Here is some info on the man who kept the Turks away from Albania and was a help to keeping them out of Western Europe:

 Gjergj Kastrioti (1405–January 17, 1468), better known as Skanderbeg, was an Albanian who united his people and resisted the expanding Ottoman Empire for 25 years and is today considered a national hero of Albania.

He was born in Krujë, Albania; his father was an Albanian nobleman, Gjon Kastrioti, lord of Middle Albania. The Kastrioti family are originally from the Northern Alps of Albania but later migrated to middle Albania where they became noblemen, lording over Kruja.  

Obliged by the Ottomans to pay tribute to the Empire, and to ensure the fidelity of local rulers, Gjon Kastrioti's sons were taken by the Sultan to his court as hostages. In 1423, Gjergj Kastrioti and his three brothers were taken by the Turks. He attended military school and led many battles for the Ottoman Empire. He was awarded for his military victories with the title Iskander Bey (Albanian transliteration: Skënderbeu, English transliteration: Skanderbeg). In Turkish this title means Lord or Prince Alexander (in honor of Alexander the Great). Skanderbeg soon switched sides and came back to his native land to successfully defended Albania against the Ottoman Empire until his death.

He was distinguished as one of the best officers in several Ottoman campaigns both in Asia Minor and in Europe, and the Sultan appointed him General. He even fought against Greeks, Serbs and Hungarians, and some sources claim that he used to maintain secret links with Ragusa, Venice, Ladislaus V of Hungary and Alfonso I of Naples. Sultan Murad II gave him the title Vali that made him the General Governor of some provinces in central Albania. He was respected everywhere but he missed his country. After his father died, Skanderbeg was looking for a way to return to Albania and lead his countrymen against the Ottoman armies. It is because of Skanderbeg's 25 year defiance of the Ottoman Empire that perserved Christianity in Albania to this day. The Turks were successful in converting almost 90% of Albania into Muslims. Those who chose to resist Turkish rule and embrace their Albanian heritage and perserve their culture are today's Albanian Christians.

In 1443, Skanderbeg saw his opportunity during the battle against the Hungarians led by John Hunyadi in Nis. He switched sides along with other Albanians serving in the Ottoman army. He eventually captured Kruje, his father's seat in Middle Albania. Above the castle he rose the Albanian flag, a red flag with a black two-headed eagle, and pronounced the words: "I have not brought you liberty, I found it here, among you." He managed to unite all Albanian princes at the town of Lezhë (see League of Lezhë, 1444) and united them under his command to fight against the Ottomans. He fought a guerilla war against the opposing armies by using the mountainous terrain to his advantage.

During the next 25 years, with forces rarely exceeding 20,000, he fought against the most powerful army of the time. In June 1450 an Ottoman army numbering approximately 150,000 and led by the Sultan Murad II in person, laid siege to Kruja. Leaving a protective garrison of 1,500 men under one of his best lieutenants, Kont Urani, or Vranakonti, Scanderbeg harassed the Ottoman camps around Kruja as well as the caravans coming to supply the Sultan's army. By September the Ottoman camp was in disarray as morale sunk and diseases spread as wild fire. Grudgingly, Sultan Murad finally acknowledged that the castle of Kruja would not have fallen by only strength of arms, so he decided to lift his encampment and make his way to Edirne. Soon thereafter he died and his son Mehmed was crowned Sultan.

For the next five years Albania was allowed some respite as the new Sultan, Mehmed II, set out to conquer the last vestiges of the Byzantine Empire in Europe and Asia Minor. The first test between the Ottoman Sultan and Skanderbeg came in 1455 during the Siege of Berat, where the former defeated the latter by decimating the Albanian army and leaving five-thousand dead in the field of battle, some 40-50% of all Albanian mobile forces. This was the worst military defeat that Skanderbeg had suffered and would ever suffer during his career.

In 1457, an Ottoman army numbering approximately 70,000 men invaded Albania and set out to destroy Albanian resistance once and for all. The army was led by Isa beg Evrenoz, the only commander to have defeated Scanderbeg in battle and Hamza Kastrioti, Scanderbeg’s own nephew. After wreaking much damage to the countryside, destroying crops, plundering and murdering, the Ottoman army set camp at the Ujebardha field (literally WhiteWater), halfway between Lezha and Kruja. There, in September, after having evaded the enemy for months, Skanderbeg attacked and utterly destroyed the Ottomans. His own forces did not exceed fifteen thousand men.

In 1461 Skanderbeg launched a successful campaign against the Angevin noblemen and their allies who sought to destabilize King Ferdinand of Naples. After securing the Neapolitan kingdom, a crucial ally in Skanderbeg’s struggle, he returned home. In 1464 Skanderbeg fought and defeated Ballaban Badera, an Albanian renegade. However, this battle became famous for another reason. Ballaban Pasha did not succeed in defeating Scanderbeg, but was successful in capturing a large number of Albanian army commanders, some of the bravest, including Moisi Arianit Golemi, Scanderbeg’s best cavalry commander; Vladan Giurica, his chief army economist; Muzaka of Angelina, a nephew, and 18 more noblemen and army captains. These men, after they were captured, were dispatched immediately to Istanbul and skinned alive for fifteen days. Scanderbeg’s pleas to have these men back, by either ransoming them or setting free all Ottoman prisoners in Albania, were to no avail.

