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Turkish Military gives a warning to the Parliament

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Topic: Turkish Military gives a warning to the Parliament
Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Subject: Turkish Military gives a warning to the Parliament
Date Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 14:53
Heard today about the warning, given from the Turkish generals to the turkish parliament. 
The election of the new president is on the agenda.
The officers of the turkish army are worried that the laicism principle of the turkish constitution will be bypassed.
 
Might be our many turkish friends among the ae community can lighten us.


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Replies:
Posted By: Athanasios
Date Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 16:24
When political crises occures Turkey,and turkish army officers are worried, Greek friends can lighten you as wellShocked...

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Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 28-Apr-2007 at 18:40
Here a article about, http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=109754

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Posted By: Jagatai Khan
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 05:17
AKP governent was drowning in the crisis they own created, Bulent Arinc, an important man in Akp and chairman of the parliament blackmailed Erdogan; Erdogan's aim was to select a laicist-modernist president, Arinc refused this, created a crisis in his party and at the top of parliament.

Apart from president elections, in Akp rule Turkish interior-foreign politics was harmed too much and army was blamed many times, Akp created a mess of inconsistent politics.At the beginning of all, they are constrast with their past thoughts and speeches.

I thought Turkey was in a chaotic situation and as a protecter of interior and foreign security army warned the government that that going was not good.They were right, we all forgot what for we were living, what was the republic's ideals, why we struggled against PKK for years..

I don't think this is a primitive  behaviour, yes, not a good event in a democracy but the civilian politics was in a desperate situation.


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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 09:16
Breh,Breh.
 
It is funny, There are still some people who love coups..
 
why we struggled against PKK for years..
 
Indeed, and army failed against PKK(Maybe, Reason is instead of becoming a military, they becomed a politic party.). It is funny, our army is only good against our unarmed people..
 
It is largely accepted(Not only by Turkey, but by world.), a coup is traitorship against nation and everyone who try to make a coup are traitors..
 
Anyway, goverment said, army is under my orders. They dont have right to warn me..
 
Army is responsible against priminister..
 
For now, No problem.  
 
 
 
 
 
I see them as new yeniceris..Nothing more. Only good against people who gave them their food..
 
 
 

Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 10:31
No need to worry, Turkish army would not dare to make a coup without US support.

Originally posted by Mortaza

Anyway, goverment said, army is under my orders. They dont have right to warn me.. Army is responsible against priminister..

That tells a lot about your concept of democracy.




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Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 10:37
No need to worry, Turkish army would not dare to make a coup without US support.
Has the US spoken out aginst that plan? I only heard that the EU warned them but haven't heard anything from the US government.

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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey

Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 10:43
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

No need to worry, Turkish army would not dare to make a coup without US support.
Has the US spoken out aginst that plan? I only heard that the EU warned them but haven't heard anything from the US government.

No, but they don't have any major problems with the current Turkish government, do they?


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Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 10:57
It's Islamist, that probably puts them in bad standing with the current US administration in and of itself.

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Member of IAEA

Posted By: Athanasios
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 11:10
Originally posted by Feanor

Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

No need to worry, Turkish army would not dare to make a coup without US support.
Has the US spoken out aginst that plan? I only heard that the EU warned them but haven't heard anything from the US government.

No, but they don't have any major problems with the current Turkish government, do they?
 
The U.S. maybe not but isn't Turkey a candidate state to join the E.U.?


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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 11:28
No need to worry, Turkish army would not dare to make a coup without US support.
 
Indeed, this is more disgusting. Army is powerful only against his own people. What a good army, we have.. It is listening USA and trying to rule Turkish people..
 
Hmm, is it Turkish army?

That tells a lot about your concept of democracy.
Well? so? Should I say, army is independent from goverment? is this your concept of democracy? Army should serve Turkish people(So goverment by choosen Turkish people)
 
If you ask me, army is not grateful to his masters.(People of Turkey.)
 
It is disgusting, they are wasting my tax and giving me nothing except headache..
 
Has the US spoken out aginst that plan? I only heard that the EU warned them but haven't heard anything from the US government.
 
No, She dont. She only stayed neutral.. I think, Army is aware of fact that without EU and democratization,  we cannot persuade kurds to stay with us..
 
 

Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 11:40
It's Islamist, that probably puts them in bad standing with the current US administration in and of itself.
Thats exactly my thoughts. I'd think the US would want the Army to make a move, but I'm not sure they'd want to make a public statement about it. If they are silent, I'd say they are on the Turkish Army's side, if they were against it, I think there wouldn't be a problem with stating that at all.

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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey

Posted By: Jagatai Khan
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 11:44
Originally posted by Mortaza

Breh,Breh.
 
It is funny, There are still some people who love coups..
 
why we struggled against PKK for years..
 
Indeed, and army failed against PKK(Maybe, Reason is instead of becoming a military, they becomed a politic party.). It is funny, our army is only good against our unarmed people..
 

Our army organizated successfull operations against PKK between 1990-95, at last Apo's capturing made the end of PKK, but with AKP-EU coordination PKK achieved to revive and find a new identify to herself in Kurdish nationalism.
 
Originally posted by Mortaza

Anyway, goverment said, army is under my orders. They dont have right to warn me..
 
Army is responsible against priminister..



So let the prime minister stop them.

Akp is on the way to be a "watch dog" of USA in Great Middle East, your tax to army may be useful if they do this.


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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 11:56
They make such a fuss about nothing.
 
They whined about Erdogan being president for weeks, then got embarrased when he didn't even stand for presidency.
 
Gul and Akp are not extremists, infact alot of Islamists wouldn't even classify them as overtly Islamist.
 
What I find pathetic is that their rival party Chp has a policy of no policy, there No.1 policy is to attack Akp, its all they ever do, however, they never tell the people what "they would do". It just seems like they try to make up for their lack of any serious policies, planns and organisation with slandering their opponents.
 
Gul is not a bad candidate in my opinion, he's worked hard to improve Turkey's image as foreign minister and has quite a good reputation.
 
The millitary know Akp can't change the constitution or make Turkey a theocratic state.
 
I disagree with alot of what Akp has done but the reality is they make policies and are organised while the rival just insults and slanders.
 
 
 


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine


Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 12:03
Originally posted by bleda

death to all islamists
my country never have been islamic country.
to all akp fans take your terrorist muhammed and go out my county.


hey bleda go learn english


Don't you have better things to do than offend people with 3 stupid lines on evert post.


As for the Turkish army well the Turkish army is something else than other armies all I have to say...


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: Jagatai Khan
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 12:18
The military criticised Akp's tolerance to some anti-laicist people. Akp is not totally sharia suporter of course, they say they are laicist, and even they are not they can not change the laicist system.

I agree with you about CHP.As Ecevit said once about Baykal "he talks, talks but doesn't do anything".But CHP is not only formed with Baykal.

Actually Chp has a more planned party program suitable to Turkey's interior dynamics, but Baykal even don't deign to explain what he can do.

About Erdogan and Gul; i know, they look like "cute" politicians when to look from Europe, but they are not.(their past, gaffes, too much usa-eu oriented politics...)

Originally posted by bleda


to all akp fans take your terrorist muhammed and go out my county.

You should watch your words.Muhammed is the prophet of your country's %99.


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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 12:31
Our army organizated successfull operations against PKK between 1990-95, at last Apo's capturing made the end of PKK, but with AKP-EU coordination PKK achieved to revive and find a new identify to herself in Kurdish nationalism.
 
As we both know, Army was responsible and only power at eastern Turkey. Now, You can look eastern Turkey and see how did Army failed..
 
Now, All cities were under DTP mayor, except some AKP mayors. So, Lets see, what operation of army give us.
 
Pkk is not diminished and It is funny to say, Army ended PKK.
 
So why do we still have PKK? Apo is still a jail ruled by Army, and still ruling PKK. How can capture of Apo finished PKK? If you ask me, We made apo one of biggest favor. Now, He dont have to fear anything. He can rule his terrorist gang from safe place.
 
Also, It is unjust to accuse AKP with kurdish nationalism, When only Turkish party kurds voted is AKP, It is funny you accuse AKP.. If there was no AKP, ever kurdish majority city would have DTP mayor.
 
Repeating same words dont make these words fact.. 
 
So let the prime minister stop them.

Not only stop, but also rule them. We dont give army money to attack us. We give them money to listen our choosen leaders..

Or should army stop or rule us??

Akp is on the way to be a "watch dog" of USA in Great Middle East, your tax to army may be useful if they do this.

Realy? so why is army waiting for USA permission? Hmm? Who is ruling army? Absolutely, not PM of Turkey. They want permission of Bush not Erdogan..

It is also funny you accuse AKP with allying USA(I am shocked you did not accuse AKP with allying Israel too.)
 
This alliance made by Army.. (Remember USA supported coups?)
 
By the way, If AKP say attack north iraq, what can our army do? Challange USA army? or just shut up.
 
After all, USA army is not weaponless Turkey civilians.
 

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 12:33
to all akp fans take your terrorist muhammed and go out my county.
I think moderaters should take interest over this statement. Specially, Muhammed part.

Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 19:49
Originally posted by bleda

to all akp fans take your terrorist muhammed and go out my county.

Would you mind if I asked your religion?



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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 19:50
Extremist secularism is just as bad as extremist religous movements, unrational extremism is destructive however it is used.
 
Turkiye has more a problem from extremist secularists that extremist religous groups. Extremist secularists fuel and give a right for extremist religous orders to exist, they segregate and create tension where there is none among the public.
 
You can see woman with headscarfs and those without holding hands in the streets, among society there is no problem of religion, in a family you may have religous relatives and non-religous members. It is extremists who try to drive a wedge between peoples, they make issues like "headscarfs" big deals its absolutely pathetic, have they got nothing better to do then tell people who they can and can't dress.
 
Plus, they also forget Turkiye is meant to be Laicist, which means religion is supposed to be more tolerated than in secularism...
 
 

There is a difference between laicity, a political theory aimed at separating politics and religion with the goal of promoting religious freedom, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism - secularism in the sense of declining the influence of faith on any public affairs (although the terms "secularism" and "secularity" are sometimes used in the sense described here).

 
The extremist secularist elite needs to be weakened, slowly they will loose more and more power, having such a powerfull extremist group with alot of power does not help with anything. Their only care is "secularism", they would support a party who were ruining the country over a more religous party benefitting the country just because one claimed to be "secular". And only support democracy when it suits them, if people they don't like are democratically voted in, they're more than happy and support un-democratic methods to get rid of them.
 
 


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 20:41
^ good post bulldog.
 
edit: Bleda your offending posts has been hidden and will be reviewed, maybe you should try to debate rather than rant 
 

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 30-Apr-2007 at 02:19
I should also add, It is a little unknown, who write warning..
 
 
Writer is absolutely not someone who know how to write...(I am sure army can write a better warning than this.)
 
Maybe, army was not totally guilty but with staying silent, They supported writer..
 
 

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 30-Apr-2007 at 07:37
well the markets didnt like the news. Most Global  investors don't understand the particular nuances of turkey's politics ( well that goes for almost all emerging markets), but when this 'warning' hit the news their risk appetite becomes risk aversion. Hot foreign dollars can easily make or break any countries market and there isnt any real defense against it. (any one heard the story of when George http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday -

Turkey's main stock index and its currency, the lira, have tumbled amid fears that the army will block the government's pick for president.

The main ISE National 100 index lost 8% of its value upon opening and the lira dropped as much as 4% in early trading.

Hundreds of thousands of people rallied in Istanbul over the weekend to protest against the candidacy of Abdullah Gul.

Protesters in support of secularism in Turkey are concerned that Mr Gul has remained loyal to his Islamic roots.

Mr Gul failed to win election in a first round parliamentary vote, though he has said he will stand in the second round of voting on 2 May.

On Friday, the army accused the government of tolerating radical Islam and vowed to defend secularism.

Higher risk

Turkey's army has toppled three governments since 1960, and analysts said there were fears that it could intervene again.

The threat of army intervention in Turkey's politics has unnerved the country's financial markets, which last week had reached historic highs supported by an appetite for emerging market assets and the prospect of Turkey's accession to the European Union.

The ISE National 100, Turkey main share index, fell 3745.18 points, or 8%, to 43,116.13.

The lira also headed south to 1.3882 against the US dollar after trading at 1.32 on Friday - its strongest level for nearly a year.

"We would expect a sharp downward market correction... as investors recognise that political risks have notched up significantly," said Bear Stearns economist Timothy Ash.

The staunchly secularist opposition party boycotted the first-round presidential vote because it was not consulted on Mr Gul's selection as the candidate for the Justice and Development (AK) Party.

They have asked the country's constitutional court to invalidate the vote on the basis that not enough lawmakers were present.

The court is expected to deliver a verdict by Wednesday, when the second round of voting is due to take place.

Market support

Analysts expect market volatility to continue while political uncertainty prevails.

But they are generally confident that a sharp sell-off akin to that seen last May, when the markets were hit by global inflation fears, is not on the cards.

Turkey's economy has been recovering from financial turmoil in 2001, and a number of reforms since then have helped to sustain growth.

The current government has also managed to keep its finances in check as part of its plans to cut national debt levels and meet the economic requirements of the International Monetary Fund and those needed to join the European Union.

Turkey's Deputy Prime Minister Abdullatif Sener said the government was following the current market reaction, adding that there was foreign and domestic confidence in the state of the economy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6606723.stm -

Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 30-Apr-2007 at 12:45
My eyes search for Beylerbeyi's opinion about this topic, im sure he could say more...




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Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 30-Apr-2007 at 12:49

I dont belive that there could be a new coup d'etat for Turkey.



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Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 30-Apr-2007 at 19:09
Turkey is a secular republic with no religion.

that bleda guy's post was outrageous, he should show some respect


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"When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?"

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 01-May-2007 at 00:04
Originally posted by DayI

My eyes search for Beylerbeyi's opinion about this topic, im sure he could say more...


I concur, his opinion is missed. I do remember he had some very well back up arguements against the akp when debating with mortaza. I have yet to see anything close

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 01-May-2007 at 02:13
I dont think this time he will accuse AKP because of coup threat..
 
Sure AKP have his mistakes, but for now, imminent danger is not against secularism(If there is any, AKP is half liberal-half nationalist - half religious-half-weird party)  but democracy..
 

I dont belive that there could be a new coup d'etat for Turkey.

