Pork eating & christmas
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran
Forum Discription: Babylon, Egypt, Persia and other civilizations of the Near East from ancient times to 600s AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16609
Printed Date: 25-Apr-2024 at 07:24
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Topic: Pork eating & christmas
Posted By: xi_tujue
Subject: Pork eating & christmas
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 14:30
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I realy want to figure this out for once end for all. Question 1 What did Jesus say about eating pork. Christians say: Jesus say it was permitted to eat pork conusme allmost everything only in moderation. But what bugs me is Jesus him self was raised as a Jew(they don't eat pork) So Jesus would probably nevr have eaten pork himself(he lived in israel right..) See the weiredness in the link Jews(no pork) Christians(pork) Muslims(no pork) I think there is something missing. So my question is Couldn't it have been that The consumption of pork was made acceptable after converting the europeans for whom pork was their man meat source. It would have been easier to say okay follow our religion and yes you can eat pork Question nuber 2 Why is it that christmas fals on 25 dec the same day as the pagan gremanic tribes celibrated midwinterfeast with a pine three. you get the point so whats the deal?  ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Replies:
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 14:50
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I don't know about the first part, but the reason christmas is celebrated on dec, 25 is mainly because the priests were trying to get the pagans to accept christian religion. So instead of fighting them, they just adapted certain pagan feast days, as well as traditions. The Pagan Yuletide ran from the 21st to the 24th so it was just easier than getting anyone to accept new dates. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 14:52
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hmm yes I heard that before yes but as you say instead of fighting them just go with it You could say the same about the first part
------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 15:34
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I heard some middle eastern Christians don't eat Pork? ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 16:30
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I find your pork theory acceptable Xi - it makes sense.
I think 25th was the birthday of Mithra whom the Roman military elites worshipped, the 25th was to win them over perhaps. As for eating pork, why do Judaism and Islam forbid it? There are wild pigs in Iran, I wonder if they were consumed pre-Islam - the Tigers used to hunt them. ------------- |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 18:06
By reasoning alone i would say that was a fair deduction. I am sure someone will come up with a more authoritative answer. ------------- |
Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 20:14
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Huh, I debated about this in Sunday School. I'd like to add my comment, but I got this forsaken Internal Assessment due tomorrow. My teacher changed the deadline from January 12 to tomorrow today. So... expect feedback on Friday... Forever chained serf of the dominion of IB,
pekau ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi"> 
Join us. |
Posted By: Eondt
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 22:52
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The following is from Romans 14. It was written to the Romans by Paul after they were arguing amongst themselves about the same thing:
"14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28280b - b ] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean."
and
"20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble."
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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 23:06
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xi-tujue
your argument sound logical that they had to allow something not allowed just to get more followers.
Just a correction, Jesus lived in Palestine, there was no Israel till 1946. ------------- 
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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 00:40
now I have readen it agian. yes, you are right sometimes I wright well lets say understandable.(It's more like all the time but I have my moments  )
sorry, But I thought he was from Judea(did Palestine even exist then as a country I mean)
I go to a Catholic school(well it use to be the only remnants of that era is the discipline compared to other schools. I have a theacher who gives religion(we debate religious things)(Belgium is quite free and supportive of freedom of religion. Because I go to a catholic school I don't have that choice but the other schools of belgium you can chise between Christian, Catholic, Islam & sometimes even Judaism and we even have Ethics for the athiests) Back to topic my teacher said the same but he also said that he had his doubts. According to Islam the pig is not one of Gods creations nor is the cat & another animal. Something to do with the Arkh of Noa(I think some of our members are more fit to awnser this than me) ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 00:59
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Well Bible says you can eat pork.
