Can Türkiye Enter to northern ıraq??
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Topic: Can Türkiye Enter to northern ıraq??
Posted By: EGETÜRK
Subject: Can Türkiye Enter to northern ıraq??
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 16:42
|
that's the question
------------- The lands of the of the West may be armored with walls of steel, But I have borders guarded by the mighty chest of a believer... |
Replies:
Posted By: Dan Carkner
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 18:35
| Didn't they already? |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 20:34
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If terrorists from Northern Iraq continue to attack Turkey, then it would be fully within Turkey's right to self-defense to retaliate. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 09:00
No. The US is adamantly against it. ------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 11:28
And what would be next?
The Kurds are a nation and they are fully aware of that. Violence against them will bring further violence from them.
Turkey should better realize that she can't be oppressing a nation forever. If they want to postpone what seems inevitable, they should grant right to the Kurds so that they won't feel oppressed.
Tukrey entering Iraq will bring only fake military successes like 'we destroyed that camp, we took that mountain, and then pulled back to Turkey'. The Kurds will come back with even more ruthless guerilla fighting. Turkey will have destroyed her relationships with USA. Turkey will probably go to hell thenafter.
I'm not kidding. In Greece the civil war in Iraq and the turkish aggression towards the kurds is seen as the best scenario. ------------- 
Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 11:45
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It would be folly for Turkey to do such a thing. I think the Kurdistan authorities should prepare a "Maginot Line" for such an eventuality, modelled on Lebanese Hezbollah.
What's more is that I have not understood the cordial and friendly relations between the Tehran regime and the Kurdistan government, there must be a sub plot to it.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 12:29
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Its becomming a question of when not if anymore. Iran is gathering intellegence and also will possibly enter, Syria would also like to. It's likely that in the near future due to pressure at home the U.S will be forced to with-draw troops which will leave another power vacuum to the already existing one. Iran like Turkey has established good relations with Barzani, has trade and other relations with him. The motive of this is to know his moves, they know his companies, the way they operate and have made them relient on Turkish goods. When a conflict arises they can shut down his operations and cut the trade and establishments that the North is now relient on.
In order to stop the Shia-Sunni confrontations in Baghdad, the U.S is moving two Kurdish regiments into the city. Now its inconcievable to imagine that the American's are completely "stupid", they obviously know what the reprucutions are going to be. The secterian battles will slowly make way for Arab-Kurd battles due to the new presence.
Turkey has the right to enter the North and clear out one of the world's most bloodiest Terrorists groups Pkk if they are conducted cross-border terrorist attacks which they have been doing.
Iran also has the right to enter as Pkk-Pejak is attacking Iran's soil aswell.
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 12:37
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"In order to stop the Shia-Sunni confrontations in Baghdad, the U.S is moving two Kurdish regiments into the city."
Bulldog, where did you read this? I heard a speech from Barzani, not too long ago, about NOT sending Peshmergas there.
"Turkey has the right to enter the North and clear out one of the world's most bloodiest Terrorists groups Pkk if they are conducted cross-border terrorist attacks which they have been doing."
Kurds have rights to protect themselves against Turkey. Turkey is in my eyes a ultra-nationalistic state and oppressive against Kurds. So they're not exactly angels, Bulldog. ------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 12:43
| Don't call them Peshmerga, they are professional soldiers - Peshmerga makes them sound unofficial. Peshmerga are ideologically motivated guerilla fighters. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 12:52
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Xristar
And what would be next?
The Kurds are a nation and they are fully aware of that. Violence against them will bring further violence from them.
Them? who is this "them" you speak of, do you think that the average Kurd likes being bullied, having to pay extortions, living in fear and used as cannon fodder by terrorists? Diyarbekir used to be a shining example in the region, it had fantastic prospects, compared to cities like GaziAntep, SanliUrfa, Malatya, Elazig etc it was way in-front. But today it's been ruined, GaziAntep has become a financial centre, Malatya is developing fast, SanliUrfa and Antep are even beginning to establish a tourism industry. Terrorism was rejected in many parts of the South-East and compared to the areas where terrorist bases are in the South East they are now worlds apart. The people in the region don't want to carry on living like this due to the selfish terrorists. The average person cares more about his/her family, providing food on the table, educating the kids then Extremist Marxist Ideological issues.
Turkey has made many reforms, the Kurdish generation growing today and the next one's to come will not have any restrictions on their language, culture or identity so your second comment has become "devoid".
Turkiye should have given Kurds their full rights from the beginning and she should be condemned for not doing so and accept it was a mistake. However, they cannot keep living in the past, a time must come to move forward, Kurds must have full cultural rights in addition to their already existing full citizenship rights.
Xristar
Turkey should better realize that she can't be oppressing a nation forever. If they want to postpone what seems inevitable, they should grant right to the Kurds so that they won't feel oppressed.
Tukrey entering Iraq will bring only fake military successes like 'we destroyed that camp, we took that mountain, and then pulled back to Turkey'. Fake millitary sucess? it's clear you have no understanding of the issue. If wanted, they could eliminate the Pkk presence all its combatants, all related groups, propoganda agencies and financial centres. They could do this in a couple of weeks. That's not the problem, if they had done this in the past, either the Soviets, the Syrians or the Greeks would have just created a new terrorist group. There is a history of such events, for example once Asala terrorism was ended Pkk Terrorism began. When a Terror Org is taken out, the enemies surrounding the state would this time create an even more sickly monster.
However, today the Soviets are no more, Syria has changed its agenda, Greece doesn't want to be caught sponsering Terrorism.
