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Mongol invasion to Indonesia

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: History of Oceania, South-East Asia and Pacific
Forum Discription: Discuss the history of SE Asia: Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore etc.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20102
Printed Date: 12-Dec-2017 at 12:39
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Mongol invasion to Indonesia
Posted By: Sarmat
Subject: Mongol invasion to Indonesia
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 14:30

There is a discussion on the Mongol invasion to Japan. Is any one interested in discussing Mongols' expedition to Indonesia and the reasons of its failure?



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Replies:
Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 15:19
Lol, it was another typhoon...  Confused


1292-1293:  Kublai Khan sent 1000 ships to attack Java. Hit by a typhoon, and refused permission to land in Champa, the fleet arrived enfeebled. Vijaya, the ruler of Majapahit, joined the Mongols to attack Kediri, and then launched a surprise attack on the Mongols, who withdrew.

Source:  http://maritimeasia.ws/topic/chronology.html


The quote above actually cites the (german) website immediately below:


1281

Muslims from Jambi send an embassy to Kublai Khan.


1289

Kublai Khan sends messengers to Singhasari to demand tribute; Kertanegara slashes their faces and sends them home.


1292

Kublai Khan prepares invasion fleet of 1000 ships to take Java.

November Mongol fleet leaves for Java; lands at Tuban.

Majapahit was one of the few countries of that time to defeat a Mongol invasion, along with Japan and Egypt. However, the Mongol fleet was hit by a typhoon along the way, and was refused permission to land in Champa (in today's Vietnam) to take on supplies. By the time the fleet reached Tuban, the army was sickened and weak.


1293

Vijaya forms alliance with Mongol forces against remainder of Singhasari in Kediri, led by Jayakatwang.

March Combined force of Mongol/Chinese soldiers and Majapahit takes Kediri.

Vijaya returns to Trowulan, then attacks Mongols in a surprise attack. Mongols retreat and leave Java.

Source:  http://home.iae.nl/users/arcengel/Indonesia/100.htm


1000 ships, so that's approximately 1/4 the size of the fleet sent on the second invasion of Japan, which numbered about 140,000 men transported by about 4400 ships.



Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 15:38
[QUOTE=TranHungDao] Lol, it was another typhoon...  Confused

[quote]
 
Looks like that
      

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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 21:08
Ermh Confused

The mongol army landed in Java and defeated the Javanese army. The mongols had the king replaced with one who was expected to me far more servile to the mongols. The Javanese nobility subsequently invited all the mongol leaders to a banquet, it was trickery and the mongol leaders were masacared*.


*I wonder if this gave inspiration to "the night of long knifes"?


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Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 00:35
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Ermh Confused
The mongol army landed in Java and defeated the Javanese army. The mongols had the king replaced with one who was expected to me far more servile to the mongols. The Javanese nobility subsequently invited all the mongol leaders to a banquet, it was trickery and the mongol leaders were masacared*.


I'm vaguely familiar with this version of events.


Posted By: Hulegu Han
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 13:28
what a bad luck that is! Another typhoon problem happened to Mongols in Java as in Japan. Mmm..interesting and sad story...


Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 16:54
You know what they say:  A typhoon a day, keeps the Mongols away! Tongue


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 17:24
Originally posted by TranHungDao

You know what they say:  A typhoon a day, keeps the Mongols away! Tongue
 
 
 
Thumbs%20UpLOL


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 12:57

Depends... are we talking about Indonesia in terms of modern Indonesia that we know today? If so, it will be tough invasion. Climate is not ideal for Mongolian horses, it's brutally hot compared to Mongol, and Mongolian calvary charge and fast mobility is meaningless in jungles and rainforests. Transportation, communication, supply lines would be stretched and divided by water that would fatally weaken the Mongolians. 

Heck, why would Mongolians go for Indonesia in the first place? Nothing valuable's in there. They might as well go for China or Persian wealth.
 


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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 14:31
Originally posted by pekau

Depends... are we talking about Indonesia in terms of modern Indonesia that we know today? If so, it will be tough invasion. Climate is not ideal for Mongolian horses, it's brutally hot compared to Mongol, and Mongolian calvary charge and fast mobility is meaningless in jungles and rainforests. Transportation, communication, supply lines would be stretched and divided by water that would fatally weaken the Mongolians. 

Heck, why would Mongolians go for Indonesia in the first place? Nothing valuable's in there. They might as well go for China or Persian wealth.
 
 
 
Well, Mogols actually invaded Indonesia and it was a very rich country (right in the middle of the trade route between India and China).
 
But your thoughts about the unfriendly climate sound reasonable anyway.


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 21:38
Indonesia was rich? Sorry, I need to keep up with Southeasern  Asian history...  but compared to the splendor of  Persia and China? Not so sure about that...

