Scythian wrote:Not true. The genetics of the populations of modern Europe match 99% with the Europeans from ancient times. About 80% of the population of Europe is here since the palaeolithic times, and the other 20% is here since the Neolithic.

Your thesis would be OK if the word Europeans is replaced by IE. They'd spreaded to the East then wave by wave were coming back. Say, Visigoths +Alans + Celts +Romans still remain IE. And so on.

And which are your sources if I may ask?

Because all data corresponds to the opposite!

cavalry4ever

>>Proof of what I am saying is that most of people living in Italy or Greece do not match physical descriptions of Romans or Greeks of Antiquity.<<

I can't or rather won't comment "modern-day" Italians but all genetic studies prove that the population of Hellas does match 95% (if not higher) the "physical description" of the ancients.

Of course Hellines are not a "pure race", but the available data demonstrate
that any potential introgression into the Hellinic gene pool were minor and did not replace the indigenous people. Hence, Fallmerayer's thesis has been disproved. (Falmayer is the main supporter of the Slavic influence theory).

Here are some selected parts:

For the supporters of the Turkish rape theory that suggests non-"pure" Hellinic population:

The most comprehensive study of Y-chromosomal diversity in Europe thus far is Rosser et al., [1]. The human Y chromosome is passed on from father to son. One can thus study one half of a population's ancestry (along the paternal line) by studying the Y-chromosome. Greek Y-chromosomes belong to haplogroups HG1, HG2, HG3, HG9, HG21 and HG26. None of the 35 Greek Y chromosomes are of non-Caucasoid origin.
A second Y-chromosome study including Greeks have also shown similar results. Helgason et al., [2] reports one HG16 sequence of North Eurasian provenance in a sample of 42 Greeks (at least 97.6% Caucasoid). To put this in perspective, eight HG16 chromosomes occur in 110 Swedes (at least 92.7% Caucasoid) and three HG16 sequences in 112 Norwegians (at least 97.3% Caucasoid) were also found. HG16 is shared by many populations ranging from Europe to Mongolia. Its origin has been placed by [7] in the Eastern range of its current geographical distribution.

Racial continuity:

J. Lawrence Angel sorted Greek skeletal tendencies into six arbitrary morphological types, including several sub-varieties. These were not “races,” but rather [1]:

“Types are entirely aribitrary creations from sorting of individuals. Genetically determined traits will recombine and re-form in each new generation largely at random so that types cannot express these new individualities adequately, only schematically. At best they give a preliminary overview of change.”

Angel studied skeletal material from the Paleolithic to modern times, and participated in examinations of skeletal material throughout the East Mediterranean. With respect to Greece, he found that the morphological types already established in the third millennium BC, if not before that, persisted in all subsequent ages. Thus, he emphasized the racial continuity of Greeks, stating epigrammatically [2]:

“Racial continuity in Greece is striking.”

More on racial continuity:

THE ORIGIN OF THE GREEKS BY ARIS N. POULIANOS

(1961, 1964, 1968, 1988)

(The book is sold out, but soon will be republished).

Four successive editions, constantly enriched with new data, are edited concerning the Anthropological - Ethnogenetic study of the Greek population. The basis of this work is Aris N. Poulianos dissertation, which took place in the University of Moscow, under the supervision of the famous professor of Anthropology F. G. Debetz. The research was based on the study of 70 human characteristics (p. ex. body height, width of face, skin colour, shape of eyes etc.) of about 3000 Greek emigrants (after 1949 civil war) in the f. Soviet Union from different Hellenic areas. The statistical elaboration of these characteristics in combination with their geographical distribution demonstrated mathematically (because of their low dispersion) the incessant biological continuity of the Greeks all through the historic and prehistoric epochs, which refer at least to the Mesolithic and Upper Palaeolithic periods (15.000-30.000 years). This historical continuity is also proved by the comparison of measurements of the contemporary inhabitants with those of the ancient skulls of Greece, which statistically show no differences. Despite the occasional influences and limited migrations of populations, the anthropological research has shown that the population of Greece is basically native and that the contemporary Greeks are descendants of the ancient peoples who resided in the Greek peninsula.

For all those that believe in the TWISTED theory of all ancient Hellines being blone and blue-eyed. (Nordic theory)

Proof in literature:
There are numerous references to brunets in ancient mythology and literature, e.g., the Muses, Poseidon, Alcmena, Theseus, Zeus, Dionysos and Odysseus are described as possessing either dark hair or dark eyes. Hercules, the Greeks' favorite hero is described as dark (melanan), hook-nosed (grupon) by Dicaearchus (Clement of Alexandria, "Protreptic to the Greeks" 2.30.7). Hercules was also proverbially melampugos (having a black behind) as indicative of his bravery, as opposed to pugargos (having a white behind), a coward . Irwin, E., 1974, Colour Terms in Greek Poetry, Hakkert, Toronto

Artistic Evidence:
Greek art furnishes important information about the racial type of the ancient Hellenes. Coon in observed that the beauty ideal of a straight nose and a lithe body was borrowed from Minoan Crete which was undisputably peopled by Mediterraneans.The characteristic nose-forehead continuity of idealistic depictions of gods and heroes is more typical of Mediterraneans than Nordics , although it was rare for ancient Greeks as it is for modern ones. Angel observes though, that his Dinaric-Mediterranean (Type F) morphological type approaches this ideal, in contrast to the Nordic-Iranian (Type D) in which the nasal bone projects at a sharp angle with the frontal bone.

