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Turkish-Azeri-Turkmen Turks cultural conn

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14662
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Topic: Turkish-Azeri-Turkmen Turks cultural conn
Posted By: Bulldog
Subject: Turkish-Azeri-Turkmen Turks cultural conn
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 07:31
Despite being seperated by thousands of km, Turks of Turkemnistan-Azerbaycan-Turkey have alot in common, historically, linguistically and culturally.

Oguz Turkish literature includes the famous Book of Dede Korkut which was UNESCO's 2000 literacy work of the year, as well as the Oguznama and "Koroglu" epics which are part of the literacy history of Azerbaijanis, Turks of Turkey and Turkmens. The modern and classical literature of Azerbaijan, Turkey and central Asia are also considered the Oghuz literature, since it has been produced by their descendants.

The Book of Dede Korkut is an invaluable collection of epics and stories, bearing witness to the language, the way of life, religions, traditions and social norms of the Oguz Turks in Azerbaijan, Turkey and central Asia.     

Karacaoglan is another "epic" shared by the ancestors of the Western Oguz Turks. Karacaoglan began in Turkmenistan travelled across Turkish speaking areas of Iran to Azerbaycan then to Turkey. He's loved in all three areas and his poems, works and literature has been kept alive and is ever popular today.

Among other names is obviously the famous Nasreddin Hodja who is known now pretty much across the world for his fantastic stories.

Then there are Carpets-Kilims, there are motives which are the same and the same weaving methods, this is something the Turks bought with them from the Turkmenistan area.

There is so much more, the Akhal-Teke Turkmen horses, gastronomically Yogurt, Cheese making, Pastry making, Bread making, Kebab types etc etc, clothes wise- Uc Eteks, Turkic style dress of Khans, Kaftans etc Jewellry making-metal working, Musical instruments, Singing styles, the tribal names and stamps, treating woman with more respect and higher status then the neighbouring people's................so much more it could go on and on and on.....

Historically the connection is basic historical knowledge and accepted internationally, linguistically todays Official Turkmen is easily read by Turkey-Azeri Turks, Turkey-Azeri Turks watch each other's Tv shows and can fully understand each other.

    

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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine




Replies:
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 11:18
Art uniting peoples


An exhibition of the works of the painters from the countries, the members of the TURKSOY International Organisation for Development of Turkic Culture and Art, was opened in Ashgabat. The large-scale exhibition arranged in the State Academy of Fine Arts of Turkmenistan was organised by the TURKSOY Organisation in collaboration with the Ministry of Culture and Broadcasting Activities of Turkmenistan.

The ‘Turkic world’ occupies a considerable part of the Eurasian continent. According to the demographic data, about 200 million Turkic people united by the commonality of culture, language and spiritual values live all over the world. The rich Turk world’s spiritual heritage, the Turkic subculture developed over the millennia, undoubtedly, serve as an integral part of world civilisation. With the view to preserve and develop the unique heritage, to revive the traditions of cultural exchange among the kindred peoples and to establish fruitful dialogue among peoples of good will TURKSOY was established on initiative of six independent Turkish-speaking countries: Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Turkey and Uzbekistan in 1992.

The TURKSOY Organisation aims its activities at developing co-operations in the area of science, education and culture through holding the international creative laboratories (since 1998), in particular. The Ashgabat exhibition includes over 90 works of the painters from different countries who took part in the annual forums. Among them are P. Garriev, M. Khojaguliev, R. Berdiev, V. Chariev, R. Muhammedov, K. Nurliev, I. Ishanguliev and O. Lallikov.

The exhibition reflects the idea that the process of creating a work of art is the permanent search for a new way. Basing on the century-old experience and original traditions the painters expands the ordinary borders of colour, form and space. The exhibition includes the worlds created in various genres and techniques varying from classical portraits to abstract compositions, lyric sceneries to allegories and collages. Thus, the exhibition vividly presents the tendencies of development of fine arts in modern Turkic world in all its diversity of the trends, styles and techniques.

The representatives of the Ministry of Culture and Broadcasting Activities of Turkmenistan and the public organisations, the diplomats accredited to Turkmenistan and the journalists, the cultural workers and students took part in the opening ceremony. Greeting all those present the TURKSOY Vice Director General Mr. Mustafa Balcik said that it gave him great pleasure to open the exhibition on the eve of the wonderful spring holiday – Nowruz that united all brotherly peoples all over the Turkic world. The honorary guest expressed sincere gratitude to the President of Turkmenistan for an opportunity to hold the exhibition in Ashgabat, in the splendid gallery of the State Academy of Fine Arts of Turkmenistan and thanked Saparmurat Niyazov for his permanent concern and support for maintenance and development of the spiritual ties among the peoples. The guest emphasized that Turkmenistan had gained the remarkable achievements in all spheres including the sphere of culture and arts that was proved by the talented works of the Turkmen painters who actively participated in the TURKSOY creative laboratories and aroused intensive interest to their creative work in many countries.

Mr. Mustafa Balcik said that independent Turkmenistan played an important role in the TURSOY’ activities taking an active part in the events held by the organisation. The international folk music festivals in memory of Ashik Aydyn Pier and the exhibition presenting the works of applied and decorative art of the TURKSOY member-countries were held in Ashgabat in 1993-1994. The honorary guest said that the TURKSOY International Organisation would promote popularising the great cultural and historical heritage and spiritual traditions of the Turkmen people throughout the world. As a token of profound respect and gratitude Mr. Mustafa Balcik presented a hand-made gild dish on behalf of the TURKSOY Direction to Turkmenistan’s representatives.

The exhibition will work till March 15. The people and guests of Ashgabat will see the talented works of the students, the graduates and teachers of the Academy of Fine Arts and the Turkmen famous painters as well.

State Informational Agency of Turkmenistan (TDH)


http://www.turkmenistan.gov.tm/people/pep_kult/110306_eng.htm - http://www.turkmenistan.gov.tm/people/pep_kult/110306_eng.htm
 
 
(Unlike another "individual" on this forum who likes to invent wild stories, divide and hate on anything he can and then shamefully pretend that all of Turkmenistan supports him, here is the REAL views comming out of Turkmenistan, instead of his mumbo jumby here official material is used)
 
!!!AGZI BIRLIK!!!


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 11:31
http://www.byegm.gov.tr/YAYINLARIMIZ/NEWSPOT/2001/sept-oct/n5.htm"> 
The monument to a great Turkmen poet and philosopher Garajaoglan built in Ashgabat

Yesterday, the ceremony of opening the monument to Garajaoglan, a great Turkmen poet and philosopher whose literary legacy is an integral part of the treasury of national and world cultures was held in Ashgabat. The poet’s 400th jubilee brought together numerous admirers of his talent and guests from foreign countries. The magnificent monument, a man-made symbol of the era of national revival commemorated Garajaoglan, a patriot and singer of the native land.

The high-ranking officials and the members of the Mejlis, the cabinet ministers, the representatives of the national ministries and departments, the members of the public organisations, the diplomats accredited to Ashgabat, the cultural workers and scientists, the students of the national educational establishments took part in the ceremony. The participants of the International Conference “Ruhnama and the Literary Legacy of Garajaoglan in the System of Universally Shared Spiritual Values” participated in the ceremony to pay their tribute of respect to the great poet. The bronze statue depicts Garagaoglan holding in the right hand a dutar, the tried friend and companion in the poet’s wanderings, and in the left hand a tulip as a symbol of imperishable beauty. The fine neck of the musical instrument is crowned with a dove – a symbol of peace and concord. The lines from the poet’s verses are engraved on the marble pedestal.

The monument was designed by Saragt Babaev. The famous Turkmen sculptor tried to convey not only the poet’s appearance but also the essence of his personality. The specialists of the Miras Turkmen National Centre of Cultural Heritage assisted the sculptor in creating the image of the great son of the Turkmen nation. The specialists prepared the book of the poet’s verses for publication.

The wonderful flowers laid to the monument that will henceforth adorn the Turkmen capital city serve as the tribute of love and respect to Garajaoglan who devoted his talent and life to the native people.