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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 21:55
Originally posted by pekau

Indonesia was rich? Sorry, I need to keep up with Southeasern  Asian history...  but compared to the splendor of  Persia and China? Not so sure about that...
 
Yeah, it indeed was rich, for example:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srivijaya#Golden_age - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srivijaya#Golden_age
 
in the 10th century one Circa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/903 - 903 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim - Muslim writer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Rustah - Ibn Rustah was so impressed with the wealth of Srivijaya's (Srivijaya the strongest kingdom of Indonesia at that time) ruler that he declared one would not hear of a king who was richer, stronger or with more revenue.
 
 


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Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 01:30
Java did a lot of trade with China.  Javanese merchant ships frequented Hong Kong.  Heck, why trade with the Javanese when you can just take it from them!  


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 01:46
Originally posted by TranHungDao

Java did a lot of trade with China.  Javanese merchant ships frequented Hong Kong.  Heck, why trade with the Javanese when you can just take it from them!  
 
I doubt if Hong Kong was so important at that time. Perhaps, it just was a small fisherman village before British took it in XIX century.


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Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 11:22
Originally posted by Sarmat12

I doubt if Hong Kong was so important at that time. Perhaps, it just was a small fisherman village before British took it in XIX century.


*tsk, tsk* Disapprove

Keith Taylor claims in the Birth of Vietnam that because Hong Kong was such a bustling place of commerce in the 10th century, or 300 years before the Mongols' worldwide rampage, that China no longer wanted to keep a constantly and fiercely rebellious Vietnam as a province.  When Vietnam was first conquered by the Chinese over 1000 years earlier, Canton though much bigger geographically was far less populated than Vietnam, or rather the Red River Delta of northern Vietnam, and hence the tax base their was much less valuable than that coming from the Vietnamese.  Not so, by the 10th century CE!

I can't recall when exactly, but Hong Kong was sacked by Arab traders, perhaps around the 1200's or 1300's.  They did so because they were pissed at the Chinese merchants for being greedy and conniving.

The Javanese invaded Champa around this time period too because the Chams kept plundering their trade vessels.  The Javanese were not the Cham's only victims. 

The point, I'm trying to make is there was vigorous trade in SE Asia well before the Mongols arrival into the area.

"small fishingman village"?  HA!  Ermm


Posted By: Intranetusa
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 11:43
Wow, the typhoons must be out to get the Mongols


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 13:26
Originally posted by TranHungDao

Originally posted by Sarmat12

I doubt if Hong Kong was so important at that time. Perhaps, it just was a small fisherman village before British took it in XIX century.


*tsk, tsk* Disapprove

Keith Taylor claims in the Birth of Vietnam that because Hong Kong was such a bustling place of commerce in the 10th century, or 300 years before the Mongols' worldwide rampage, that China no longer wanted to keep a constantly and fiercely rebellious Vietnam as a province.  When Vietnam was first conquered by the Chinese over 1000 years earlier, Canton though much bigger geographically was far less populated than Vietnam, or rather the Red River Delta of northern Vietnam, and hence the tax base their was much less valuable than that coming from the Vietnamese.  Not so, by the 10th century CE!

I can't recall when exactly, but Hong Kong was sacked by Arab traders, perhaps around the 1200's or 1300's.  They did so because they were pissed at the Chinese merchants for being greedy and conniving.

The Javanese invaded Champa around this time period too because the Chams kept plundering their trade vessels.  The Javanese were not the Cham's only victims. 

The point, I'm trying to make is there was vigorous trade in SE Asia well before the Mongols arrival into the area.

"small fishingman village"?  HA!  Ermm
 
You are absolutely right. But Hong Kong didn't have that importance. Some parts of the modern Hong Kong served as  trading posts for some time, but Hong Kong like it extists now evolved only after the British had  conquered the region.
 
The most important Chinese ancient trading haven was Guangzhou (Canton). The trade with the Middle East and India and Indonesia was also done via Guangzhou.
 
Check this out:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hong_Kong_under_Imperial_China - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hong_Kong_under_Imperial_China
 
The History of Hong Kong in Imperial China began in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/214_BC - 214 BC under the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_Dynasty - Qin Dynasty . The territory remain largely unoccupied until the end of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_Dynasty - Qing Dynasty when http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_China - Imperial China lost the region to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Colony - British Colony in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1800s - 1800s .