In 1466 Sultan Mehmed II led the army himself and laid siege to Kruja, who was defended by a 4,400 men strong garrison led by Prince Tanush Thopia. After several months, Mehmed saw that trying to take Kruja was an exercise in futility left and went home. He, however, left a besieging force of forty thousand men under Ballaban Pasha to keep Kruja under siege until it fell. To support this force he built a castle in central Albania and named it El-Basan (which eventually became the modern city of Elbasan). This second siege was successful any more than the first was and soon enough Scanderbeg annihilated it, including its commander Ballaban Pasha, who fell under victim of the new modern firearms.

A few months later, in 1467 Mehmed, frustrated by his inability to subdue little Albania, came again at the head of the largest army of his time. Kruja was besieged a third time, but in a different way. While a contingent kept the city and its forces pinned down, Ottoman armies came pouring from Bosnia, Serbia, Macedonia and Greece with the aim of keeping the whole country surrounded, thereby strangling Scanderbeg’s supply routes and limiting his movements. While fight went on Scanderbeg fell ill with malaria in the Venetian held city of Lezhe, and died on January 17, 1468, just as the army under the leadership of Leke Dukagjini defeated a Ottoman force in Shkodra.

The Albanian resistance went on after the death of Scanderbeg for an additional ten years led by Leke Dukagjini. In 1478 the fourth siege of Kruja proved successful for the Ottomans, though through no strength of arms. Bent down by hunger and lack of supplies after a year long siege, the defenders surrendered to Mehmed, who had promised them to leave unharmed as long as they handed over the castle. As the Albanians were walking away with their families, the Ottomans preyed on them killing all the men and enslaving the women and children. A year later the Ottomans captured Shkodra, the last free Albanian castle, albeit under Venetian control, but the Albanian resistance continued sometimes organized and sometimes sporadically until 1500.

LEGACY

After his death from natural causes in 1468 in Lezhë, his soldiers resisted the Turks for the next 12 years. In 1480 Albania was finally conquered by the Ottoman Empire. When the Turks found the grave of Skanderbeg in Saint Nicholas church of Lezhe, they opened it and held his bones like talismans for luck. The same year, they invaded Italy and conquered the city of Otranto.

Skanderbeg's posthumous fame was not confined to his own country. Voltaire thought the Byzantine Empire would have survived had it possessed a leader of his quality. A number of poets and composers have also drawn inspiration from his military career. The French sixteenth-century poet Ronsard wrote a poem about him, as did the nineteenth-century American poet Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. Antonio Vivaldi composed an opera entitled Scanderbeg.

Skanderbeg today is the National Hero of Albania. Many museums and monuments are raised in his honor around Albania, among them the Skanderbeg Museum next to the castle in Krujë.

Skanderbeg is founder of Castriota Scanderbeg family which is today part of Italian nobility.

This is more appropriate place for this topic.

Of course George Kastrioti is an important figure but his biography above fails to mention that he and Hunyadi were routed by the sultan at the second Battle of Kosovo (1448) wich effectivelly imposed Ottoman dominance over the Balkans. Albanian submission was only a matter of time after that and when it happened Albanians converted to Islam en-masse.

The beginning is medieval, the end however is renaissance. I had to make a choice!

Yes, I moved it from Greek/Roman forum since it's not in the timeframe of that era.

Scanderbeg was not at the Second battle of Kosovo. he remained neutral at that point.

This is BS from "Vorio Hpeiros" propaganda. I wont go into in detail, but they claim that due to him, in a few mentions, stating that he was an Epirotians he fought for the Greeks and not the Albanians and the reason he remains Albanias hero today was because the land he protected is now occupied by us. This is BS as he, in many letters, made mentions of his Albanianess and at the time origins in the west were really only based on where the people were living. There was a very high population of Albanians in that area and so by the west they were called "epirotians". There was no historical significance to it and Scanderbeg used it to his popitical liking. Similarly, the slavic nations that lived up north were considered Illyrian due to the fact that they made up what was once the Illyrian province of the Roman Empire.

His ethnicity is "officially" half serb and Albanian but the serb part is also questionable as Viosvodina(his mother) came from an heavily Albanian populated area and the slavs and albanians there intermixed. So she was also likely part albanian. Recent evidence from Scanderbeg living ancestors(whom reside in Italy today as part of  the "Castriota Scanderbeg" family) have found the link of Scanderbeg to Albanians and will be providing the evidence of it to the tirana museum. Here is another source of Scanderbeg mentioning his "albanianess" in a letter that has now been translated to english.

http://members.aol.com/rhvara/con5.htm - http://members.aol.com/rhvara/con5.htm

and from a heraldic source http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/albania.htm - http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/albania.htm

In the end.

 -United Albanian clans & Princes
- Formed the state of Arber/Albania
- Married an Albanian lady
- Fought for the independence of Albanian lands and protected them for a quarter century
- Died as an Albanian because his heart and actions spoke Albanian. Gave national character to the Albanian resistence against Ottomans.
- It is recorded to fight even agaisnt Greek and Serb landlords

He was Albanian

Instead of using such language and claiming false things, I suggest that you read further to find out what Voria Ipiros means to us Epirotes and Greeks in general. Kastrioti's origin has little to do with the history of the people of Epirus, since he mainly fought in territories inhabited by Albanian populations. The northern frontier that separated Epirus from ancient Illyria was river Devolis.