 
If AKP retreated against army, we would call this warning as a coup.. Thanks God, first time at the history of Turkish State, civilians(Maybe we should say goverment, other party leaders failed at this fight.) talk against coup.
 

Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 01-May-2007 at 03:56

As a communist, I'm disturbed by both sides. The rise of conservatism and nationalism brought about a fascistic environment of intolerance. Being different from the majority gets harder day by day. On one side, I'm against the very nature of the religion and its legitimating role for the oppression. I'm not disturbed by the headscarf itself but by the understanding that a woman should be packed as a property for her man. Also it's quite disturbing that the president of Turkey is de facto appointed by the prime minister (not even by the party in power). As a result of the unfair nature of representation (10% threshold) the parties in the parliament do not reflect "the will of the people" (leaving aside the discussions about representation).

On the other hand, I'm really disturbed by the nationalist opposition and the intervention of the military in politics. The army itself supported and nourished political Islam through the 1980 coup against communists and now they seem hypocritical. I'm a man who has serious problems with authority and I will stand both against  the Islamists and any kind of junta.
 
As a post, the presidency has some questionnable powers. For example, he cannot be held responsible for his activities. He can be judged only for treason against the motherland. For me, the problem can be solved as follows: The law on elections should be amended, "the will of people (though it's a discussable issue when all the manipulations by capitalists and mass media are taken into consideration)  should be truly reflected in the parliament by abolishing the election threshold, the questionnable powers of the president should be reduced and only after this the president should be elected.   


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[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">

Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 01-May-2007 at 07:08
Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by DayI

My eyes search for Beylerbeyi's opinion about this topic, im sure he could say more...


I concur, his opinion is missed. I do remember he had some very well back up arguements against the akp when debating with mortaza. I have yet to see anything close
he had interesting opinions on both sides (military and the akp), my eyes was searching for his opinion about the military actually.

When i did read http://www.harbiyeli.net/?q=node/58 - this my opinions are honestly f*cked up, in this site they say that "warning message" of TSK was made up by an general who's gonna leave the army after 4 months and his opinions doesnt reflect the ones from the TSK.

....Ouch


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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 01-May-2007 at 07:46

Warning is poorly writen. Army have better writers. I should also add, I found Büyükanıt more democratic than our democratic party leaders..

 
It is most probably not opinion of TSK but They have no chance but accept it.
 
I think that I overreacted a little.Still, it is not a good thing to have such rebellion inside of TSK...
 
 
 

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 01-May-2007 at 07:53
By the way, Page is too new.. I dont think this webpage have any relation with TSK or harbiye..

Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 01-May-2007 at 11:10
Originally posted by kotumeyil

"the will of people" should be truly reflected in the parliament by abolishing the election threshold

That problem cannot be solved so easily.

The system eliminates any radical movement which attempts to change Turkey's political paradigms.



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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 01-May-2007 at 12:20

Now, It looks like we are going to elections..

Lets see, what can system do about vote of people.
 
 
 
 

Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 01-May-2007 at 13:10
Originally posted by Feanor

Originally posted by bleda

to all akp fans take your terrorist muhammed and go out my county.

Would you mind if I asked your religion?



he probably will say someting like Tengrist or shamanist

aha people tend to go with the old religion these days specially the ultra non islamist nationalists


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 02-May-2007 at 02:55
Originally posted by Feanor

Originally posted by kotumeyil

"the will of people" should be truly reflected in the parliament by abolishing the election threshold

That problem cannot be solved so easily.

The system eliminates any radical movement which attempts to change Turkey's political paradigms.

 
True. That's why I said "aside from the discussions about representation, bla bla..." 


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[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 02-May-2007 at 03:00

It looks like crise turned to benefit...

Now, people will choose both priminister and president of Turkey. More people vote, more people talk, more people decide...
 
Less systemic bullsh*t. After 80 year, what did we gain from system? Except becoming one of poorest, undemocratic and militarist country of Europea.
 
 
 

Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 02-May-2007 at 05:52

Yes, and after the President chosen by the people, it will also turn into a political race, nothing else...The "neutrality" of the president will be disputed.

Turkey's situation is more of a fault of the people before the corrupt and skilless executive powers(governments)... "Every folk is governed in the way they deserve"..A proverb which has a right point..



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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 02-May-2007 at 06:00
Originally posted by Mortaza

It looks like crise turned to benefit...

Now, people will choose both priminister and president of Turkey. More people vote, more people talk, more people decide...
 
Less systemic bullsh*t. After 80 year, what did we gain from system? Except becoming one of poorest, undemocratic and militarist country of Europea.


The system was ok and understandable for a new republic that had just experienced a rather bloody birth with competing ethno-nationalisms. 80 years on and a bit overdue, Turkey needs something more relevant for today's situation.

Glad to see the (remaining) leftist opinions heard on this subject though.


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 02-May-2007 at 06:22
Originally posted by Kapikulu

Yes, and after the President chosen by the people, it will also turn into a political race, nothing else...The "neutrality" of the president will be disputed.

Turkey's situation is more of a fault of the people before the corrupt and skilless executive powers(governments)... "Every folk is governed in the way they deserve"..A proverb which has a right point..

Im not sure if i would consider this one 'neutral', though im not to sure that the AKP solution is the best way forward either. even if i think reform is good.

The problem with a popular elected president is that you have two centers of power/positions with very strong personal mandates. This wont work well if the president has any real powers and AKAIK the Turkish version does. This can mean, you either have two aligned positions with power concentrated to one party (like the AKP) or two in opposition which could easily result with one very ineffective government. There are better ways forward.

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 02-May-2007 at 06:31

Yes, and after the President chosen by the people, it will also turn into a political race, nothing else...The "neutrality" of the president will be disputed.

Well, so what the hell should we do ?
 
Parliment cannot choose president(at which parliment to choose president, you need 2/3 majority. It is almost impossible.), and If people wont choose president. Who will choose? Army? CHP?
 
If President is such an important people, It should be choosen by people. Not by minority parties.
 
Also, neutrality of president is always discussed. Biggest party generally choose president.(Until now, 2/3 majority thing is new.) 
 
I should also add,now in Turkey, who believe neutrality of Sezer.
 
Let people decide, their decision.. Everyone should respect wish of people. Now president should respect them too.
 
Maybe, after elections, we should think to empower president too. Than should decrease 10%.
 
 

Turkey's situation is more of a fault of the people before the corrupt and skilless executive powers(governments)... "Every folk is governed in the way they deserve"..A proverb which has a right point..

Wait a little, before accusing people, accuse army and their four coup. This folk is not governed by their wish.

Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 02-May-2007 at 19:25
If I may throw my two cents in, it is kind of ironic how the army who wants to protect democracy is actually turning it upside down on it's head by threatening the government.

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 02-May-2007 at 20:30
Mortaza
Less systemic bullsh*t. After 80 year, what did we gain from system? Except becoming one of poorest, undemocratic and militarist country of Europea.
 
Flip the coin, look out of another window of your house.
 
If you look at it from the perspective of,  Turkey isn't in the EU, Turkey isn't European, is not in Europe and never will be, then compare Turkey to her actual neighbours, Bulgaria, Greec, Georgia, Armenia, Iran, Azerbaycan, Iraq, Syria its doing pretty well. Comparing her to middle eastern states its in pretty good shape, comparing to Asia its not exactly awfull is it.
 
So I'd say you've claimed quite alot but just look at things the wrong way, its idiotic to compare Turkiye to say Switzerland, Germany or Belgium. Countries in Europe have had peace in the region since WW2, there are no wars, conflict, terrorist camps, unstable regimes, undemocratic regimes, economically challenged regimes in the area.
 
Turkiye doesn't have that luxury, they have all the above on their immediate borders, the problem with some Turks living in the big cities is they seem to think their living in a stable peacefull region with friendly neighbours like say Switzerland but the reality is there in a highly volatile region where anything could kick off and any minute. Turkey needs a strong millitary to cope with its geographical location, that's just a simply reality.


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine


Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 02-May-2007 at 21:14
It is nice to be remembered. Since you asked my opinion, I'll write a May Day special.
 
I agree with Kotumeyil as usual.
 
This crisis is not a crisis of the system. It is a power struggle within the system, between the pro-Western nationalist capitalists and the pro-Western islamist capitalists. Whatever happens, you can be sure that Turkey will be a pro-Western capitalist country.
 
They are not very different from each other. This is one reason why something silly as headscarf is a big issue in Turkey: because they agree on most other things. Both have similar economic policies (neoliberal) and are dependent on the West. Military more on the US, AKP more on EU. Even religion is not that big a difference, remember as Kotumeyil writes, the Islamist Frankenstein monster was created by the Military (following the global American strategy at the time, of course) after 1980. Now that US no longer likes Islam, our Military doesn't like it much either.
 
No matter who wins this struggle, it will make little difference for the people of Turkey. We know this, because it is, in a way, the same struggle since the foundation of the Republic, the Military and its elitist civilian arm CHP (like my friend says 'just like PKK and ERNK') vs. not-so secular conservative parties the people elect (AP, ANAP, DYP, AKP). Ozal was exactly the same as Erdogan or Gul, except his wife wore no headscarf.  
 
What we learn from the current confrontation is;
 
1. The Military still rules Turkey.
 
2. You cannot change anything by political mobilisation as long as you are part of one of these two positions. You can bring hundreds of thousands together as long as the military or the government backs the demo, and nothing will happen. You won't even get attacked by the police...
 
3. The solution is still the same. Say no to both. Look at the May Day in Istanbul: Police checkpoints everywhere, controls even in other cities, the press censured, Gendarmarie (Military) and the Police (AKP) hand in hand, beating up innocent people in the streets, 1000 people taken into custody... Why? Because their system is threatened. They fear 1 Socialist more than 100 Nationalists or Islamists. Because there lies the hope for the people of Turkey.


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Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 02-May-2007 at 22:00
Socialism brings hope? I guess you can say that. From my opinion though the hope they bring is just empty promises.

Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 03-May-2007 at 01:01
He said socialism not communism...if thats what you are thinking of

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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 03-May-2007 at 02:11
He said socialism not communism...if thats what you are thinking of
 
Both of them are not considered by Turkish people much.
 
If we exclude CHP from leftist parties, We have not even 10% left supporter(I also exclude liberals) in Turkey.(If you ask me a big problem.)
 
I should also add, It if weird but AKP is both more pro-western and pro-liberal than CHP or army or priminister..(Specially last one.)
 
No matter who wins this struggle, it will make little difference for the people of Turkey. We know this, because it is, in a way, the same struggle since the foundation of the Republic, the Military and its elitist civilian arm CHP (like my friend says 'just like PKK and ERNK') vs. not-so secular conservative parties the people elect (AP, ANAP, DYP, AKP). Ozal was exactly the same as Erdogan or Gul, except his wife wore no headscarf.  
 
And that is why people love Ozal? or AKP? Erdogan,  Gül? Because they think, nothing will change..(Or nothing changed after 4 year?)
 
However, I agree with you, nothing will change for a socialist or communist. But lets not accept, All turks as socialist or communist.
 
 

Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 03-May-2007 at 04:08
It's so sad to see so many people beaten up and arrested just for wanting to participate in 1st of May celebration, organized by Labor Unions. When Kemalists or Islamists take to the streets nothing happens, when the left is marching streets are closed, transportation halted, road checks etc anything to prevent people from attending and if some finaly make it, then they get the stick...
 
 
 
Both the Islamists and the right-wing fanatic nationalists were organized as movements by fighting the left as attack groups, under police protection, back in the 60s and 70s.
 
I agree with Beylerbeyi's analysis, no matter which one gets the votes, from the mainstream parties, nothing ever changes. You still get the same dish with a different sauce.
 
 


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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 03-May-2007 at 04:46

Welcome BeylerbeyiSmile! Nice to see you again. We missed your comments a lot.



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[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">

Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 03-May-2007 at 06:21
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

This crisis is not a crisis of the system. It is a power struggle within the system, between the pro-Western nationalist capitalists and the pro-Western islamist capitalists. Whatever happens, you can be sure that Turkey will be a pro-Western capitalist country...The solution is still the same. Say no to both

How?

Vote for TKP, ODP etc. and they won't have more than 1%.



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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 03-May-2007 at 15:21
It's so sad to see so many people beaten up and arrested just for wanting to participate in 1st of May celebration, organized by Labor Unions. When Kemalists or Islamists take to the streets nothing happens, when the left is marching streets are closed, transportation halted, road checks etc anything to prevent people from attending and if some finaly make it, then they get the stick...
 
 
All that happens on 1st of May is an excuse for some anarchists to go around looting shops, smashing people's cars, causing violent protests. I mean common, these guys are still waving the Soviet flag, that flag of opression of Turkic, other muslim and religous groups and other nations...
 
If they don't start making some serious policies and gaining some kind of support the only one's left are going to be extinct in the next few generations.
 
The problem with leftists in Turkey is their lack of policy, originality and public support. If you look at Latin America they have very charismatic socialist leaders, the people love them, they have original ideas, new dynamic policies, they're nationalist love their country people nation and want to mainain their freedom. Leftists in Turkey have waved Soviet flags, used posters of Lenin, Che, Castro now Chavez. While they carry on with such a policy and do not promote their own characterisation of socialism, with their own leaders and brand they wont gather popular support.
 
 


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine


Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 03-May-2007 at 16:06
Kotumeyil usta,
 
selam. Senin tezi okuyamadim kusura bakma. Basladim ama bitmedi. :)
 
If we exclude CHP from leftist parties, We have not even 10% left supporter(I also exclude liberals) in Turkey.(If you ask me a big problem.)
 
How?
Vote for TKP, ODP etc. and they won't have more than 1%. 
 
 
CHP is not leftist in any way.
 
I think you guys worry about percentages too much. Remember, in Turkey Genc Parti got 7%, starting from nothing. They got a lot of votes from Izmir, a modern town. Why did those people vote for GP? DSP got 22% in 1999, but 1.2% in 2002. Have 20% 'leftist' DSP voters became AKP supporters?
 
There are many poor, dispossessed, unhappy people, easily 20-40 percent of the electorate in Turkey, who will vote for anyone in whom they see hope for change. Now they vote for AKP, which is better than the military (TSK) and the CHP. But AKP is a part of the global system and it cannot solve the problems of these people. 
 
Before 1980, socialists mobilised these masses. It is harder today, but not impossible. Work with the people, organise in trade unions, form a joint party or at least front, and after the next political crisis/economic crisis, you can get 20-30%. There will be a political crisis like the one now, because the TSK kemalofascism can't keep the people under control any more, AKP-Kurds-EU they all increase the pressure. And there will be an economic crisis eventually, because Turkey is integrated into the world capitalist economy in general and the EU economy in particular. We still have the IMF giving orders. 
 
Also, you don't need to be the largest party at the beginning. Even if a party which fights for the poor, the workers and the underclass gets 10% or maybe even 5%, it will scare the ruling classes, who will have to do some reform. This happened before in Turkey. Read about Turkiye Isci Partisi.
  
I should also add, It if weird but AKP is both more pro-western and pro-liberal than CHP or army or priminister..(Specially last one.)
 
AKP is not that democratic either. See what they did in May Day. They use democracy to weaken the nationalists' hold on power. But, yes, they are more democratic than others. As to who's more pro-western, I think it is a tie. As I wrote TSK is pro-American, AKP is pro-EU.
 
And that is why people love Ozal? or AKP? Erdogan,  Gül? Because they think, nothing will change..(Or nothing changed after 4 year?)
However, I agree with you, nothing will change for a socialist or communist. But lets not accept, All turks as socialist or communist.
 
Well, what I mean is problems of Turkey cannot be solved by either AKP or TSK. And I mean problems of everyone, not only of socialists (communist, anarchist, green all the same for me). What are the problems I am writing about?
 
1. Economy: We have a very large gap between the rich and the poor. Turkey has the worst GINI index in Europe. I am not exaggerating, I checked UN data. There is no single European country worse than us.  There are also important regional differences, the west is rich and the east is poor. You may say we are a Middle Eastern country, but that is not an excuse.
 
Turkish economy is growing now, but this is import-driven. We export much less than we import. And the growth benefits the rich, not the poor. Unemployment is high as ever. Most of our income goes to the West, paying the interest of our debt, accumulated thanks to likes of Ozal and Erdogan. How can you improve this situation without sending IMF home? Without balancing the trade with the EU (which means effectively quitting the Customs Union agreement)? AKP or CHP can't do these things. 
 
2. Kurdish problem: TSK and AKP both proved incapable of solving the Kurdish problem. CHP made Kurds shout 'I am a Turk' everyday, TSK burnt Kurdish villages, AKP talked about islamic brotherhood, but they all failed to solve the Kurdish problem. Admittedly, AKP is better than the others, and made something with EU support, but that proved to be inadequate. (Although here the Kurds have a say as well. They are the third power in Turkish politics, 1.Nationalist, 2.Islamist, 3.Kurdish ethnic.)
 
3. Foreign politics: Turkish people don't want to be part of the US-EU-Israel imperialist axis. Turkish people don't want to send troops to Iraq to kill Arabs, to Lebanon to protect Israel, to Afghanistan to protect American interests... But TSK and AKP are racing just to do that: During Israel-Lebanon war ammunition was sent to Israel from Incirlik airbase under TSK protection. 75% of the cargo airlifted to US occupation forces in Iraq passes through Incirlik today. Turkish firms are all over Iraq helping the occupation forces. AKP offered US Turkish troops, to be stationed in Sunni areas more than once. Tomorrow we may find ourselves in Iraq, or Iran or Syria because of TSK and AKP. Turkish people want peace and friendly relations with neighbours, something impossible as long as we are allied with the imperialists or we are imperialists ourselves. AKP or CHP cannot bring peace.
 
All that happens on 1st of May is an excuse for some anarchists to go around looting shops, smashing people's cars, causing violent protests. I mean common, these guys are still waving the Soviet flag, that flag of opression of Turkic, other muslim and religous groups and other nations...
 
Ah, the worst type of nationalist... I have met (and dealt with) your kind before. Wikipedia teen ethnic, bragging about a country he doesn't know anything about. Can you speak any Turkish at all?
 
Anyway, all violence in Istanbul this year was caused by the police. No shop was looted (this never happens in Turkish riots), no anarchist (do you even know what an anarchist is?) ever waved Soviet flag. Nor any group in Taksim, that I know of. Only Soviet related thing in Taksim square is the Taksim square monument, which has two Soviet generals in it. Built by Ataturk. To commemorate the Soviet help for the Turkish Republic. 
 
Only thing you are right about is that cars were smashed. By the police. They hit complaining driver's cars with their sticks.
 
May Day in Istanbul was a prime example of state terror, which made even the apolitical youth and the liberal press angry. But unfortunately we have no shortage of people eager to kiss the asses of people in power in Turkey, especially since 1980. The fact that you are not even from Turkey, makes me think that this 'sucking up to power' problem is genetic.
 
In any case, you'd better stop lying.


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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 03-May-2007 at 17:55
Beylerbeyi
Ah, the worst type of nationalist... I have met (and dealt with) your kind before. Wikipedia teen ethnic, bragging about a country he doesn't know anything about. Can you speak any Turkish at all?
In any case, you'd better stop lying.
 
"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people."
--  Eleanor Roosevelt
 
You don't know anything about me, so you can stop your wild conspiracies and accusations.
 
Criticise my points if you don't like them, from what I've observed they are my conclusions to why socialism is not as strong in Turkey as other parts of the world.
 
Oh and I studied and gained my qualifications in Turkiye Turkish Wink
 
 
Beylerbeyi
To commemorate the Soviet help for the Turkish Republic. 
 
This is one of the longest lasting myths. Soviets didn't help Turkish Republic, Turkiston Jumhurriyati, Turkic peoples of Central Asia raised help for the Turkish republic, the only safe route was the Soviet railway, Lenin agreed to let them use the railway for a cut of it.
 
 
 


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine


Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 03-May-2007 at 20:14
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

CHP is not leftist in any way.

I would disagree if you said it a few years ago, but now I know you are right.

Today it is more nationalist than MHP. It was founded as a party of military elites. Not leftist either way.

They have some sort of social democrat tendencies, but that's not enough to consider CHP as a leftist pary.

The problem is, that they have leftist votes.



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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 04-May-2007 at 06:48
Originally posted by kotumeyil

Welcome BeylerbeyiSmile! Nice to see you again. We missed your comments a lot.

my words to.

a guest appearance right on cue and he hasn't disappointed. Smile

His analysis of the Turkish situation, that is both parties being a part of the same repressive power structure can be applied to every other country. Classic Marxist critique.

I 100% agree on the  AKP - EU: Army - US partnership differences, I also perceive the struggle of power with this international twist.

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 04-May-2007 at 08:07
1. Economy: We have a very large gap between the rich and the poor. Turkey has the worst GINI index in Europe. I am not exaggerating, I checked UN data. There is no single European country worse than us.  There are also important regional differences, the west is rich and the east is poor. You may say we are a Middle Eastern country, but that is not an excuse.
 
Indeed, but gini index is improved at last 4 year.  So we can say, AKP did something about it. AKP is not magician. It cannot change gini index so easily.
 
Turkish economy is growing now, but this is import-driven. We export much less than we import. And the growth benefits the rich, not the poor. Unemployment is high as ever. Most of our income goes to the West, paying the interest of our debt, accumulated thanks to likes of Ozal and Erdogan. How can you improve this situation without sending IMF home? Without balancing the trade with the EU (which means effectively quitting the Customs Union agreement)? AKP or CHP can't do these things. 
 
Erdogan? Sorry, look at numbers again. Goverment dept at AKP rule decreased not increased.
 
It is true, total debt of Turkey increased, but reason is private sector. And private sectore generally use that funds for production..
 
Our economy and production of industry is increased not because of import. But import increased because of growth of Turkish economy.
 
Basic economic princible says, If an economy growth, so demand growth. So demand for import is also grow.  Lets not change place of reason and result.
 
2. Kurdish problem: TSK and AKP both proved incapable of solving the Kurdish problem. CHP made Kurds shout 'I am a Turk' everyday, TSK burnt Kurdish villages, AKP talked about islamic brotherhood, but they all failed to solve the Kurdish problem. Admittedly, AKP is better than the others, and made something with EU support, but that proved to be inadequate. (Although here the Kurds have a say as well. They are the third power in Turkish politics, 1.Nationalist, 2.Islamist, 3.Kurdish ethnic.)
 
Indeed, AKP was inefficent, but It is not natiomalist. Kurdish situation again improved a lot. AKP cannot solve problems with one day.. I agree, She can do it better, but still she is best.(Remember, they still dont like slogan"Ne mutlu Turkum diyene" and still resist nationalism. Unlike other parties..
 
3. Foreign politics: Turkish people don't want to be part of the US-EU-Israel imperialist axis. Turkish people don't want to send troops to Iraq to kill Arabs, to Lebanon to protect Israel, to Afghanistan to protect American interests... But TSK and AKP are racing just to do that: During Israel-Lebanon war ammunition was sent to Israel from Incirlik airbase under TSK protection. 75% of the cargo airlifted to US occupation forces in Iraq passes through Incirlik today. Turkish firms are all over Iraq helping the occupation forces. AKP offered US Turkish troops, to be stationed in Sunni areas more than once. Tomorrow we may find ourselves in Iraq, or Iran or Syria because of TSK and AKP. Turkish people want peace and friendly relations with neighbours, something impossible as long as we are allied with the imperialists or we are imperialists ourselves. AKP or CHP cannot bring peace.
 
Turkish people absolute want cooperation with EU. I am also against anti-USA or Israel politics. Politic means benefit nothing more..
 
AKP was unsuccessful acording to a idealist leftist but  She is not much unsuccessful for standart people.
 
AKP did good and bad about international politics. But AKP is much more peaciful than other parties and less puppet of USA.
 
I agree, AKP is more Pro-EU, but well. what is harm of becoming Pro- EU until now?(Somut cevap mümkünse.)
 
Yes. EU is a little double-faced, talk much, ext, but becoming Pro-EU did not harmed Turkish interest.
 
I agree EU harmed cyprus politic a lot but becoming Pro-EU is not reason for it.
 
Until now, EU is a good thing for Turkey.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 04-May-2007 at 08:42
The problem is, that they have leftist votes.
LOL
Not much, I mean voter of CHP are not much leftist.
 
Just look at, where CHP get most of her vote.
 
Leftist support(they dont have much alternatives) CHP but absolute majorify of CHP voters were not leftists.
 
DSP got 22% in 1999, but 1.2% in 2002. Have 20% 'leftist' DSP voters became AKP supporters?
 
Leftist? They voted Ecevit and Ecevit is not a big leftist too.
 
Infact, How many people we have in Turkey, who realy know what is left.
 
 
 
 
 

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 04-May-2007 at 08:51
Mortaza
AKP did good and bad about international politics. But AKP is much more peaciful than other parties and less puppet of USA.
 
You measure a party by how much of a puppet they are to U.S.A? What is being a puppet? if good relations with U.S is in Turkiye's interests then they should do what's in their interests.
 
 
I agree, AKP is more Pro-EU, but well. what is harm of becoming Pro- EU until now?(Somut cevap mümkünse.)
 
Turkiye is stuck in a trut, caught up in an economic agreement with the EU which is hindering her progress. Turkiye has a much better potential to export and develop trade with Central Asia, Russia, Middle East, Africa, Far East but cannot because of these stupid deals signed with EU.
 
In other words Turkiye is selling out her interests and weakening herself all to become the "begger on EU's doorstep", which essentially is what the Turkiye of today unfortunately is.
 
Turkiye will never gain admission to the EU, every 10-15 years they'll say another 10-15 years. They'll try to weaken Turkiye as much as possible, get them to give up TRNC, get them to organise the state as they see fit, make them sign trade deals which suit the EU and not Turkiye, just like is happening now.
 
One good thing Akp has done, is show the public, Turks are not liked, wanted or accepted in the EU as Europeans. They have shown the public that even by accepting all the policies and requirements to the EU they still don't gain acceptance and see that European states just invent new reasons not to let them into the cllub.
 
Akp has sucesffully turned public support against the EU, a few years ago most people had this blind vision that they were already in the EU and the EU is the only option or way foward. Now its a different story, people are openly against this, they want alternatives, the world is bigger than the EU its time Turkiye woke up and realised.
 
Maybe Akp did this on purpose...its boosting trade with neighbours and middle east states. Hopefully they can take the next brave step and just walk away from this EU self-destruction process. 
 
 
 
Until now, EU is a good thing for Turkey.
 
All Turkiye ever knew was being the begger on EU's doorstep, its been whatever EU want it to be, Turkiye doesn't have a say, alot of people are fed up, EU support has dropped to 30%. Turkiye has alot of potential hopefully it isn't wasted on chasing a dream...no a nightmare.


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine


Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 04-May-2007 at 09:09
You measure a party by how much of a puppet they are to U.S.A? What is being a puppet? if good relations with U.S is in Turkiye's interests then they should do what's in their interests.
 
Before AKP, Turkey is only ignoring Middle east for the sake of israel and USA. Absolutely, Not benefit of Turkey.   This is being a puppet. I am not only talking about other parties, but also Army.(It is who build allianceship with israel. It is weird, older generals accuse USA and Israel.)
 
Turkiye is stuck in a trut, caught up in an economic agreement with the EU which is hindering her progress. Turkiye has a much better potential to export and develop trade with Central Asia, Russia, Middle East, Africa, Far East but cannot because of these stupid deals signed with EU.
 
You have no idea about what are you talking.. Turkey can trade with others but our biggest market is Europea. Trading with EU is absolute more efficent and easy with trading, Africa or Far east..
 
Also, I cannot see who can we get better deal with destroying custom union..
 
All Turkiye ever knew was being the begger on EU's doorstep, its been whatever EU want it to be, Turkiye doesn't have a say, alot of people are fed up, EU support has dropped to 30%. Turkiye has alot of potential hopefully it isn't wasted on chasing a dream...no a nightmare.
 
Support never fall under 50%, Also support dropped because of improvement of economy and democracy..
 
Now you can ask again people, and You will see support raised again..
 
what is harm of becoming Pro-EU? Still I cannot see any reason, except  trade(and totally false reason.) and becoming begger.(Sorry? are we talking about international politics.)
 
Position of TRNC is not worse than AKP goverment, Infact It is better. Pls no need to play cheap games..
 
what harm did TRNC see?
 
 
 

Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 04-May-2007 at 09:31
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Turkish economy is growing now, but this is import-driven. We export much less than we import. And the growth benefits the rich, not the poor. Unemployment is high as ever. Most of our income goes to the West, paying the interest of our debt, accumulated thanks to likes of Ozal and Erdogan.


So does this mean that assets in Turkey are being sold off to finance the imports and the "growth"?

Posted By: Giannis
Date Posted: 04-May-2007 at 09:32

You don't like EU to much Bulldog,do you?

First of all Turkey's economic interest is in Europe, Turkey commerce goods from Asia to Europe and vice versa, especially in metal and plastic products, she can't commerce only in Asia, at the moment, that the price of her goods are high for this market.
 
For example the main supplier of Asian LDPE in Europe is Turkey. Another, example the main buyer of the turkish wire rod, reinforced steel and agricultural products is also Europe, neither Iran or Syria or Egypt, which by the way compete to find their way into European market.
 
The main economic intrest of Turkey is to make business, not with the ones that they look alike, but with the ones that make the biggest profit.
 
But, I can understand why turkish people don't trust or like EU, the same thing happened in Greece, from the early 80's. But after the econimical boost that we had in our economy, the opening of the borders for EU citizens, the access to higher techology and the finance help that was gaved for opening new companies, changed the public opinion.
 


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Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 04-May-2007 at 10:37
Mortaza
Before AKP, Turkey is only ignoring Middle east for the sake of israel and USA. Absolutely, Not benefit of Turkey.   This is being a puppet. I am not only talking about other parties, but also Army.(It is who build allianceship with israel. It is weird, older generals accuse USA and Israel.)
 
I agree and am against this narrow-minded view Turkiye has had for so long ie the world = EU. They neglected Middle East (ironic because they're also in the middle east), Asia (ironic because they're also in Asia), Russia well that's more logical due to the Soviets. However, its now time for Turkiye to stop this EU craze and open her eyes to the rest of the world.
 
However, if being ally with U.S or Israel is in Turkiye's interests then its in a countries interests they must act. U.S traditionally anti-Soviet/Russia, during the Soviet years Syria was Soviet ally, Eastern borders were Soviet and Bulgaria. To counter this Israel-America relations is logical. Today, America has the Iran and Iraq crisis, is percieving Russia as a threat again. Also Turkiye has a problem because of Iraq, regional unstability doesn't help, Russia is a potential threat to Turkiye's strategy of becomming an energy hub and building relations with Turkic states and Russia's muslim regions. Therefore there are some mutual interests, also conflicting interests like in Norther Iraq. 
 
 
 
Mortaza
You have no idea about what are you talking.. Turkey can trade with others but our biggest market is Europea. Trading with EU is absolute more efficent and easy with trading, Africa or Far east..
 
Also, I cannot see who can we get better deal with destroying custom union..
 
 
These arn't just my personal subjective views, its a reality. Turkiye trades most with EU because she CHOOSES to at her own expense. Infact, Turkiye imports much more than she exports to the EU. Why? EU imports are much more costly than Chinease, Indian, Far Eastern, Asian alternatives. Turkiye is facing a large negative trade deficit, higher imports than exports, this is why the average Turk isn't getting richer while the economy is developing. National assets are being sold off with this capital imports are being bought from the EU. Turkiye is getting exploited, then telling its people that everything is fine.
 

Fantasies and Ultimatums

Turkey and the EU

By ALI TONAK

 
Economic prosperity, stemming from capital inflow, is one of the shams designed to sell the EU to Turkish citizens. Any capital inflow takes the form of portfolio investment for speculation rather than of direct productive investment and as such intensifies the fragility of the Turkish financial structure. Some supporters of the Customs Union and the EU argue that -- unlike western hemispheric free trade agreements (NAFTA, FTAA, CAFTA)-- the EU also guarantees free movement of individuals and not just resources and commodities. Currently, this principle is only talk.
 

The talk of the impending EU membership is already pushing more neo-liberal policies on Turkey. On January 3, 2005 the EU announced its disapproval of generic medicine produced in Turkey. A week later on January 11, another ultimatum was issued: Turkey wasn't fulfilling its promise to import 21.5 tons of meat per year from EU countries. Turkish officials argue that this is due to the threat of Mad Cow disease, a reasonable concern. Another, just as reasonable concern, is the undermining of the significantly large animal husbandry in Turkey.

How is this custom union in the favour of Turkiye today? Look at the textiles industry. 
 

 

But previously successful efforts by Turkish Industry to increase its global competitiveness have now been overwhelmed by the Customs Union;

The trade deficit has increased by 108,1 % against Turkey’s favor while the total exports to EU has been increased by only 29,5 % in the last five years.


Over the past five years since the Custom Union, the negative trade balance trend between Turkey and EU has continuously increased at the expense of Turkey. The cumulated trade balance deficit reached to 59,7 billion US$. The trade deficit which was almost 5,8 billion US$ in 1995, increased to 12 billion US$ in 2000.

As unfair imports have continuously increased their market share in EU and Turkish domestic markets, millions of job losses and hundreds of factory closures have been widespread across the textile and apparel sector in Turkey.
The simple rules of origins, custom tariffs equivalent to zero or close to zero that are applied to the third countries due to the Custom Union, made Turkey a very open market not only to EU but to all third countries. The continuous deterioration of the local industries against this unfair competition has accelerated the growth of the economical crisis and millions of job losses in Turkey.

Continuous unilateral reduction of textile and apparel tariffs from 26 % to average 6 % by EU to these ultra-protectionist countries has destroyed the "little" privileged access of Turkey to EU. As a result, Turkey has been forced to compete against the unfair trade practices of these third world countries in the EU market; child and forced labour, very low wages, environmental pollution, state subsidies, etc, causing all the labour intensive Turkish industries, especially the textile and apparel industry, inefficient and unprofitable.
 
http://www.tekstilisveren.org.tr/english/rep2001.htm - http://www.tekstilisveren.org.tr/english/rep2001.htm  
 
 
There are now more Turkish intellects realising that the world is larger than the EU and its in Turkiye's interests to seek alternate markets in addition to the EU. I don't suggest Turkiye should cut off all ties to the EU, instead develop other markets which Turkiye has a huge potential in.
 
 
Turkey is the first and only country which entered the Customs Union without being an EU member. Turkey has given up billions of dollars of revenue from custom taxes in favor of the EU. Today, though ostensibly funded by a few EU funds, Turkey cannot even compensate for the contribution it has made to these funds. In short, Turkey hasn’t achieved anything thanks to the EU.

 
Turkey is the 17th largest economy in the world and it has achieved this success despite the EU. Today, the Turkish businessmen are not expecting any assistance from the EU. Their only demand is stability and they anticipate that stability will more increase once Turkey enters the EU. However, it is quiet clear that the EU doesn’t want to see Turkey as a full member and that it only procrastinates Turkey. The EU gives promises to Turkey, signs agreements with Turkey and the Turkish economy adjusts itself accordingly. When the relations are good, foreign investments flow into Turkish economy. But the EU’s inconsistent policies seriously harm the stability of Turkish economy. The worst thing for an economy is these ups and downs. The best option is that French, Dutch, German or other politicians should declare that they will never accept Turkey as a member. By this way, the short-term cycles will decrease and Turkish economy will grow with stability. In short, it might be better for Turkey to stop the EU process for the sake of Turkish economy.

 
Another reason to end the EU process of Turkey is the burden incurred by the Turkish economy as a result of the EU regulations. Turkey is now even more advantageous than China. It is close to the EU, but still exempt from any disadvantages of the Union. In other words, it is a China in the close vicinity of European markets. After the accession of Romania and Bulgaria, Turkish economy will have no rivals in terms of competition. By now, many companies have dismantled their factories in Europe and moved them to Turkey. If Turkey disregards the EU process and only concentrates on the competitiveness of its economy, Turkish domination will be inevitable in the European markets. Moreover, it is also possible to increase foreign trade by making alliances with China and India. In the opposite case, the EU will continue to be a burden on Turkish economy. As the EU will not grant billions of dollars for customs, and will not channel $30-50 billion for agriculture, it is not wise to expect even one Euro from the EU. Instead of all these, it might be more beneficial to leave the EU process for larger gains in the economy.
 Dr. Sedat LACINER
 
http://www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=2318 - http://www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=2318
 
 
Turkiye needs to cut the trade deficit, import from outside the EU and produce cheaper good quality goods, undercut current EU prices and export to them. Basically, the tables need to be turned, Turkey needs to walk away from the EU talks and develop a new strategy.
 
 
Mortaza
Support never fall under 50%
 
Have you been keeping track of the polls?
 
 
 
 Sharp decline in Turkish EU support 
Published: Wednesday 25 October 2006

According to the poll published on 24 October in the newspaper Miliyet, only 32% thought that Turkey “must certainly enter the EU” compared to 67% in 2004.

The number of eurosceptics is more than twofold. 25% of those asked said that Turkey “should certainly not enter the EU”, when only 10% thought so when Turkey entered negotiations in 2005.

http://www.euractiv.com/en/enlargement/sharp-decline-turkish-eu-support/article-159095 - http://www.euractiv.com/en/enlargement/sharp-decline-turkish-eu-support/article-159095  

 

 
 
 
That was 2006, its likely to be even lower today.
 
 
Mortaza
Now you can ask again people, and You will see support raised again..
 
Are you joking?
 
People are openly anti-EU today, they arn't blind they know now that the corporate media fed them a lie for many years, that EU isn't all its hyped up to be, that the world is bigger than the EU, that Turkiye has alternatives.
 
Support will keep dropping untill some party is brave enough to make policies for alternative strategies, as people carry on being disenfranchised with the EU process they will support the powerfull alternate ideas alot more.
 
We can all thank the Akp for this, they have caused needed change in the public sphere.
 
Even many intellects are calling for Turkiye to change track, not persue EU anymore and act in their interests more.
 
 
Mortaza
what is harm of becoming Pro-EU? Still I cannot see any reason, except  trade(and totally false reason.) and becoming begger.(Sorry? are we talking about international politics.)
 Position of TRNC is not worse than AKP goverment, Infact It is better. Pls no need to play cheap games..
 
As expressed in the posts above.
 
Economy, Foreign policy, Messing with Turkiye's internal issues, exploiting Turkiye's interests, hindering trade and competition with other countries. Oh and TRNC is not worse thanks to Greek Cyprus, they put themselves in a bad position internationally. But hey, what exactly has changed? empty promises, where is the aid, the lifting of embargos, the talks, all bla bla bla, as usual when Turkiye is involved its double standards. Now if the Turkish side had refused the Annan plan and the Greek side accepted can you imagine what would have happened? just look at the hypocrisy, its becomming a joke and the people can see this.
 
The EU doesn't want Turkiye in the club but it also doesn't want to reject Turkiye, fearing it will follow a policy not in the EU's control. As it stands, Turkiye is a toy of the EU, they try to blackmale and manipulate her, keeping the country in limbo.
 
If Turkiye said, we are ending this process its pretty clear the EU is just messing around and has no credibility left in our eyes. Boosts relations with the middle east, Turkic states, muslim world, Russia, Far East, India. Starts undercutting EU prices and flooding the EU market with cheaper exports while importing even cheaper imports from the East. Then carries on building these pipelines, becomming an energy hub in the region boosting strategic importance. And forming an alternate economic union in the middle east or Central Asia along with Russia it would be more in Turkiye's interests. And I bet if Turkiye was to take this step, it would be the EU this time urging Turkiye to come back to the fold, apologise and try to integrate Turkiye into the EU.
 
You only realise what you had once you loose it - This phrase could come back to haunt the EU. 
 


-------------
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 04-May-2007 at 10:54
Giannis
You don't like EU to much Bulldog,do you?
 
Its not a case of liking or disliking, EU does what it percieves to be in her interests and so far has been sucessfull.
 
 
Giannis
First of all Turkey's economic interest is in Europe, Turkey commerce goods from Asia to Europe and vice versa, especially in metal and plastic products, she can't commerce only in Asia, at the moment, that the price of her goods are high for this market.
 
It doesn't have to be one or the other, being a trade partner with EU doesn't mean you turn your back to the rest of the world. Turkiye has large potential in the middle eastern, Russia and Central Asian markets and is entering these.
 
However, Turkiye doesn't gain by importing from the EU, its in economic interests to import from cheaper sources.
 
 
Giannis
But, I can understand why turkish people don't trust or like EU, the same thing happened in Greece, from the early 80's. But after the econimical boost that we had in our economy, the opening of the borders for EU citizens, the access to higher techology and the finance help that was gaved for opening new companies, changed the public opinion.
 
It was a different situation back then, Greece, Spain, Ireland and Portugal did really well joining the EU. The newer states entering wont do aswell, if Turkiye ever entered it would be a restricted entry, no free flow of workers, not much help, its pointless. 


-------------
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine


Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 04-May-2007 at 19:06
Originally posted by Mortaza

Not much, I mean voter of CHP are not much leftist. Just look at, where CHP get most of her vote.

Yeah, I know... Sisli of Istanbul, Cankaya of Ankara...

But don't forget, more than 6,000,000 people did vote for CHP in 2002.

Though I agree that Turkish working class doesn't support CHP more than they support AKP.



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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 04-May-2007 at 21:01
Turkish politics has more acronyms than a communications paper ConfusedLOL

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Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 04-May-2007 at 21:18
A timely visit from Beylerbeyi, I do hope it's not a one time only.  We need a little Bolshevism around here once in awhile.

-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 05-May-2007 at 03:51
But don't forget, more than 6,000,000 people did vote for CHP in 2002.
Half of my family vote for CHP(Mother side.), and They vote for CHP because of their ancestors voted for her.ConfusedAnd you can realy find a lot cho voter just for reason. After all howmany people can vote for Baykal. (I think best thing happened to AKP is baykal rule at CHP.)
 
Majority of Alevis vote for CHP, because they think AKP is anti-alevi(And they afraid much from sheria.)
 
And workers, Absolutely, They vote AKP much more than CHP (It is funny, workers vote for AKP, when akp follow most liberal economy politic Turkey ever see.)
 
Infact, If CHP got vote of workers, She can easily govern Turkey instead of AKP..
 
fanatic(about politic issue.) CHP voters are more than akp voters..
 
 
 
 
 

Posted By: Giannis
Date Posted: 05-May-2007 at 04:51
Originally posted by Bulldog

 
It doesn't have to be one or the other, being a trade partner with EU doesn't mean you turn your back to the rest of the world. Turkiye has large potential in the middle eastern, Russia and Central Asian markets and is entering these.
 
However, Turkiye doesn't gain by importing from the EU, its in economic interests to import from cheaper sources.
 
 
You are absolutely right. With just one small fault, Turkey doesn't have a future in the Central Asian Market, if she doesn't distribute those goods in Europe, and that's practically the role of Turkey.
 
The textile industry is having difficult times all over Europe as in Turkey, because of the prices in India and China.
 
But, the transportation branch, chemicals, plastics, iron ore, agricultural products are all flurish, because of the high demand that there is for these goods in Europe and not to the eastern neighbours of Turkey.


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Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.

Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 05-May-2007 at 05:01
Originally posted by Mortaza

Half of my family vote for CHP(Mother side.), and They vote for CHP because of their ancestors voted for her.

Unfortunately most of my relatives have that mentality.

Originally posted by Mortaza

Majority of Alevis vote for CHP, because they think AKP is anti-alevi(And they afraid much from sheria.)

Are they not?

That's where AKP catches up with CHP in terms of fascism.

CHP oppresses ethnic minorities, AKP oppresses religious minorities.



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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 05-May-2007 at 07:07
Are they not?
 
No, They are not. AKP is not anti-Alevi. AKP did nothing against Alevis. Like other parties, AKP only ignored(Infact, She did some minor thing, but It is much less than enough) Alevi wishes.
 
AKP is not only party ignoring Alevi wishes, every other parties ignored alevi wishes.. Infact It is a little Alevis guilt, They are too loyal to CHP. Other parties dont think they will ever vote for them, so they just ignore alevis.. CHP know, Alevis will vote for her, so She also ignore alevi wishes..
 
Also, Alevis are not against AKP. Because AKP treat them bad. Alevis are against to AKP, because AKP treat religious muslim better than other parties.. If you dont believe me enter an alevi forum and see..
 
It is funny, These alevis were against to Headscarf because of a law but They support Cem Evi when Cem Evi is against to another law put by Ataturk.(Tekke ve zaviyeleri kapatma kanunu.)
 
That's where AKP catches up with CHP in terms of fascism.
 
Sorry? Infact even MHP cannot catches CHP fascism.
 
CHP oppresses ethnic minorities, AKP oppresses religious minorities

Realy? So tell me which party is protect christian rights more? CHP or AKP? Remember word of Erdogan about Malatya killings? His words were again most liberal words any major party leader in Turkey talk. He even protected missionaries. Which party ever did it?

Also lets not forget, who stoped erdogan to give christian minorities  some minor rights.. It was CHP and Necdet Sezer..
 
AKP is most liberal party in Turkey for now.(Infact That is why I love AKP.)
 

 

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 05-May-2007 at 07:13
 
Başbakan Erdoğan'sa 2005'in Ocak ayında Ecevit'e yanıt verirken, şöyle konuştu: "Kimisi diyecek ki 'Din elden gidiyor', kimisi diyecek ki 'Bu ülkede kiliseler inşa ediliyor', kimisi diyecek ki 'Apartmanların alt katlarında kiliseler yapılıyor.' Sadece Almanya'da binlerce cami ve mescit açılmasına Alman yönetimi müsaade ediyorsa, bu anlayışa bizim de karşılık vermemiz lazım.İnanç hürriyetinden korkma"
http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=218964 - http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=218964
 
Read this page. Than lets talk about Erdogan religious fasism again. He is more(Infact He is only one, who talk about freedom of christians)  pro-religious freedom than other parties. 

Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 05-May-2007 at 09:24
They have some sort of social democrat tendencies, but that's not enough to consider CHP as a leftist pary.


Social democrat tendencies in CHP existed in the 70s when socialism was a mass movement. This pressure from the below forced CHP to lean left. Ecevit came to power with a social democrat feeling, and CHP won the highest vote it ever got. This is mostly thanks to the socialist politics and the parties like TIP. This is what I meant before, when I wrote, even if a socialist party gets 5% it will cause ruling parties to reform. After 1980, and especially Baykal, CHP returned to its true self- nationalist.
 
Leftist? They voted Ecevit and Ecevit is not a big leftist too.
 
Hey, I wrote 'leftists'. Notice the '' marks? You are right, those 20% are not all leftist. As I wrote before they are poor people who will vote for anyone who gives them hope.
 
I agree, AKP is more Pro-EU, but well. what is harm of becoming Pro- EU until now?(Somut cevap mümkünse.)
 
Good points of EU talks are the pressure on the Kemalist establishment in Turkey. However, EU has its own reasons. Relations with Greece and Cyprus improved as well. But most of the support comes from those countries in the EU, which are pro-US, and involved in Iraq. In the future, we may have to pay for this support. 
 
Now, the main problem with the EU. I already wrote about this. Every day our economic ties with the EU are increasing. Our economy becomes dependent on theirs.
 
Look at Turkey, a country of 70 millions, 36% of the workforce still employed in agriculture (EU average 4.3%). Most advanced EU countries have service economies. Turkey hasn't even completly industrialised yet, let alone moving to a service economy. This difference in the levels of development between Turkey and EU means that increased economic integration works in benefit of the EU. They supply us with high-profit margin goods and services, and buy agricultural products and industrial products which have lower profit margin in return.
 
In history, no country in Turkey's situation has managed to develop it's economy. Asian success stories, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and now Malaysia and China all had government guidance of their economies, and protected designated key sectors until they became strong enough to compete with the developed countries and then opened their markets. All countries which opened their markets before they developed like the South American countries, African countries, Middle Eastern countries, have stayed where they were.
 
Best example is Chile. Chile had American backed fascist rule which came to power on 11 September 1973 (our dictator came to power on 12 September). They created the neo-liberal's dream in Chile. Their economy grew on paper. Let's see what they have:
 
- They have a pro-capita income of 12000 USD, which is not that much compared to Turkey's 8900 USD. If Turked hadn't had the Kurdish war, we'd be near.
 
- They have a GINI index of 54! Turkey has 40. The gap between the rich and the poor is much greater than Turkey.
 
- Their main exports are copper, fruit, fish, wine, chemicals and paper/pulp, all raw materials or agricultural products.
 
- They have international debt amounting to 40% or so of their GDP.
 
In short, they are a periphery of the rich world. They supply raw materials and agricultural products and buy high tech goods and services from them. Yes, their economy grew, but they haven't developed, and their people hadn't become richer. Chile is, in fact, the best possible outcome for a neo-liberal Turkey, but it will be much worse.
 
Indeed, but gini index is improved at last 4 year.  So we can say, AKP did something about it. AKP is not magician. It cannot change gini index so easily.
 
GINI index improved slightly because Turkey is recovering from the huge economic crises of 1999 and 2001. Not because of AKP's neo-liberal economic policies. In fact economic recovery started already at the time of the previous government, but the imbecile MHP asked for early elections. DSP and ANAP literally begged them not to, knowing what would happen. Then AKP came and got the credit for this recovery.
 
However, those crises happened because of IMF's neo-liberal policies in the first place. Now there is no crises because foreign investors are taking risks. Sooner or later, we'll have another crisis, because all the causes are still here: debt, no control over hot-money flow, corruption, political instability...
 
Basic economic princible says, If an economy growth, so demand growth. So demand for import is also grow.  Lets not change place of reason and result.
 
No, it works both ways, you can increase growth by government spending to stimulate demand. Basic Keynesian principle.
 
Turkey can trade with others but our biggest market is Europea. Trading with EU is absolute more efficent and easy with trading, Africa or Far east..
 
Yes, but what do we trade with Europe? We sell them cheap goods and buy expensive goods in return. This is beneficial in the short run, but prevents development in the long run. In fact, we've been doing this for centuries. We haven't got very far, have we?
 
So does this mean that assets in Turkey are being sold off to finance the imports and the "growth"?
 
They are being sold off because the AKP people are neo-liberals who are trying to integrate Turkey into world economy, which causes Turkey to be dependent on foreign capital. In short, they follow IMF's (Imperialists') orders. So did the previous government. And so did the one before them, etc. etc. since the end of WW II.
 
FYI, in international exchange terms, the Turkey's GDP is slightly less than WalMart's. Without restraint, the developed countries can buy Turkey wholesale.
 
The main economic intrest of Turkey is to make business, not with the ones that they look alike, but with the ones that make the biggest profit.
 
We've been doing this for centuries, see where it got us. If we follow further we'll turn into Chile, at best. But of course, you are right. Turkey cannot compete with Asia in exporting raw materials, or agricultural products or simple production industries. What Turkey should do is, resist globalisation, designate key sectors and develop them with government support until they can compete with Europeans and then start trading with Asia. This is already happening in some sectors, like contruction.   
 
But, I can understand why turkish people don't trust or like EU, the same thing happened in Greece, from the early 80's. But after the econimical boost that we had in our economy, the opening of the borders for EU citizens, the access to higher techology and the finance help that was gaved for opening new companies, changed the public opinion.
 
Greece and Turkey are not comparable. Turkey has a large population, a larger, inaccessable landmass, high population growth, much political instability... Started off poorer than Greece. Turkey joined the Customs Union without joining the EU, so it can't protect its interests when the joint customs rules are being decided, but has to follow them anyway. Also Turks have no open borders. EU workers and capital can come freely to Turkey but Turkish labour or even capitalists can't travel to EU without visas. Which is nother factor distorting the Customs Union in favour of Europe. Also if Turkey joins the EU, there won't be any CAP benefits for its millions of farmers, nor massive development funds Greece had 'milked off the German cow' decade after decade. Greece can be a model for Bulgaria maybe, but not even for Romania, let alone Turkey.
 


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Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 05-May-2007 at 09:28
Javier Solana, the Secretary- General of the Council of the EU said today, that the EU is sure, that a President Gül, will be an assurance for the continuation of turky's way to democray and into the eu???
Heard this today on air , but didn't find any source. Hand it in later...


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http://imageshack.us">

Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 05-May-2007 at 09:49

This is one of the longest lasting myths. Soviets didn't help Turkish Republic, Turkiston Jumhurriyati, Turkic peoples of Central Asia raised help for the Turkish republic, the only safe route was the Soviet railway, Lenin agreed to let them use the railway for a cut of it.

What turanist wank site did you get this garbage from?

So, according to you, Ataturk's letter to Lenin, asking for help and joint action against the Armenians, was not sent on 26 April 1920, nor first thing the Ankara government did in foreign policy was to send a delegation to Moscow.

Quote Ataturk (in updated Turkish):
'Efendiler, kurulan Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi Hükûmetinin, disisler
hakkinda ilk verdigi karar, Moskovaya bir hey'et göndermek olmustur.
Hey'et Disisleri Bakani Bekir Sami Beyin baskanliginda idi. Ekonomi Bakani
Yusuf Kemal Bey üye bulunuyordu. 11 Mayis 1920 de Ankaradan yola çikan hey'etin temel görevi, Rusya ile iliski kurmakti.'
 
So we should believe that Halil Pasa was lying when he wrote that he left Moscow on 1 July 1920 carrying 500 kg of gold, after the Moscow government agreed to send help.  during the Russian civil war, when Moscow hadn't controlled Central Asia. Also 60000 rifles, millions of rounds of ammunition and hundreds of artillery pieces sent by Lenin must have been produced by the advanced arms industry of Turkestan...
 
I guess this delegation went to your fictional 'Turkestan Republic' instead of Moscow by mistake, and Halil Pasa brought the gold from Samarkand...
 
And of course, Inonu must be lying in his memoirs, just like the historical records of the TBMM. This help was sent by our racial and religious brothers in SSR's in Turkestan (note that they are part of the Soviet Union, all ruled by communists), from which Lenin (leader of the Soviets') 'had a cut'...
 
Yeah, right. This is too dumb a lie even for the fascists. In fact I saw this mentioned in by some idiots in Nihal Atsiz org (Turkish version of Stormfront org) and rejected by the morons there (technically speaking, morons are higher on the IQ scale than idiots).


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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 05-May-2007 at 11:43
Now, the main problem with the EU. I already wrote about this. Every day our economic ties with the EU are increasing. Our economy becomes dependent on theirs.
 
I dont see this as a bad problem. EU is biggest market who have fair rules and near to Turkey.(USA is a big market too, but to far away from us.)
 
Oneway or other way, our economy will depend on world. Do you prefer Russia, iran or other countries. EU have rules and money.
 
Both other countries, have no rule and money. Their economy is not enough stable. So criss at their economy will harm our economy more.
 
Look at Turkey, a country of 70 millions, 36% of the workforce still employed in agriculture (EU average 4.3%). Most advanced EU countries have service economies. Turkey hasn't even completly industrialised yet, let alone moving to a service economy. This difference in the levels of development between Turkey and EU means that increased economic integration works in benefit of the EU. They supply us with high-profit margin goods and services, and buy agricultural products and industrial products which have lower profit margin in return.
 
I agree, we are becoming workforce of EU for low products but You cannot wait to reach EU with one day. We need at least another 100 year of stable and big growth rate to reach them.
 
I also cannot see why EU is reason for this. Even before EU, We are producing low-profit margin products.
 
Our economy can grow with trade and most importantly foreign investment..
 
EU is both good for investment and trade. Also I should add, our import-export gap problems does not happen because of EU, but because of China, Russia and Iran..(Countries we want to trade.)
 
Also lets not forget, most of our import is investment goods..
 
GINI index improved slightly because Turkey is recovering from the huge economic crises of 1999 and 2001. Not because of AKP's neo-liberal economic policies.
 
Indeed, so we both know, economic growth will olsa improve GİNİ index until some point.
 
That is why I dislike powerless situation of left.. Anyway, We have not enough money to fund a big social security system.(Infact, Turkey is already giving much more than enough.)
 
When we have not a big cake, It is unbenefical to argue about how to divide cake.
 
No, it works both ways, you can increase growth by government spending to stimulate demand. Basic Keynesian principle.
 
Indeed, but goverment spending is less than money collected by state. So for now, Goverment spending is decreasing demand..
 
Demand is increased because of newly found money(banks and outside funds.) and stability of Turkey and also money comes from export. Also, I think for last there month, our import-export gap is decreased.
 
Yes, but what do we trade with Europe? We sell them cheap goods and buy expensive goods in return. This is beneficial in the short run, but prevents development in the long run. In fact, we've been doing this for centuries. We haven't got very far, have we?
 
Well, what will happen If we had no EU? will we begin to sell expensive goods? Now, we have at least a good market with just rules. We have no more market problem, but capital problems.
 
Thanks to army warning, our capital problem is increased at last two weak..(In long run, We wil pay much for this unstability.) Without EU, We will also have market problems..
 
They are being sold off because the AKP people are neo-liberals who are trying to integrate Turkey into world economy, which causes Turkey to be dependent on foreign capital. In short, they follow IMF's (Imperialists') orders. So did the previous government. And so did the one before them, etc. etc. since the end of WW II.
 
It is funny, every country in world want foreign capital. Only in Turkey(and some other not developed country), people suspect from foreign capital.. It is sad army stoped this process much..
 
There were demand for our banks(Banks benefit economic growth more than others.) and Foreign investmens begin to interest real sector and direct investment..
 
For now, They know Turkey have no rules.So they will not invest their hardly gained money. This is a cheap game If you ask me..
 
FYI, in international exchange terms, the Turkey's GDP is slightly less than WalMart's. Without restraint, the developed countries can buy Turkey wholesale.
 
Not excatly, capital of Turkey is much more than GDP of Turkey.(Walmart should buy capital not GDP.)
 
Also lets not forget, If demand for Turkey will increase, so Turkey good will become more expensive.(Be sure Walmart have not su much money.
 
I find this thing a little nationalist. Yes, We sell our banks and factories. So what is problem? nationality of ownership of these banks and factories? what is difference between a german and turk, who own a factory inside Turkey. (Except, Turks dont pay their tax.)
 
What Turkey should do is, resist globalisation, designate key sectors and develop them with government support until they can compete with Europeans and then start trading with Asia. This is already happening in some sectors, like contruction.   
 
Our problem is lack of capital. Who will invest Turkey, If we refuse globalisation.. Turkey should designate and support some key sectors. That is true, but globalization is not a problem for this.
 
Also lets not forget, Our most advanced industry is globalised industries.
 
Do you want expensive and unqualified good? If we resist globalisation, We will just have this.
 
It is funny, when our problem was import-export gap with asia and russia, We accuse EU.
 
 
 
 

Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 05-May-2007 at 12:44
Originally posted by Mortaza

Realy? So tell me which party is protect christian rights more? CHP or AKP?

Neither. Don't be ridiculous.



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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 05-May-2007 at 12:46
Beylerbeyi
What turanist wank site did you get this garbage from?
 
Clap
You really know how to debate don't you Confused, as usual you treat views which differ to yours as some sought of insult or threat...
 
Watch this documentary
 
 
Kurtuluş Savaşında Türkistanlılar
 
http://www.trt.net.tr/wwwtrt/progdetay.aspx?tanitimid=1968&tur=TV - http://www.trt.net.tr/wwwtrt/progdetay.aspx?tanitimid=1968&tur=TV
 
 
Türkistan’ın Milli Mücadele’ye verdiği destek, gönüllü mücahitlerle sınırlı değil tabii ki. Ne yazık ki, tarihe Rus yardımı olarak geçen fakat gerçekte Buhara Cumhuriyeti’nin gönderdiği 100 milyon altın ruble tutarındaki yardım vardır. Zor zamanda gelen bu yardım, Ankara Hükümeti için büyük moral ve güç kaynağı olur. Moskova’ya giden Türk heyetinin maddi yardım talebine Lenin olumsuz cevap verince devreye Buhara Cumhuriyeti Cumhurbaşkanı Osman Bey (Kocaoğlu) girer, Buhara’ya döner dönmez de yardım teklifini Meclis’e sunar. Buhara Meclisi teklifi tereddütsüz onaylayarak Timur Hazinesi’nden 100 milyon ruble değerindeki altının Türkiye’ye yollanmasına karar verir. O dönem için oldukça yüklü bir miktar olan yardım, Taşkent’ten vagonlara yüklenerek Moskova aracılığıyla gönderilir. Moskova, bu yardımların ancak 11 milyon altınlık kısmını 1920-1922 yılları arasında parça parça teslim eder. Geri kalan kısmı ise kendi hazinesine aktarır. Bu destek sebebiyle Atatürk, Buhara Cumhuriyeti’nin 1922’de Ruslar tarafından işgal edilmesi üzerine Türkiye’ye yerleşen Buhara Cumhurbaşkanı Osman Kocaoğlu’na sıcak ilgi gösterir, ölünceye kadar milletvekili maaşı bağlatır.
 
http://www.aksiyon.com.tr/detay.php?id=22691 - http://www.aksiyon.com.tr/detay.php?id=22691
 
 
 Wake up and open your eyes, your just re-telling old soviet empire fables. This is why Communism is in retirement heading towards extinction, they are elitist not from the masses, they follow leaders which mean nothing to the ordinary people, wave foreign flags, refer to anything and anyone talking well of their nation as "racist or facists". They don't have much in common with socialism at all, are very closed minded and not open to new ideas.
 
If it makes you feel better to call others names, go ahead...
http://www.trt.net.tr/wwwtrt/progdetay.aspx?tanitimid=1968&tur=TV -  


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine


Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 05-May-2007 at 13:02
How did you read these articles?

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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 05-May-2007 at 13:33
Neither. Don't be ridiculous.
 
Maybe, I should ask, which one is worse? AKP or CHP about religious fasism.
 
 

Posted By: Giannis
Date Posted: 05-May-2007 at 13:56
Originally posted by Bulldog

Watch this documentary
 
 
Kurtuluş Savaşında Türkistanlılar
 
http://www.trt.net.tr/wwwtrt/progdetay.aspx?tanitimid=1968&tur=TV - http://www.trt.net.tr/wwwtrt/progdetay.aspx?tanitimid=1968&tur=TV
 
 
Türkistan’ın Milli Mücadele’ye verdiği destek, gönüllü mücahitlerle sınırlı değil tabii ki. Ne yazık ki, tarihe Rus yardımı olarak geçen fakat gerçekte Buhara Cumhuriyeti’nin gönderdiği 100 milyon altın ruble tutarındaki yardım vardır. Zor zamanda gelen bu yardım, Ankara Hükümeti için büyük moral ve güç kaynağı olur. Moskova’ya giden Türk heyetinin maddi yardım talebine Lenin olumsuz cevap verince devreye Buhara Cumhuriyeti Cumhurbaşkanı Osman Bey (Kocaoğlu) girer, Buhara’ya döner dönmez de yardım teklifini Meclis’e sunar. Buhara Meclisi teklifi tereddütsüz onaylayarak Timur Hazinesi’nden 100 milyon ruble değerindeki altının Türkiye’ye yollanmasına karar verir. O dönem için oldukça yüklü bir miktar olan yardım, Taşkent’ten vagonlara yüklenerek Moskova aracılığıyla gönderilir. Moskova, bu yardımların ancak 11 milyon altınlık kısmını 1920-1922 yılları arasında parça parça teslim eder. Geri kalan kısmı ise kendi hazinesine aktarır. Bu destek sebebiyle Atatürk, Buhara Cumhuriyeti’nin 1922’de Ruslar tarafından işgal edilmesi üzerine Türkiye’ye yerleşen Buhara Cumhurbaşkanı Osman Kocaoğlu’na sıcak ilgi gösterir, ölünceye kadar milletvekili maaşı bağlatır.
 
http://www.aksiyon.com.tr/detay.php?id=22691 - http://www.aksiyon.com.tr/detay.php?id=22691
 
  
 
Is it possible to have an english translation, please?


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Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.

Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 06-May-2007 at 13:50
I dont see this as a bad problem. EU is biggest market who have fair rules and near to Turkey.(USA is a big market too, but to far away from us.)
 
I am not saying that we should not trade with the EU, and trade with Asia instead. We cannot do that now. I am saying that we should protect our key industries and services (not like citrus production) until we are able to trade with EU on equal terms. Right now we are not protecting anything, so we are not benefitting form the trade with the EU.
 
I agree, we are becoming workforce of EU for low products but You cannot wait to reach EU with one day. We need at least another 100 year of stable and big growth rate to reach them.
 
If we don't have any trade barriers, we can wait for 1000 years without getting anywhere. I already told you, all countries that managed to develop after the Europeans, did so by: 1. Protecting their key industries with trade barriers until they were able to compete in the world market. 2. Ignoring patents and copying all technological developments that originate from developed countries. 3. Having development plans guided by the government and investing in key sectors. Right now we are doing none of this. A fourth point would be having access to large markets, which we have.
 
Anyway, the main point is that no country of Turkey's size managed to develop by doing that we are doing right now. This simply never happened in history.  
 
I also cannot see why EU is reason for this. Even before EU, We are producing low-profit margin products.
 
This is not true, actually. After the Great Depression, the government consciously tried to industrialise the country, preparing five-year plans and founding many factories, which are still around. The 'Urgent Plan for Development' was abandoned after World War II, as Turkey received the Marshall Aid and joined the American sphere.
 
Our economy can grow with trade and most importantly foreign investment..
 
Economies can grow by trade only if they export more than they import. Foreign investment is useful only if it is for the benefit of Turkish people, which means that Turkey decides the rules.
 
EU is both good for investment and trade. Also I should add, our import-export gap problems does not happen because of EU, but because of China, Russia and Iran..(Countries we want to trade.)
 
No, we have a trade deficit with EU. We also have a deficit with China, Iran and Russia, but there's not much we can do about that (we buy oil/gas from them or industrial goods, which nobody can produce cheaper than China).
 
When we have not a big cake, It is unbenefical to argue about how to divide cake.
 
Turkey is a normal country in terms of wealth/income. It is not rich, but not poor either. 'First we should get rich by any means, and then we can devise a just wealth distribution' is just a way to trick the poor. Typical capitalist lie. Wealth justice is required now, period.
 
Also, I think for last there month, our import-export gap is decreased.
 
Decreased, yes, but we still have a large deficit. No country ever developed by having a trade deficit.
 
It is funny, every country in world want foreign capital. Only in Turkey(and some other not developed country), people suspect from foreign capital.. It is sad army stoped this process much..
 
Well, I think there are many excellent reasons to suspect foreign capital without any taxation/control. Such as the great Asian crisis, following Russian crisis, and following Turkish crises of 1999 and 2001- it was the greatest recession in Turkish history since the second world war. Third world economies like Turkey's are vulnerable to speculation, like Thailand's.
 
For now, They know Turkey have no rules.So they will not invest their hardly gained money. This is a cheap game If you ask me..
 
Foreign markets are volatile as well. Turkey can remove all taxes and labour laws, turning the country into a slave plantation like some other countries do, but then suddenly George Bush will shoot himself in the ass in his ranch or declare war on Buddhism, and the foreign investors will lose interest in Third World economies, and no foreign capital will arrive.
 
Also lets not forget, If demand for Turkey will increase, so Turkey good will become more expensive.(Be sure Walmart have not su much money.
 
Walmart was just one example, to put things in scale. My point is the more you integrate Turkey to the world economy, the less control you have over your own economy.  
 
I find this thing a little nationalist. Yes, We sell our banks and factories. So what is problem? nationality of ownership of these banks and factories?
 
You are right. This is the difference between socialists and the kemalists who oppose globalisation. For them (the military and the CHP) as long as Turkish capital buys public assets, everything is OK. In fact they sell things to OYAK, a previlaged corporation related to the military. Socialists say these assets belong to the people, so they should not be privatised.
 
what is difference between a german and turk, who own a factory inside Turkey. (Except, Turks dont pay their tax.)
 
In fact, AKP removed some taxes for foreign investors, so that now a Turkish investor pays more tax than a foreign one to invest in Turkey (unless he knows some high ranking AKP member, of course).
 
Our problem is lack of capital. Who will invest Turkey, If we refuse globalisation.. Turkey should designate and support some key sectors. That is true, but globalization is not a problem for this.
 
Even if your market is completely open, you can't compete in the globalised market. Why? Because some other country will be willing and able to exploit it's population more, and investors will go there. AKP are neo-liberal ass kissers, but even they cannot dare to follow IMF's advice to scrap minimum wage in Turkey. Because they know that they can't, Turkish workers won't allow it. China can do it now by oppressing the workers, but not Turkey. Soon, China won't be able to do that either.
 
So Turkey should set up laws and taxes for foreign investors, and accept those who are still willing to invest. Those who are willing to invest only when they don't pay any taxes are likely to vanish in the first sign of a crisis anyway. That kind of investment damages more than it builds, as we know from previous crises.
 
Do you want expensive and unqualified good? If we resist globalisation, We will just have this.
 
Most people don't have much goods anyway. This exact mentality; 'opening markets in order to keep prices down' was a major reason why the Ottoman Empire collapsed. Mercantalist Europeans were protecting their markets and supporting their production industries, while our Emperors were giving them special benefits in order to boost trade so that they have a revenue from customs tax and the people can buy goods cheaply and in abundance and be happy...


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Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 06-May-2007 at 14:11
Türkistan’ın Milli Mücadele’ye verdiği destek, gönüllü mücahitlerle sınırlı değil tabii ki. Ne yazık ki, tarihe Rus yardımı olarak geçen fakat gerçekte Buhara Cumhuriyeti’nin gönderdiği 100 milyon altın ruble tutarındaki yardım vardır. Zor zamanda gelen bu yardım, Ankara Hükümeti için büyük moral ve güç kaynağı olur. Moskova’ya giden Türk heyetinin maddi yardım talebine Lenin olumsuz cevap verince devreye Buhara Cumhuriyeti Cumhurbaşkanı Osman Bey (Kocaoğlu) girer, Buhara’ya döner dönmez de yardım teklifini Meclis’e sunar. Buhara Meclisi teklifi tereddütsüz onaylayarak Timur Hazinesi’nden 100 milyon ruble değerindeki altının Türkiye’ye yollanmasına karar verir. O dönem için oldukça yüklü bir miktar olan yardım, Taşkent’ten vagonlara yüklenerek Moskova aracılığıyla gönderilir. Moskova, bu yardımların ancak 11 milyon altınlık kısmını 1920-1922 yılları arasında parça parça teslim eder. Geri kalan kısmı ise kendi hazinesine aktarır. Bu destek sebebiyle Atatürk, Buhara Cumhuriyeti’nin 1922’de Ruslar tarafından işgal edilmesi üzerine Türkiye’ye yerleşen Buhara Cumhurbaşkanı Osman Kocaoğlu’na sıcak ilgi gösterir, ölünceye kadar milletvekili maaşı bağlatır.

Your source for this garbage (which you call proof), Aksiyon magazine, belongs to Fethullah Gulen. A religious leader who lives in the US. Responsible for a lot of anti-communist propaganda, for obvious reasons.
 
For those who cannot read English, this says that after Lenin rejected the Turkish plea for help (which is lie, as I wrote above Halil Pasa was immediately supplied with gold and escorted to Turkey by the Red Army, who fought the Armenians on the way), president of Bukhara Republic (note that Bulldog's imaginary 'Turkeston Repobuc' now suddenly became Bukhara republic) decided to send help. And they sent 100 MILLION gold pieces (like 10 TIMES the assets of Ottomans' greatest bank at the time) from TIMUR's TREASURE on elephants. (I added the elephants part). On the way they were attacked by the 40 thieves, but saved by Ali Baba, luckily (OK, I made this up as well). Nevertheless evil Lenin (head of the Soviet Union) took 90 millions and gave the remaining 10 million to Turkey. But Turkish state saved this from the people and told them this is Soviet help.
 
Ridiculous story overall. 
 
There was some help from Turkestan but no 100 million gold pieces, that is absolutely ridiculous. Soviet help to Turkey was about 20 millions, started before they won the civil war, and gained control of Turkestan, and also included  large amounts of weapons and ammunition, which the fabricated article does not mention.
 
In gratitude Ataturk erected statues of Soviet Generals in Istanbul's primary square.
 
Wake up and open your eyes, your just re-telling old soviet empire fables.
 
Timur's treasure, now that is some fable.


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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 06-May-2007 at 16:12
Beylerbeyi
Your source for this garbage (which you call proof), Aksiyon magazine, belongs to Fethullah Gulen. A religious leader who lives in the US. Responsible for a lot of anti-communist propaganda, for obvious reasons.
 
 
Would you listen to yourself, you sound exactly like the people you think your so different from, you like calling anybody who differs with your views a "fascist", take a look in the mirror you may get a shock when you realise what you have become...
 
If you actually took any time to read the post you would realise that the article is about the documentary which was broadcasted on "Trt". Turkish state telecommunications.
 
 
 
Kurtuluş Savaşında Türkistanlılar
 
http://www.trt.net.tr/wwwtrt/progdetay.aspx?tanitimid=1968&tur=TV - http://www.trt.net.tr/wwwtrt/progdetay.aspx?tanitimid=1968&tur=TV
 
 
 
Kurtuluş Savaşında Türkistanlılar
Yönetmen: Abdulhamit Avşar, Figen Baranoğlu
Yapımcı: Can Soysal, Abdulhamit Avşar
TRT, milli mücadelenin pek bilinmeyen, ortaya konulmamış bir cephesini, Anadolu Türkleri’nin en zor zamanlarında onların yardımına koşan Orta Asya Türkleri’nin öyküsünü, “Kurtuluş Savaşı’nda Türkistanlılar” adlı belgeselle ekrana getiriyor.

30 aya yakın bir araştırma ve çekim sonrası hazırlanan belgesel için, ‘Türkistanlı ‘Kuvay-i Milliye’cilerin yakınları tespit edilerek 47 kişi ile yüz yüze görüşüldü.

Konunun uzmanı 15’e yakın akademisyen ve yerel tarih araştırmacısının bilgilerine başvuruldu. ‘TBMM Kütüphanesi’, ‘Milli Kütüphane’ ve ‘Atatürk Kütüphanesi’ başta olmak üzere, bir çok kuruluş ve kişinin özel arşivlerinden istifade edildi.

‘Hakimiyeti Milliye’, ‘Açıksöz’, ‘İkdam’ gibi dönemin önde gelen gazeteleri tarandı, TBMM tutanakları incelendi. Adana, İstanbul, Kastamonu, Tarsus, Mersin, Ankara, Osmaniye, Gaziantep, Kayseri, Sivas, İzmir, Konya, Kırıkkale, Antalya ve Isparta şehirlerinde çekimler yapıldı. Bu çekimler sırasında 10 bin km. den fazla yol katedildi. Böylece günümüze de ışık tutabilecek ve bugün kurulmak istenen ilişkilerin tarihi zeminini güçlendirecek “Kurtuluş Savaşı’nda Türkistanlılar” adlı 3 bölümlük belgesel ortaya çıktı.

Yapımını Can Soysal ve Abdulhamit Avşar, yönetimini Abdulhamit Avşar ve Figen Baranoğlu’nun üstlendiği belgeselin “Kuvay- i Milliyeci Türkistanlılar” adlı ikinci bölümünde, bir çoğu Birinci Dünya Savaşı’nda gönüllü olarak Osmanlı ordusu saflarında savaşa katılan ve ordu ile birlikte Anadolu’ya gelen Türkistanlıların Çukurova Milli Mücadelesi ve Antep Savunması’na katılış öykülerine yer veriliyor.

O dönem Milli Mücadele’ye katılan bir çok ‘Kuvay- i Milliye’cinin birinci derece yakınları ile yüz yüze görüşme, olayların geçtiği yerlerde çekimler yapma ve dönemin belgelerine dayanarak titiz bir çalışmayla hazırlanan belgeselde, bölgedeki Milli Mücadele’nin bir çok bilinmeyen yönü gözler önüne seriliyor. Çukurova Milli Mücadelesi’nin önemli isimlerinden Hacı Yoldaş ile Antep Savunması’nda Bombacı Mehmet Sait’in örnek mücadelelerine ışık tutuluyor.

Daha sonra ise Batı cephesinde savaşan Türkistanlılara değiniliyor.

 
 
 
Oh and why lie?
 
 
 
Türkistan’ın Milli Mücadele’ye verdiği destek, gönüllü mücahitlerle sınırlı değil tabii ki. Ne yazık ki, tarihe Rus yardımı olarak geçen fakat gerçekte Buhara Cumhuriyeti’nin gönderdiği 100 milyon altın ruble tutarındaki yardım vardır. Zor zamanda gelen bu yardım, Ankara Hükümeti için büyük moral ve güç kaynağı olur. Moskova’ya giden Türk heyetinin maddi yardım talebine Lenin olumsuz cevap verince devreye Buhara Cumhuriyeti Cumhurbaşkanı Osman Bey (Kocaoğlu) girer, Buhara’ya döner dönmez de yardım teklifini Meclis’e sunar. Buhara Meclisi teklifi tereddütsüz onaylayarak Timur Hazinesi’nden 100 milyon ruble değerindeki altının Türkiye’ye yollanmasına karar verir. O dönem için oldukça yüklü bir miktar olan yardım, Taşkent’ten vagonlara yüklenerek Moskova aracılığıyla gönderilir. Moskova, bu yardımların ancak 11 milyon altınlık kısmını 1920-1922 yılları arasında parça parça teslim eder. Geri kalan kısmı ise kendi hazinesine aktarır. Bu destek sebebiyle Atatürk, Buhara Cumhuriyeti’nin 1922’de Ruslar tarafından işgal edilmesi üzerine Türkiye’ye yerleşen Buhara Cumhurbaşkanı Osman Kocaoğlu’na sıcak ilgi gösterir, ölünceye kadar milletvekili maaşı bağlatır.
 
The support given by Turkistan to the Independance struggle was not limited to popular public support and a few regiments who joined the movement. Unfortunately, what is commongly known as the "Russian" aid, actually came from the "Bukhara Republic", who dispatched 100 million golden rubble. This help which came at the most critical of times, gave a financial and moral boost to the newly formed Ankara Government. The Ankara envoy went to Moscow to raise help, when Lenin announced that they could not help them, the president of the Buhara Republic Osman Bey Kocaoglu intervined. He went back to Bukhara and put forward his request to the parliment. The parliment agreed to send 100 million rubble from Timur's Treasurey to Turkey.  The capital was from Tashkent via railway via Moscow under protection of Russia. Moscow allowed 11 million rubble to be sent from 1920-1922 in installments and kept the rest in her own treasury. When the Bukhara Republic was occupied by Russia Ataturk gave refuge to the leaders of the Republic and paid their wages in Turkey.
 
 
Beylerbeyi
Ridiculous story overall. 
 
I'll tell you what is ridiculous, still believing age old Soviet propoganda that it was them who gave this financial aid and that Turkistan Turks had absolutely nothing to do with it.
 
 
 
TÜRKİSTAN TÜRKLERİNİN KURTULUŞ SAVAŞI'NA VE CUMHURİYET'E KATKILARI

Abdulvahap KARA
 
Kurtuluş Savaşı'na gerçek anlamda para desteği, 100 milyon altın ruble gibi bir meblağı verme çabası Buhara Halk Cumhuriyeti'nden gelmiştir. 1873'ten Sovyet hükümeti tarafından istiklalinin tanındığı 1918 yılına dek Çarlık Rusyasına bağlı, yarı müstakil devlet konumunda olan Buhara o dönemde Türkistan'ın en zengin Hanlığı idi. Ticari faaliyetler sayesinde Buhara Hanlığı büyük bir zenginliğe ve altın rezervine sahip olmuştu [25] . Bu zenginlik sayesinde Buhara emiri Petersburg'da büyükçe cami yaptırabilmiştir [26] . Kızıl Ordu tarafından 2 Eylül 1920'de yıkılan Buhara Hanlığı'nın yerine 6 Ekim 1920'de Buhara Halk Cumhuriyeti ilan edilmesinden [27] sonra, Buhara Halk Cumhuriyeti'nin Osman Kocaoğlu başkanlığındaki temsilcileri Moskova'ya giderek Lenin ile görüşme yaparlar.

Bu görüşmede Buhara heyeti, Lenin'e Türkiye için 100 milyon altın ruble yardım vermeyi taahhüt ederler. Heyet Buhara'ya döndükten sonra, bu konu parlamentoda oylanır ve Türkiye'ye yardım tek itiraz sesi yükselmeden oy birliği ile kabul edilir. Vaat edilen 100 milyon altın da en kısa zaman zarfında Moskova'ya ulaştırılır [28] . Bu teslimat konusunda elimizde herhangi vesika yoktur. Ancak Türkistan'da o devrin olaylarını yaşamış şahsiyetlerden ve Türkistan tarihi mütehassısı Z. V. Togan [29] ve Türkistan'daki esir Osmanlı subaylarından Raci Çakıröz [30] bu yardımın yapıldığını teyit etmektedir. Ne yazık ki bu yardım hedefine ulaşmamıştır. Sovyetlerin Türkiye'ye Eylül 1920 ile Mayıs 1922 tarihleri arasında yaptığı nakdi yardımlar da Buhara Cumhuriyeti'nin teslim ettiği 100 milyon rublenin çok altında, 11 milyon ruble civarındadır [31] .
 
[25] Stephane A. Dudoignon, “Orta Asya'da Siyasal Değişmeler ve Tarihyazımı, Tacikistan ve Özibekistan 1987-1993”, Unutkan Tarih Sovyet Sonrası Türkdilli Alan , (Haz. Semih Vaner), İstanbul 1997, s. 115.
[26] Kurat, s. 425.
[27] Buhara Halk Cumhuriyeti 19 Eylül 1924'te Moskova'ya muhalif güçler temizlenerek Buhara Sosyalist Cumhuriyeti ilan edilinceye kadar, milli güçler tarafından Moskova'dan bağımsız bir şekilde idare edildi. Bu konuda bkz. İ. Yarkın, “Buhara Hanlığı'nın Sovyet Rusya Tarafından Ortadan Kaldırılması ve Buhara Halk Cumhuriyeti'nin Kuruluşu”, Türk Kültürü , sayı 76, Ankara, Şubat 1969, s. 297-303; B. Hayit, Türkistan Rusya ile Çin arasında , s. 264.
[28] Yakın Tarihimiz , 3 Mayıs 1962, Cilt I, sayı 10, s. 292-293; N. Öktem, “Osman Kocaoğlu'nun Ardından”, Türk Kültürü , Eylül 1968, sayı 71, s. 878; M. Saray, Milli Mücadele Yıllarında Atatürk'ün Sovyet Politikası , İstanbul, 1984, s. 55-57.
[29] Z. V. Togan, Hatıralar , İstanbul, 1969, s. 363.
[30] T. Kocaoğlu, “Türkistan'da Türk Subayları (1914-1923)”, Türk Dünyası Tarih Dergisi , Ağustos 1987, sayı 8, s. 47.
[31] Saray, s. 57.
 
 
 
They gave financial and millitary aid, its a shame you deny this, infact I wouldn't be suprised if you accused them and everyone else of some wild anti-communist conspiracy.
 
 
Beylerbeyi
Soviet help to Turkey was about 20 million
 
The documentary explains this, it was 11 million taken out of the 100 million given by Turkistan given in installments between 1920-22.
 
Or is TrT now also a tool of Gulen...


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine


Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 06-May-2007 at 18:30
Central Asia had no arm industry, as Beylerbeyi mentioned before.

Even our 'official' historians admit that Turkey had good relations with Soviets during the independence war.

If I recall correctly, you were defending the idea of Turanism. And everybody knows that you are a Turk in British disguise.

Drop the act.

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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 06-May-2007 at 19:25

Its not the supply of "arms" that is being discussed, its the financial aid with which arms and other supplies were bought, this is undeniable its on record.

Oh and didn't it ever occur to you that somebody can be Brittish by right and have another ethnicity. You really have issues with debating, typically instead of discussing, if views differ to yours you start chidish insults...

 

 


-------------
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine


Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 06-May-2007 at 20:53
Bulldog,
 
as Feanor writes, even official Turkish history does not deny Soviet help. Only a handful of panislamist and turanist cranks do. Since you are a google nationalist, it is understandable that you have a distorted view of things.  
 
In fact, even your delusional sources don't deny Soviet help. Because they say the Soviets gave 11 millions, from a total 500 millions from the Azteks' lost treasure (sorry I got carried again). It is known that Soviet aid was around 20 millions in total. Where's the rest?
 
Also, Soviets sent a lot of weapons (I'm writing this for the third time or so). So far your only reply to this was 'the discussion is not about weapons'. Rather pathetic.
 
And we are yet to hear why there are statues of Soviet generals Furunze and Voroshilov behind Ataturk and Inonu, in the Republic monument in Taksim square? Let me guess, it is a communist myth, they are actually Timur and Genghis Khan?
 
