtr
by the way our name means ''little soldier'' in turkish.may be you know it but i wanted to say
|
Posted By: Kerimoglu
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2007 at 02:08
|
It sure is, and no matetr who is trying to things against us, we will always be TURKS and keep our identity as a descendants of Greatest Hans and Beys. ------------- History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow! |
Posted By: omergun
Date Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 10:17
|
Firstly, i want to say i didnt write in this forum for a long time. But when i saw this beatiful post of my brother Junaid, i couldnt stop myself from writing. I didnt read all posts, i will read all of them later. Junaid, I accept you as a Türk, and all Türks will accept you as a Türk. Coming to the 2 haters in the topic, as far as i read the messages, member_profile.asp?PF=6220&FID=51 - Sarmat12 and Qaraniq. It is time for you to read books of people who made the research with all the true facts about Oğuz Türks, who are the ancestors of modern Türks in the area of Türkiye, Azerbaycan, Türkmenistan. I actually live in Holland, at the moment i am in Türkiye, and i bought many research books(the most popular and trustable) about The Origin of Turks. As a conclusion(which you actually all seem to know but keep having hatefully thoughts about Türkiye Türks), The grandfathers of Türkiye Türks are Oğuz Türks(a Türk Tribe). Oğuz Türks came from Central Asia, the people you seem to try to break appart from the Türks in Türkiye. Türkiye Türks and Türks in Central Asia have same blood and arent different. I advice you people to stop with trying to break us appart with terrorising terms like Turk and Turkic, we dont use those terms, we only use Türk. Junaid, i want you to read 2 quotes of our FATHER, HEROE and EVERYTHING OF US, MUSTAFA KEMAL ATATÜRK: 1. Ey Türk
gençliği! Mevcudiyetinin
ve istikbalinin yegane temeli budur. Bu temel, senin, en kıymetli hazinendir.
İstikbalde dahi, seni, bu hazineden mahrum etmek isteyecek, dahili ve harici,
bedhahların olacaktır. Bir gün, istiklal ve cumhuriyeti müdafaa mecburiyetine
düşersen, vazifeye atılmak için, içinde bulunacağın vaziyetin imkan ve
şeraitini düşünmeyeceksin! Bu imkan ve şerait, çok namüsait bir mahiyette
tezahür edebilir. İstiklal ve cumhuriyetine kastedecek düşmanlar, bütün dünyada
emsali görülmemiş bir galibiyetin mümessili olabilirler. Cebren ve hile ile
aziz vatanın bütün kaleleri zaptedilmiş, bütün tersanelerine girilmiş, bütün
orduları dağıtılmış ve memleketin her köşesi bilfiil işgal edilmiş olabilir.
Bütün bu şeraitten daha elim ve daha vahim olmak üzere, memleketin dahilinde
iktidara sahip olanlar gaflet ve dalalet ve hatta hıyanet içinde bulunabilirler.
Hatta bu iktidar sahipleri şahsi menfaatlerini, müstevlilerin siyasi
emelleriyle tevhit edebilirler. Millet, fakr ü zaruret içinde harap ve bitap
düşmüş olabilir. Ey Türk
istikbalinin evladı! Bugün Sovyetler Birliği, dostumuzdur; komşumuzdur, müttefikimizdir. Bu dostluğa ihtiyacımız vardır. Fakat yarın ne olacağını kimse bu günden kestiremez. Tıpkı Osmanlı gibi, tıpkı Avusturya-Macaristan gibi parçalanabilir, ufalabilir. Bugün elinde sımsıkı tuttuğu milletler avuçlarından kaçabilirler. Dünya yeni bir dengeye ulaşabilir. İşte o zaman Türkiye ne yapacağını bilmelidir... Bizim bu dostumuzun idaresinde dili bir, inanci bir, özü bir kardeşlerimiz vardır. Onlara sahip çıkmaya hazır olmalıyız. Hazır olmak yalnız o günü susup beklemek değildir. Hazırlanmak lazımdır. Milletler buna nasıl hazırlanır. Manevi köprüleri sağlam tutarak. Dil bir köprüdür... İnanç bir köprüdür... Tarih bir köprüdür... Köklerimize inmeli ve olayların böldüğü tarihimizin içinde bütünleşmeliyiz. Onların (Dış Türklerin) bize yaklaşmasını beklememeliyiz. Bizim onlara yaklaşmamız gereklidir I am gonna translate the quotes as far as i can, i could make some mistakes, apologizes for that. 1. Türk youth, Your first action is to defend The Türk Victory and The Türk Republic. This is the basic of the precence and future of Türks. This basic, is your biggest treasure. Even in your freedom, there will be enemies, who would like you not to have this treasure. One day, if you will be in a position to defend The Türk Victory and The Türk Republic, you must not think about the risks you will be taking to perform your duty. This opportunity could appear in a very difficult time. These Enemies who would be chasing for your Victory and Republic, could be the represents of people who accomplished big victories. With force and cheating all places of your great country could be taken over, all Marine areas could be invaded, all Units of The Army could also be beaten. Worse than all these things, all people in the government could act like traitors. These people could use their own needs with politics. Allour people could have no motivation anymore. The children of The Türk Victory! 2. Today the Soviet union is our friend, neighbour and ally. We will need this
friendship. But what will happen tomorrow no one could know. Just like Ottoman
and Austria-Hungary they could break up and decrease. The nations they are
holding on in their hands could go away from them. The world could have a new
balance. Right at that moment, Türkiye should now what to do. We have brothers
who share the same language, religion and race and who are now in control of
our ally. We should be ready to support them and connect with them. Being ready
doesnt only mean to wait(silencely) the day when this will happen. We should be
prepared. How do nations prepare for this. They must keep the spiritual
bridges safe. Language is a bridge, Religion is a bridge, History is a bridge.