Pkk Terrorism is today kept alive to suit U.S and Israeli interests, what they would like is for the Org to change its agenda and focus of Iran and Syria. But with so much on U.S plate this avenue is not looking as good anymore. With the situation on Turkey's borders becomming such that the only credible threat is now focued on North Iraq a situation is arrising where it could be possible and time to eliminate the group and uproot it.
Xristar
The Kurds will come back with even more ruthless guerilla fighting. Turkey will have destroyed her relationships with USA. Turkey will probably go to hell thenafter.
Kurds didn't begin any of these Terrorist Organisations. Pkk is an extremist Marxist Org, originally created in the Bekaa valley by Soviet-Syrian intellegence in addition to a whole host of other frankenstein Terrorist groups created in that valley. Soviets wanted a Communist revolution, they failed and so created DHKP/C and PKK Terror. Syria's interests were the "Hatay" region.
If there is a millitary intervention I don't think there will be any sudden retreat. Plus if you listen to the new voices comming out of Washington, the U.S is starting to change its views on a Turkish intervention, if it pulls out it may actually want one.
Don't be suprised by anything in Iraq, anything could happen and should be expected it could swing anyway.
Cent
"In order to stop the Shia-Sunni confrontations in Baghdad, the U.S is moving two Kurdish regiments into the city."
Bulldog, where did you read this? I heard a speech from Barzani, not too long ago, about NOT sending Peshmergas there.
Do you think America is going to put its new 20,000 troops in alone? two Kurdish regiments are being sent in on the front lines.
Cent
Kurds have rights to protect themselves against Turkey. Turkey is in my eyes a ultra-nationalistic state and oppressive against Kurds. So they're not exactly angels, Bulldog.
And from the Turks perception's, Pkk Terrorist Org is one of the most bloodiest in the world and they are conducting attacks in Turkey from bases in Northern Iraq. The Kurdish regime can tackle this problem or Turkey can both have the right to in the global war against Terror. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 13:00
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"Do you think America is going to put its new 20,000 troops in alone? two Kurdish regiments are being sent in on the front lines."
Has it been acknowledged by the Kurdish authorities? As I said, last I heard, Barzani was against such an action. ------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 14:04
| I read that news too.(from a turkish newspaper) |
Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 21:29
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You probably can guess my answer to the topic of this thread. The question is not whether Turkey can enter, it is should they enter. And the answer depends on who you are and where you come from. So personally, I'm not going to say anything about it because I'm far removed from the area and I'm also biased based on my nationality. From a technocratic perspective this depends on whether Iraq will manage to remain as one nation or will break apart to zones of influence; in the latter case everyone in the area will move in to grab a piece, Sunnis, Shias (Iran?), Turkey, Syria, Jordan(?). It also depends on whether the US (the biggest guarantee that iraq will remain whole) will manage to maintain its military presence in the area. If the US left today, Iraq will be devoured amongst the interested parties practically overnight. ------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 07:13
Technically evet,but with the US above it's bas,hayir.
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 07:33
 The Turkish-Kurdish well accualy Turkish-PKK conflict is a verry delicate issue the US isn't helping accualy there putting more oil on the fire. ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 09:07
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"Don't call them Peshmerga, they are professional soldiers - Peshmerga makes them sound unofficial. Peshmerga are ideologically motivated guerilla fighters."
But they are Peshmergas! ------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 17:06
No, PKK left Marxism-Leninism in the first half of the 90s. ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2007 at 18:05
CNN mentioned that it was one Brigade. This makes sense because the Kurds and friendly Iraqis are orgainized to the U.S. system. The Brigade is now the standard manuver unit of U.S. forces.
The references to two Kurdish "regiments" probably indicates that the Kurdish Brigade has two batalions. In the U.S. system, Batalions are large and carry regimental battle colors / lineages.
So... what the Turkish newspaper and CNN are probably stating is that One Kurdish Brigade consisting of two Batalions is being sent to Baghdad. This would mean about 2,500 soldiers.
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Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 03:03
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I read 3,000 in the SF Chronicle today. General consensus according to the newspaper is tha the Kurds themselves are sceptical because it will seem that they interfere in what has so far remained a Sunni-Shia conflict.
------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 07:20
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I can't believe they would accept such a suicidal position as the one they'll be entering, currently the Kurds have had the least of the trouble why get involved now? it's a game and there being used I hope they wake up, throwing in another minority to confront another ethnic group divided secterianly could infact create an ethnic conflict, Arab-Kurd in Baghdad and quell the Shia-Sunni fighting. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 09:36
------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 10:02
Sure, the Kurds are being "used" in much the same way that they have "used" the United States over the past 17 years. The relationship between the Kurds and the USA has been both mutually beneficial and mutually uhhmmm... useful. U.S. leaders reminded the Kurds of the mutually useful aspect of the raltionship. The Kurds agreed that it would be benefical to them that the relationship with the USA continue.
The number of Kurdish troops (3,000) was probably carefully selected and is the ideal number. It is significant, but not overly so. Also, I have a suspicion that Kurdish leadership is going to arrange that their troops are not given the most hazardous assignments. Perhaps they will be used to protect a historicaly Kurdish district (if one exists) or the Christian district (few Christians are left in Baghdad).
No doubt that the mtually useful relationship between USA and the Kurds is going to continue.
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Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 10:30
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Turkey did entered Northeren Iraq even northeren Iran in 1995.destroyed
many camps,killed,arrested many terrorists.after these campain of
operations the pkk began to slow down.but today they rise again becouse
Barzani supports them and those terrorists may see Turkish
Mountain Commandos in Northern Iraq soon.