And my favourite:

The following article, published in 1939 in American Anthropologist shows how the Nordicist tendencies of the National Socialist regime affected historical instruction in Germany. Nordicist theories were actually viewed with scorn among many educated Germans, and have been abandoned altogether by science. The neo-Nordicists of today continue in essence to plagiarize the Nordicists of the past, in the absence of any scientific evidence for the alleged primacy of the Nordic race:

American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 36, No. 1. (Jan. - Mar., 1934), pp. 139-141.

The alleged "Sub-Saharan" theory

In numerous recent studies, the mitochondrial DNA of Greeks was examined and was found to be predominantly Caucasoid with only infrequent presence of "erratic" sequences from non-Caucasoid sources. Mitochondrial DNA ("mtDNA") is inherited from one's mother and is thus a good way to establish the maternal ancestry of a population.

The most comprehensive European-wide study of mtDNA is [1] in which 125 Greeks were sampled among thousands of Europeans. The Greeks and the Albanians appear in the "Mediterranean-East" category of the study. Greeks tested belonged overwhelmingly to the Caucasoid-specific haplogroups ("Seven Daughters of Eve" popularized by Bryan Sykes' book).

The "erratic" sequences include a Sub-Saharan African (L1a) sequence, which was derived from the Albanian part of the sample [2]. The other two sequences non-attributed to a European founder are members of haplogroups prevalent in Asia, M and D. Thus, the total percentage of erratics in the Greek sample was 1.6%. The Greeks, like most Europeans are fairly pure in terms of their maternal ancestry.

The whole acticles can be posted if asked to.

Scythian

To be honest genetics really isn't my field of expertise, I am actually just starting on this but have found alot of reading material. So based on this material this is what I've found : (any corrections and reading suggestions will be appreciated)

Haplogroup E3b cluster alpha is found in the Balkans, but Hellas is part of the Balkans and Hellines have the highest frequency of E3b (40-50% in the Peloponnese). It cannot substantiate "Slavic" admixture, because it represents the indigenous (pre-Slavic) population of the Balkans, and not the Proto-Slavic population. Indeed, E3b is almost absent in the northern Slavs, which again indicates that it was mostly absent in the Proto-Slavs.

cavalry4ever

>>Only truly ancient people, left in Europe, are Basques and Albanians. Both have a pretty misterious past.<<

Beside the very well supported arguments that point to a Caucasus origin for the Albanians, genetics do help us come to similar conclusions of "non-purity".         ;  I think Scythian will cover this better than I do but the very fact that the Albanians have the highest percentage of Haplogroups E-M78* and E-M78a that are mostly found in both North and South Africa do prove exactly the same.

Scythian

>>but that also means that some of my ancestors in the distant past adopted Slavic as their own language.<<

Now, I'm lost, sorry but just can't follow.

What does adopting Slavic as their language have to do with genetics, and since the Haplogroups E-M78* and E-M78a are found in Africa and as you said Y linages follow males and the mutation rate is slow. Isn't this the proof needed to come to the conclusion of the "non-purity" of the Albanian people and thus reject what cavalry4ever said?

>>Only truly ancient people, left in Europe, are Basques and Albanians<<

Kubrat
Good arguments can be found all over the net, all you have to do is search in the right place.

I belong to a Slavic ethnicity, but my Y-lineage is local Balkanoid,
thus, present here some 10.000 years before the Slavs ever arrived.

Now you lost me.

I explained how the various haplogroups entered Europe. Some did some 40.000 years ago, others did later, but nobody came less than 8000 years ago.

The Albanians are of the same genetic lineages as the rest of the Balkans,
just like the Baques are similar to their neighbours.
 
No modern nation is 'older' than anyone else. Languages and nationalities change, but populations remain.

Scythian, the territory of present Poland had been depopulated before Serbs, Croats and other tribes settled here arround VI century AD. It's against your thesis of the continuity of European lineages.

In the social systems which included slavery, male slavs were not allowed to procreate. Therefore I don't think that the results of genetic research are diagnostic and reliable. Can you proof that Turks and Arabs (importers of slavs) have significat percentage of genetic changes in female lineage?

Nope, it wasn't depopulated. Where did you get that?

Did I wrote the Slavs?  . And I must disappoint you. Archeological digs show depopulation of present day Poland in the 6th Century AD, and this evidence is supported by the sources as well. See Historia Francorum and De Bello Gothico II: 15.

Excellent point!

The Slavs brought their military influence in the Balkans, together with culture and language.  (Scythian)

1. Sclaveni migrated to Balkans governed by Bulgar Bans  (Avars gave them this role), and their language and culture was not "oh, so attractive" that 80% accepted it immediately. Especiall there in Illirycum. Perhaps old-church-slavonic was kind of a linqua latina for many populations but not for the Romans and Greeks.

2.This kind of research could easily proof (if needed politicaly) that American WASP's are in fact Indian aborigenes and have rights to this land. It's easy to find the same genes in both populations thousands years ago. I do appreciate your knowledge but I have distance to genetic and linguistic theories as well.

Get your facts straight.

1. Bulgars came after Slavs.
2. Romans and Greeks geopolitical influence at the time was out of the picture.
3. Old-Church Slavonic was some 3 centuries in the future at the time.

Because you have political agendas.
A teritory belongs to the one who conquers it. Perhaps this seems unfair to you,
but it's the only realistic view.

Sure, people can whine about everything, but it doesn't change anything in the long run.