After all, Kastrioti was a defender of Christian legacy and culture in the western Balkans, I don't really think he viewed himself as Albanian. We all know that Albanian nationalism rose in the beginning of the 20th century. Muslim Albanians, both Ghegs and Tosks, were fierce enemies of Christianity in general in the territories they controlled or lived in and I don't think they really appreciated Skenderbey before the founding of the modern Albanian state.

By the way, you know that in Himarra the Albanian authorities are absent? May I remind you the mutinies of the Himarriotes during every electoral period in Albania? Just in case you still think it's BS...

Photo taken from the liberation of Northern Epirus, during the Balkan Wars 1912-1913.

The defence of Christianity of George kastrioti came second after the defense of his homeland. Even it is recorded that although he adopted the double headed eagle from the byzatines he did so because this was of symbolic importance of Albanians themselves. The double heads signified the unification of the Gegs and Tosks and the eagle well (in albanian the eagle = Shqiponja), (albanian = Shqiptar) so its pretty clear why the eagle was a good choice too. It is known that many muslims also fought in his army, muslims who resent the Sultan as well as Albanian converts who had accept islam ...he never discriminated against them as long as they fought against the Ottomans... he spared his own flesh and blood Hamza pasha after catching him alive and many others who had defected to the Ottomans after they were captured.

Nice selective reading. However you completely failed to look up one is letters to the prince of Tarraco where he specifically called himself an Albanian. This is also not the only one. There are many others that he has acknowledged this also. They are in the hands of the Kastrioti family now in Italy. As soon as his new book is released be sure to check some of them for some closure.

Because, oh so knowledgable, Greek claims on Scaderbeg did not really being until this "Northern Epirus" issue came up.

Albanians have always appreciated Scanderbeg. You see, we have have a certain history with religion. We tend to go with the flow. Meaning switch religion as the advantages of it go up and down. When ottomans came we switched to Islam so we could avoid heavy taxation and rule ourselves. Makes perfect sense to me.

Yes the picture of a few Greeks during the Balkan wars really does it.

Yes Himara does have absent Albanian control. But thats only because Albania is still pretty damn poor and thats a relatively hard to reach area from central Albania and greeks have easy influence on the area through Corfu.

 Anyway, Albanians were enemies of christianity huh? How so? Albanian revolts against ottoman control went on very well into the 17th century. Albanian generals went on to fight with the Pope or against the Ottomans by joining with the northern German armies.

Scanderbeg's rebellion wasnt the only one. Albanian rebellions prevented Mehmed II from geting his army ready to invade Italy and mountain Albanian tribes refused to give any support to the Turks by not allowing them to build roads to their areas and by refusal to give soldiers and pay taxes.

So you see. We don't "all know." You just don't know anything. Now enough of this. This is a Scanderbeg discussion. Not a "Northern Epirus" one.

Yes you are correct I am an athiest. However I am speaking for the Albanian population in general. Which is mainly made up of agnostics(which probably make up a heavy % of what people consider a 70% majority), Catholics and Orthodox. My mother is the case where she does not care what church she attends, just as long as she can get to a church.

You are mistaking the national conscious of Albania with that of Greece. Our national concious does not go by religion. They are two different words to us. As a famous Albanian poet said "look not to the church or mosque for pietism, the religion of Albania is Albanianism.". We do not associate our national conciousness with religion. Its how three different religions can get along in Albania. Greece national conciousness is defined by its religion. And its how people in the Greek press, likes of Nick Gage, can claim over 200,000 something(dunno its different with every damn estimate) "Greek" minority in "Northern Epirus". Simply because it believes that everyone who is an orthodox there is a Greek since Albanian orthodox do not have their separate church(like Serbia or FYROM). We rely on Greek archbishops.

 We luckly have had a great one since 93(Anastasios) who had kicked out and went against many of these Greek nationalists who have made these claims on Southern Albania. Unfortunately as great as he is he wont last for all that much longer as he is already rather old. This is why I will push forward for Orthodox followers in Albania should break-off and create their own church.

Okay....And Greece was created just over 60 years before us..... That means what?

With any hope, you will never see Albania having anything to do with such meanings, we don't need religion to dictate our political and moral world.

Molossos, unless you have anything constructive to say stop posting as this is becoming very tiring. This is a topic about Scanderbeg. You have questions or want to say something about him go ahead. If not then there are other topics you can go and attack us as much as youd like, Im sure Phallanx will be with you on the whole thing.

Phallanx. Thats weak.
HE CALLED HIMSELF Albanian. Do you think people had who originated from who then? For godssakes the Illyrian language was thought to be slavic then. Guess why? Because they were living in the area that was once the province Illyricum.

It doesnt really. >>

 However Ill listen to the words of his two decendants who have stated that they have found his ties to his Albanian origin and will present it to the Tirana museum. They have written this is in a preface of a new Italian book on Scanderbeg. This one: http://www.arbitalia.it/stampa/pubblicazioni/2003/scanderbeg_un.eroe.moderno.htm - http://www.arbitalia.it/stampa/pubblicazioni/2003/scanderbeg _un.eroe.moderno.htm >>

And he stated he was Albanian, what else he mentioned about being Epiriot has no meaning as it involves the old past. Which he more then very likley had very little linguistical and ethnological knowledge in.