------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: Huncuk
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 12:18
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Turk commandoes are already in Iraq. |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 12:20
They must be caution because there are US Rangers and Marines !!!!  ------------- 
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 13:56
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You are a bad bad guy akritas!
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 14:02
 -------------
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Posted By: TheGame
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 16:57
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Turkey will never enter northern Iraq. Civil War in turkey cost 30000 lives, what good would it be to Turkey if they tried to occupy Northern Iraq. Turkey's army isnt like the USA, they will have even more casualties than the US is having against the Sunni's and Shia's. Also, I doubt Iran will ever enter Norther Iraq. Infact, the Kurdish government and Iran seem to have pretty good relations right now. Iran may even help this Kurdish government. Also, I think sending Kurdish units to Baghdad is a very good idea. The Sunni's wont be able to complain that the Shia's control everything anymore, and hopefully, it will bring a Sunni-Shia balance. ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 17:33
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I strongly suggest you gather some better intellegence and knowledge about the Kurdish regime in the North and Iran. If U.S pull out, it wouldn't be suprising if Iran entered before Turkey.
Sending Kurdish units to Baghdad is a VERY good idea? Let's carry this conversation on in a few months... ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: TheGame
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 17:35
Why would Iran go in? Iran will probably accept the new Kurdish region and help prop it up, winning points with its own kurds. Why fight when you can go the easy way and make friends with your "enemy". Iran has perfectly good relations with other Sunni nations, so there will be no Shia-Sunni conflict with a Kurdish State, and like I said, Iran supporting and having good relations with a Kurdish state will not only win it points with the kurds within Iran, but will also drastically cut attacks.
Why is it a bad idea? ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 17:51
They are professional soldiers, they are not like Mehdi army since they are the army of the democratically elected Kurdish authority in Northern Iraq which pays them, not of some local war lord.
You know this how? Do you even know the recent history of the Kurds in Iraq? They had been at war for over 30 years. Furthermore, you have no idea how motivated these men of Barzani are.
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Posted By: Gökhan
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 18:26
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Turkey does not seem to go in iraq in this year. The government does not seem to be sad about Kirkuk's situation.
We sell electricity to north iraq for 5 cents while selling to our businessman for 8 cents and to Syria for 7 cents.
at this political situation; i have no hope for it sadly.
We should wait the elections and see
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 19:38
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The_Game
Why would Iran go in? Iran will probably accept the new Kurdish region and help prop it up, winning points with its own kurds.
Why fight when you can go the easy way and make friends with your "enemy". Iran has perfectly good relations with other Sunni nations, so there will be no Shia-Sunni conflict with a Kurdish State, and like I said, Iran supporting and having good relations with a Kurdish state will not only win it points with the kurds within Iran, but will also drastically cut attacks. It would be lovely if Iran could go around making friends with everyone but its just not that simple. There is Pejak terrorism against Iran, the main seperatist group in Iran is Kurdish, a Kurdish state is definately not in Iran's interests. Kurdish, Persian, Turkish people and society get on very well however, this isn't the problem, its the ruler's that are. And if we are to be realistic, there are financers and investers who want to see Iran and Kurds be in conflict.
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: TheGame
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 20:22
Iran does not have a problem with Kurds, nor a Kurdish States. Iran has a problem with seperatists and a Kurdish state wishing to seperate Kordestan from Iran. And from the looks of it, Iraqi Kurdistan and Iran will probably make a deal. Iran supports them and they support Iran. Iranian Kurds will be happy that Iran and a new Kurdistan have good relations, etc... Iran has shown no signs of aggression towards the Kurdish government in norther Iraq as far as I know. Also, regarding the question about Kurdish soldiers in Baghdad, why is that a bad idea? ------------- |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 08:28
Im telling you but im not advocating them Pkk terrorists are more experienced and better then those peshmerga's.
------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 08:31
------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 11:11
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hey TheGame it is not a civil war that is between pkk and Turkey.its war on terror.those 30000 Turkish people are mostly civillians (doctors,teachers,lawyers). Turkish army has 25 years of experience in mountain warfare and Turkey has better mountain commandos then the USA has. ------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 11:39
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"those 30000 Turkish people are mostly civillians (doctors,teachers,lawyers)."
Where did you get this from? Those 30 000 people are mostly KURDS. ------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 11:53
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of course there are kurdish people among the 30.000.but those Kurds
were in Turkish side.you dont get it.its not a war between Kurds and
Turks.its between PKK and Turkey.Kurds here are
doctors,judges,soldiers,officers even head of the state(Turgut
Özal,İsmet İnonü).they are not separeted from Turks.we live together,we
fight shoulder to shoulder against terrorism.there are many fallen
commandos which are ethnically Kurdish in Northern Iraq's mountains. well,my father is an officer,once he told me about a soldier under his command.he said that that soldier is his favourite,he is from Van,a perfect sharpshooter(the best in his barracks) honest and hardworking. and this guy used to wear Turkish Army Uniform and he is proud of it.he will not hesistate to kick PKK's a** if he faced a terrorist believe me. ------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: TheDiplomat
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 11:54
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well said Batu.. Cent, one thing you fail to admit is that these dead peole were Turkish citizens...be it Turk, Kurd or Zaza. ------------- ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever! |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 14:15
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I don't fail to see that, I know that they were Turkish citizens.
I think you fail to see that he used the word people!
"those 30000 Turkish people are mostly civillians (doctors,teachers,lawyers)."
------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: TheGame
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 17:04
I said Kurdish government, not the PKK. Iran has shown no signs of aggression against the autonomy of Norther Iraq's Kurdish region.
Civil war is two factions within a nation fighting, and guessing by the huge number of casualties, what happened in Turkey was definetly civil war. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 17:25
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DayI, professional soldier does not mean cool, hard, tough with the best training and equipment. All it means is that these men are paid to be soldiers. They are no longer Peshmerga.
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Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 21:53
Why i dont call them as soldier? -they arent a part of official iraqi army, illegally soldiers or individual guards of barzani and talebani clans -many of them are recruited from barzani and talebani clans and many of them arent trained, again i repeat many of them where recruited for only they could use a riffle + they are used as guards, "police corps" (= mehdi army). -however what their training is, they are still called peshmerga by Kurdish people out there. -they are being paid from the beginning, as i said before they where paid by Turkish government till late 90's. Being paid doesnt mean they are soldiers. -A soldier wears official uniform, where are their uniforms? How could i distinguish them from terrorists? Having a AK in his hands and wearing a red turban make them feel soldiers  ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 21:57
The baby who's shotten dead by PKK terrorists and wich is everywhere used by Turkish nationalists is a Kurdish baby... ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 14:50
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i am saying this again.its not a war between two nations.i dont kill my
Kurdish neighbour.there is no defence line no battlefield this is just
planned professional terrorism against Turkey(there are also good
Kurdish Turk citizens:)).yes the casulities are too much but that
doesnt mean its a war.PKK doesnt have a government.(there are many
governments which supports PKK but its an other question to discuss) ------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 15:26
| OK guys, let's get back on topic away from blacklisted discussions! |
Posted By: TheGame
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 16:10
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DayI, you still have not said why sending Kurdish troops to Baghdad is a bad idea. You told me I was wrong several times in saying that it was a good idea, so I want to know why it is a bad idea. ------------- |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 16:29
 ) tryed to prove you wrong.
What will peshmerga's do in bagdat? Will they clash with sunnie's - shi'as? Is there a possibility? I do think of yes. Kurds are also sunnie in Iraq, many of them are religious and they may be clash with mehdi army. ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: TheGame
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 18:03
Woops, maybe it was bulldog! I'm not sure, too lazy to look back...
Well, thats what I'm saying. The Sunni Arabs' main complain is that the Shia's are gaining all the power. The Kurds are both Sunni and they dont want any conflict with the Shia, therefore, it would make the situation much better to have Kurdish troops in Baghdad, along side American, Sunni, and Shia troops, to keep the peace. I dont believe the Kurds would fight the Shia's, because they would have done so by now. The Kurds are more interested in building either a federalist Iraq or keeping their autonomy and possibly declaring independence. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 18:30
| If anyone attacks the Kurds in Baghdad it will be Baathists and Sunni extremists. |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 20:15
------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: TheGame
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 20:59
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There are some very interesting e-mails that I have recieved regarding the neo-con agenda in the middle east that I have posted on my forum... I dont know if I can post the links to them, but basically, this very plan that is now initiated in Iraq seems to go back to the 1970's. I dont know if you guys have seen this map or not:    But this map was originally thought of in the 1970's! ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 02:44
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weird map, specially what the hell is islamic sacred states. Totally idiotic, even name itself is idiotic.. How can a state become sacred..
I am also curious why kurdistan include artvin(because there is not any kurd at that city, laz, georgians and turks live there.)
I think a child created a map. It is not an important issue.
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 06:25
Shie have no interest in attacking Kurds, since they have no stake in Baghdad or other Arab areas, and the two are de-facto allies. Only Baathists andthe Brit/US would have an interest in attacking Kurds and blaming it on Shie, so as to cause further conflict.
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Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 16:06
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Mortaza, that map is not worth your comments. ------------- |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 17:44
if this scenario happens i think Turkey will enter Iraq... ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 17:50
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"if this scenario happens i think Turkey will enter Iraq... "
And hell will break loose, I can assure you that!
------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 18:19
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Turkmens are fine with Kurds.
The Sunni Arab triangle can become a glorious puppet state like Jordan.
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Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 18:26
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Of course they are. Just look at Kurdistan now, everyone is moving there, Christians, Turkmens and Arabs.
I think like 50 000 Arabs have moved to Northern Iraq. ------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 13:24
|
Even if Turkish army invades N. Iraq, how does it have anything to do with settlements? PKK militans dwell in camps near mountains, not in towns or cities.
By the way, the number of PKK terrorists in Turkish soil is at least ten times more than the ones' in Iraq. ------------- |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 14:21
Is that a threat? You did sound like propaganda minister of Saddam for a moment
------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 14:23
|
Turkomans are not getting well with Kurds.Mosul and Kerkuk were
turkoman cities but whe the peshmerga came the Turkomans had to ran for
their lives.
------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 14:28
Why are you so confident? ------------- |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 14:33
|
why dont you believe in your country's military might?
------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 14:50
In conventional warfare, US is ten times stronger than Turkey. I think you know how they are faring in Iraq right now. ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 14:52
|
because It was a failure against PKK. All power is under the hand of army, and It did not destroy pkk.
why should I trust my army at Iraq when It cannot destroy pkk at turkey? It is sad but reality, our army is good only against their own unarmed people.
|
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 15:22
I think the time is come to change some military personnel, after fiasco's this month (modernizing f-16's) i think people are beginning to realize that our army has lost some prestige. If you surf on some Turkish military sites, you'll realize (Turkish) people start to complain, critize Turkish army... ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 15:43
|
It is difficult to modernize army, because noone audit army. They are boss of themself
people(Standart ones, not people who interest military) are not aware of the fact that our army is not good. because army and nationalist feed people with propaganda that our army is best.(and Turks are powerful.)
When a soldier died, noone ask why army could not protected this soldier or why army still could not finished PKK. They just say vatan sagolsun.
I think our army is a little similar with Yeniceris.Not a powerful army, not high technology(We have biggest army of Europea but result?), ineffective , interested much with politics and greatly corrupted.(Why older generals become COE after they left army? what the hell they know about management. Of course.) Aslında, kurmay albayın askere gelen muzu caldığını bile gördüm. Ama ingilizcesini fazla ayıp olacaktı.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 15:56
|
The Turkish millitary could wipe out Pkk Terrorism in a month if it wanted to, what you have to realise is that this is not a conventional war, its a dirty terrorist conflict. Now, if the millitary was to wipe out their presence they could easily do this. That isn't the problem, things would be fine for a few month's and then another outside financer would organise, fund and arm another Terrorist movement. Turkey needs to create a situation in which its borders are secured as they are the immediate threat. Its amazing that the country actually survived during the Cold-War era almost a miracle. Her Eastern borders had the Soviets arming and funding initially Leftists which when failed they turned to extremist Marxism hence DHKP/C and Pkk Terrorist Org. Then there was Syria in alliance with the Soviets who infact trained and began Pkk in the Bekaa valley which has been a breeding ground for countless amounts of Terrorist orgs. There beef was the Hatay region and destabilising Turkey to please the Soviet allies and themselves. Also Greece helped the Pkk spread.
Today the situation is far more stable for Turkey, she has good relations with Bulgaria and improving one's with Greece. There is no Soviets anymore, Georgia is an ally, Azerbaycan and Turkey are like the same country, Syria has much bigger problems on its plate and like Iran has now been stabbed with its own sword as now the U.S is using Pkk to cause chaos in Syria and Iran with groups like Pejak.
The main threat left for Turkey is now Northern Iraq, if she can deal with this problem, not only eliminate the millitary presence but regional financers, media links, people high up who are connected and bringing arms and so on, in other words she has to destroy the entire organisation from its roots and anybody linked in any sort of way giving absolutely no mercy. Slowly, she is pushing Pkk presence into North Iraq, waiting for them to build up there, when the time is right and the logistics available they'll probobly enter.
If this threat is pacified it would have been a successfull foreign policy over the last 30 years, from having every border country as an enemy to having practically all as an ally.
However, this is Iraq, so anything should be expected and anything can happen nothing is simple or black and white. The millitary will only wipe out Pkk Terrorism if they can totally erradicate it and make sure that it has secured all borders to stop any border country trying to start another Terror Org.
p.s Murtaza, if Turkey didn't have a powerfull millitary it wouldn't have survived till today, if your weak in the region your finished and that's a fact, most people in Turkey support the army and infact see it as the least corrupt of the organisations in the country and one that represents people most. The poor kids can become Pasha but the poor kid's cannot become Basbakan. Emir Demiri Keser, most people don't fear millitary as they are a part of it or have family in it, plus alot of people like strong leader's who get things done instead of weak inefficient one's who get pushed around  Oh and they are great at management, are totally professional and can creat fantastic organisational efficiency, if you can run an army you can run any organisation.------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 16:07
Remember Osman Pamukoglu, he did one of the greatest operations against PKK in 93-94, killed more then 2000 PKK terrorists and guess what he got retired in 96... have a look at this http://trmilitary.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5317&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
A note, I dont say they are bad instead of they are still strong have much better equipments then his neighbors but the time is come to criticize them. Ottomans threated Yeniceris much better then Turkish army today, they equiped their Yeniceris with all the best they had. Ah Osmanli ahhhh... ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 16:09
|
The Turkish millitary could wipe out Pkk Terrorism in a month if it wanted to, what you have to realise is that this is not a conventional war, its a dirty terrorist conflict.
Realy? so why are we fighting 20 years? Infact Army had all powers, she forced people to leave their villages, burned forests, but she could not destroy pkk. A war is dirty thing. It is true, they can never destroy PKK, but what the 300 pkk terrorists doing at Tunceli?
That isn't the problem, things would be fine for a few month's and then another outside financer would organise, fund and arm another Terrorist movement.
Standart turkish approach, everytime someone outside of Turkey is guilty.
Turkey needs to create a situation in which its borders are secured as they are the immediate threat.
It is army job to secure borders and army failed. Now we hope USA and Iraq will secure our borders with iraq.
Her Eastern borders had the Soviets arming and funding initially Leftists which when failed they turned to extremist Marxism hence DHKP/C and Pkk Terrorist Org. Then there was Syria in alliance with the Soviets who infact trained and began Pkk in the Bekaa valley which has been a breeding ground for countless amounts of Terrorist orgs. There beef was the Hatay region and destabilising Turkey to please the Soviet allies and themselves. Also Greece helped the Pkk spread.
Noone is saying PKK is a gang. It is why we need army. For gangs we have police.
The main threat left for Turkey is now Northern Iraq, if she can deal with this problem, not only eliminate the millitary presence but regional financers, media links, people high up who are connected and bringing arms and so on, in other words she has to destroy the entire organisation from its roots and anybody linked in any sort of way giving absolutely no mercy.
how? Army cannot destroy PKK even at Turkish soil(where army had knowledge about topografy.), do you realy think Turkish army can destroy pkk at iraq? Infact I think we are incapable of destroying PKK at iraq. We entered iraq before and before. No gain only pain.
If this threat is pacified it would have been a successfull foreign policy over the last 30 years, from having every border country as an enemy to having practically all as an ally.
My friend, every country have some enemy. It is why we have army. If we have only allies, why do we pay these guys money?
Their job is to produce security, that is why they get money. If they cannot give security to us, They are failed. Easy.
They get what they want at eastern Turkey and they could not give what we want.
|
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 16:19
|
p.s Murtaza, if Turkey didn't have a powerfull millitary it wouldn't have survived till today, if your weak in the region your finished and that's a fact,
what? Even we had no army, neither greece, nor iraq or syria can power to enter ankara. We should compare our army with countries who have same population. Not greece, syria or iraq. I should add, even a win against greece is not sure.
most people in Turkey support the army and infact see it as the least corrupt of the organisations in the country and one that represents people most.
True, army is see as not corrupted. why? Because noone audit them.
Secondly no, Turkish people dont think army represent them. They never voted parties that supported by army, even after coups.
The poor kids can become Pasha but the poor kid's cannot become Basbakan.
Firstly for your information, most our our basbakan begins their life as poor. Secondly wrong, search army and state, you will see a lot people who have ottoman pasa ancestors. Infact I find it ironic, son of ottoman pasas accuse ottomans.
Emir Demiri Keser, most people don't fear millitary as they are a part of it or have family in it, plus alot of people like strong leader's who get things done instead of weak inefficient one's who get pushed around
whattt?? all people afraid army like sh*t. even our goverments afraid army. And as I said before, our army is inefficent.
Oh and they are great at management, are totally professional and can creat fantastic organisational efficiency, if you can run an army you can run any organisation.
My friend, You have no idea about management do you? You cannot order customers. Oh wait, Of course you can order customers, If this customers are army. Reality is that, they employ generals, because It is easy way to sell something to army. running army is same with running any organization? haha funny.
A note, I dont say they are bad instead of they are still strong have much better equipments then his neighbors but the time is come to criticize them.
I agree about neighbors but well, becoming better than syria, iraq, georgia, bulgaria, greece, or armenia is not realy enough for Turkey.
And I cannot say we are better than Iran(and have some suspect about greece.)
|
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 16:27
|
have a look at this http://trmilitary.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5317&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 - http://trmilitary.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5317&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 now, this is more sad than I think. He is saying that we cannot do any thing about north iraq. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 16:46
|
Mortaza
Realy? so why are we fighting 20 years?
I explained it, read what I wrote, eliminating it with hostile neighbours and it would be a matter of time before they created a new Terrorist Org, it's not a conventional war its very mucky. For it to be eliminated borders firstly need to be secured and at most countries need to be on good relations.
Mortaza
It is army job to secure borders and army failed.
Turkey's borders are ALOT safer than 30 years ago, its progressing.
Mortaza
how? Army cannot destroy PKK even at Turkish soil(where army had knowledge about topografy.), do you realy think Turkish army can destroy pkk at iraq? Infact I think we are incapable of destroying PKK at iraq. We entered iraq before and before. No gain only pain.
Read what I wrote.
It can only be destroyed when the time is right, when the neighbour countries have a more passive stance and are not interested in war's anymore.
Mortaza
My friend, every country have some enemy. It is why we have army. If we have only allies, why do we pay these guys money?
If your army is powerfull enough nobody will want to be an enemy as they'll know the concequence
Mortaza
what? Even we had no army, neither greece, nor iraq or syria can power to enter ankara. We should compare our army with countries who have same population. Not greece, syria or iraq. I should add, even a win against greece is not sure.
Don't be so sure, look at Israel small country but can take on all its larger neighbours.
Also don't forget at the time there was the Soviet's, they would have swept into Turkey easily if they felt there would be no millitary resistance.
Mortaza
Secondly no, Turkish people dont think army represent them.
Most people you talk with have respect for the millitary are you going to deny this?
Mortaza
whattt?? all people afraid army like sh*t. even our goverments afraid army. And as I said before, our army is inefficent.
Really, so you represent everyone do you, let's go and ask the first thousand people we come across and get their response, be honest what will most people say
Millitary is not a problem to most people, its not like Latin America.A weak millitary in the middle east means your FINISHED, don't think your in some lovely neighbourhood things can change tomorrow and if your not ready your be the next one out, look how many states are created, lost, ended etc if you don't have a strong millitary your a target and its time you opened your eyes to this reality.
Mortaza
My friend, You have no idea about management do you? You cannot order customers. Oh wait, Of course you can order customers, If this customers are army. Reality is that, they employ generals, because It is easy way to sell something to army. running army is same with running any organization? haha funny.
My friend do you know what it's like to run a large, medium or even small scale organisation. Were not talking about a shop in the tertiary industry, were talking about companies, businesses. Do you understand how these are run? what it takes to run them? it has nothing to do with customer's it has everything to do with Organisation, efficiency, production and quality. If your ineffective and keeping your army (workforce) in order, in motivating them, keeping everything organised, keeping to schedule, to date, to time then you will FAIL. The business world is like the millitary, you have to make key decisions or all your force will suffer and be lost as a result. Who has better organisational skill's? tell me.....A General running a corporation is a great idea, the CEO keeps everything in order, to lower level managers and workforce take care of customer services, providing good service and creating the good reputation. What is funny? could you tell me? what experience do you have in large national or global corporations, do you know how rutheless the business world is and how competitive it is. There is no space for weak, inefficient, leaders who have no organisational skills, a General who has good business and economics training would make a great CEO and there is nothing funny about it. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 16:54
| whatever. I dont discuss this, specially after this Good general= Good management thing. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 17:39
|
Leadership Secrets of Attila the Hun http://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Secrets-Attila-Wess-Roberts/dp/0446391069 - http://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Secrets-Attila-Wess-Roberts/dp/0446391069
Victory Secrets of Attila the Hun
by http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/102-7179100-3260157?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Wess%20Roberts - Wess Roberts " http://www.amazon.com/Victory-Secrets-Attila-Wess-Roberts/dp/0440505917/ref=pd_sim_b_1/102-7179100-3260157 - http://www.amazon.com/Victory-Secrets-Attila-Wess-Roberts/dp/0440505917/ref=pd_sim_b_1/102-7179100-3260157
Joking aside these are widely read business books.