State Information Agency of Turkmenistan (TDH)
 
 
Dedicated to the 400th jubilee of Garaja oglan
/23.03.06/


This year the people of Turkmenistan is going to celebrated the 400th jubilee of a great Turkmen philosopher and poet, an inspired ozan (a singer) of the Turkmen land – Garaja oglan. His literary heritage is a significant and important part of the Turkmen people’s spiritual treasury and national millennium-old culture. The poet’s philosophical and lyrical works created over three centuries ago and glorifying devotion to the Motherland, beauty of native land, moral purity and riches of the Turkmen people’s spiritual world are still topical and poetically fresh. The poet’s cherished dream of the free and powerful Turkmen state came true during the years of independence.

Nowadays, the inconceivable opportunities for studying the cultural heritage of the past centuries and developing many-sided international scientific exchange are provided due to the policy of national spiritual revival acrid on in Turkmenistan. The international conference dedicated to the literary heritage of Garaja oglan is another vivid evidence of that. The conference will be held in Ashgabat on May 2-3. The first week of May is announced the Week of Garaja oglan in this connection.

The conference is to make a profound contribution to the studies of the poet’s creative activity and popularization of the Turkmen people’s unique cultural heritage, an integral part of the world cultural treasure. The Ministry of Culture and Broadcasting Activities, the Miras Turkmen National Centre of Cultural Heritage and the National Institute of Manuscripts of Turkmenistan are to organise and hold the conference.

The conference aroused particular interest among the Turkmen specialists and foreign scientists as well. The cultural workers and scientists from Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Holland, Turkey and Germany confirmed their participation in the conference. It is expected that the historians-orientalists, scholars from China, Great Britain, Iran, Hungary, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan and Russian will take part in the conference. The specialists of Miras Turkmen National Centre of Cultural Heritage and the National Institute of Manuscripts of Turkmenistan are preparing the new collection (divana) of the poems by Garaja oglan for publication. The collection will include over 200 poems. Undoubtedly, the monument to Garaja oglan to be erected in Ashgabat serves as a tribute to the great poet.

The guests will visit the poet’s native settlement in the Balkan Velayat. Numerous cultural and artistic contests dedicated to the poet’s life and creative work will be organised within the framework of the cultural programme specially prepared for the Week of Garaja oglan. During the concerts held throughout Turkmenistan the bagshis will perform the songs based on the poet’s verses and musical compositions the people created as a token of their love and respect to the philosopher. The image of the legendary pilgrim who glorifies love to the native land and the beautiful image of his beloved in the eternity of his course of life will revive in the productions staged at the theatres of Ashgabat.

State Information Agency of Turkmenistan (TDH)
 
A pilgrim signing about eternal love
/02.04.06/


This year Turkmenistan celebrates the 400th jubilee of a legendary Turkmen poet and musician. In Turkmenistan to commemorate the remarkable date the first week of May was announced the Week of Garaja oglan whose creative activities is of particular interest to researchers, literary critics, writers and playwrights, cinematographers and musicians, readership worldwide. Nevertheless, there are few established facts about the poet’s life only that he had to leave his native settlement and to pilgrimage. It is supposed that Garaja oglan was born in 1606 and died in 1679. However, there is no exact data. Different sources name different settlements where the poet could live. It is only known that after leaving the native settlement he came to Anatolia, visited Egypt and Tripoli. It is supposed that he was buried in the small place called Hill of Garaja oglan, in the settlement Chukur, Ichel region.

The studies in the poet’s literary heritage attest that Garaja oglan knew very well Oriental poetry of that time, the works of his predecessors and widely used the folk poetic traditions, the specific elements of folk genres in his works. His poems are bound up with everyday life and traditional lifestyle of the Turkmen tribes who resided Minor Asia in that period. The poet’s works are well known in other countries having left a distinguished trace in development of literatures of many Turkic peoples.

Separation from the Motherland and nostalgia are the emotional burdens in the poet’s creative activity that are especially obvious in his poems about nature and love.

Garaja oglan’s poetry reflects the truth of life than poetic idealization and creative fantasies. Despite the uneasy course of life full of hardship and suffering Garaja oglan sees the source of love for life in the power of true love, beauty and harmony of nature, best human qualities. His poem “To live wisely!” serves as an appeal to people.

Unlike other poets, Garaja oglan’s contemporaries, his creative work was not subject to influence of divan poetry widely spread literary style remarkable for ornate elevation. His poems are written in the imaginative and melodious language understandable for ordinary people. Creative interpretation of the traditions of folk poetry created his individual poetical style. Everyone understands and likes his poems. His lyrical verses adorn the repertoire of the famous Turkmen bagshis till present times.

Garaja oglan’s poetry penetrated into all levels of ordinary people, his poems composed the repertoire of Turkmen bagshis and gained popularity as not only written literary monument but also a vivid page of the history of the national art of signing and music. The studies of Garaja oglan’s creative heritage of started in 1920. To date, about 500 his works are known.

Aydogdy KURBANOV,
Senior scientist of the State Institute of Cultural Heritage of the Peoples of Turkmenistan, Central Asia and the East under the President of Turkmenistan
 
 
A BARD’S LIFE OF LOVE: KARACAOĞLAN
 
http://www.byegm.gov.tr/YAYINLARIMIZ/NEWSPOT/2001/sept-oct/n5.htm
 
 
Garacaoglan mountain statue turbe(grave) Turkey
 
 
GarajaOglan, read, loved and an epic name in Turkmenistan, TUrkey, Azerbaycan.


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 11:35
The Ruhubelent chagalar wins the gold medal at the international children’s festival
/16.06.06/


Enchanting the jury and audience the Ruhubelent chagalar children’s folk dancing group won the gold medal at the 12th International Children’s Art Festival among the Turkic-speaking countries. The Art Festival was held in Turkey on May 30- June 11. The children’s groups from 40 countries worldwide participated in the artistic contest developing the ties of friendship and mutual understanding among the peoples bound up with the common historical and cultural traditions. The Turk Dunyasy Chagalar Turkish Children’s Fund organised the forum.

The Ruhubelent chagalar children’s group organised in 2002 under the Ministry of Oil and Gas Industry and Mineral Resources of Turkmenistan is very popular in our country and abroad as well. The group performed the concerts in the Ruhiyet Palace in Ashgabat and participated in the Altyn asyryn altyn nesilleri Children’s Festival and other creative contests. In 2003 the Ruhubelent chagalar group took the first prize in the Garashsyzlygyn merjen dyaneleri Contest, in 2004 it won the diploma of the International Children’s Festival in Turkey and the Gulbaba Akyev Prize last year. The gold medal of the Children’s Festival in Istanbul replenished the young artists’ accomplishments.

In Turkey the young artists Ashgabat performed some wonderful turns including the the Ruhubelent chagalar and Shatlyk dancing compositions and Elinde yalygy elpecelendi folk dancing composition.

State News Agency of Turkmenistan (TDH)


TURMENISTAN AZERBAYCAN TURKIYE UC DOWLET BIR MILLET


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 12:06
Although Manas is of Kiptchak origin, he's famous all over Asia. So is KorOghlu. Ozbeks also have got KorOghlu too. Just like you think these are Oghuz and therefore shows the similarity, Ozbeks admire KorOghlu too.

The musical instruments quite vary in northern places. Just compare 'salyr yoly' (way of Salyr) in playing Tamdra. I hope you're familiar with classic instruments. I play Tamdra. Even the way we play  are different, let alone for 'maqam's and so forth.
 
I've lived in Iran for more than 2 years. Just like you think Nasreddin Hoja is of Turkish origin, Iranians think he was Iranian. That's why they use 'Molla Nasreddin'.
 
Northern carpet patterns have got shamanistic prints while Turkish seems to be closer to 'Tabriz' carpets in which mostly symbols like 'tree', 'flower', etc (symbols of a green land) are observed. Don't try to teach a Turkmen about carpet,...
 
... and horses. AqalTeke is what? Still lives in Turkey?
 
You don't have also 'kumys'. You haven't got 'qawurtmach', 'tatar', 'qatlamaq', etc. These are different kinds of bread which you haven't got. You also haven't got 'borok' and 'pishmek'.
 