Turk-Albanians. Exactly. Ali was an Albanian who came up in ranks in the Ottoman Empire. Like quite a few others. And? Out fighting against them was well over by then. While he did fight help fight against you guys in the Independence he is more known for restoring Egypt after it was left in pieces from Napoleon.

Actually while I have heard about him as I dont recall him being of any relevance to Albanian history.

Once again. Phallanx, you and your buddy there have managed to desacrate a topic and made it into a nationality fest. This has nothing to do with "Turko-Albanians", Greek Independance, "North Epirus" or Epiriots. It has to do witha man who stated he was Albanian and his people were the Albanians, fought for Albania, his army was made up almost entirely of Albanian soldiers with Venetians here and there and some Slavs(who in one occasion betrayed us and caused some of our worst casualties). That man was Gjergj Kastrioti, the Albanian national hero. Ofcourse this place seems to be your personal playground so you have every right to disrupt it. Why do you and a few other Turks here have a habit of doing that?

Anyway on topic, here is a heavily romanticized account of Scanderbeg's betrayal of the Turks at the Battle of Nish by  João S. Clá Dias, in The Mother of Good Counsel of Genazzano. Keep in mind this was written by a very religious individual.  

To this day, the Albanians I respect the most are the catholic Albanians. All around them their friend, families etc were converting but they were the ones who defied the rest and maintained their identity. Not just that but unlike the Arbresh who fld their country to maintain their religion, these ones stayed and fought back wherever they could and their the ones who have created some of the best romantic stories in Albanian folk-tales. I see these guys are the ones who can trully admire Scanderbeg. Its not as much a matter of religion as a matter of defiance. Although I also see the side of the converts. Religion came second to them to the knowledge of having your family and yourself safe from persecution.

" The Moslem army was comprised of Greek and Slavic soldiers and as many other peoples as the sultan could enslave, all under forced regimentation. Many were Catholics who but awaited the right moment to free themselves from the Ottoman claws. These latter found themselves disheartened with fear in the painful exigency of having to fight against their brothers in the Faith.

    Scanderbeg hated the infidels’ yoke more than anyone else. In the proposed invasion of Hungary, he saw the providential moment to free himself and all those who wished to follow him. Thus, with some three hundred Catholic Albanians who were to be thrown into the fight against the troops of Hunyadi, he set about making a plan that would free them all.

    Eighty thousand soldiers under the command of Schahim Pasha advanced against the Magyars. Schahim Pasha was a bully who boasted with the arrogance and haughtiness proper to infidels: “My sword is a cloud that pours blood instead of water.” Hunyadi’s Catholic troops numbered just twenty thousand.

    On a cold November night, near Nish, the Hungarian vanguard caught sight of the heterogeneous Turkish horde. The warriors of the Cross silently eyed their enemy until the moment Constable Hunyadi joined them and gave the order to attack. Great shouts of enthusiasm resounded on the battlefield as the crusader’s cavalry hurtled forward in a furious charge. Clouds of arrows filled the sky. Taking advantage of the confusion of the first clash, Scanderbeg and his followers passed over to the side of the followers of the Cross of Christ.

    The first outcries of the Turks wounded by the Hungarians were joined by furious curses of hatred when they saw, to their amazement, that their own bey generalissimo was fighting side by side with Hunyadi.

    A tremendous confusion ensued. The Hungarians, fighting with increased strength, won the battle. Thirty thousand Moslems lay dead on the field and four thousand were taken prisoner.

    Among the captives was Amurath’s secretary of state with his retinue. When he was discovered among the prisoners, Scanderbeg forced him to write and sign a firman [a royal order or mandate]. This document ordered, in the sultan’s name, the Turkish government of Albania to hand over the government to the person presenting the document. With the document in hand, Scanderbeg had the secretary and his attendants put to the sword, thus rewarding them with the same fate that had befallen his brothers and servants some twenty years before.

    Invoking the protection of the Blessed Virgin, Scanderbeg and his Albanians rode seven days and nights to reach Kroia. The seventh night was already extending its mantle of stars over the sky when they entered the city.

    Once in the city, Scanderbeg secretly met with the most important Albanian residents, who promised to help him. As dawn broke, he entered the castle of the Turkish governor. Upon reading the document signed by the sultan’s secretary, the governor surrendered the stronghold without suspecting anything amiss. The following evening, Scander-beg and his Albanians entered the fortress and killed all the Mohammedans.

    Scanderbeg thus regained control of the territories that were his legitimate inheritance. He was ready to avenge the anti-Catholic despotism of the Islamics: their deceits, assassinations, abduction of Albanian women to serve in Turkish harems, and of Catholic youth to pervert and force into service as janizaries, unbearable taxes, and forcible impression of troops for the sultan’s armies.

    On November 13, 1443, after two decades of silence, church bells rang out. Catholic Albania, freed from the infidel’s yoke through the protection of Our Lady of Scutari, today known as the Mother of Good Counsel, rejoiced."

The name Kastriot is NOT of Greek origins. It comes from an area of northern Albania called Kastrati. -IOT is added to the name to signify a person from that area. Similar surname would be HimarIOT.

All about Kastrati here; http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/durham/albania/albania-III.html - http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/durham/albania/albani a-III.html

Not to mention info on Kastoria in Macedonia, where it was originally believed the Kastriot came from was ruled by Albanians till it fell to the Turks. http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/en/C2.5.html - http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/en/C2.5. html

Armed forces of javascriptpenHotword('EA.2.2c.html');">Bulgarians and from the neighbouring state of Epirus and the empire of Nicaea were active in Kastoria and its vicinity during the 13th century. In the next century the city was occupied first by the javascriptpenHotword('EA.2.4.3a.html');">Serbs , then by the Albanians and finally, in 1386, by the Turks.

Once again Phallanx, in that letter he calls himself an Albanian when he refers to his people being offended by the the Prince of Taranto. And the "Dictionnarium latino-epiroticum,"(The first Albanian-Latin dictionary) only further shows the people who were there at the time. Not only that but Joseph Scaliger in 16th century, a Renaissance scholar who showed interest in Albania and Albanians said the language was spoken "In the mountains of Epirus".Yes there are tons of theories. But none of them match with the actual relation that Scanderbeg has with the Northern region of Albania, Kastri. In Mirdita or Kastrati nearby it.

 I decided to read a special book regaridng Scanderbeg, his origin etc. The special piece about the Kastrioti origin is written by Kristo Frashëri.

"The theories of an eventual slavic or greek origin of the Kastrioti clan has been rejected by science and it widely accepted, even in International historiography that Scanderbeg was ethnically albanian."

This is what we must conclude about the origin of the Kastrioti. There is although a theory that Voisava was serbian, thus making him half serb. But we must realise she might of been very well partially albanian since she was from the region of Tetova were there were significiant numbers of albanians!


"Marin Barleti traces the Kastrioti origin in Aemethia (modern Mati). In the contrary, in a chronicle from Ragusa (modern Dubrovnik), in the basis of old documents by P.Lukari (1605) and a bosniac collection published by E.Fermenxhim, tells us that the Kastrioti origin is from Hasi, were according to them there was a village named Kastrat (Castrati). "

But today there is no such village in Hasi, neither Kastriot nor Kastrat. Such villages do exist but not in Hasi, but other areas such as Dibra or the Great Highlands. Then there are other sources, documents which tells us that the Kastrioti had also another name, Masrek, Masrechius, Masrechij etc (clearly albanian anthroponym). There is even a village in Hasi named Mazrek which is also mentioned in the defters of 1571 in the form of Mazarak.

Fan Noli(an old Albanian Orthodox Archbishop of Albania) meant that the village must of been named Kastri, whereas they got the form "Kastrioti", like kaninjot from Kanina, himariot from Himara etc. He said that the village must of had been located either in the Great Highlands (Malësia e Madhe), Mirdita, Mati or Hasi. The historian Gegaj (1937) traced the village Kastri (between Vigu, Kashnjeti, Mënella and Dibra).
But this thesis was destroyed when pro.Buda found a mëhallë in Luma (Hasi) named Kastrat (like the chronicle of Ragusa said). In 1959 the historians of "The History of Albania" supported this theory.

According to another theory, the Kastrioti were originally named Mazareku, whereas they changed their name when they were in Mirdita (where there is a village named Kastri)!"

I believe George Kastrioti was from Hasi, that his original name was Mazrreku and that they somehow changed it to Kastrioti.

LOL!!! Phallanx your killing me ..... Kruje is in Gheg Albania. In Gegeria. It doesnt even fit in the whole "Tosks are Albanized Greeks" crap I hear from some Hellenes(hey it's starting to stick) OR North Epirus. Kruja could not have possibly had a large Hellenic population.

Disraeli's "The Rise of Iskander", otherwise you would have changed your inaccurate sources.

Let's see, what Disraeli really wrote:

Now this is another first.
I really would like to see some sources on this. I've never and do mean never seen anyone present him as Catholic.
I guess out of pure coincidence, that he adopted the Byzantine double headed eagle instead of some Catholic symbol.

I honestly don't see why who his allies were really matters.  We are talking about his origin, not who he was friends and allies with. Besides that, I don't recall saying that every member of Byzantium was Hellinic in origin. Hellinic may have been the predominant language and culture but the Byzantine empire was multi-ethnic. Which is why we see Serb and Armenian emperors.

Wasn't the South, Orthodox while North was Catholic after the Christian church schism?
So that would make the Muzakas and the Shpatas (you forgot about them) Orthodox. And wasn't it, Karlos Topia that asked the Ottomans to include Albania in the Islamic empire?
I don't think he was much of an ally.

I knew it. Let me guess your name was...... Hellinaras.Right? Anyway Im not Dij, but I comeplete agree with him. Anyway, I do not post there anymore.

Okay you found a source that called him greek. Sure, I have seen sources saying he fought for the cause of Serbia also......

Again Phallanx, if Scanderbeg went to Kruja after he liberated himself, he would could not have yelled that because Kruja was not populated by Greeks. It was an entirely Albanian town. Furthermore the town had NOTHING to do with Epirus. So screaming Epirus and Greeks in an Albanian town in Northern Albania and suddenly Im the one that incorrect?

Well you have to stand for something. As stated by another member, the adoption could have a million reasons as to why. On top of that it couldbe for recognition. Also, Albanians were at once part of the Byzantine Empire.  

His allies are of importance when looking at who he ran off to. He ran off to Albanians after defecting and worked to unite Albanians. It gives a big clue as to his origins.

Thanks for pointing that out, when I did so before. Yes the north was catholic and the south was orthodox. It gives more clues toward him being from Catholic background since he switched to Catholicism. 

Him uniting all Albanian princes. Him running to Albania to declare the freedom from the Turks and his last name  relation to an Albanian place name and tie this to him going back to Catholicism with Geg Albanians being mainly Catholic. On top of that he declared his "Albanese"ness in a letter you yourself used. All of those give me clues as to his origins.....

Ugh, how irritating. I originally posted for fun now Im into an annoying arguement.

Anyway phallanx, so I guess the whole world has been hypnotized except a few Serb and Greek nationalists, by Albanians. The world recognises it so, until you or Highduke can make some revolutionary changes, it remains so.

• patriot: one who loves and defends his or her country
• devotion to the interests or culture of a particular nation including promoting the interests of one country over those of others; "nationalist aspirations"; "minor nationalistic differences"
• an advocate of national independence of or a strong national government

http://www.google.com.gr/url?sa=X&start=2&oi=define&q=http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn2.1?s=nationalist - So please allow me to be damn proud of being one.



-------------
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.

Why so selective Phallanx? Why did you not also put his first words;

  http://members.aol.com/rhvara/con5.htm - "Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. "

THIS WAS IN RESPONSE TO THE PRINCE OF TARANTO'S COMMENT;

 You will find other men who all support your proud appearance (?) and no one will avoid your face. Our Italian soldiers will challenge you very well and have no fear of the Albanese. We already know your generation and respect the Albanese like sheep, and it is an embarrassment to have such cowardly people for enemies; (neÕ?) would you have embarked on such a business if you had stayed to dwell in your house.

 Are you going to deny this now? Was there any mention of Greeks made? The only other thing mentioned was Christianity in the Prince's letter.  No mention of Byzantines/Hellenes/Greek's nor Epirotians. Just Albanians. So if Scanderbeg was offended by anything, it was the fact that the Albanese were belittled.

Also if you look at most Italin sources(Including his plaque in Rome), you will see it says Prince of Epirus. The comment he made only gives further proof to me of who was living there are the given moment. Once again, do you think Scanderbeg was a linguisist or ethnologist? Add this to the first Albanian- Latin disctionary which once again was called "Dictionnarium latino-epiroticum" and Joseph Scalinger's comment about Albanian being spoken "In the mountains of Epirus".

Okay, I have gotten my view across. I don't expect to change any views on the matter, as this is never the object of these discussions.. I guess we can return to the original topic.

The letter to Skanderbeg:

Giovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, to Georgio albanese, greeting.

(Conveniva a te?), that the luck you had shown in the war with the enemies of the Christian religion, which sometimes had forced combat, then leaving that field, you came to Italy to drive your armies against Christians? What cause do you hold against me? What have I done against you? What controversies do they make between us?

You have spoiled my territories and are crudely giving vent against my subjects, and first you have (mosso?) the war that (proposta?). You boast that you are a great warrior for the Christian religion and (pur?) yet you persecute this (geate?) which for every reason is called Christianity. You have turned your iron against the French of the Kingdom of Sicily. Perhaps you have thought to take the army against the effeminate Turks that you are accustomed to wounding in the back.

You will find other men who all support your proud appearance (?) and no one will avoid your face. Our Italian soldiers will challenge you very well and have no fear of the Albanese. We already know your generation and respect the Albanese like sheep, and it is an embarrassment to have such cowardly people for enemies; (neÕ?) would you have embarked on such a business if you had stayed to dwell in your house.

You have avoided the onslaught of the Turks, and not having the power to defend your own house, have thought to invade other peopleÕs. You are deceitful. Instead of a new house you are looking for your grave.

Goodbye......Ó

Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto:

Giorgio, gentleman of Albania, to Giovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, greeting.

Having made a truce with the enemy of my religion I have not wanted that my friend remain (fraudato) of my aid. (Spesse?) times, Alfonso, his father, invited my help while I waged war against the Turks. Therefore I would be very ungrateful if I had not resisted (lÕistesso?) service to his son. I remember what your king did because now (non deve vedere succedergli?) this who is his son? You adored his father, and why now do you try to throw out his son? Where did this power come from? Who has the power to set up the King of Sicily, you or the Roman Pontiff?

I came to aid Ferrante, son of the king and seat of the Apostolica. I came opposing your unfaithfulness and innumerable great betrayals in this kingdom. (NeÕ?) will you ever be unpunished for your perjury. This is the reason for my war against you. I merit this no less than I merited making war against the Turks, nor are you less Turk than them. (ImperoccheÕ vi sono alcuni?) that guide you in a straight line not to be of some sect. You my opponents the French and the names of those people, and those for the religion wage grand war.