Organisational skills are key to companies, the more disciplined you are, the better work ethic you have and ability to motivate staff the better it is for an organisation. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 19:11
About the Turkish army's stance towards our government you have to watch Ceviz Kabugu today. Some Ittihat ve Terakki researchers made the link to the Turkish army today, it whas very interesting. I can only tell that to you in Turkish sorry, my english is limited about this :) ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2007 at 23:52
|
After the bombing of the bookstore in Diyarbekir by elements from within the army, I became convinced that there are at least some within it who do not want the conflict in the South-East to end. They've known war all their lives that it is probably inconceivable for them to stop it, without war nobody would need them, so they are trying to sustain the war. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 00:58
|
Turkey has the best mountain commandos ,Turkey has the most experienced
country in mountain warfare.this is what i read in M5 defence and
strat. : if the US army have been had to deal with PKK,the
mountains of Iraq would be a hell made of stone for them.a US military
expert said this. dont compare the US army and Turkish army,one is a superpower the other one is not.compare it with Greece,Syria,Geogria,Azeris,Armenians.none of them dont stand a chance against Turkish Army(i got it too far, it would be a bloody war but Turkey would come victourous in the end against Greece (population is high you know)). we cant finish the PKK off becouse we cant enter the NOrthern IRaq:) yes there are more terrorists in Turkeys south-east but the camps are in Iraq,Iran and Syria.you have to destroy the camps first. we used to even enter Iran and Pkk was weakened but then they rised again from their graves becouse we enter northern Iraq less often.(yes we do we already cross the line in chasing operations) ------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 02:31
|
Turkish army cannot eliminate PKK, because the local people of Eastern Anatolia supports them. This is a fact.
What should be do? We should develop that region both economically and socially. Poverty, unemployment, illiteracy must be just history. Then we should grant Kurds the rights to preserve their language and culture. The very same thing is valid for other minorities too. ------------- |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 03:33
Best post so far!
 I totally agree. ------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 05:31
You are right, we over populate greece 6 to 1. So winning a war against greece does not mean, we have more efficent army than greece. We have more powerful army than greece, but hell how can It be otherwise.
Not entering North Iraq is not also true. We entered iraq countless time before.
As I said before, army had last voice at Eastern Turkey. Politicians or others did not do any thing at Eastern Turkey, they just listened army. If Army could not finish PKK, This is a failure. (After Dayı article, I am begining to suspect Infact This failure is a wanted by army.)
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 05:34
|
Turkish army cannot eliminate PKK, because the local people of Eastern Anatolia supports them. This is a fact.
That is not totally true. Some locals support them, Some locals forced to support them(By PKK). And some locals supported them because of wrong doing done by state and army.
Personaly I don think, education or better economy will stop their support to PKK.
|
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 06:59
------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 10:47
|
Originally posted by Feanor Turkish army cannot eliminate PKK, because the local people of Eastern Anatolia supports them. This is a fact. I hear this argument from people that have never set a foot in the region. Have you been to GaziAntep, SanliUrfa, Elazig, Erzerum, Igdir, Hatay etc etc the loca's have fought off Pkk Terrorism, there are more Terrorists in Istanbul than these areas, they're the one's who had to live with them and fight them off. Infact they laugh at people like you who make such comments.
Pkk have centres in Batman-Diyarbekir, Hakkari, Tunceli, why not outside these areas? do you ever visit these areas, do you know what happens, do you talk with the locals. Do you have to pay "Harac", have your kids kidnapped and taken to mountains, have your shop's burnt because you don't show support to Pkk. Pkk has mutated into a monster against the Kurdish people, they suffer because of them.
This idea that the South East is 100 or 90% Kurdish is a fantasy. There are areas with Arab majority, Turkish majority if you actually visited the region you would know this. Places like Bitlis, Tatvan, South SanliUrfa, parts of Hatay are majority Arab they have no problems and are very loyal to the state.
There are more Kurds in West Turkey than in most of the South-East.
Turkish millitary could eliminate Pkk Terrorism in a month but will only do so when the time is right. When neighbour countries borders are secured, they give up plans of sponsering terrorism and don't have plans to set up new organisations.
Pkk Terrorism is founded by Marxists. They have no use today so have lost the plot and try to make news through terrorism. Most Kurds are religous and don't support Pkk, in addition alot of Asiret's support state and fight terror.
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 12:20
|
Why don't you let Kurdish people speak for themselves? I don't think a Grey Wolf who pretends to be a British person can represent them.
I can assure you, anyone who considers himself a 'Kurd', has some sort of sympathy for PKK. Oh sure, there are tribal leaders sanctioned by the state or village guards perhaps, as exceptions. Kurds support PKK. Don't you remember the rallies? Thousands of people had gathered for PKK in early 2006. Let's not fool ourselves. Eastern and south eastern parts of Turkey are predominantly Kurdish. This is a fact. You can deny it forever. You may be right about Antep, but not Diyarbakir, Urfa or Hakkari. By the way, I refuse to learn about my country from a schizophrene.
My mistake. We must force them to have our identity.  ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 12:55
|
Feonor
Why don't you let Kurdish people speak for themselves?
Why don't you? and why don't you learn more about your own country and stop stereotyping.
Feonor
I can assure you, anyone who considers himself a 'Kurd', has some sort of sympathy for PKK.