Anyway, if you were able to read Turkish, you would have seen that (relatively) smart turanists or whatever anti-soviet group you are part of, including Turkish official history (written from a pro-American anti-Soviet point of view) after World War 2, actually don't deny Soviet help but rather say 'Soviets helped us not because they like us but because they did not want their enemies the Western powers in Turkey, controlling the straits'. 
Man, this is why I don't like google nationalists, one has to teach them their own party lines...
 
I'll translate your new article (written by a panturkist- what a surprise), for you, since you obviously don't understand what it says:
 
'Kızıl Ordu tarafından 2 Eylül 1920'de yıkılan Buhara Hanlığı'nın yerine 6 Ekim 1920'de Buhara Halk Cumhuriyeti ilan edilmesinden [27] sonra, Buhara Halk Cumhuriyeti'nin Osman Kocaoğlu başkanlığındaki temsilcileri Moskova'ya giderek Lenin ile görüşme yaparlar. '
 
He writes that the Bukharan People's Republic (changed the name again), was founded AFTER THE RED ARMY ENTERED BUKHARA ON 2 OCTOBER 1920. As I wrote before Ataturk wrote to Lenin on APRIL 1920 (as mentioned in 'Nutuk'. Do you know what 'Nutuk' is?). And Lenin sent help with Halil Pasa on 1 JULY 1920. Before Bukharan People's Republic was declared.
 
Bu görüşmede Buhara heyeti, Lenin'e Türkiye için 100 milyon altın ruble yardım vermeyi taahhüt ederler. Heyet Buhara'ya döndükten sonra, bu konu parlamentoda oylanır ve Türkiye'ye yardım tek itiraz sesi yükselmeden oy birliği ile kabul edilir. Vaat edilen 100 milyon altın da en kısa zaman zarfında Moskova'ya ulaştırılır [28] .
 
Here he claims that Bukharan Republic sent 100 million golden rubles to Moscow. His sources for this fantastic claim are all dodgy Turkish books and turanist journals, oldest of which is dated 1962.
 
Bu teslimat konusunda elimizde herhangi vesika yoktur. Ancak Türkistan'da o devrin olaylarını yaşamış şahsiyetlerden ve Türkistan tarihi mütehassısı Z. V. Togan [29] ve Türkistan'daki esir Osmanlı subaylarından Raci Çakıröz [30] bu yardımın yapıldığını teyit etmektedir.
  
 
This is what he writes: 'WE DON'T HAVE ANY DOCUMENTS TO PROVE THIS TRANSFER TOOK PLACE'. And continues 'but Z.V.Togan (a famous turanist) and another guy who was there said it happened (he takes this claim from a turanist magazine)'.
 
Wow, really solid proof there. So the small, war torn Bukharan People's Republic (which he claims was independent even though it was founded by the Red Army!) gave the Soviets 10 times the amount of the assets of Ottoman Empire's largest bank, without any documentation whatsoever, but since two turanist guys said it happened, it must be true. I am sure you convinced everybody now.
 
Ne yazık ki bu yardım hedefine ulaşmamıştır. Sovyetlerin Türkiye'ye Eylül 1920 ile Mayıs 1922 tarihleri arasında yaptığı nakdi yardımlar da Buhara Cumhuriyeti'nin teslim ettiği 100 milyon rublenin çok altında, 11 milyon ruble civarındadır [31] .
 
Then he says 'unfortunately this help didn't reach its destination. Soviets gave Turkey only 11 million rubles out of the 100, between September 1920 and May 1922'. Again no mention of financial help before September 1920 or help in equipment. 
 
But I should say that your story got slightly less ridiculous. At least this guy doesn't say that the gold came from Timur's treasure. He improved the quality of the lie there. I think in the next version of the lie they should reduce the 100 million a little.
 
They gave financial and millitary aid, its a shame you deny this, infact I wouldn't be suprised if you accused them and everyone else of some wild anti-communist conspiracy.
 
Hmm, I think you also have a problem with understanding English, even though it is your native language; I already wrote in the previous message that some help came from Turkestan. What we are laughing at is your 'Soviets sent no help it all came from Turkestan' claims. You are trying to put words into my mouth here ('anti-communist conspiracy' etc.) but you are the one who is putting forward wild evil communist conspiracy theories, calling historical facts 'myths'.
 
Or is TrT now also a tool of Gulen...
 
Yeah, you saw it on TV, so it must be true... Hey it is also on the internet! Now that makes this undisputable fact... You Google nationalist, just the fact that you believe what Turkish state TV says proves that you are not Turkish, and will never be.


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Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 07-May-2007 at 08:57

I think there is nothing more to write here.

I will go now, thanks everyone. Maybe I'll come again later when something important/interesting happens.


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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 07-May-2007 at 09:40
He lives!
Welcome back, if indeed it is a coming-back :)


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Arrrgh!!"

Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 07-May-2007 at 17:17
go bulldogg go, keep him here for a moment LOL

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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg -

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 07-May-2007 at 18:25
Beylerbeyi
as Feanor writes, even official Turkish history does not deny Soviet help. Only a handful of panislamist and turanist cranks do. Since you are a google nationalist, it is understandable that you have a distorted view of things.  
 
So TRT, is a panIslamist and turanist crank show isit? Turkish state media made a 13 part documentary on this issue, I really suggest you watch it and read up on it.
 
Soviets didn't give direct help, there merely allowed the funds raised by Turkistan and also by other muslim regions to be transported safely via Moscow on their railway.
 
 
Beylerbeyi
In fact, even your delusional sources don't deny Soviet help. Because they say the Soviets gave 11 millions
 
Yes, that's what is written, if you became a little more open-minded and actually read the articles you would realise this. The money was raised by Turkistan and other muslim regions, Lenin agreed that it could be sent via the Russian railway safely. However, Moscow took 90% and just dispatch 11 million.
 
Its not suprising, I don't know why your so shocked and outraged.
 
 
Beylerbeyi
Also, Soviets sent a lot of weapons
 
Most weapons used in the Independance War were those smuggled out of Istanbul. Soviets also helped and there were also thousands of Turkistan and other muslims who came to what is today Turkiye to help in the war.
 
 
 
Beylerbeyi
As I wrote before Ataturk wrote to Lenin on APRIL 1920 (as mentioned in 'Nutuk'. Do you know what 'Nutuk' is?). And Lenin sent help with Halil Pasa on 1 JULY 1920.
 
Nope, Lenin did not promise anything, this is adressed in the documentary.
 
 
Moskova’ya giden Türk heyetinin maddi yardım talebine Lenin olumsuz cevap verince devreye Buhara Cumhuriyeti Cumhurbaşkanı Osman Bey (Kocaoğlu) girer, Buhara’ya döner dönmez de yardım teklifini Meclis’e sunar. Buhara Meclisi teklifi tereddütsüz onaylayarak Timur Hazinesi’nden 100 milyon ruble değerindeki altının Türkiye’ye yollanmasına karar verir.
 
Its a shame you would like to wipe Osman Kocaoglu Bey out of the history books...
 
 
Beylerbeyi
But I should say that your story got slightly less ridiculous. At least this guy doesn't say that the gold came from Timur's treasure. 
 
Its the name of the treasury, no need for conspiracies. 
 
 
Beylerbeyi
 I already wrote in the previous message that some help came from Turkestan.
What we are laughing at is your 'Soviets sent no help it all came from Turkestan' claims. 
 
The Soviets allowed safe-passage of the aid as is written in the article and explained in the documentary, so they helped in this account.
 
 
 
Beylerbeyi
just the fact that you believe what Turkish state TV says proves that you are not Turkish, and will never be.
 
So I should trust "you" over TRT LOL Talk about blowing your own trumpet...


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine


Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-May-2007 at 03:29
 
Right now we are not protecting anything, so we are not benefitting form the trade with the EU.
 
are you aware of ratios? Sure, we have problem with import-export rate.(Reason is generally large demand for both consumption and investment goods.)
 
Now, Lets look at first 10 country, Turkey exported and imported.
 
 2007 october november december..
 
Export..
 
1- Almanya 2,709,919 11.7
2- İngiltere 1,810,306 7.8
3- İtalya 1,761,723 7.6
4- Fransa 1,310,708 5.7
5- İspanya 1,052,340 4.6
6- Rusya Federasyonu 957,748 4.1
7- Romanya 810,360 3.5
8- A.B.D. 952,896 4.1
9- B.A.E. 692,098 3.0
10- Hollanda 649,552 2.8
 
Import ....
 
1- Rusya Federasyonu 4,964,610 14.3
2- Almanya 3,432,639 9.9
3- Çin 2,598,988 7.5
4- İtalya 2,026,393 5.8
5- A.B.D. 1,656,214 4.8
6- Fransa 1,671,650 4.8
7- İngiltere 1,267,888 3.6
8- İran 1,401,432 4.0
9- Ukrayna 1,017,560 2.9

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-May-2007 at 03:32
GENİŞ EKONOMİK GRUPLARIN SINIFLAMASINA (GEGS) GÖRE İTHALAT
Milyon Dolar
  YILLIK
2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006
YATIRIM MALLARI 11,365 6,940 8,400 11,326 17,397 20,363 23,145
Yatırım malları-(Ulaşım araçları hariç) 9,264 5,882 7,571 9,823 13,494 17,120 19,487
Sanayii ve taşımacılıkta kullanılan araçlar 2,101 1,058 828 1,503 3,904 3,243 3,658
ARA MALLARI 36,010 30,301 37,656 49,735 67,549 81,868 98,593
Sanayiide kullanılan işlenmemiş gıda maddeleri 2,784 2,037 2,957 4,290 5,776 6,027 7,182
Sanayiide kullanılan işlenmiş gıda maddeleri 16,099 13,884 18,032 24,105 33,407 39,549 46,055
İşlenmemiş madeni yakıtlar ve yağlar 4,835 4,181 4,957 5,718 7,329 14,699 19,754
Yatırım mallarının aksam ve parçaları 3,944 3,161 4,168 4,840 6,432 6,747 7,559
Taşıt araçlarının aksam ve parçaları 3,160 2,468 2,704 3,942 6,544 7,427 8,609
Sanayiide kullanılan işlenmemiş diğer maddeler 519 301 532 957 944 866 772
Sanayiide kullanılan işlenmiş diğer maddeler 333 299 400 525 624 762 943
İşlenmiş madeni yakıtlar ve yağlar 4,336 3,969 3,906 5,356 6,492 5,791 7,720
TÜKETİM MALLARI 6,928 3,813 4,898 7,813 12,100 13,975 16,010
Binek otomobilleri 2,596 587 813 2,220 4,214 4,296 4,255
Dayanıklı tüketim malları 1,126 632 687 917 1,440 1,839 2,267
Yarı dayanıklı tüketim malları 932 723 869 1,265 1,911 2,506 3,239
Dayanıksız tüketim malları 1,371 1,317 1,739 2,355 3,184 3,415 3,711
İşlenmemiş gıda maddeleri 178 115 127 119 149 270 315
İşlenmiş gıda maddeleri 317 239 300 404 528 645 750
Benzin  344 166 329 494 556 712 1,062
Sanayiide kullanılmayan taşıt araçları 66 35 34 39 119 292 411
DİĞERLERİ 199 344 600 466 493 567 543
TOPLAM 54,503 41,399 51,554 69,340 97,540 116,774 138,290
 
Lets look at what are we importing. As we see, We are importing more investment good than consumption good.
 
I dont see, how can we harm from importing investment goods..
 

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-May-2007 at 05:09
ÜLKE GRUPLARINA GÖRE İHRACAT
       
  OCAK - MART
2006 2007 % DAĞ.
GENEL İHRACAT TOPLAMI 18,597 23,101 100.0
A- AVRUPA BİRLİĞİ ÜLKELERİ (27) 10,672 13,381 57.9
B- TÜRKİYE SERBEST BÖLGELERİ 659 659 2.9
C- DİĞER ÜLKELER 7,266 9,060 39.2
1- DİĞER AVRUPA 1,579 2,228 9.6
2- AFRİKA 918 1,152 5.0
      Kuzey Afrika 588 722 3.1
      Diğer Afrika 330 430 1.9
3- AMERİKA 1,632 1,270 5.5
      Kuzey Amerika 1,496 1,022 4.4
      Orta Amerika ve Karayip 68 122 0.5
      Güney Amerika 69 125 0.5
4- ASYA 3,033 4,238 18.3
      Yakın ve Ortadoğu 2,264 3,160 13.7
      Diğer Asya 769 1,078 4.7
5- AVUSTRALYA VE YENİ ZELANDA 57 81 0.4
6- DİĞER ÜLKE ve BÖLGELER 46 91 0.4
 
 
 
ÜLKE GRUPLARINA GÖRE İTHALAT
 
  OCAK - MART
2006 2007 % DAĞ. 
GENEL İTHALAT TOPLAMI 29,543 34,752 100.0
A- AB (27) 12,895 14,379 41.4
B- TÜRKİYE SERBEST BÖLGELERİ 178 264 0.8
C- DİĞER ÜLKELER 16,470 20,109 57.9
1- DİĞER AVRUPA 5,254 7,067 20.3
2- AFRİKA 1,767 1,480 4.3
      Kuzey Afrika 1,235 818 2.4
      Diğer Afrika 532 663 1.9
3- AMERİKA 1,864 2,400 6.9
      Kuzey Amerika 1,399 1,789 5.1
      Orta Amerika ve Karayip 76 82 0.2
      Güney Amerika 390 530 1.5
4- ASYA 7,513 9,061 26.1
      Yakın ve Ortadoğu 1,917 2,331 6.7
      Diğer Asya 5,595 6,730 19.4
5- AVUSTRALYA VE YENİ ZELANDA 44 73 0.2
6- DİĞER ÜLKE VE BÖLGELER 29 28 0.1

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 10-May-2007 at 05:14
I think this is enough to see harm of EU.Confused

Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 10-May-2007 at 07:39
Bulldog is trolling again! Angry Angry

Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 10-May-2007 at 13:21
In order to understand the political chaos in Turkey, just see how Turkish members are arguing.(I am jokingWink)

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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)

Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 10-May-2007 at 13:49

That sarcasm doesn't make any sense, Spartakus. Confused Irrelevant.

Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 10-May-2007 at 13:54

Is it?In the last 2 webpages Turkish members are the only ones who argue against each other.Wink



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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)

Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 10-May-2007 at 13:58
If you had read them you would probably have realized that those are totally off-topic. Confused

Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 10-May-2007 at 17:15
Dude,i am joking. Does it matter whether their talk seriously or not?No.Unhappy

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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)


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