I do not want to dispute ancient matters with you, matters that perhaps were much less than what was told about them. Certainly in our times the Aragonese armadas have often coursed the Aegean Sea, have plundered the Turkish coasts, have (riportata?) the prey of the enemies; and even today the Aragonese armies defend Troja from the jaws of the enemy. Why do I remember the old things and leave the new parts? If they change the family costumes and the plowmen of the kingdom, and the kings of the plowmen return? (NeÕ troverai nobilitaÕ piuÕ antica della virtuÕ.)

Nor can I deny that you are not with the obnoxious French nation, (imperoccheÕ) you being mainly in aid of King Alfonso, you hunted the French of this kingdom. I do not know now what new virtue shines in this. Perhaps it is some new star that you have now seen among the French?

Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.

I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?

In the past the Albanese have (fatto?) experience if the Pugilese were armed; (neÕ) I would again find some who would have been able to aspired to my nature. I have well noted from the back how many of your soldiers are well armed but have never been able to see their helmets or (tanpoco?) the face except those that have become prisoners. (NeÕ?) I seek your house (Bastandomi?) my own. Besides, it is well known that you often would have shot your neighbors for their possessions, as now you would force out the king of your house and your kingdom.

(Che se?) If I fall in the difficult task I have embarked on I will be buried as (mi vai?) wishing in your letter, will bring back my soul as a reward from the Chancellor of the universe, of God. Not only will I have perfected my intention, but also I will have planned and attempted some distinguished deed.

Good bye....Ó

I left out the Pyrrhus part because you have done so already. As I stated, I put in his first words.

You did not need to post the entire letter. I had a link of it within the post I put in in blue.   Nevertheless, in that sentence, he may try to connect himself with anything but he states that he was offended by the comment made to his people by the Prince. Once again though, this only aids my belief as to the ethnicity of the people living in Epirus were at the time.

Obviously this arguement will follow the usual route. Now we are probably supposed to switch to an arguement on who populated much of Epirus during that era. I would rather just not jump to that. You know who I believe populated it and I know who you believe populated it.

Phallanx.

Have I EVER, EVER claimed Alex, Kolokotronis, or Bouboulina or even Homer? Can you find one single comment I hav ever made that stated them as Albanians? You can search through 3 million forums and will NEVER find those words connected with one another in my sentences. I have more dignity then that. You want to site Hoxha now? The man was a joke, point and simple and we were a small people who fell into his arms. And how is he our beloved? I'm pretty sure he was never the beloved of my family when he had my grandfather emprisoned and beaten for having a political mind. Im sure he was not "beloved" to there rest of my countrymen when they gathered around Scanderbeg Square and torn down his statue in such mass excitement and happiness. We were never the ones to print out money with Thessolonike on it, or think of creating statues of Alexander or Pyrrhus, people who I have stated were clearly hellenistic figures. So next time, try not making assumptions about a community by basing them on web pages.

Finally, what was with capitolizing Kastriotis. Was it because you believed that somehow capitolizing, bolding or enlarging a certain sentence, name etc would make me angry?

So now Im a deluted propagandist for quoting somebody else? Your stating that because in antiquity the population was one thing it has to be so thereafter. I do not deny that the history of Epirus was tied to the Hellenes. But I also believe that it is very likely that at some point it began to be mixed with Albanians.

Scanderbeg's first Battle against Ali Pasha, The account of the battle is from;

Catholic World VOL. XXIII., No. 134. -MAY, 1876

Ali Pasha with around 45,000.                                                                                    Skanderbeg with about 15,000.

 During the war of Albanian Independence, the Turks, except toward the end, made the fatal blunder of sending immense armies, consisting in some cases of more then 200,000 men, into a country they could only be maintained for a single and brief campaign,and to fight a general who was sure, from his experience and bravery, skill, and thousand rough knowledge of every torrent mountain pass, road, valley, to turn defeat into an overwhelming disaster

It was thus that the army of Ali Pasha was drawn by a wily maneuver into a narrow district only ninety miles from Croia and opening into the very heart of Albania. The upper end was very contracted, and here Scanderbeg drew up his main body of troops, to the number of ten thousand, which were posted in three divisions en echelon. As soon as the enemy was well engaged in the valley three thousand horsemen, who had been watching their slow advance, came down at it's lower end, which had been left quite unguarded, while fifteen hundred irregular infantry lay in ambush on either side amidst the woody acclivities. As sson as the Turks came up to the Albanians they halted, tried to deploy, but could not, repeatedly charged and swept up in heavy columns against the small but solid masses who evenly filled the gap and made it impossible to flank them. The Turks after a while began to waver and fall into great disorder. Ali Pasha blundered.

The Albanians now took the offensive. The signal-clarions sounded and,. while the Turks were attacked in front, the cavalry from the lower end of the valley charged them in the rear and the infantry that lay in ambush came rushing down on both sides with terrific cries and sword in had to complete their discomfiture. It was now a slaughter; and although the battle lasted only four hours altogether, over twenty thousand infedels were killed or wounded. Few prisoners-no more then two thousand-were taken. The rest of the enemy, under cover of darkness and from sheer exhaustion on the part of the victors, escaped through the now open passage at the lower end of the valley.

isnt skander beg a tURK WHO GOT ANGRY  ON the ottoman state and made a revolt . Around him all kind of ethnic gatherd,   among the albans, serbs greeks and manily turks who where dissatisfied   of teh OTTOMAN STATE ,  HE WAS A TURK , A REBELL AGAINST HIS OWN STATE,

aaaaaaaa, hahahah

1.  think your talking about Timur... George Kastrioti was certainly not a Turk...
   