Can you? proove it, they say there are 8-10 million Kurds in Turkey (Kurds who identify as Kurds) out of them in the Pkk strongest area Diyarbekir they only managed a small rally and then they smashed the shop's of these who didn't participate? years ago they could organise huge rallies, this points to the contrary of your argument.
Feonor
You may be right about Antep, but not Diyarbakir, Urfa or Hakkari.Let's not fool ourselves. Eastern and south eastern parts of Turkey are predominantly Kurdish.
Why don't you read what I wrote, however, SanliUrfa? you ever been there? actually the city rejected Terrorism, it has a strong religous atmosphere and is a beautiful area. While Diyarbekir is going backwards, SanliUrfa is moving forwards, its starting to open to tourism. If you go to SanliUrfa alot of local's have a self-pride, they like that there district is known for heroism. You can hear Arabic, Kurdish, Turkish, plus south SanliUrfa is predominantly Arab. Even Kurdish population in SanliUrfa is religous, there is little Pkk support.
Well go on, tell me about other parts, where have you been huh. So your saying, Kilis, Hatay, Osmaniye, Elazig, Malatya, Erzerum, Erzincan, Bitlis, Igdir, Kars, KahramanMaras...are predominantly Kurdish. Let me say, Izmir, Istanbul area's have more Kurds than these areas.
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 13:40
|
What does religion have anything to do with this?
If you think that PKK militans and supporters are atheist thanks to their knowledge of Marxist dialectical materialism, you are more foolish than I thought. I have lived in Batman for two years. I was very young. But I know enough to say that you are wrong.
I am talking about percentages. 
------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 14:31
|
Religion has everything to do with it, Pkk activists are anti-religous, or they like to promote ancient Kurdish religions and claim that the Arabs enslaved them. Infact generally conservative, religous areas in Turkey do well, Konya, SanliUrfa, Kayseri, Malatya etc are examples of up and comming regions in Turkey.
What percentages? the places I listed in the last post are not predominantly Kurdish. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 15:01
There is nothing tobe forced, does that happen today? We are living in the same country, we definitely should speak a ONE language to communicate with each others! Turkiye is an uniter (ulus) country, if you gonna accept Kurds as a minority (give them own education, lang, etc) means that you trow the lausanne treaty to the garbage! In this case it is better to be schizophrenia then a imbecile. ------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 15:52
|
Bulldog, I was in Turkey this summer, on holidays, in Alanya. Plenty of Kurds actually work there. And guess what? My father who is Iranian Kurd starts to talk to them about PKK. They are pro-PKK, but they do not show it. People DO support the PKK's goal = to establish a Kurdistan, or atleast more rights for our people, maybe federalism.It varies, and if a Kurd starts to talk bad about them, it is usually because they're afraid of Turkish police.
But remember deep inside the majority of Kurds want to have ATLEAST federalism, so they can preserv their culture and language.
------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 16:46
|
Why on Earth would you go on "holiday" in Turkey, your the first to post propoganda against Turkey and how its some awfull terrible state, yet you go on holiday there, lie on the beach, have a good time, chill with the locals, spend money in the area, I mean common you just make your stance look ridiuclous. People? who? your just making generalisations, alot of Kurds have suffered at the hands of Pkk Terrorism so no everybody doesn't admire their terrorism. You act like everybody is petrified this is crap, infact Turkey has more relaxed law regarding open endorsement of Terrorism than the EU. In EU if you are caught carrying out any form of Terrorist listed propoganda you will face 10 years in jail.
More rights, federalism, Pkk doesn't give a crap about this, it's making big bucks drug trafficing, human trafficing, extorting money.
Turkey as time progresses will give full language and cultural rights to Kurds. It won't accept federalism, besides realistically speaking sucessfull Kurds in Istanbul, Izmir are now Istanbullu, Izmirli. Why should Kurds settle for having a small region in the mountainess part of the South East when they can have acess to all Turkey.
If there was federal or another state, it wouldn't be anything like those maps some propoganda agencies like to draw. It will consist around Diyarbekir, Batman, Hakkari, Silopi, South Van region. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 17:18
And why is that? ------------- |
Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 17:37
------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2007 at 18:41
Totally irrelevant. Nobody forces me to do so. ------------- |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 00:07
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you call Bulldog a greywolf presents to be an English man but you call blood-thirsty buthcherers "freedom fighters". .grhrr Bulldog you bad boy :) ------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 05:53
Did I? ------------- |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 06:39
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"Why on Earth would you go on "holiday" in Turkey, your the first to post propoganda against Turkey and how its some awfull terrible state, yet you go on holiday there, lie on the beach, have a good time, chill with the locals, spend money in the area, I mean common you just make your stance look ridiuclous."
Bulldog, I am against the Turkish regime, not the people.
Am I ridiculous, wasn't you in Eastern Turkey? IN KURDISTAN?
What I find ridiculous is that first you come here and claim you're British, and then from no where you're Turkish.
YOU'RE VERY CREDIBLE! You're a clown. ------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2007 at 06:51
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What does religion have anything to do with this?
Sunni Kurds are religious people(Just look at the second party at kurdish areas, not left, not right, but religous AKP.) but religion is only a small part of it. Giving ural rights of kurds is acceptable. Federation is not.
I dont care If Turkey speak turkish or kurdish, but I care If Turkey divided.(I prefer a kurdish turkey than a divided Turkey.)
I should also say, we should differentiate Sunni kurds, alevi kurds. They have some difference.(Specially Alevi kurds are more pkk lovers.)
Their problems are different too.(I think Turkey suppress both religion and langauge of alevi kurds, It only suppress langauge of sunni kurds.)
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