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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 13:31
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab -
 TO TranHungDao
 
I think you indeed confused Hong-Kong with Guangzhou:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangzhou#History
 
Arab and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_people - Persian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate - pirates sacked Guangzhou (known to them as Sin-Kalan) in AD 758, according to a local Guangzhou government report on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_30 - October 30 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/758 - 758 , which corresponded to the day of Guisi (癸巳) of the ninth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar - lunar month in the first year of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_era_name - Qianyuan era of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Suzong_of_Tang_China - Emperor Suzong of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_Dynasty - Tang Dynasty . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangzhou#_note-0 - [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangzhou#_note-1 - [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangzhou#_note-2 - [3]


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Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 17:30
Originally posted by Sarmat12

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab -

However, everything else still holds if you replace "Hong Kong" with "Canton".  Disapprove


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 17:34
Originally posted by TranHungDao

Originally posted by Sarmat12

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab - I think you indeed confused Hong-Kong with Guangzhou:

I think you're right! LOL

However, everything else still holds if you replace "Hong Kong" with "Canton".  Disapprove
 
 
Absolutely !Thumbs%20Up


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Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 17:39
Sarmat12,

Quite off topic but...  Did you know you and I joined AE on the same day?  Clap

However, you've got more posts than I.  Cry


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 20:10
Originally posted by TranHungDao

Sarmat12,

Quite off topic but...  Did you know you and I joined AE on the same day?  Clap

However, you've got more posts than I.  Cry
 
Cool !  Clap 
 
Keep working ... Big%20smile
 
Though, I believe the important thing is not the number but the quality of the posts...Cool


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 20:16
"Quantity has a quality of its own"
                            - Stalin

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Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 22:13
Stalin is in a league of his own.  Ermm


Posted By: Intranetusa
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 22:18
"Quantity has a quality of its own"
-Famous quote from Starcraft, in reference to the Zerg


Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 23:27



"The only good Zerg is a dead Zerg!" Angry
  
--- Gen. Philip Sheridan, United States Army, 1869

Can't disagree with that!  Clap






I


Posted By: Intranetusa
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 21:55
"My life for the swarm."
-Red Army Conscript
 


Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 22:20
A horse! a horse! my kingdom for a horse!

---  Richard III, from Shakespeare's Richard III


Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 12:24
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Ermh Confused

The mongol army landed in Java and defeated the Javanese army. The mongols had the king replaced with one who was expected to me far more servile to the mongols. The Javanese nobility subsequently invited all the mongol leaders to a banquet, it was trickery and the mongol leaders were masacared*.


*I wonder if this gave inspiration to "the night of long knifes"?
 
I read a similar story once but it seems a folk legend from popular internetsites. The Chinese histories mention the dates , events and tell how Shih pi, the general was punished in China for the failed expedition.
 
After the Javanese usurper was defeated by Mongols and Javanese, the last events are usually summerized as below:

"Raden Vijaya asked permission from the Chinese to return to Majapahit with a Chinese escort to seek the tribute promised to the Great Khan. In reality he was seeking to get rid of his allies , who were no longer useful after the defeat of his adversery. He began, on May 26, 1293, by massacring his escort ; then, with his Javanese, he turned against the Chinese established at Kediri and forced them to get back on their ships. On May 31 they sailed for China ,where they arrived on August 8. "
 
(Coedes, G. The Indianized states of South East Asia , p. 201 )


Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2007 at 01:01
Sander is the most recent person to post something relevent to this thread.  Everyone, please try to discuss the topic at hand.  Thanks!


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Posted By: Brainsucker
Date Posted: 18-Apr-2009 at 08:42
Well, one for sure, that it is not Vijaya, but Wijaya. The pronouce almost the same as Win without n.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2014 at 13:21
Originally posted by pekau

Indonesia was rich? Sorry, I need to keep up with Southeasern  Asian history...  but compared to the splendor of  Persia and China? Not so sure about that...

Be sure! In it's heyday, Java Brunei and Borneo, comparatively speaking, were extremely rich. Google Brunei.


Posted By: amature historian
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2017 at 19:58

Indonesia was a lot richer than Hungary and Russia, yet the Mongols invaded both those places, and Indonesia was fairly prosperous at the time.  

Sea invasions are tought, especially for places far out at sea like Indonesia and Japan. Neither Napoleon nor Hittler were able to successfully cross the 20 miles of the English Channel to invade England, and they had better technology.  Indonesia was a lot further out in the ocean.   And the nature of a sea invasion negates a lot of the Mongol's greatest strenghts.   It is difficult to transport horses by sea, and so the number of horses the Mongols could bring would have been limited, thus reducing the Mongols greatest asset, their mobility.  So it is not surprising that the Mongols failed in both Indonesia and Japan.

In general, the Mongols did not do well where they could not use their horses and mobility to their best advantage.  The Mongols did not conquer India, depite the riches to be found their, nor did they conquer Vietnam.  Altnough they killed a lot of people in Hungary, after a year's time they still hadn't completely subdued it, and they didn't even attempt to invade the far richer lands of Austria and Germany, although they had a year to do so.   The flat plains of Hungary were better suited to Mongol warfare than the more forested and hilly lands of Austria, which was probably a factor.





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