   

oh PLEASE,, HE WAS A turk all right

AAAAAAA, hahahahahah

where do you came up with this kind of sh*t

Later that century, the Despotate of Epirus became overrun by Albo rulers who created Princelings. Albo rulers like Thopia took the arta region etc.etc.

Here is an interesting map showing it.

http://historymedren.about.com/library/atlas/natmapeurse1401.htm - http://historymedren.about.com/library/atlas/natmapeurse1401 .htm

The Epirus area is cut with a Latin Power inbetween because that was the area after the wife of the Serb ruler Prebulovich went out of power and Italin ruler by the name of Buondelmonti, an Italian.
 

You first few posts in this forum, are nothing but chlidish posts and insults of other members. This is an official warning, take it as an opportunity to change your ways. That is of course if you want to stay in this forum.

PS

While you're pondering on that, change your signature as well!

Who is ruling Cyprus at this time?

Why is Armenia so far down from current Armenia?

Any new information on Trebizond?

I dunno, I think there is an error in that, but then again. Wasnt the area of Cilicia under Armenian control for much of it's history?

This is a map during an era of the region that is called Principalities of Albania in the 15th century.

http://www.euratlas.com/big/1400big.jpg - http://www.euratlas.com/big/1400big.jpg

This is during the 14th century;

http://www.euratlas.com/big/1300big.jpg - http://www.euratlas.com/big/1300big.jpg

The Despotate of Epirus had crapped out by then, Thopia had taken control of Ioannina and went to war with a Zetan/Albanian family called Balsha(Balsic) in Shkodra and called the Sultan Murad for assistance. The families made peace and intermarried with one another. 

Much of this stuff is mentioned in this old Bio of Scanderbeg

http://shopper2.123city.net/SponsorAds/586-855-1476/1263_scanderbegcatholic-world1876.pdf - http://shopper2.123city.net/SponsorAds/586-855-1476/1263_sca nderbegcatholic-world1876.pdf http://shopper2.123city.net/SponsorAds/586-855-1476/1263_sca nderbegcatholic-world1876.pdf -

The map I presented before was off on many things so yea, it was rather errous, even the Principalities were never united into one land kingdom or anything.

You can see there Cyprus was it's own Kingdom.

Phallanx, I believe those were the rulers of Ioannina, not the Despotate.

http://ioannina.uoi.gr/_en/history/byzantine_period.html - http://ioannina.uoi.gr/_en/history/byzantine_period.html

House of Lusignan, Crusader kingdom

many Armenians have migrated downwards and durign the Crusades have established their own state in Cilicia called little Armenia. it was at first vassal of the byzantines but heavyily influenced by the other Crusader states.

don't know what you mean...

Her name was Vojislava.It's 100%  serbian(south slavic) name.As for her ancestors-certainly she had some non-serb ancestry-after all, all south slavs are mostly of pre-slavic ''blood''-it's the culture that counts.

 Stanisha???It's a very common name in serbia.Last name Stanishic is also very common.It's clearly of slavic origin-derived from stanovati-to inhabit,to live in. It could be also derived from other slavic words.However, it's unquestionably slavic-a few similar sounding names:Malisha, Radisha, Dragisha,Ljubisha...And Branilo is south-slavic name ,too.It is derived from braniti-to defend.So, we can  say Skenderbeg's mother was almost certainly serbian.As I said on previous threads:this doesn't make him  Serbian.

hi to all

sorry for my english. my family moved in italy 500 years ago from albania after the ottoman conquered definitively kruja ( the center of scanderbeg state) , i born in italy but i feel like an albanian. i dont think that anyone of you here will find where mothers of scanderbeg was from, and its very ridiculous that you are arguing about this things. the problem with us albanian is that we have a few written material of our history, and the greeks or any other country has write of albania whatever they wanted and need. if an albanian is orthodox doesnt it make greece. so all the slavs people are orthodox but not greek,it wasn't greece that invented orthodox or make albanians orthodox. i know and what i know i am very sure albanians come from illiricum and we are older equally like greece in balcan its obvious that we have many things in common. french language , spanish italian are in the same group of languages but that doesnt make them italian. our language is unique like greece in europe its normal that in the frontier we may have word in common like people in nord with slav or midlle albania with turks,the slavs have come later in balcan and they say kosovo is theirs , dardans is writen in the tower of piza that were illirian,many of the imperators of rome were illirian and the history of rome admits this, so we have. epirus was a region that included many illirian tribu, they were not achakey and aobut pirro i want to say something he was greew up in glaukias court  an illir king that fight against macedonian and i have to say too that macedonian people ( iam speaking for the ancient of macedonians were not greek,) demosteni greek potician wanted that greece polis fight against him , all greek cities were frightened about him. he called macedonian like barbars.

bye i just wrote to much

and pallanx be serious

The Liberty do not bring i,but find to you(Skanderbeg)

Bujar Kocani

1.   HE WAS A turk all right