We should go deep in to our origins, and must gather together by knowing the
history of our same origins . We must not wait for them(Türks outside Türkiye) to get
close to us. We must get close to them. ------------- ATTÄ°LA |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 16:38
|
Omergun, please cool down a little. Nobody is trying to disconnect Turkey Turks to Central Asian Turks, anybody doing so obviously has no understanding of history, as Turks migrated from Central Asia.The Oghuz Turks were a tribal confederacy, they had the most influence in the Turkification of Anatolia.
However, regarding "blood", these arguments are pointless, there is no such thing as "pure blood" or a "national blood", in a nation there can be many different peoples that make it up.
What is important is language, identity, historical connections, socio-cultural factors etc This is what makes Turks Turks and connects them.
Also, this post has nothing to do with Gazi Mustafa Kemal Pasha Ataturk, I have respect for him aswell but this post isn't about him.
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 21:17
|
Hi, Umair Ahmad here, my origin is from Kashmir on the side of Pakistan called the Northern Areas, Being an ethnic Kashmiri i speak Dardic Language, I have heard from my family that our ancestors were Turks, in our language there is some belonging and alot words from Turk language like Urdu has, i can also speak Urdu very well and i wonder why its difficult for others to believe us as a tribe of Turk Origin. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 21:20
|
i visited This Forum and decided to join to share as the topic was related ti my self,
Regards to All The Members!!! ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 23:16
|
Is Salaar your family or tribal name? or is it just your nick?
There have been reports made by Turkish aid workers who went to Pakistan after the recent earthquake that while in the Kashmir region they were suprised to discover many villages claiming descendancy from Turks. There have been a few articles about this, according to these villages their forefathers were a branch of Turk tribes who migrated to the region, another is that during the Gazevid era they were settled in the region and others during the Timurid era. They remember that the Ottoman sultan Abdulhamit Han II established relations with them and they have respect for him.
http://www.altinmiras.com/Icerik_Detay.ASP?Icerik=959 - http://www.altinmiras.com/Icerik_Detay.ASP?Icerik=959
The articles in Turkish but I can translate it for you. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 19:51
|
Al Salaam Alikum, first of all Thanx to u Padishah Bro!
I Appriciate and i pay my Thanks to whole Turkish Nation for that great help for Kashmiri people after that Earth Quake, it really proved the Brotherhood between our countries.
it proved Turkey as a live nation.
i wonder and want to know from where i belong exactly, which is a huge importance for me, currently im in Dubai, running my business. ------------- |
Posted By: kafkas
Date Posted: 19-Apr-2008 at 14:58
Hey Cuneyt, This is a really interesting post. Thanks for sharing your experience...My family is Turkish from the Caucasus region, and we tend to believe a Turk is anyone who feels himself to be a Turk and has loyalty to that identity. So if you feel that way then to me you are, and most Turks would definitely agree It's important to keep in mind that in the Turkish language, there is no equivalent to the English word "Turkic". There is only "Türk", which means, depending on the context of the sentence, a Turk or Turkish (meaning Turkish in the racial sense not language). So while English sources refer to one people or another as "Turkic", Turkish sources will refer to them the same way they refer to themselves, as Türk. As for the origins of the Turks, so far the oldest Turkic group that we know are the Huns (called "Xiongnu" by the Chinese http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu) who first appear in historical sources in the 3rd century BC. Another Turkic group related to the Huns would appear in the 2nd century BC called the Tiele (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiele). So the first Turks are essentially from what is today known as Siberia. The Turkish national epic, Ergenekon, describes how the Turks were born. One day, a large Hun village was sacked and destroyed by the Chinese. A lone wounded boy warrior is found by a she-wolf with a blue mane called Asena (now a popular Turkish girl name), who nurses him back to health and leads him to a safe mountain valley called Ergenekon. So this is where the patriotic Turkish symbol of the Grey Wolf comes from and the idea that Turks were born from wolves. The wolf would walk in front of his army as he lead it to victorious battles over his enemies. After a few hundred years, the descendants of the wolf and the boy outgrow the valley and become determined to move, but they can't find the way out since it had been so long since they arrived. When they realized a part of the mountains were made of iron-ore, they melted their route to freedom (iron forging is a very ancient practice for Turks). Now in Turkish mythology the wolf is helpful and a symbol of honor in a violent, unpredictable world. The story of Ergenekon is thought to have occurred in 209 BC, the date Mete Han (aka Oguz Han) ascended the throne. Hence the Turkish people and military institutions trace their beginnings to this date. The date is also on the Turkish Army coat of arms.  I hope this info helped. Here's another useful page about Ergenekon http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=100932 ------------- 
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2008 at 21:57
|
Salaam! Padishah Bro! can you plz translate that article for me, i would be so glad if u do it for me.