The tribal names are QUITE, VERY VERY different. You had 24 tribes anytime in the history. We had 9. None of you 24 tribes, are observed among 9 Oghuz tribes.
 
The most correct Turkmen is Salyr. Tell me if you could understand even a word out of a few I wrote for you.
 


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 15:39
Although Manas is of Kiptchak origin, he's famous all over Asia. So is KorOghlu. Ozbeks also have got KorOghlu too. Just like you think these are Oghuz and therefore shows the similarity, Ozbeks admire KorOghlu too.
 
Obviously, all are Turks afterall its natural for these to be very popular among Turks. Koroglu is native to Turkmenistan-Azerbaycan-Turkey, Ozbeks are Turks its natural for them to also like Koroglu as they can understand and bond to it easier. Sher Navoi is a literary legend and claimed by Ozbek Turks, he's loved and has influenced all Turks in literary circles.
 
 
I've lived in Iran for more than 2 years. Just like you think Nasreddin Hoja is of Turkish origin, Iranians think he was Iranian. That's why they use 'Molla Nasreddin'.
 
Your unbelievable, its internationally accepted he was a Turk, there was a Unesco year dedicated to the great Nasreddin in 1996. His tomb is in "Akshehir" Turkey, he was from Central Anatolia, a Turk.
 
I don't "think" he was a Turk, its a fact, I've never heard anything as riduclous as him being Iranian.
 
He is also loved and his stories told in Arabia, Arabs don't try and decieve thereselves and call him an Arab, they know he was a Turk, so do people in the Balkans and Caucous.
 

Celebration of anniversaries

The General Conference,

Having taken note of 146 EX/Decision 9.2 and 147 EX/Decision 8.7,

Decides that:

(a) UNESCO shall be associated in 1996-1997 with the following celebrations:

(xxix) seven hundredth anniversary of the death of the Turkish humorist Nasreddin

Hoca, Hodja ( Nasruddin, Goha) (1996);

 
http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0010/001018/101803E.pdf#search=%22Supports%20OAU%20Resolution%20CM%2FRES.1603%20%28LXII%29%20%20Nasreddin%20%22 - http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0010/001018/101803E.pdf#search=%22Supports%20OAU%20Resolution%20CM%2FRES.1603%20(LXII)%20%20Nasreddin%20%22
 
 
 
His tomb in Aksehir Turkey.
 
 
 
 
Nasreddin Hodja in Ozbekistan
 
 
The Turkish Jester by Hoca Nasreddin
 
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:Help_on_Bibliographic_Record_Page#Table:_Bibliographic_Record - Bibliographic Record
Creator http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/n#a6564 - Nasreddin, Hoca
Translator http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/b#a4383 - Borrow, George Henry, 1803-1881
Title The Turkish Jester
or, The Pleasantries of Cogia Nasr Eddin Effendi
 
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16244 - http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16244

Nasreddin Hodja

Tales of the Turkish Trickster

D. L. Ashliman
 
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/hodja.html - http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/hodja.html
 
http://www.cs.biu.ac.il/~schiff/Net/front.html - http://www.cs.biu.ac.il/~schiff/Net/front.html
 
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/197103/a.man.of.many.names.htm - http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/197103/a.man.of.many.names.htm
 
 
 
Northern carpet patterns have got shamanistic prints while Turkish seems to be closer to 'Tabriz' carpets in which mostly symbols like 'tree', 'flower', etc (symbols of a green land) are observed. Don't try to teach a Turkmen about carpet,...
 
There are Turkmen carpets in Turkey which have the Shamnist prints, please research this you'll be amazed.
 
... and horses. AqalTeke is what? Still lives in Turkey?
 
Ofcourse and from there it spread to England and created the "English Thoroughbread"
 
The AqalTeke is one of the most majestic horses in the world! a treasure.
 
These are different kinds of bread which you haven't got. You also haven't got 'borok' and 'pishmek'.
 
First, its not "I" don't I;m not from there but I know it well yes there is "Borok", "Pishmek",
 
The tribal names are QUITE, VERY VERY different. You had 24 tribes anytime in the history. We had 9. None of you 24 tribes, are observed among 9 Oghuz tribes.
 
The 24 tribes heavily populate Turkmenistan, there are the same tribes in Turkmenistan, Turkey and Azerbaycan. Your gonna say only in South and West but I have to point out the most populated area of Turkmenistan is this area.
 
The most correct Turkmen is Salyr.
 
That's subjective, the most correct is the official version.


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 15:40
Banners of the Turkmen-Ottoman Empire
/13.02.06/


In the 14th century a state playing the outstanding role in the fate of not only peoples of the Middle and Near East but also Northern Africa and Europe appeared on the world arena. It was the Turkmen-Ottoman state.

The great empire was founded by Ertogrul Beg and his son Osman Ghazi who moved from Merv to Asia Minor in the 13th century.

Speaking about the state symbols of the Turkmen-Otoman Empire it should be stressed that it was extremely diverse. Numerous totemic views of different Turkmen tribes united by the Osmanids were likely to influence them. It is difficult to say what symbols were depicted on the banners of the first Turkmen-Ottomans, as the initial period of the state is still shrouded in legends.

As the historia I. Amanliev notes, the first Ottomans had a green banner and later, when the small Turkmen begdom turned into the empire white and red flags were also used. At the same time the scientist A. Vitol cites a legend going that Ottoman Ghazi left only a cup, a spoon, a salt-cellar, several horses and banners made of red cloths.

Probably, such contradictions are caused by the fact that since ancient times the Turkmen states used all those colours. In the Middle Ages combination of read and green colours were popular among the Turkmen and with adoption of Islam black flags also became popular, as they symbolised fight for right religion.

There is no common opinion on the symbols of the Ottomans. In our opinion, it was also diverse. But crescent and star were the most preferable in the Turkmen-Ottoman state.

It is often asserted that the Turkmen borrowed those symbols from the traditionally Islamic countries. But the orthodox Islam recognised no symbols and the banners of the caliphates were of pure black colour without any symbols. Crescent and star are symbolic attributes of the ancient ancestors of the Turkmen. They were known in the territory of Turkmenistan from the Bronze Age.

Crosses as prototypes of star are widely present at many monuments of ancient Turkmenistan (Margush, Altyn-depe and others) and impositions of two crosses were solar symbols. That octagonal star reproduced the image of the ancient Turkic deity Tangry.

However, the lunar symbol was also widespread attesting to the lunar cult. The Temple of Moon was discovered at the Altyn-depe site where a gold bull’s head with a turquoise crescent on its forehead was found. With complexity of the world outlook Sun and Moon merged. It was most likely connected with formation of a new religion in the territory of our country, Zoroastrianism that greatly influenced other world religions – Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity and Islam. The scientific research proves that Southern Turkmenistan was the place of origin of the first world religion. The new symbols (moon-crescent and sun-star) symbolised not only day and night, darkness and light but also the notion of left (sun) and right (moon).

A stone plaquette discovered at Altyn-depe has depictions of sun-cross and moon-crescent. Two thousand years later the same symbols were favourite ones in the Parthian Empire in the territory of Southern Turkmenistan. There is an emblem in the form of crescent and octagonal star in many coins of the Parthian kings.

Basing on those data we can assert that those signs were ancient symbols of the Turkmen. In 1913 Y. Smirnov supposed that crescent was a dynastic symbol of the Turkmen in Asia Minor. Professor V. Thomsen also considered that crescent had been spread among the Turkmen before adoption of Islam. Academician V. Bartold describing the flag of the Turkmen-Ottoman Empire which crescent was embroidered on, wrote: “In any case crescent as a religious symbol being to the mosques of the same importance like cross for the Christian churches was characteristic not for Islam as a whole but specially for the Turkish-Ottoman Islam.”

The Turkmen played a great role in saving the Muslim religion uniting the Islamic countries, putting an end to bloody wars between different trends of Islam and liquidating the threat of intervention of the European Crusaders to the East. The Ottoman sultans were not only secular rulers but also spiritual leaders of Islam. They became possessors of all Islamic shrines and in their campaigns against the European countries they carried state flags and the sacred banner of the Prophet Mohammad. It is not surprising that the Turkmen symbols of crescent and star became associated with the Islamic symbols and spread in the Near and Middle East.

It is necessary to mention that besides the sultan’s flag there were also numerous standards of viziers, governors and military commanders.

The famous people in the Turkmen-Ottoman Empire had bunchuks (‘horse’s tails’) on their standards. This tradition originated thousands of years ago.

The great vizier of the empire was allowed to have five bunchuks on his standard while three other viziers had three horse’s tails.

The Turkmen-Ottoman Empire was divided into two parts, Anatolia and Rum, each administered by the beylerbey (‘governor general’) having a two-bunchuk standard. Those provinces were subdivided into districts, sanjaks, governed by sanjak-beys whom the sultan gave one-bunchuk standards.

Military units also had their banners. Even commanders of a hundred and ten soldiers had their own signs.

The large banner of the sultan with embroidered star and crescent against the red background, on the flagstaff with numerous bunchuks impressed greatly. It was carried out on great holidays and during military campaigns when the sultan took part in them. The banner was guarded by a special detachment.

Centuries passed by, stars and crescent again appeared on the State Flag of independent neutral Turkmenistan. Though the modern symbols are full of new sense they are undoubtedly based on the ancient traditions of the Turkmen people.

Ovez GUNDOGDIEV,
Head of the department of the State Institute of Cultural Heritage of the Peoples of Turkmenistan,
Central Asia and the Orient under the President of Turkmenistan




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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2006 at 04:15
But Ozbeks structure is not the same as Turkmens; although closer than Turkish people. They claim Koroghlu was an Ozbek while Turkmens say he was Turkmen.
 
Ask friends like Zagros what Iranians think about Molla Nasreddin.
 
You don't know anything about carpets. Don't teach a Turkmen how carpets are. In international bazaar, a Turkmen carpet is very very different in the patterns. Turkish carpet is always considered close to Tabriz (Azeri) carpets. Do you know what I'm talking about when I say shamanistic? Bring me examples if you know abotu shamanistic patterns Turkmens talk about.
 
I know about the English horse and its realtionship with AqalTeke. Now you're telling me AqalTeke exists in Turkey? AqalTeke doesn't exist in Turkish. History have mentioned AqalTeke horses specific to Turkmen. But there's not such a thing Turkish horses were famous.
 
Frist, tell me what is Borok and what is pishemk. For sure, you don't know what they are or else you wouldn't classify them with breads.
 
No, it's not only south or west. Turkmens are consisted of 9 tribes; not 24. This is the problem I'm all talking about. Even the names of these 9 tribes and Turkish 24 tribes are not the same.
 
It's just like saying 'American English' is the most correct form; cuase more people speak it. Or saying modern day Persian is the most correct form; because it's the standard. You don't know anything about linguistics. Any Turkmen would be surprised to hear the most correct one is the standard one.
 
Is this the culture and similarities you're all talking about? You even don't know anything about breads, horses, carpets, language. If you think we're really of the same origin, why don't you reply me in the thread' Turkmen culture vs Turkish and Azeri'. None of these cultures are found in Turkey. If you think our languages are the same, why don't you reply me in 'Turkmen language vs Turkish and Azeri'. I'm sure you won't even understand a Salyr or Ersary.
 


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 13:12
But Ozbeks structure is not the same as Turkmens; although closer than Turkish people. They claim Koroghlu was an Ozbek while Turkmens say he was Turkmen.
 
 Both accept he was a "Turk", do you even know the "Epic of Koroglu"Confused
 
 
Ask friends like Zagros what Iranians think about Molla Nasreddin.
 
 
LOL You carry on listening to your "friends" and I'll carry on listening to historically proven facts, something accepted by most International scholors.
 
Go visit his Tomb in "Aksehir" Turkey, Nasreddin Hoja has a 400 page work in which his great stories are written, he's in Ottoman records, Seljuk records, Evliya Celebi wrote than in the Aksehir region Nasreddin Hoja was very popular and his tomb is there.............................
 
And so on, I guess everyone in the world is lying except a few Iranians who love his stories so much but can't accept they love stories of Turks.
 
 
 
You don't know anything about carpets. Don't teach a Turkmen how carpets are.
 
Don;t ISmile again, your not the only Turkmen here, so don't You try teach Turkmens about carpets.
 
I know about the English horse and its realtionship with AqalTeke. Now you're telling me AqalTeke exists in Turkey? AqalTeke doesn't exist in Turkish. History have mentioned AqalTeke horses specific to Turkmen.
 
Stop making a clown out of yourself. Its already been established and accepted also by Turkmenistan that TUrkey Turks are "Oguz" (Turkmen Turks) originally from Turkmenistan area. Do you thknk they flew thereLOL No they came on their "Akhal Teke" horses, as they're the same people and their horses became internationally renown.
 
 
No, it's not only south or west. Turkmens are consisted of 9 tribes; not 24. This is the problem I'm all talking about. Even the names of these 9 tribes and Turkish 24 tribes are not the same.
 
Oh so the people in South, West Turkmenistan are not Turkmens, jeez this is now getting ridiculous.
 
Read what Turkmenistan officially says, your not a representative or a spokesperson for Turkmenistan so stop being such an imposter.
 
 
 
 
 
 


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 13:33

Gok turk you said that turkish people arent turkmen but azeri.

 
I was wondering wht they called the turks in anatolia turkmens until early ottoman periode


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 13:34
 

Gok turk you said that turkish people arent turkmen but azeri.

 
I was wondering wht they called the turks in anatolia turkmens until early ottoman periode
 
Don't confuse him even more, he doesn't even accept the majority population of Turkmenistan as Turkmens how could he accept Turkmens from areas outside of Turkmenistan as brothers.
 
 
1300th celebration of the literary legend Dede Korkut/Qorkut-Gorkut by Unesco, his stories are loved by Turks especially in Turkmenistan,Azerbaycan, Turkey (Oguz-Turkmen Turks)
Bekdurdy AMANSARYEV
 
 
 DG/2000/15

Original: English


UNITED NATIONS EDUCATIONAL,
SCIENTIFIC AND CULTURAL ORGANIZATION


Address by
Mr Koďchiro Matsuura


Director-General
of the United Nations Educational,
Scientific and Cultural Organization
(UNESCO)

on the occasion of the celebration of the
1300th Anniversary of Kitab-i Dede Qorqud
Baku, 9 April 2000


Mr President,
Distinguished Heads of State,
Excellencies,
Ladies and Gentlemen,
It is a very great pleasure indeed for me to be here in Baku, to take part in this
anniversary celebration of the epic poem Kitab-i Dede Qorqud.
Let me first express my deep gratitude to President Aliev for his warm and
generous hospitality. On this occasion, I would like to pay special tribute to him for
his remarkable efforts to promote political unity and the economic and social
development of his country.

Allow me also to extend cordial greetings to the Heads
of State gathered here: President Suleyman Demirel of Turkey, President Askar
Akaev of Kyrgyzstan, President Noursoultan Nazarbayev of Kazakhstan and also to
the Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan Speakers of Parliament, Mr Khalilov and Mr
Muradov. I am impressed by the very real interest in the cultural heritage that your
presence at this ceremony shows. You are united not only in your common
linguistic and cultural heritage, but in a shared sense of leadership in the important
area of cultural identity.


Many people now recognise the literary and historic importance of Kitab-i
Dede Qorqud. Oral traditions are the wealth of the world and the precious
inheritance of generations, nations, peoples and regions. This is not just a matter of
literary tradition. Great epics like the Iliad, the Mahabarata and Dede Qorqud offer
a set of historical, social, political, ethical and geographical references through
which the identity of the individual and the community is affirmed.

In their written
form -- and then through translation and wider dissemination -- they become the
inheritance of all humanity. In addition to its English-language version, the recent
publication of the Dede Qorqud epic in Azerbaijan, Turkey, France and Germany,
based on the 15th century manuscripts, attests to this process of dissemination.
Following the decision taken by UNESCO in 1997 to celebrate the epic’s one
thousand-three-hundredth anniversary, two days of special commemorative events
were organised at UNESCO Headquarters last June with the active involvement of
senior Azerbaijan officials and artists.

The audience was completely charmed by
the rich programme which included film, dance, song, music, an exhibition and a
scientific colloquium. In this way, UNESCO introduced the unique cultural
heritage of the Dede Qorqud epic to the international public. This type of event, bringing the oral and intangible heritage of one culture to people from many other
cultures, plays an extremely important role in promoting international
understanding and appreciation of cultural diversity.

Mr President,
Ladies and Gentlemen,
We readily “share” the monuments of the tangible heritage. When I say
“share”, I mean that we are all able to look on the pyramids, for example, as our
common heritage. We are all able to enjoy the beauty of such outstanding
architectural remains. But we must also be able to share and enjoy more intangible
treasures, such as this great epic poem that was first handed down by oral tradition
for centuries before finally being written down and published in the 15th century.


Kitab-i Dede Qorqud was the creation of a nomadic people. This saga was their
outstanding and most enduring monument. It has survived the passing centuries,
just as the stone monuments of sedentary peoples have survived the centuries. We
are not talking about the preservation of something marginal: this legendary epic is
full of the wisdom of the ages. It is a philosophy in itself, and cannot therefore be
seen merely as an optional aspect of life.
As you know, before becoming Director-General of UNESCO, I chaired the
World Heritage Committee. And before that, I represented my country, Japan, on
the same Committee.

So I have seen from various perspectives how national and
international approaches to, and responsibilities for, world heritage interlink. Over
the years, UNESCO’s efforts to preserve heritage have evolved in line with
changing perceptions. While first concentrating on the cultural heritage, they have
since striven to take in the natural dimensions of our heritage and, more recently,
begun to include oral and intangible heritage.

These shifts in emphasis are
something to which UNESCO must constantly remain alert, and I personally attach
great importance to seeing to it that our programmes reflect these evolving
priorities.
In this regard, UNESCO’s Member States will soon be invited to submit
candidacies for the new title “masterpieces of oral and intangible heritage of
humanity”. The first award of this prestigious title will be made in just over one
year’s time. This title - or label, if you like - will, I feel sure, help promote respect
and understanding of the very notion of intangible heritage. In this way, it will
contribute to the promotion of cultural diversity and give us new arms to resist the
trend towards uniformity which globalisation so often triggers.

The celebration ofcultural diversity is also fundamental to the promotion of tolerance, harmony and
understanding. So the issue of safeguarding and revitalising the intangible heritage
means much more than promoting folklore: it goes to the heart of human existence.
Its enduring importance to communities across the entire region derives from its
role in establishing and maintaining cultural identity.


Mr President,
Ladies and Gentlemen,

The rich heritage of the past in your region is not only significant as a
contribution to world civilisation; it is also a resource which can help you to rise to
the challenges of the present and can help you to build the future.
This summit meeting of TÜRKSOY attests to your forward-looking approach
to cultural cooperation. UNESCO and TÜRKSOY share the same vision of culture
and development.

The preservation, revitalisation and promotion of the Turkic
languages, cultures and traditions open the way to a dynamic, creative and proactive
engagement with the world of the twenty-first century. And as in the past with the
Silk Roads, which remain an extraordinary example of mutual cultural enrichment
through the contacts they stimulated between the regions they traversed,
development is rooted in the strong expression of cultural identities that remain
open and responsive to dialogue, change and pluralism.


The on-going dialogue and cooperation through which you pursue these goals
will open the way to closer links, greater understanding and a better appreciation of
diversity. This approach to cultural cooperation unlocks the potential of individuals
and of the community. Regional cooperation in this part of Europe and Asia holds
the promise of flourishing economic, social and human development.
UNESCO’s fields of competence - education, science, culture and
communication - offer particularly fertile ground for this effort. I am very pleased
to see how well advanced our joint efforts are in the scientific programmes for the
Caspian Sea and Aral Sea.

I believe that the recently published Aral Sea Basin
Vision document, can be seen as a model for integrated and inter-disciplinary
efforts to achieve sustainable development. It is a model which seeks to work with,
and not only for, the communities concerned.
Having been for so long a cross-roads between civilisations, religions and cultures, your region can, I am convinced, build on its wealth of experience to
promote international dialogue and understanding. UNESCO is most ready to build
an ever-stronger partnership with you in working towards the goals of peaceful
international cooperation.

We are already actively preparing UNESCO’s
contribution to the United Nations Year of Dialogue Among Civilisations which the
UN General Assembly has proclaimed for 2001.
I thank you once again for inviting me to be part of this celebration of a
cultural masterpiece that, even today, remains a source of inspiration to us all.

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0011/0011...194/119498e.pdf - http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0011/0011...194/119498e.pdf
 
 
 
The glorious sons of the Motherland

The unfading memory of the wise forefather
/10.06.06/


Gorkut ata Turkmen occupies the special place among the legendary historical figures of the Turkmen people. An entire epoch of the spiritual development in the Turkmen history is linked to Gorkut ata.

The epos Gorkut ata is a magnificent literary monument of the Turkmen nation. A wise narrator and mouthpiece of the people’s cherished dreams Gorkut ata wrote and performed the wonderful songs in honour of Turkmen epic heroes. Other baghshis sang his songs and passed them from mouth to mouth over many centuries. Some time later these sagas were written down and published. Rashid-ad-Din, Abu-l-Ghazi and other medieval historians wrote about his life. It became the common property of people only two centuries ago, when the scientific world discovered the Turkmen epic literature from the manuscripts preserved in the Turkmen people’s memory over the centuries.

The first list was found in early XIX century in the stock of the manuscripts at the Dresden National Library and owing to the works of a German orientalist Ditz it was widely distributed in the scientific circles worldwide. More than 100 years later six stories of the so-called second manuscript were found in a library in Vatican by an Italian researcher E. Rossi. In the middle of XX century, a Turkmen scientist Ata Rakhmanov wrote down 16 chapters of the so-called ‘chovdur version’ of the epos from a baghshi.

In 1922, a Russian Academician V. V. Bartold translated the Book of Gorkut ata preserved on the Dresden manuscript into Russian. However, only 40 years later this work was published in small quantity and immediately became a bibliographic rarity.

The book tells about the struggle of the Turkmen heroes against their enemies. Some other story lines are developed as well. The real events and elements of artistic fiction are interlaced in the plot. A. Yu. Yakubovskiy wrote an interesting scientific article noting that the epos Gorkut ata was of significant importance for studying the life of the Turkmen society in the early medieval period. In his article, the author emphasized that the book precisely mirrored the national customs and believes, the names of the Turkmen tribes, the hierarchy in the Turkmen society, the features of their lifestyle, etc.

The more the work exists the more fairy elements it contains. Not surprising that the legends about Gorkut ata Turkmen who is 1,500 years old, tells about both real and fantastic personages and events.

For example, a story about Domrul tells about a fight of the Turkmen hero against the angel of death. In some other story, one beg has a son whose name was Beset. Later, a lion ‘brought up’ the young man who lived alone and was unable to get rid of his ‘animal habits’. Nevertheless, Gorkut ata was persistently persuading Beset to return into human society and taught the laws of living among people to him.

In old times, the legend says, there was ‘one-eyed giant ogre’ Depegez who killed many people. Gorkut Ata was brave enough to talk to the ogre and suggested taking a levy instead of killing people. Eventually, Beset killed the cruel ‘giant ogre’. Gorkut ata brought the young man back to human society.

The Book of Gorkut ata has many interesting realistic personages. One of them is an ordinary man, a shepherd. There is an episode: the enemies made a plundering raid to the camp of the Turkmen beg Salyr Ghazan, took prisoner his wife and son and robbed him of gold and silver ware, horses and camels. Moreover, the enemies decided to seize his 10000 sheep. They sent 600 racers. The hard-working shepherd started a fight to save his master’s flock. He was even ready to sacrifice his life to help Salyr Ghazan to release his family from captivity.

According to the legends, Gorkut ata is a patriarchy who supervises his people and the elders. He is a whitebeard wise man, a baghshi – singer and prophet. All the Turkmen people should obey him. The rulers and heroes respected him as Gorkut ata always gave the pieces of good advice.

Many Turkmen customs originate from the period when the wise Gorkut ata lived. In the period, there was a wonderful custom: prior to performing some important acts one needed to consult the elders. The wise teacher Gorkut ata always called upon to it. After gaining independence Turkmenistan revived the good traditions. Each year the best representatives of the nation regularly gather at Halk Maslakhaty (People’s Council) in which the elders – respected yashuli as well as the ministers, khyakims, public leaders take part.

Gorkut ata introduced the new moral values to the life of the Turkmen people thanks to his sermons about faith. Speaking about the faith of our ancestors, we should note that in ancient times the Turkmen people were pagans-idolaters. Gorkut ata lived in late VI and early VII centuries when Prophet Mohammed announced about one Allah for all. Gorkut ata was one of the first to adopt Islam and to go on a pilgrimage to Mecca.

The Book of Gorkut ata is a wonderful paragon of the developed Turkmen literary language. The book contains the sayings, proverbs, witty language nuances which amaze even modern linguists. For example, it contains a wise advice of the Turkmen elder ‘Until you have a father, work for a good name, until you have a horse, pave a path!’ There is a statement which became an aphorism: ‘Music starts where words end’.

This epic work occupies a special place in the rich heritage of the Turkmen nation. At the same time, it should be noted that the cult of Gorkut is well spread amongst many Turkic nations. Academician V. V. Bartold said “The Kazakh learned the cult of Korkud from the Oghuz through the Gypchak … From the banks of the Syr Darya the Oghuz brought the legends about a Turkmen prophet and singer Korkud, a mouthpiece and repository of wisdom, to the west.”

The stories about Gorkut ata still live in Northern Caucuses amongst the Nogai, where the Turkmen people fought and roamed. In the Stavropol Territory there is a village named after the great Turkmen prophet. Alisher Navoyi, an Oriental classical poet and thinker, once said that ‘Gorkut ata is too famous among the Turkic peoples to need more popularity’.

http://www.turkmenistan.gov.tm/people/pep&trad_eng.htm - http://www.turkmenistan.gov.tm/people/pep&trad_eng.htm

 
 
Dede Korkut statue in Holland from Azerbaycan.
 
IPB Image

 
A story of Dede Korkut,
 
Salyr Bey Wink enjoy
 
http://literature.aznet.org/literature/gorgud/w2_gorgud_en.htm - http://literature.aznet.org/literature/gor...2_gorgud_en.htm


-------------
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 16:49
anlayana sivri sinek saz, anlamayana davul zurna az

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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg -


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 03:28

One of the greatest Iranian poets 'Molavi' s birthplace or tomb (I'm not sure on this) is in Turkey. But this does not show he was a Turk. So, is this your proof he was Turk?

It's your own belief; just like the way Iranians think he was Iranian, you claim he was Turk. By the way, show me your INTERNATIONAL historians who have researched about Molla Nasreddin.
 
No AqalTeke exists in Turkey. We haven't got any famous horse from Turkey, let alone to believe AqalTeke exists in Turkey. We'll be, ANYWAY, connected, huh? Which Oghuz? Ofcourse they were not 9 Oghuz.'
 
All Turkmens are consisted of 9 tribes. You don't read the posts exactly. Did I say Turkmens in south and west have got 24 tribes? Our tribal confederations is not the same with yours.
 
I didn't say Turkish people are Azeri.
 
Northern Khoaran TURKs  sometimes call themsleves, 'tat Turkmen'. They're not Turkmen; but (were) nomads. There are lots of people who are called 'Turkmen' but are not from Turkmenistan. They were called so, just because they were nomads.
 
You said it: 'anlayana sivri sinek saz, anlamayana davul zurna az '.


-------------
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 03:52
There's really no need to get angry and call people 'clown; anlamayan' when you can't answer the question.
 
You all can make fun of me until whenever you want; but won't be able to give proofs. You're just EXPRESSING yourself.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 10:22
Originally posted by gok_toruk

One of the greatest Iranian poets 'Molavi' s birthplace or tomb (I'm not sure on this) is in Turkey. But this does not show he was a Turk. So, is this your proof he was Turk?

It's your own belief; just like the way Iranians think he was Iranian, you claim he was Turk. By the way, show me your INTERNATIONAL historians who have researched about Molla Nasreddin.
About "Molavi or Mevlana" i can agree, but about "molla nasreddin or Nasreddin Hoca" i dont agree, you dont need to find after "International historians", just come to his birthplace in Aksehir (in Konya) and visit his turbe there. The local people there will show you enough evidences.





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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
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Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 10:25
 
Northern Khoaran TURKs  sometimes call themsleves, 'tat Turkmen'. They're not Turkmen; but (were) nomads. There are lots of people who are called 'Turkmen' but are not from Turkmenistan. They were called so, just because they were nomads.
I thought we gave another name for nomads btw "yörük". The problem is you dont want to understand that there are Turkmens outside Turkmenistan. Dude Turkmenistan exist only for 15-16 years, therefore or hundreds year before, that place whas called "Turkestan" and it is known that people moved from there to the west via Iran or via Russia. How you can be sure that maybe "some" Turkmens didnt moved to the west (or where forced to move)?

I find this an absurd statement of you "There are lots of people who are called 'Turkmen' but are not from Turkmenistan" a real blunder so far.


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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 12:03

Just go to Iran and you'll see what they think about Molla Nasreddin. Ask an Ozbek (I'm talking to Bulldog) if Koroghlu is Turk. He definatley would say 'no; an Ozbek'. Alright you can classify them as all Turks; but for sure, we know they're not the same people.

'Yoruk' is not used among Turkmens; it's meaningful; but not used the way you told. That's what I told you about 'charwoq' and 'tayqan'. The classifications are not the same.
 
You're talking about nations; not people. The name Turkmen has been used for more than 800 years. It's not about Turkmen. 9 Oghuz and Sihun Oghuz are two seprate tribal confederations. Turkmens were the last people in Central Asia who were defeated by Russia. Why should they migrate to west? They are different people under the similar names. Don't confue past with present. Our problem is on 9 Oghuz and Sihun Oghuz. History obviously shows they were not the same people. You're again neglecting the facts.
 
Ofcourse. You can't classify an Iraqi Turkmen with somebody from Turkmenistan, because of their names. The name 'Turkmen' has been somehow misused.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 12:46
One of the greatest Iranian poets 'Molavi' s birthplace or tomb (I'm not sure on this) is in Turkey.

Your not sure about alot of things are you but you sure as hell like to pretend you are.

Mevlana was from today's Afganistan area originally, he spent most his life in "Konya" today#s Turkey capitol of the Selchuk Turk State.

He was an Islamic Philosopher and professed to being a "human" not a nationalist.

His family today exist and are Turks and state that he was originally a Turk.

He wrote in Persian, however, he never wrote heavilly about Nationalism etc as he was a devout Muslim.


It's your own belief; just like the way Iranians think he was Iranian, you claim he was Turk. By the way, show me your INTERNATIONAL historians who have researched about Molla Nasreddin.

     Don't you read man.


Celebration of anniversaries

The General Conference,

Having taken note of 146 EX/Decision 9.2 and 147 EX/Decision 8.7,

Decides that:

(a) UNESCO shall be associated in 1996-1997 with the following celebrations:

(xxix) seven hundredth anniversary of the death of the Turkish humorist Nasreddin

Hoca, Hodja ( Nasruddin, Goha) (1996);


http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0010/001018/101803E.pdf#search=%22Supports%20OAU%20Resolution%20CM%2FRES.1603%20(LXII)%20%20Nasreddin%20%22




The Turkish Jester by Hoca Nasreddin

Bibliographic Record Creator Nasreddin, Hoca
Translator Borrow, George Henry, 1803-1881
Title The Turkish Jester
or, The Pleasantries of Cogia Nasr Eddin Effendi


http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16244
Nasreddin Hodja
Tales of the Turkish Trickster
D. L. Ashliman

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/hodja.html

http://www.cs.biu.ac.il/~schiff/Net/front.html

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/197103/a.man.of.many.names.htm


You want to carry on? this is Internationally accepted, besides nearly half of Iran is made up of Turks, they always tell his stories its natural for people who arn't Turks in Iran to like them aswell.

Also Arabs, Balkan countries even in North Africa his stories are told.

They all accept he was a Turk, there's no argument about it.

His tomb is in Turkey, his jokes are in Turkish he even has jokes about Persians, he's mentioned in Sari Saltuks Saltukname, works by Cem Sultan brother of Mehmed the Conqueror, in the Paris Bibilioteque, Evliya Celebi......... and so on

Between July 5-10 of each year, International Nasreddin Hodja Festival takes place in Aksheir, where his tomb is.


No AqalTeke exists in Turkey.


I guess Turks just flew to today's Turkey on magic carpets, ofcourse there are Akhal Teke horses, its how they made their mark in Europe.

We haven't got any famous horse from Turkey

Nobody said the horse was from "Turkey", its Internationally accepted as the national horse of Turkmenistan and as Turkey Turks are mainly Oguz Turkmen its how they got to today's Turkey.

All Turkmens are consisted of 9 tribes. You don't read the posts exactly. Did I say Turkmens in south and west have got 24 tribes?

Your just flipping and mixing now, there are Afshar, Salur, Tahtaci, Kayi, Bayat.........etc etc in Turkmenistan today stop kidding yoruself.

Northern Khoaran TURKs sometimes call themsleves, 'tat Turkmen'. They're not Turkmen; but (were) nomads. There are lots of people who are called 'Turkmen' but are not from Turkmenistan.

Don't you realise that the borders of Turkmenistan are only recent and were drawn up artificially by Russians, theres two million Turkmen in Iran, Turkmen in Afganistan, Irak, Syria, Turkey, Cyprus, Kafkas, Balkans and so on, this is all land of Turkmen Turks.


DayI
I find this an absurd statement of you "There are lots of people who are called 'Turkmen' but are not from Turkmenistan" a real blunder so far.


I totally agree.

Just come to Iran and you'll see what they think about Molla Nasreddin. Ask an Ozbek (I'm talking to Bulldog) if Koroghlu is Turk. He definatley would say 'no; an Ozbek'.

There are nearly 30 million Turks in Iran, if you were to ask one of them they'd obviously state he was a Turk and recite his stories in Turkish as they make most sense to Turks and Turkish humour, society and structure.

I have asked Ozbek Turks, they know he was a Turk as they know they're Turks one hundred-two hundred years ago there was no differentiating, everyone was simply a Turk there were different tribes and clans but everyone belonged to the Turk nation.

Koroglu was a Turk as was Karacagolan as was Nasreddin Hoca.

b]You're talking about nations; not people. The name Turkmen has been used for more than 800 years.

Absolute nonsense, Turkmen has been used for 1300 years. Turkmen is not a seperate nation, Turkmens are Turks. Just read what TURKMENISTAN OFFICIALLY WRITES, it accepts and promotes that the Turks of Turkey are Oguz Turkmen Turks and is proud of this.

Why should they migrate to west?

If your going down this route why should any Turk have ever migrated West from the Altay region

Ofcourse. You can't classify an Iraqi Turkmen with somebody from Turkmenistan

Yes you can and you can classify most Turks west of Turkey with Turkmenistan, this is internationally accepted.

Your just comming out with subjective views and have no substance against the facts which are being presented.


    

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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 13:11
Another "epic" shared by Turks is that of Koroglu/Gorogly.

Epic of Köroğlu

The Epic of Köroğlu (Turkish: Köroğlu destanı) is a legend prominent in the oral traditions of the Turkic peoples. The legend first began to take shape sometime around the 11th century CE, at about the same time as another common Turkic legend, that of Dede Korkut.

As a legend common to several different cultures, the epic of Köroğlu exists in many variants in a number of different Turkic languages. A theme common to nearly all versions, however, is that of the hero—Köroğlu, or "son of the blind man"—defending his clan or tribe against threats from outside. In many of the versions, Köroğlu earns his name from the wrongful blinding of his father, an act for which the son takes his revenge and which initiates his series of adventures. He is portrayed as a bandit and a poet.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koroglu



Koroglu was a Turkic national hero in Azerbaijan in the 16th century. The Koroglu epic is shared by the Azerbaijanis, the Turks of Turkey, and the Turkmens. Most of the characters in the epic were historical persons, including Koroglu, Giziroglu Bey, Kosa Safar, Jafar and Hasan Pasha. Koroglu's many poems are kept in the Institute of Manuscripts of the Academy of Sciences of Azerbaijan.


The saga about Gorogly


The period of the history of our nation, when the epos Gorogly was developed, was not an easy one. XVI century was the century of intertribal factions which promoted the external influence that made the Turkmen nation dependent on foreign invaders.

This situation put the heroes, who protected the Motherland from the enemies in the forefront. Gorogly is the epic embodiment the heroic deeds. He is the main hero of the famous legends that tells about the fights of the Turkmen people against foreign invaders and local tyrants, despots and their accomplice.

According to researchers, the legends about Gorogly beg Turkmen are based on the historical events as they narrate about the real events taking place in XVI-XVII centuries. However, the laws of the genre evolving from the ancient traditions assume that the epos comprises the realistic images, the mythic elements and personages like a winged horse, fairy, a magic dutar, heavenly sward and others.

Many researchers think that such the epic hero as Gorogly beg Turkmen might had a historical prototype. According to some versions, in XVII century Arakel from Tebriz wrote that during the reign of Safavid Shah Abbas I there was national protector named Gorogly “who wrote many songs, which are still performed by ashugs.” Professor H. Samuelian states that “in XVII century there was a man named Gorogly who was very famous’.

The same can be referred to other personages in the epos Gorogly. In the works of an orientalist P. I. Petrushevkiy we find some data about the military leader Jygaly beg who protected his Motherland. The scientist states the exact data – the year 1605. This historical figure is considered the prototype of the epic hero– Jygaly beg, an opponent of the unjust shah. In the dastan Gorogly he was blinded by the cruel and unfair despot.

A medieval historian Hasan beg Rumly mentions a strong fighter-hero Ovez (Avaz) amongst the leaders of the uprising in Tebriz (1571-1574). Some specialists suppose that he was the prototype of the epic hero Ovez who was adopted by Gyorogly beg Turkmen.

A. S. Tveretinova in her work “The Uprising of Kara Yazyjy-Dali Hasan in Turkey”, and earlier (in 1912) a Russian scientists A. Adamov wrote that in Arabic Iraq there was a large uprising of the Turkmen in response to the oppression. Dali Hasan, who is depicted as a hero (in some versions as Gorogly’s close friend, in the others –his adopted son), is mentioned in the Turkmen legends as a leader of the upsurge.

Scientists made some attempts to find the historical parallels to the negative heroes of the epos as well. A scientist I. P. Petrushevkiy wrote that when following the advice of his vezier Hamza-mirza Safavid Shah Mohammed Khodabanda in 1584 wanted to arrest Turkmen prince Amin khan, the Turkmen tribes stirred up a large rebellion. In this regard, Academician B .Karryev assumes that vizier Khamza-mirza is a negative personage in the epos Gyorogly epos (in the Turkmen version he is a dignitary who had a prison – zindan).

In the mid XVI century military leader Mustafa-pasha led the army of 100,000 warriors to the Caucuses, where the large tribal unions of the Turkmen people had settled down. Thus, some scientists find a parallel to the real Turkish commander and his epic namesake Mustafa-pasha, who treacherously attacks Gyorogly’s tribe as the dastan tells.

The versions of the epos Gorogly are spread amongst the nations in Central Asia (Turkmen, Karakalpaks, Uzbeks, Tajiks), the Caucuses (Armenian, Azeri, Georgian), Asia Minor (Turks, Kurds), Siberia (Tobol Tatars) and others. Professor H. Samuelian in his foreword to the Armenian version of the epos Gorogly writes, “In the Azerbaijanian and Turkish versions of the epos it is mentioned that Gorogly was a Turkmen by origin”.