And 6th of January is Christmas for Orthodox curch. 25th is not the only xmass :) ------------- |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 01:01
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Jesus didn't start the church or the traditions within the church, that happened after him. There are other members here that have better knowledge of early christian/church history but ill give it a shot. As far as i know the church was split originally by two lines. One was under Jesus's brother james based in Jerusalem and the other under Paul. The James version was much closer to the jewish traditions and aimed at Jews. Pauline Christianity was more or less aimed at gentiles and took in a strong roman-Hellenic influence (and point of view), thus diluting the Jewishness of the religion. Pauline Christianity eventually took over and dominated the religion and is the foundation of the orthodox-catholic church. I would suggest from this part of early Christian history, one can understand how the differences started to occur. BTW almost all orthodox (bar the Greek church) celebrate Christmas by the old calender which is the 7th of January. ------------- 
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Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 01:20
Yes 7th of January. Sorry for mistake  ------------- |
Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 01:49
The traditional dish of Christmas in Greece in most regions is actually pork. 
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 03:56
| According to Islam the pig is not one of Gods creations nor is the cat & another animal. Something to do with the Arkh of Noa(I think some of our members are more fit to awnser this than me) Err, realy If god not created them, who created? I dont remember any story about pig,dog, cat and Arkh of Noa. I am realy curious about what are you talking. Everything(good or bad) created by god. |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 05:20
Actually, in the past, the pig was a major part of agricultural economy in Greece (and many other countries, I'm sure). The farmers would have their fields, maybe their cows (to sell their milk), maybe sheep (for milk and meat) but they always kept a pig.
The pig would be raised throughout the year, eating scrap and food leftovers, and the day before Christmas it would be slaughtered in a big celebration (Cheiro-sfagia). The peasants would eat on Christmas, keep the rest of the meat for other occasions (smoked or kept in lard), keep the fat for cooking, blood for sausages etc. They would use this precious protein source (which was basically for free) to eat for the rest of the year (meat was reserved for special occasions). ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Giannis
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 05:35
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Pig was always one of the most essential economical goods of Greece, from the ancient times, untill today. Even Ulysses had disguised himself once like a pig-shepherd. -------------  Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.
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Posted By: The_Jackal_God
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2006 at 20:15
| acts of the apostles: peter is told while visiting Cornelius that Christians can eat whatever god put on the green earth, so that would include pork. |
Posted By: TheMysticNomad
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2006 at 05:20
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As a vegetarian (trying to be a vegan), all this quibbling about what kind of meat to eat looks dumb. Why not just give up all meat (and any animal products) altogether? It's all bad for your health, causing cancer and cardiovascular disease. Ever wonder why the rate of cancer and cardiovascular disease is so high in the U.S. and western Europe? It's because they eat more meat than anyone else in the world! BTW, there are those who say Jesus was a vegetarian. They say that since the fish he created when he created the 'loaves and fishes" were like magical fish, they weren't real fish.
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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2006 at 07:39
Mongolians only east meat or what about the yakuts they don't have that problem. "I didn't rose all the way to the top of the food chain to eat carrots" ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2006 at 08:15
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Vegetarianism, although I respect anyones personal choice in the matter, is not natural. We are (like the apes and the pigs) omnivores. We need meat for several reasons, most prominently B12. Veganism in particular is actually unhealthy and should not be encouraged.
I have a friend who is a vegetarian only because her parents are ad she was raised that way. She has health problems, mainly chronic anemia and B12 shorage. This is not caused by vegetarism, but it makes it much much worse. If she had not been a vegetarian, she would be a normal healthy person. I do not understand how parents can risk the health of their child for a belief or conviction.
So, mysticnomad, I find your suggestion every one should just give up meat looks dumb. How about respecting other peoples choices on the point? Besides, your veganism is a luxury, many people in this world will have to eat whatever there is there to eat, or nothing at all. You need a lot of time and a lot of money to be a veganist and stay healthy, only rich people can afford to make that choice.
The tale of the theoretical fish sounds like a lame attempt from somebody to sanctify their own beliefs by using others' believes for their own gain. I do not believe that anything was turned in something else that day, but to suppose that anything was turned in a metaphore is hilarious. I suppose all the people present fed nicely on deep-fried air?  ------------- 
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 21:40
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A lot of the dates such as the 25th, the pine aka Christmas tree, became Christian norms, as the Church adopted ways to be more open and attractive to pagan converts, who found it easier to convert, and retain familiar feast days, etc. On the pork issue itself, Jesus said he came to reaffirm the laws:
" Think not that I have come to abolish the law
and the prophets: I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17 RSV) Therefore, the eating of pork would be a sin still, the church used practicality as it was a staple food of much of Europe, and in many aspects an irreplecable on as well.
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Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2006 at 18:26
Yes, the Christians did not have to be accomodated at the expense of the Pagan. Why not reconcile the two?
Jesus was a Jew and followed the old testament and came to reaffirm the old teachings. There is nothing that can be ascribed to Jesus to permit pork. This abrogation of the previous order is rather on the authority of Peter's dream, seen as a right to eat whatever.
Acts 10:9-16"About noon the next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat; and while it was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw the heaven opened and something like a large sheet coming down, being lowered to the ground by its four corners. 12In it were all kinds of four-footed creatures and reptiles and birds of the air. 13Then he heard a voice saying, “Get up, Peter; kill and eat.” 14But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is profane or unclean.” 15The voice said to him again, a second time, “What God has made clean, you must not call profane.” 16This happened three times, and the thing was suddenly taken up to heaven. " http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=acts+10%3A9-16&vnum=yes&version=nrsv - http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=acts+10%3A9-16&vnum=yes&version=nrsv
What would have happened if pork was banned in the land??? ------------- |
Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 04:00
The Jews had the necessity to distinguish themselves from the neighbouring peoples who ate pork, to create the ideology of "we against them". Islam is only a reformed judaism, so ... |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 05:15
your source or proof btw Christianity is also a reform of Judaism so.... ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 05:26
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Just imagine eating fatty pork ,drinking alcohol and getting out at the desert! Common sense. ------------- http://protostrator.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 05:57
Ancient Jews didn't live in desert ... |
Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 06:02
About judaism and (not)eating pork a good source is "The Bible Unearthed. Archeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts", by Finkelstein and Silberman. |
Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 06:05
Arabs did. ------------- http://protostrator.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 06:09
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Btw ancient Egyptians lived near desert and they ate pork
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/pigs.htm - http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/pigs.htm |
Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 06:12
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I don't doubt about it! But Mohammed -such an intelligent man- when he was forming a religion was smart enough to prevent his people of some things. ------------- http://protostrator.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 06:18
Yes, they did but this is not the reason why they didn't eat pork. Jews too didn't eat pork and they didn't live in desert ... As I have already written alimentary prohibitions and others taboos are "invented" to distinguish and separate "our" people from "others" and to reinforce ethnocentrism. |
Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 06:28
He should have been a very smart guy to know such things as trichinosis ... I prefer to think he simply inherited this taboo from the Jews 
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Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 06:29
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Yes ,but Jews too lived in a dry hot region near desert. I don't mean that this was the reason for prohibiting pork but simple hygiene rules ,climate ,environment affected the creation of a taboo and the form of it and vice versa. Taboos would be invented one way or another-the form of them is affected of tradition and this of the factors mentioned above(and much more of course) This prohibitions where shaped also by the leaders and reformers of a religion.Those who were writing the "holy scripts". ------------- http://protostrator.blogspot.com |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 07:49
(notice the romans seem to get away from any real guilt or responsibility under Christian accounts)
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 11:44
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Why have restrictions on food? its just as silly a question as asking why a doctor would recommend an overweight heavy smoking, heavy drinking, junk food indulging guy to if possible cut these out of his diet if he wants a healthy life.