(Altin miras) ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2008 at 23:21
|
Alaykum Salam bro
Here is a rough translation for you.
The Himalayas, the highest peak in the world has for a long time been an unknown region to the wider world. We were introduced to this area by Nasuh Mahruki when he reached the peak, we had no knowledge that there were Turks in these mountains...
In the lower Himalaya region part of Kashmir there are reportedly some 300 villages which claim Turk ancestory. One thousands families living in the Sarp mountains are trying to survive after the recent Earthquake and all of them have the same surname, Osmani... they are living in a region which is divided between Pakistan and India. According to one theory they came from the Horossan region to their current location. The second theory is that they are remnants of the Ghaznavids. The Ghaznavids led campaigns in the region 17 times and some of the soldiers were left in Kashmir and today these families are their descendants.
They talk a broken form of Turkish (Turki/Turkic). They have not forgot Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamit II Han who set up links and gave assistance to them a century ago. The earthquake heavily effected the region where these villages are located. Hundreds of lives were lost, however, the relief aid to these hard to reach areas by Turkish red crescent volunteers won the hearts and minds of the locals.
Azad-i Kashmir is a part of Pakistan, during the 2005 earthquake the region was devasted. The villages we mentioned were in such a bad stage tham some were almost wiped off the map. These villages are in a harsh terrain with poor access via roads and no railway, making it difficult for them to recieve help.
The locals were pleased to talk to us about their Turk heritage, in 1976 the Azad-Kashmir Turk development association was formed between these villages to represent their voices. The association has released a book tracing the history of Turks in Kashmir, alot of the families trace descendancy to the Timurid era.
Ali Osmani allowed "Zaman" (newspaper) to interview him, he said "We are Muslim and Turks". Our forefathers came from Horassan and settled in Kashmir". He stated they had lived in the north of Muzafferabad and had established villages there. He later said, "Our forefathers came to Kashmir and helped found the city Muzafferabad, many Sufi mystics and religous leaders (Imams/learned men/scholors) came to Kashmir from Turkistan".
Osmani surname, loyalty to Abdulhamit II
The Turks of Kashmir have lived in the region for over a thousand years now. Due to living at a high altitude in the steep mountains they have been shut out from the outside world. They feel lucky and have gratitude that they are under Pakistani control. They say their brethren in India controlled Kashmir are not as well off, have a harder life and suffer some persecution.
Ali Osmani says, the Turks of this region had diplomatic relations with Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamit II Han, "out of respect for this leader and his relations with us, we adopted the surname "Osmani" ". When Turks embraced Islam some tribes dispersed to different areas, some went south to the Hindustan region. The Ghaznavids led forces to the region 17 times and were played an important role in spreading Islam to the region. In Muzafferabad there are still some Turk neighborhoods. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2008 at 21:34
Bro Thanks Alot for Your Translation Of that Article. That was very fine Translation, Not Rough,  ... .
The Article is really great.------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 20:51
|
I am a Hazara! I can Call myself Mongol because I know and all my family does also that we are direct Descendant of Changiz Khan but not his soldiers! All People of Afghanistan and norhtern and Western Pakistan that look Asianish they Have to do something either with Turks or Mongols! Clearly its not How much or % you are a Turk or a Mongol! if you have Turk blood or Mongol blood in you! your automatically turk! Its not if others except you of being turk it you excepting it! Not in just one way but in Many ways you are a Turk! |
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 20:55
So what? Do you expect someone to give you a pat on the back or to congratulate you? You have already posted this same boast in other threads. Either contribute something constructive to the thread or stop repeating yourself.
------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2017 at 08:39
|
As the last post is 8 years old, this thread is closed.
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |