Magna Graecia
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Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mediterranean and Europe
Forum Discription: Greece, Macedon, Rome and other cultures such as Celtic and Germanic tribes
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16011
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Topic: Magna Graecia
Posted By: Patrinos
Subject: Magna Graecia
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 17:03
Can you gather here informations about Magna Graecia(South Italy and Sicily)? About the cities,population,culture,personalities,local tribes etc. Until when did Magna Graecia held its Greek character?
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Replies:
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 18:02
Originally posted by Patrinos
Until when did Magna Graecia held its Greek character?
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Magna has lost Greek character?
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Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 20:23
I mean that in antiquity it was almost entirely Greek and today is almost entirely Italian with little Greek remains(Grekani). The goal of this thread is to see how Greek Magna Graecia was and how it dehellenised.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 20:54
Patrinos,
this is a very interesting subject and lots of information is listed on Google
Just type " greeks in italy" and you'll get millions of pages. the first five listed should answer all your questions.--My suggestion, try the http://www.newadvent.com - www.newadvent.com which is about the forth one listed.
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Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 21:11
I know this way xomalley... But it would be better to discuss this important and interesting issue.
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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 02:50
Why don't you say what you know?
But is a lie that the so-called Magna Graecia was Greek. There were only Greek colonies, like in Sicily too:
The Greeks were only a minority in Campania and Sicily. See that they are established only on the coastline because they were not agricultors but commerciants.
See http://www.knowital.com/history/campania/campania-history.html - HISTORY OF CAMPANIA
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Posted By: GoldenBlood
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 03:37
there are/had Albanians (Arbresh or Arvanites), not greeks
------------- Kosova dhe Ilirida, pjese te Dardanise
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 04:17
menumorut, you completey understate the greek presence. For instance pompei was a greek speaking city only becoming bilingual later and at the time of it desctruction. Apulia was colonised by greeks and took many east roman refugees. Calabria was also settled by the greeks, you may say that they only stayed in ports but griko was spoken in the villages up to a modern history, if that doesnt prove the locals were hellenised then what does?
Goldenblood, greeks and albanians. they arived in different times.
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Posted By: borudjin
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 04:31
everything is greek. go megali idea :p
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 05:51
having you got anything informative to add, apart from some witty one liner?
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Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 05:57
Magna Graecia started to de-hellinize after the Roman conquest ,in a surprisingly fast way,comparing with every other hellenic region. Moreover in other regions,Roman colonies and municipia were sooner or later "hellinized".
There was a second "re-hellinization",in the 9th century,after the military recoveries by emperor Basil I the Macedonian of Byzantium. There was a second colonization of south Italy by Greeks ,mainly by mainland Greece and Peloponese.
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Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 06:17
First the term Magna Graecia was introduced by the Romans and not by Megaloideatic Greeks...
Here are some colonies in Sicily only:
Acrai |
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Leontini |
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Acragas |
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Leon |
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Agyra |
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Megara Hyblaea |
Apollonia |
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Mylae |
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Adranum |
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Naxos |
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Catania |
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Naulochus |
Camarina |
Phalarium |
Enna |
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Syracuse |
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Euboea |
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Selinus |
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Gela |
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Segesta |
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Heraklea Minoa |
Thapsus |
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Himera |
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Tyndaris |
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Hyblaea |
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Tauromenion |
Kale Acte |
Zancle/Messina |
Where is Megali Idea here borudjin???? Magna Graecia was the today America for Greeks.A very huge Greek population colonised Sicily and South Italy,that isn't a personal opinion,its a wellknown fact. Until the Normans' conquer of the area the population was Greek and some Hellenised,when it started the latinisation through Catholicism the area was a Greek and Orthodox place like mainland Greece. Note Syracuse reached the 300.000 inhabitants.
Brainstorm I don't have in mind occasions of hellenisation of Roman cities because I don't know any Roman colonies in Magna Graecia,and if there are they are few. If you mean hellenization the bilingual situation among the Roman noble society and philosophers,historians etc ok I agree.
Also Greeks migrated there during the Iconoclasm. In late medieval times(1450-1550) the Greek migration wasn't to Magna Graecia but in Central and North Italy and there aren't big remainsof that migration just some Greek communities in Vevezia for example. In that time the Albanian migrations date,right after Kastriotis' death.
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Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 11:48
And here are the Greek cities of South Italy:
Ancona |
Arpi |
Acre |
Brutium |
Barium |
Cumae (Kyme) |
Croton |
Caulonia |
Capua |
Casmene |
Elea (Velia) |
Hipponion (Vibo) |
Heraclea |
Gela |
Kroton |
Krimisa |
Kallipoli |
Lipari |
Metapontum |
Locri
Epizephirii |
Medma |
Locri Epizephyrii |
Metauros |
Laos |
Neapolis |
Olbia |
Pithekoussai |
Pandosia |
Poseidonia (Paestum) |
Pyrgi |
Puteoli/Dicaearchia |
Paestum |
Pixunte |
Pistoicos |
Rhegium (Rhegion) |
Sybaris |
Scylacium |
Siris |
Tarentum (Taras) |
Thurii |
Terina |
Tropea |
Troilia |
Isn't that a big number of cities????
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 13:08
Originally posted by Patrinos
Can you gather here informations about Magna Graecia(South Italy and Sicily)? About the cities,population,culture,personalities,local tribes etc. Until when did Magna Graecia held its Greek character?
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For start the best reading is Strabo.
Later on, beginning from the time of the Trojan war, the Greeks had taken away from the earlier inhabitants much of the interior country also, and indeed had increased in power to such an extent that they called this part of Italy, together with Sicily, Magna Graecia.
[Strabo,book 6, paragraph 2]
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/6A*.html - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/6A*.html
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0198&query=book%3D%231 - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0198&query=book%3D%231
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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 13:37
menumorut, you completey understate the greek presence. For instance pompei was a greek speaking city only becoming bilingual later and at the time of it desctruction. Apulia was colonised by greeks and took many east roman refugees. Calabria was also settled by the greeks, you may say that they only stayed in ports but griko was spoken in the villages up to a modern history, if that doesnt prove the locals were hellenised then what does? |
Greek colonies were everywhere small communities surrounded and accepted by the majoritary, autochtonous population. Greek communities have a superior level of material culture and this gived the impresion that they are more signifiant in that times and today, for unexperimented archaeologists.
About Pompei, I found something different on the first site I looked:
http://www.iterteam.it/eng/pompei/storia.html - http://www.iterteam.it/eng/pompei/storia.html
The Greek communities in Apulia and Calabriaare from medieval, Byzantine times, not from Antiquity:
In isolated pockets, as well as some quarters of Reggio Calabria, historical stronghold of the Greek language in Italy, a hybrid language that dates back to the 9th century, called Griko, is spoken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria
Later on, beginning from the time of the Trojan war, the Greeks had taken away from the earlier inhabitants much of the interior country also, and indeed had increased in power to such an extent that they called this part of Italy, together with Sicily, Magna Graecia |
Patrinos, you take anything without discerning and throw it on the forum. What credit should we pay Strabo who is saying that Greeks are in Italy from 'Trojan war' times? He was intoxicated with nationalistic propaganda like you too.
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Posted By: nikodemos
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 15:21
Originally posted by Menumorut
Later on, beginning from the time of the Trojan war, the
Greeks had taken away from the earlier inhabitants much of the interior
country also, and indeed had increased in power to such an extent that
they called this part of Italy, together with Sicily, Magna
Graecia |
Patrinos, you take anything without discerning and throw it on the
forum. What credit should we pay Strabo who is saying that Greeks are
in Italy from 'Trojan war' times? He was intoxicated with nationalistic
propaganda like you too. |
Menumorut,you are the only nationalist here.Do you have any source
disproving Strabo?And why should we pay credit to your opinion?
Greeks were in Italy since 6-7 generation BEFORE the trojan war.
Dionysius Alicarnaseus in Roman Archeology mentions that.
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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 15:38
Greeks were in Italy since 6-7 generation BEFORE the trojan war.
Dionysius Alicarnaseus in Roman Archeology mentions that.
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Yes , and Romans were the descendants of Trojans! If these ideas are ancient doesn't means they are something else then lies.
The first Greek colony was established at Cumae in 750, and Greeks continued founding colonies in Campania, Apulia, and eastern Sicily later known as the Magna Graecia for the following two centuries.
www.arcaini.com/ITALY/ItalyHistory/PeopleOfItaly.htm - People Of Italy (the second site with Google)
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Posted By: nikodemos
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 15:49
Archeology will prove in the future whether Strabo and Dionysius were liars or not.
Until Scliemann nobody believed that the myths of Troy and the Trojan war corresponded to a historical reality.
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 17:10
The name "Greco" was coined by the locals for all Greek speakers. The Greek inhabitants of Sicily took their name from Greacus.
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SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 17:18
Until Scliemann nobody believed that the myths of Troy and the Trojan war corresponded to a historical reality. |
In the times of Trojan war even the Ionia was not colonized with Greeks. In fact even Greece was inhabited by Micheneans. Are Michenean or Dorian findings in Italy?
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Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 17:39
Mycenean precence in Italy???Check: google:"mycenean italy"
In fact even Greece was inhabited by Micheneans I don't get you here!! In fact Greece inhabited by Myceneans.Whyyou use "even"?? Menumorot don't destroy this thread
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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 17:55
Check: google:"mycenean italy |
I checked:
http://www.google.ro/search?hl=ro&q=mycenean+italy&btnG=C%C4%83utare+Google&meta= - mycenean italy
Nothing relevant.
The dates at which Greek colonies in Italy and Sicily is knwon, do you have a theory that there existed Greeks before 8th century?
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Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 18:36
Menumor If you can't search your self check this: 3. The latest style was
Late Helladic III B with a small number of exemplars of Late Helladic
III C. See W. Taylour, Mycenaean Pottery in Italy and Adjacent
Areas (Cambridge, 1958) p. 74; H.-G. Buchholz, “Agäische
Funde und Kultureinflüsse in der Randgebieten des Mittelmeers,”
Archäologischer Anzieger 89 (1974) pp. 343, 345, 346,
349-350. Thapsos, near Syracuse and Agrigento, are the two main find
spots.
http://www.greekdarkage.com/colon.htm#f_3 - http://www.greekdarkage.com/colon.htm#f_3
The important and huge migrations trully happened after 8th century BC, so big that the Byzantine Greeks found there a people "eredi ellenofoni".....
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Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 23:08
"A world-class archaeological exhibition opened this week in Calabria, in the toe of Italy.
Its subject is Magna Graecia, or Greater Greece - the name given to parts of southern Italy colonised by the ancient Greeks 2,500 years ago.
Long before the Roman empire flourished, they sailed west in search of new lands.
They settled around the hospitable coastline of Calabria and Sicily, dominating local tribes, building huge temples to their gods and founding Greek-speaking colonies.
However, their cities and culture were later destroyed by the Romans. Only very recently have archaeologists been able to reconstruct their history."
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/greeks/index.shtml - http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/greeks/index.shtml
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Posted By: Ellin
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 02:14
Originally posted by Patrinos
Can you gather here informations about Magna Graecia(South Italy and Sicily)? About the cities,population,culture,personalities,local tribes etc. Until when did Magna Graecia held its Greek character?
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What a great topic.. It's always been one of my dreams to visit the Greek colonies of Southern Italy, and hopefully meet those that claim Greek descendancy.
I recall watching some doco ages ago about the Greki and how the local councils, surrounding the Ancona region (if I'm not mistaken) are joining forces to help locals get back in touch with their Greek roots, and promoting Greek culture etc. Hopefully someone knows more about this, because my memory fails me at the moment.
Here's an excerpt from a site I have known about, but haven't had a chance to refresh my memory on it.. I'm sure you'll find it interesting reading.
How did Greek come to be the vernacular
in parts of Southern Italy?
From the book Polyglot Italy
by Dr. Geoffrey Hull
In ancient times Sicily and the Italian Peninsula south
of Naples were known collectively as Magna Graecia - 'Great Greece' because
of the number and importance of the Greek settlements there. The coasts
of Apulia, Lucania, Campania, Calabria and eastern Sicily were first colonized
by mainland Greeks in the eighth century before Christ. Such celebrated
figures as Empedocles, Theocritus and Archimedes were natives of 'Great
Greece'. Sicily had already been settled by Phoenician colonists from Carthage
in North Africa, and the western districts remained in their hands. Despite
several attempts by the Sicilian Greeks (Siceliots) to gain control of
the whole island. In both Sicily and Italy the Greeks preferred to live
on or near the coasts, where they established their city-states and emporia.
They left the less attractive inland regions to the indigenous peoples
mainly Italici (in eastern Sicily, Calabria and Lucania) and in Apulia,
Messapians, an Indoeuropean people from Illyria.
These autochthonous tribes maintained their own languages for a time,
but at the dawning of the Christian age they were largely hellenized.
The expanding Roman Empire had annexed the whole of Magna
Graecia and Sicily by 241 B.C., and while the Romans planted Latin colonies
here and there, on the whole they treated the Italian Greeks as confederates,
respecting their language and culture. In Rome itself Greek was employed
as a second language and in the first Christian centuries the city had
a large Greek-speaking minority. Latin spread through the Greek cities
of the South as an administrative language but Greek held its own as a
literary medium and the speech of the common people in many areas. At the
height of the Empire Vulgar Latin had inplanted itself as the vernacular
only as far south as the Apulian towns of Tarentum and Brundisium, and
the river Crati in Bruttium (present-day Calabria), the Salentine peninsula,
lower Calabria and eastern Sicily remained for the time being strongholds
of the Greek language.
In the last centuries of the Empire Latin began to encroach
upon literary Greek in Magna Graecia, and it is possible that the Greek
vernacular itself might have given way to early Romance had it not been
for the Byzantine (= Eastern Roman Empire) conquest of 535. Once Constantinople had replaced Rome
as the centre of government, Greek was restored as the official language
of southern Italy and Sicily and cultural ties with the Hellenic mainland
were reaffirmed. The seventh century saw an influx of Greek-speaking refugees
from Syria and Egypt, recently occupied by the Moslems. These immigrants
strengthened the reviving Hellenity of the Byzantine Themes (territories)
of the South.
Before the coming of the Byzantines, Italian and Sicilian
Greek (Italiot), known to the local Italian tribes as Gricus, had been
a variant of the Doric (western) dialect of the mainland. The Byzantines
now introduced the Neo-Hellenic koine based on the speech of Athens (Attic).
The influence transformed the structure of Italiot, though some of the
original Doric features survived, and constitute living proof of the unbroken
continuity of the Greek language in Italy from ancient times.
Linguistic conditions in Sicily were to be drastically
altered by the Saracen invasion of 832. By the tenth century Greek had
receded into the south-eastern corner of the island. Then came the Norman
conquest of the eleventh century, which struck a serious blow at the roots
of Hellenity both in Sicily and on the mainland. The cultural policy of
the Normans was ambiguous: while officially tolerating all languages and
creeds within their realm they also promoted the use of contemporary south
Italian koine (based on the contact language that had evolved in Naples,
Amalfi, Salerno and other ports), and favoured the Latin-rite Catholicism
of the Holy See, their political ally. The Byzantine Christians among their
subjects were severed from the jurisdiction of the Greek Church, by now
in schism from Rome, and throughout the kingdom the eastern liturgy began
to be replaced by the Roman rite with Latin rather than Greek as the language
of worship.
Soon in full decline, the Byzantine rite lingered on in
some parishes of the traditional Greek areas of Apulia, Calabria and Sicily
until the seventeenth century, when it fell victim of the centralizing
policies of the Counter Reformation. From the fourteenth century South
Italian began to spread at the expense of Greek in the Messina-Taormina,
Milazzo triangle (definitively Italianized by the 1500's) and in southern
Calabria and Salento. However there is evidence that Greek continued to
be widely spoken in Calabria (at least by the lower classes) until the Renaissance
period. The anonymous author of a French chronicle of the late thirteenth
century noted that "through the whole of Calabria the peasants speak nothing
but Greek". In 1368 Petrarca recommended a stay in the region to a student
who needed to improve his knowledge of Greek.
In the early sixteenth century Calabrian Greek was still
vigorous in the inland districts south of Palmi and Cittanova but by the
close of the seventeenth century it had receded into the Aspromonte mountains
of the southern tip of the peninsula, an area comprising hte towns of Cardeto,
Bagaladi, Motta San Giovanni, San Lorenzo, Melito, Condofuri, Roghudi, Bova,
Palizzi, Africo and Sant'Agata. For the next century and a half the Calabrian
Grecia
(Greek-speaking zone) remained fairly stable, until the Risorgimento and
Unification unleased a new tide of Italian linguisitic influence which
accelerated the process of erosion. By the 1920's the ancestral language
of South Calabrians could be heard only in the small rural communites of
Bova, Amendola, Condofuri, Galliciano, Roccaforte, Roghudi and Ghorio.
Salentine Greek at first declined more rapidly than its
Calabrian counterpart. Around 1400 it was already confined to a territorial
strip bounded by Gallipoli and the Gulf of Taranto in the west, and Lake
Limini near Otranto in the east, with Struda and Alliste as its respective
northern and southern limits. By the twentieth century this Grecia had
shrunk to a compact district south of Lecce/Luppiu made up of the villages
of Calimera, Martignano, Sternatia, Soleto, Zollino, Martano, Castrignano dei Greci, Corigliano
and Melpignano.
By the time they became citizens of the Kingdom of Italy
in 1861, the Italo-Greeks, mostly poor peasants, had long been severed
from the Byzantine religious traditions and from the mainstream of Neo-Hellenic
civilization, The modern Italiot renaissance began in the Salentine Grecia
through the efforts of Vito Domenico Palumbo (1857 - 1918), a native of Calimera,
who endeavoured to re-establish cultural contacts with mainland Greece.
Although excluded from the churches, schools and government offices, Greek
began to be taught in some villages in the decade following World War
II on the initiative of private individuals. In 1971 the Unione dei
Greci dell'Italia meridionale was founded to foster relations between
the Calabrian Greeks (today numbering only 5,000) and the 15,000 Salentine
Greeks. At least three bilingual journals devoted to the Griko language
are now in circulation, and a number of mainland Greek intellectuals and
cultural bodies have taken an interest in the welfare of their trans-Ionian
brothers. Nevertheless, in spite of these developments, Italo-Greek continues
to be ignored the the Italian government. Furthermore the Calabrian Grecia,
already in an advanced state of decay, suffered a serious setback when
the floods of 1970 and 1972 forced the evacuation of Roghudi and Ghorio.
The inhabitants of these villages have since been resettled along the Ionian
coast and in Reggio where the language has little hope of survival.
Ample traces of the recent Greek past of Calabria, Salento
and north-eastern Sicily remain in the local Neo-Italian dialects (the
Romance speech that replaced Greek), and in regional surnames like
Argurio
('Silver coin'), Calabro ('Calabrian'), Calo, Cala ('good'), Cefali ('head'), Chiriaco ('lordly'), Condro ('fat'), Dascoli ('Teacher'), Foti ('bright'), Lagana ('greengrocer'), Lico ('wolf'), Macri ('long'), Papandrea ('the
priest Andrew'), Patera ('father'), Pangallo ('very good'), Schiro ('hard'), Sgro ('curly-headed'), Spano ('beardless'), Trano ('adult'), Tripodi ('tripod').
The Hellenisms in the modern South Calabrian dialect include such common
words as ciaramide 'tile', ahjeri'dish-rag', crasentulu 'worm', capura
'pail', scifu 'trough', tripu 'hole', cudespina 'old woman', cuddaraci
'Easter bun', fusca 'bran', hasmiari 'to yawn', milinghi 'temples', spissida
'spark', cilona 'tortoise', petula 'butterfly', praia 'beach', rosacu 'frog',
zafrata 'lizard', and zimmaru 'ram'. South Calabrian offers many examples
of Greek syntax in Romance dress, for example the periphrastic construction
that replaces the Italian infinitive, e.g. vogghiu mu vajo 'I want to go'
(literally: "I want that I go") = Bova Greek thelo na pao (It. Voglio andare),
vinni mi ti dugnu 'I came to give you' = irta na su dhosu (It. Venni a
darti). Similarly, the use of the preterite tense instead of the Italian
present perfect betrays a recent Greek substratum, e.g. comu mangiasti?
'how have you eatern?' = local Greek pos efaje? (It. Come hai mangiato?),
ci facistivu? 'what have you done?' = ti ecamete (It. Che cosa avete fatto?). |
http://www.geocities.com/enosi_griko/Articoli/Greek_Vernacular.html - http://www.geocities.com/enosi_griko/Articoli/Greek_Vernacular.html
http://www.geocities.com/enosi_griko/Ta_Grika2.html - http://www.geocities.com/enosi_griko/Ta_Grika2.html
http://www.geocities.com/enosi_griko/ - http://www.geocities.com/enosi_griko/
------------- "Grk ppl r anarchic & difficlt 2 tame.4 this reasn we must strike deep in2 thr lang,relgn,cult& hist resrvs, so that we cn neutrlz thr ability 2 develp,distinguish
themslvs/ 2 prevail"..up urs Kisngr
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Posted By: Ellin
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 02:17
ps Is it true that Calabria has connections with Greece's Kalavrita (Καλαβριτα)?
------------- "Grk ppl r anarchic & difficlt 2 tame.4 this reasn we must strike deep in2 thr lang,relgn,cult& hist resrvs, so that we cn neutrlz thr ability 2 develp,distinguish
themslvs/ 2 prevail"..up urs Kisngr
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Posted By: nikodemos
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 03:26
Originally posted by Menumorut
In the times of Trojan war even the Ionia was not colonized with Greeks. |
At the time before the Trojan war, Miletus on the coast of Ionia
existed.It was a Mycenean colony and trading post.In the Hettite
records the name of the city is referred to as Milawanda.
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Posted By: borudjin
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 05:24
no the funny part thing is that magna means large and you know you have an idea of a megali ellada, megali idea. and it does kind of go together coz panhellinists like to consider sicily all the way to iran as greek coz alexander conquered it.
and u know what existed in italy before the latins? haha turkic speaking nomads, like the etruscs, who werent greek or thracians( who i wont talk about for now).
hey dya guys know about the lemnos inscriptions?
magna grecia?hmmmm......... i guess the southern parts of italy which were colonised by greek merchants. most of the southern italian coast, napoli( nea poli, if you think about it).
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Posted By: borudjin
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 05:27
i shoulda been a linguist. napoli(nea poli how genius). anyway the spartans allied with syracuse i also know and beat athens and stuff.
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Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 08:39
Ellin gongratulations for your post
Continue this way
I don't know if Calabria and Kalavryta are connected in any way,but its an ineresting issue to find the etymologies.
Now,borudjin,because you are new here you don't have to impress us with your ideas,say something usefull and let these turkoetruscan staff for elsewhere.
Can you say which "panhellenist" said you that we consider Iran greek? .
i guess the southern parts of italy which were colonised by greek merchants.
These few merchants must had many children...
napoli(nea poli how genius)
Are you linguist?
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Posted By: alexISS
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 08:49
Originally posted by borudjin
no the funny part thing is that magna means large and you know you have an idea of a megali ellada, megali idea. and it does kind of go together coz panhellinists like to consider sicily all the way to iran as greek coz alexander conquered it. |
Alexander didn't conquer Sicily
Originally posted by borudjin
and u know what existed in italy before the latins? haha turkic speaking nomads, like the etruscs, who werent greek or thracians( who i wont talk about for now). |
You said it yourself, "ha ha"
Originally posted by borudjin
hey dya guys know about the lemnos inscriptions? |
I guess they are written in Etruscan, which of course is Turkish
------------- "Military justice is to justice what military music is to music" Groucho
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Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 09:02
A relative of mine allege that our family has roots from Calabria.
Especially, he allege that our ancestor was the family of Saint Nile (the younger) the Calabros from Rosano.
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Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 09:08
Originally posted by borudjin
and u know what existed in italy before the latins? haha turkic speaking nomads, like the etruscs, who werent greek or thracians( who i wont talk about for now).
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If you are interest about the origin of Italiotes here is good topic to read
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15371&KW=etruscan - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15371&KW=etruscan
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Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 12:04
Do you have any clues about the population of the colonies?? e.g. Croton sent 100.000 army against Sybaris. Dionesus of Suracuse offered to give 250.000 soldiers for the expendition in Asia,after Isocrate asked him but Alexander was the man who did it... Suracuse is claimed that had a population of 300.000 citizens.
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 12:12
Originally posted by Patrinos
napoli(nea poli how genius) Are you linguist?
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The first settlers in the the today Napoli were Greek sailors sailors from Rhodes who founded the merchant colony called Parhenope on tiny Megaride island and the neighbouring Pizzofalcone hill.Around the 5th BC the area was occupied by inhabitants of theGreek colony of Cuma who displaced the original inhabitants to the east where they founded Neapolis (meaning "New City" in the Greek language). The original Parthenope came to be called, simply, "old city",Palea-polis.
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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 15:09
3. The latest style was Late Helladic III B with a small number of exemplars of Late Helladic III C. See W. Taylour, Mycenaean Pottery in Italy and Adjacent Areas (Cambridge, 1958) p. 74; H.-G. Buchholz, “Agäische Funde und Kultureinflüsse in der Randgebieten des Mittelmeers,” Archäologischer Anzieger 89 (1974) pp. 343, 345, 346, 349-350. Thapsos, near Syracuse and Agrigento, are the two main find spots. |
There were cultural contacts. Saying it was a continuity of Greek colonists in Italy between Mychenean and later period I don't think is good. Such a long history would lead to a complete Hellenization of Italy which didn't existed.
The important and huge migrations trully happened after 8th century BC, so big that the Byzantine Greeks found there a people "eredi ellenofoni"..... |
You think that Hellenophones remained in Italy during the Roman empire?
During the Early Middle Ages, following the Gothic War that was disastrous for the region, new waves of Byzantine Christian Greeks came to Magna Graecia from Greece and Asia Minor, as Southern Italy remained loosely governed by the Eastern Roman Empire until the advent, first of the Lombards then of the Normans. Moreover, without a doubt, the Byzantines found in Southern Italy people of common cultural root, the Greek-speaking eredi ellenofoni of Magna Graecia.
Although most of the Greek inhabitants of Southern Italy became entirely Italianized (as Paestum had already been in the 4th century BC) and no longer spoke Greek, remarkably a small Griko-speaking minority still exists today in Calabria and mostly in Salento.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia - Magna Graecia - Wikipedia
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 17:32
There was a documentary 2 years ago about Calabria. Though they were speaking a dialect the journalists had a fluent conversasion with the people there.
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SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
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Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 18:11
Originally posted by Menumorut
[quote]The important and huge migrations trully happened after 8th century BC, so big that the Byzantine Greeks found there a people "eredi ellenofoni"..... |
You think that Hellenophones remained in Italy during the Roman empire?
During the Early Middle Ages, following the Gothic War that was disastrous for the region, new waves of Byzantine Christian Greeks came to Magna Graecia from Greece and Asia Minor, as Southern Italy remained loosely governed by the Eastern Roman Empire until the advent, first of the Lombards then of the Normans. Moreover, without a doubt, the Byzantines found in Southern Italy people of common cultural root, the Greek-speaking eredi ellenofoni of Magna Graecia.
Although most of the Greek inhabitants of Southern Italy became entirely Italianized (as Paestum had already been in the 4th century BC) and no longer spoke Greek, remarkably a small Griko-speaking minority still exists today in Calabria and mostly in Salento.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia - Magna Graecia - Wikipedia
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Menomurot if you understood what you posted you wouldn't do it Your sourse say that untill Normans about 1100 AD the population spoke Greek.And during byzantine times new waves of Greeks migrated there....
Yes Filliper i've seen a documantary about Grecanous(in ERT3),with beautiful people,villages and language.The Grecanoi from Calimera were the "protagonists".
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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 03:32
Your sourse say that untill Normans about 1100 AD the population spoke Greek.And during byzantine times new waves of Greeks migrated there.... |
Do you consider that Greek language didn't ceased to be spoken in Italy during the Roman empire?
The medieval Greek colonization of Italy was anterior 1100. How can you play with words such way?
Rome was Greek speaking in 7th century in a great measure (Greek was oficial language) due to the dependence of Italy to the Byzance.
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Posted By: alexISS
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 07:09
Originally posted by borudjin
also, my modern greek teacher(last year) who´s a member of nationalist panhellinist organisations associated with the cypriot DiSy party stated to me that the greeks´ megali idea also talks about restoring alexander´s empire, therefore iran should be greek once more. |
There are Turk nationalists who say that the globe should be Turkish, so what?
Trust me, the only ones who still talk about "megali idea" are Turks, you really fear you're gonna lose Istanbul or Asia Minor?
------------- "Military justice is to justice what military music is to music" Groucho
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Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 09:45
Just a reminder to the participants of this thread: keep the discussion as scholarly and objective as possible. Please refrain from exhibiting any nationalist propagandistic tendency. If you fail to do that, this thread will be closed.
Borudjin has been banned for trolling.
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Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 10:20
I think that could be given from administration group some chance to Borudjin because he was the first nationalist Cypriot (as he was claiming) and he didn t have the time to give us a full view of his ideas.
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Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 11:29
The non-related to the original issue posts of the last page were removed. Guys stick to the topic about Magna Graecia and let aside non-related Cyprus issues.
------------- A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 12:23
Originally posted by Antioxos
I think that could be given from administration group some chance to Borudjin because he was the first nationalist Cypriot (as he was claiming) and he didn t have the time to give us a full view of his ideas. |
Borudjin was banned not because he's a Cypriot. He's banned because he's a troller.
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 13:21
Originally posted by Antioxos
I think that could be given from administration
group some chance to Borudjin because he was the first nationalist
Cypriot (as he was claiming) and he didn t have the time to give
us a full view of his ideas. |
I agree Borudjin seemed like an interesting personality. One rarely
meets a Kazak Cypriot with a leninist ideology that speaks both Greek
and Turkish.
------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com
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Posted By: nikodemos
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 04:26
Originally posted by Patrinos
Do you have any clues about the population of the colonies?? e.g. Croton sent 100.000 army against Sybaris. Dionesus
of Suracuse offered to give 250.000 soldiers for the expendition in
Asia,after Isocrate asked him but Alexander was the man who did it... Suracuse is claimed that had a population of 300.000 citizens.
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Patrinos,is it true that Croton had so many hoplites?The number 100,000
seems a very big number,especially if one bears in mind that not even
Athens could field such an army in a single campaign during the
peloponessian War. 5.000 Athenian hoplites,about a thousand
auxiliaries(archers,slingers,etc.) and 150 triremes was the Athenian
force that invaded Sicily.Each trireme had a crew of about 200 men.Thus
the whole expedition force reached almost 40.000 Athenian citizens from
the city of Athens,the town-port of Pireas and the rural areas of
Attica.We could estimate the population of Syracuse in 415 B.C. if we
knew the size of the Syracusan army that defeatd the Athenians and
their allies.
At the outbreak of the Peloponnesian war Athens had 150.000 free people(adult males,free women and children) and 100.000 slaves.
According to a book that i have, the population of Syracuse in 415 B.C.
was about 10.000.The total population of Sicily is said to have been
the same year about 300.000-350.000.I will search to find more on the
subject.
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Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 08:37
the population of Syracuse in 415 B.C. was about 10.000
Only the http://www.planetware.com/syracuse/greek-theater-i-si-sypgt.htm - greek theater of Syracuse had 15000 sits,
I found that number about Syracuse's population in here: http://www.bestofsicily.com/siracusa.htm - syracuse
And the indeed possibly exaggerated number of Croton's army here:
Sybaris was the rival of Croton until 510 BCE, when Croton sent an army of one hundred thousand men, commanded by the boxer Milo, against Sybaris and destroyed it.
http://www.answers.com/topic/crotone
Another example is that in 337 BC Corinthians under Timoleon brought around 60.000 immigrants from Greece.
(8th page, http://archaeology.stanford.edu/MountPolizzo/handbookPDF/MPHandbook5.pdf - Brief history of Sicily by Stanford . )
Numbers like 300.000 for the whole Sicily seems too small.
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Posted By: nikodemos
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 12:45
Patrinos,i think you are right when you say that the numbers are too small.
I found more info in the Cambridge Ancient History.
According to Diodoros Sikeliotis the second largest city of Sicily was
Acragas,with a population of20.000 citizens and 200.000 foreigners in
406 B.C.Syracuse was the largest city in Sicily so the total population
together with the slaves and the foreigners could have been more than
220.000.
The forces of Syracuse (not her allies) that defeated the Athenians were 5.000 hoplites and 1.500 cavalry.
This means that there were at least 6.500 Syracusan free men and
citizens able to bear arms.Considering that these wee only the
adult male population then how many were the elderly,the women and the
children?Then one must include also the foreigners and the slaves.
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Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 03:41
I have been requested by Patrinos, in a private message, to express an opinion as Italian forumer about this thread and precisely:
"You could say the italian public opinion on the relations between the Southern Italians with the Greeks.We say here in Greece an italian phrase "una faccia una razza" about us and Italians but I've told that it is used by North Italians to describe (disparagingly) the "dark" Southerns who look alike the other "darks" across the Ionian sea...is that true?"
I live in far north-eastern Italy and I know very well the sentence you cited, or better said "una faza una raza". I've always believed that it was a Venetian saying, because of the strong links between Venice and the Levant, Byzantium above all.
I can't exclude that somebody here or elsewhere uses this saying in a disparaging way, but I've always heard it nicely.
"Which is the "official" view on the issue of the Greek colonisation?"
As far as I know, this is not a controversial issue in Italy, so there is no need for an "official" view about it.
It's peacefully recognized that Greek colonies in Southern Italy had a huge influence on other peoples living in Italian peninsula.
"And can you provide any informations about the latinisation of the South espesially after the Normans?? "
Unfortunely I'm not an expert about this issue and I could only google to get infos ...
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Posted By: Ellin
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 05:23
Italy rediscovers Greek heritage
By David Willey
BBC correspondent in Rome
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Hundreds of rare and beautiful pieces are on display
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A world-class archaeological exhibition opened this week in Calabria, in the toe of Italy.
Its subject is Magna Graecia, or Greater Greece - the
name given to parts of southern Italy colonised by the ancient Greeks
2,500 years ago.
The migrations of modern Europe are nothing new.
But for the ancient Greeks, southern Italy was their America.
Long before the Roman empire flourished, they sailed west in search of new lands.
They settled around the hospitable coastline of Calabria
and Sicily, dominating local tribes, building huge temples to their
gods and founding Greek-speaking colonies.
However, their cities and culture were later destroyed
by the Romans. Only very recently have archaeologists been able to
reconstruct their history.
It is a jigsaw puzzle with many pieces still missing.
Ancient treasures
Salvatore Settis of the University of Pisa, one of
Italy's leading archaeologists, has brought together in Catanzaro,
Calabria's regional capital, more than 800 pieces of sculpture in
marble and terracotta from Magna Graecia.
They were originally dug up or recovered from the sea
all around the coasts of southern Italy, but are now scattered in
museums and private collections around Europe.
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MAGNA GRAECIA
Greek settlers arrived in 8th Century BC
Founded colonies among small coastal settlements
Built an important centre of Greek civilisation
Cities began to decline after 5th Century
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There are also gold and silver coins, ancient maps,
books, inscriptions and Greek vases, as well as portrait busts and
votive offerings to Greek gods whose shrines once dotted the Italian
landscape.
Some of Europe's finest Greek temples are still to be seen at Paestum, south of Naples.
The area around them has delivered up some stunning
archaeological discoveries, including wall paintings, elaborate bronze
containers for honey, wine and oil, and inscriptions which provide
important clues about this now almost vanished world.
Two large sheets of bronze, known as the Tablets of
Heraclea, dug up in 1732 and now in the Naples museum, are also on show
in Catanzaro.
They bear ancient inscriptions on one side in Greek and, on the other, a text dating from several hundred years later in Latin.
They provided some of the first documentary evidence
about the lives of the Greek-speaking ancient inhabitants of this part
of the Mediterranean.
Regeneration hopes
Mr Settis told me that as a native of Calabria, he had
first become fascinated by an unexpected legacy of Magna Graecia - the
large number of ancient Greek words that have survived more than 2,000
years in his local dialect.
This figure of a woman with a lotus flower dates from about 500BC
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"It was English aristocrats who first became infatuated
with the Greek sculptures dug up in southern Italy in the late 18th
Century.
"Your consul in Naples, Sir William Hamilton, was one of the first serious collectors of Greek art from Italy," Mr Settis said.
"Italian archaeologists and collectors began to get
interested during the 19th and 20th centuries. The memory of this
long-forgotten world is now being resurrected."
Catanzaro, situated right down in the toe of Italy, is a
rather dull and ugly provincial capital built on two sides of a deep
gorge, and does not normally figure on Italian art city tours.
However, the local authorities are hoping that foreign
visitors who come to visit the new exhibition may also be interested in
seeing the recently uncovered remains nearby of the city of Scolacium.
That was the city the Romans built when they conquered
Magna Graecia, and founded their colonies on the ruins of former Greek
settlements.
The house of a former big landowner has been converted
into a small museum with some fine pieces of Roman sculpture on show,
dug up during recent excavations.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4116006.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4116006.stm
------------- "Grk ppl r anarchic & difficlt 2 tame.4 this reasn we must strike deep in2 thr lang,relgn,cult& hist resrvs, so that we cn neutrlz thr ability 2 develp,distinguish
themslvs/ 2 prevail"..up urs Kisngr
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Posted By: Ellin
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 05:38
The Italian South is also known as Magna Graecia (Greater Greece)
for good reason; it and Greece have formed part of the same cultural
space since at least 700 BCE. It was at that point when the first
settlers from Greece arrived on the Italian shores, establishing
colonies and creating trading posts that brought them closer to the
indigenous civilizations, such as the Etruscans.
That region was also a stronghold of the Orthodox Christian church for
a long time (in some cases until the 17th Century) and so through
traditions, faith and trade the two regions were always very close to
each other and people moved across the rather narrow Straits with ease.
It is within this context that one should view the existence of
two communities that speak two linguistic idioms that are similar to
each other and to Greek. Griko, the language spoken in Salento (Puglia
region), and Grecanico, the one spoken in Calabria are so close as to
allow people from both to understand each other without particular
problems, even though the communities of Salento and Calabria have
almost no contact between them.
It is taken for granted that their speakers are descendants of Greeks
who arrived in the region in the past. There is a big ongoing
discussion about the period when those ancestors arrived from Greece.
Some people consider that time to be the one of the original colonizers
of Ancient Greece (ca. 700 BCE) and others a later wave that left
during the late Middle Ages (ca. 1400). It is thought that people
arrived on both occasions, but it is debated if by the Middle Ages the
use of Greek had completely died out or not. Due to the existence of
many Ancient Greek words in those two languages though, it must be
considered that the former opinion is more correct. http://www.rootsworld.com/griko/ - http://www.rootsworld.com/griko/
Then, during the seventies, indigenous cultures all over Europe
faced something of a renaissance, in regions as diverse as Brittany,
Scotland, Ireland, the Basque Region, Corsica and Sardegna. This was
happening in Italy as well, a country where local traditions and local
linguistic idioms are very strong and where the South was beginning to
assert itself against the traditional power center of the North. This
movement was evident in the Grico community, with young people showing
a greater desire to learn the language and use it, and by a new wave of
ethnomusicologists who came to record the old ways. People, and later
private institutions and the Greek State, also got interested in those
"long-forgotten brethren."
The two communities have recently been recognized as official
linguistic minorities by the Italian State, granting them some rights,
such as use of their language in signs, in elementary education and in
radio.
Grecìa Salentina consists today of nine villages with a total
population of around 40,000 people, of which about 25,000 are Griko
speakers. In Calabria about 9,000 people populate the nine villages
that constitute the Grecano region. http://www.rootsworld.com/griko/ - http://www.rootsworld.com/griko/
^^ Although figures from 2001, there is still a Greek presence there, so Magna Graecia's Greek character, is not all lost.
------------- "Grk ppl r anarchic & difficlt 2 tame.4 this reasn we must strike deep in2 thr lang,relgn,cult& hist resrvs, so that we cn neutrlz thr ability 2 develp,distinguish
themslvs/ 2 prevail"..up urs Kisngr
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