Take yourself back 2000 years, to a very hot climate, no fridge's little preservations etc and that the average human life span wasn't very long, advancements were required. Hygiene was a major contributor to human illnesses and problems, therefore rules were created to "benefit" humans. Pigs have pretty poor hygiene and their meat is susceptable to many diseases in such an environment. Shell-fish especially in polluted areas intakes all these pollutions and can make eating it a health risk. The Jews in their 40 years in wilderness had to watch hygiene and cleanseness if they were to survive very long and so created laws on food, which were very pracitcal and beneficial. Jesus(p.b.u.h) followed these laws, his immediate family also did and they and the initial followers carried on the actual teaching's of Jesus (P.b.u.h). However, these were discarded by Peter who didn't actually know or follow these original teachings and instead bought a more stomachable version to Rome. There was a great program on this yesterdaay. The secret family of Jesus(p.b.u.h) http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/can_you_believe_it/index.html ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 12:35
As I have written before ancient Egyptians lived in a hot climate and had no problem to eat pork. About the "40 years in wilderness" of the Jews there is no historical or archeological proof of this claim. Read the book of Finkelstein and Silberman I cited before. BTW There are not silly questions, there are only silly answers
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Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2006 at 13:11
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leviticus 11:7-8
http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=leviticus+11%3A7-8&vnum=yes&version=nrsvae - Matthew 8:32
http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=acts+10%3A9-16&vnum=yes&version=nrsv - http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=acts+10%3A9-16&vnum=yes&version=nrsv - Deuteronomy 14:8 And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2014%20;&version=9 - Isaiah 65:2-4 held out my hands all day long to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, following their own devices; 3a people who provoke me to my face continually, sacrificing in gardens and offering incense on bricks; 4who sit inside tombs, and spend the night in secret places; who eat swine’s flesh, with broth of abominable things in their vessels; http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=acts+10%3A9-16&vnum=yes&version=nrsv - Isaiah 65:17
http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=acts+10%3A9-16&vnum=yes&version=nrsv - Here is a more comprehensive article of the same discussion as the one Loknar posted, about Egyptians and pigs. ------------- |
Posted By: TheMysticNomad
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 04:43
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Mongolians? Of course they eat nothing but meat--you can't grow any crops in the Gobi desert. Plus, they get a lot more exercise chasing sheep around than the average westerner sitting at a desk, so they can work off the cholesterol better. Still, I wonder what their average lifespan is. Same thing with Yakuts, Inuit, etc. I don't see how they can avoid hunting/fishing living in the harsh climatic conditions that they do.
I was just commenting on the religious aspect of "God says eat this meat only," which I personally find questionable. If I offended anyone, I apologize and won't do it again!
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 06:39
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 20:53
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The answer to your question has more to do with simple biology than religion.
When a sheep is slaughtered and the hide is removed a film is left covering the meat. In any dry climate this film becomes waxy and protective against bacteria easily entering the meat and the meat remains wholesome just by simply keeping flies away and in the shade. A pig needs to be processed differently. It is nearly impossible to skin or remove the hide from a pig if you do there will be just raw meat without any natural protection. Piglets are a different story, Since the domestication of the pig and the development of fire whole young pigs were spit roasted--and eaten skin and all and once roasted/smoked the meat is less apt to become invaded by bacteria ?? |
Posted By: arch.buff
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 00:26
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"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law. then Christ died to no purpose."
-Galatians 2:21
"Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second."
-Hebrews 8:6-7
"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love."
-Galatians 5:4-6
"But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit."
-Romans 7:6
"Our competence is from God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life."
-2 Corinthians 3:5-6
"And he called the people to him and said to them,"Hear and understand: not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."
-Matthew 15:10-11
I believe its Ok to eat pork or anything else you wish to eat. Most people are probably asking by now "But I though Jesus reaffirmed the prophets that came before him", Well, he did. Jesus reaffirms the Moral codes that were passed down to Moses and the prophets that came before him but what(I believe) he did not reaffirm were the ritual observances such as not eating pork. For these ritual observances will not gain you the Kingdom of Heaven. But only the grace of the Lord and fith working thru love.
For instance when the men brang up the woman to Jesus who had committed adultery what did Jesus say. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Now, it would have been justified by the old law to stone the woman.
Jesus reaffirms the moral codes when he is asked what is the most sacred commandment? He says to love your God with all your heart and to love your neighbor.
If one believes pork to be unclean let him not eat it but if he permits it clean than once again,.....it is to no avail.
------------- Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King. |