… According to a legend, little Gorogly was born in a very unusual way. His mother dies, when she was still pregnant, and Gorogly was born…in a grave. The people of Chandybil gave him the name of Rovshen. Rovshen means light, radiant, and bright. This name meant that the boy came out from the gloomy grave into the bright world. However, often he is named ‘a son of a grave’ – Gorogly.

Since Gorogly beg Turkmen was an orphan, he was raised by his grandfather Jygaly beg, who wanted his grandchild to become a brave dzhigit – a brave defender of his Motherland and his people. Since his childhood Gorogly spent much time with shepherds and horse-breeders. They and his grandfather taught him to ride horse and use weapon, and told to him about the simple, but important ideas like protecting the homeless, helping those in need, punishing the unjust. Since his youth Gorogly stood as a leader: he was brave, courageous, determined, unusually strong and fair.

…A blood thirsty khan lived in those restless times. He oppressed the Turkmen nation a great deal. Gorogly’s grandfather fell a victim to the khan. The khan blinded Jygaly beg. Our hero – brave and courageous – was determined to take revenge on this cruel khan for the oppression!

Gorogly was an unusually strong man. His feats were so unusual that people tried to explain the source of his power by telling that all mighty protectors – Prophet Khydyr and chiltens – 40 powerful saints helped him. It was difficult to defeat Gorogly in a battle as he knew well how to use weapon. However, the people’s imagination interpreted the reasons of his invincibility by presuming that the Gorogly’s sword was made of heavenly metal by some mysterious spirits-protectors – erens.

Gorogly beg Turkmen was another weapon – a bow made of rare metals. The spokesmen tried to emphasize the unusual power of the bow and thus said that an arrow sent by the bow killed 7 elephants standing in one row. No one could play as well as Gorogly played the dutar. When he sang his wonderful songs, everything seemed to come to a standstill. This is why many people thought that his dutar was magic. It is not surprising that this hero has an unusual horse named Gyrat. It was so fast that people remembered him as a ‘winged horse’.

Taking care of his native people the wise leader of dzhigits built an asylum in the mountains – inaccessible to the enemies the castle Chandybil. A girl named Aga-Yunus, whom Gorogly married, was so beautiful, wise, brave and had many other wonderful qualities that she was called ‘heavenly peri’. Aga-Yunus was the hero’s devoted wife and helper, his true friend and wise advisor, whom Gorogly listened to, and respected a lot.

Speaking on the lessons, which can be learnt from the epos, I would like to note the language of the dastan Gorogly. The language is unusually rich and at the same time simple and fine. As if we hear the wise statements, sayings, proverbs used by the personages of the epos “Old enemy will not become a friend, a black cat – white”, “The aarket of a rich man is always with him”, “Ask a racer about horse-riding, old people – about cattle, courage men – about battles, wolves – about sheep”, “Verbosity is like a field overgrown with weeds” and many others.

Over some centuries the dastan Gorogly is a favourite work of many Turkmen baghshi. There is one chapter-shaha, which they do not like to perform as it narrates about … the hero’s death. Famous Palvan-baghshi who assisted in transcribing the main text of the epos published in 1941 and 1956, did not perform this chapter. Some other baghshis performed it later. In some versions the hero does not die. Having reached the age of 120 he went away to the mountains. According to one version of the dastan recorded in 1939 from the words of famous performer Kurbandurdy-baghshi Gotur ogly, Gorogly handed over his power to his son Er ogly whose name means ‘a son of a daring fellow’.


Bekdurdy AMANSARYEV     



Koroglu Epic is loved by all Turks.
    

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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 17:43
Originally posted by gok_toruk

Just go to Iran and you'll see what they think about Molla Nasreddin. Ask an Ozbek (I'm talking to Bulldog) if Koroghlu is Turk. He definatley would say 'no; an Ozbek'.

Ofcourse they would say so, because they think Timurlenk whas an Uzbek also. Its like "molla nasruddin" or "nasreddin hoca" it is told from youth to them as "an uzbek molla nasruddin" or "there whas a whise uzbek hoca wich his name whas nasreddin who..." you know. If you search after the topic "Nasreddin hoca" in forum_topics.asp?FID=22 - Post-Classical Middle East forum you'll be suprised how many people think that he is "one of them".


Alright you can classify them as all Turks; but for sure, we know they're not the same people.

correct.


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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg -


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 04:57

Just stating your own IDEA with no proofs. Alright, you're also always laughing and making fun.

Why don't you debate the numbers in '9 Oghuz and Sihun Oghuz', the questions in 'Turkmen culture vs Anatolian' and the linguistic differences in 'Northern Turkmen vs Anatolian'?
 
I suppose this is the time to end this arguement. You claim Turkmens and Turks are the same, but you haven't been able to defend yourself against all those facts. At least, I really don't HAVE to be here to be kind of a 'fun' for people like you and Dayi.
 
Take your time, look around and maybe you'll get inspired.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 13:24
Just stating your own IDEA with no proofs.
 
Your talking about yourself right? It was you was doubting Nasreddin Hodja was a Turk, I bought proof's about who he was. Your the one pretending that Turkmenistan-Azerbaycan-Turkey Turks have nothing in common. I however, don't agree and know its completely the opposite and am bringing Official Turkmenistan Sources to the table!
 
Why don't you debate the numbers in '9 Oghuz and Sihun Oghuz', the questions in 'Turkmen culture vs Anatolian' and the linguistic differences in 'Northern Turkmen vs Anatolian'?
 
This is ur personal theory, there are the same people/tribes and their names and banners in Turkmenistan, Azerbaycan, Turkey.
 
Ofcourse there are also different ones, this is perfectly normal as there is a long geographical distance between the countries, nobody is saying they are "identical".
 
There are differences between North Eastern and South Western Anatolian Turkish, there;s difference between Geordie, Liverpudlian, London accents in Brittish English, there's differences in Texan, New Yorker accents in American English.
 
There are regional differences in languages across the world, its a natural part and parcel of linguistics.
 
However, we must observe the "Official Standard Language" of the countries.
 
The Official Standard Turkish of Azerbaycan, Turkmenistan, Turkey can be read and understood by each other's people.
 
 
You claim Turkmens and Turks are the same
 
This comment is incorrect, Turkmens are Turks so obviously they are the same. Anatolian Turks roots are the Turks of Turkmenistan, the most powerfull states of the Anatolian Turks, Selchuks and Ottomans were from Turkmenistan, the huge Oguz Turk migration was from Turkmenistan area.
 
These are facts.
 
You seem to believe that "your" subjective views are facts when they are merely your views, everyone is entitled to their views but is not entitled to try and force their views on others just because "they" think their right and everyone else is wrong.
 
Are you going to call the official Turkmenistan sources a pack of lies?


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 11:46

It's you who's always neglecting historical points. You, either have neglected what those historians have said or just ADVERTISING Turks and Turkmens are really similar (not the same). Alright, let's say I don't know much about Turkey; I'm on a misson (as Osmanli says) to seprate Turks and Turkmens (people of Turkmenistan are Turkmens; not Turks). But I've listed facts historians have mentioned. YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS. You claim you're right while I'm not, on this topic. Let's say I don't know anything; but how come you can't answer these questions? You're all getting angry and using improper language. See, I can use the same over you. I won't confront with you on such a matter; simply becuase this is a public forum; not a place for our quarrel.

 
It's not my personal theory. If you think so, you haven't even read what I've written. Iranian historians are not trustable? Anyhow, they're the people who've talked the most about Turks after living Mongolia.
 
Yeah, the official languages are SOMEHOW related. I'm sure, though you won't understand Turkmen totally when it comes to hear it. You claim you've talked with Turkmens? Alright, so get online and I'll see if you really understand the official Turkmen. Anyhow, this IS official; but not the most correct. This is slightest dialect chosen as official; because this is the accent used by the dominanat tribe Tekke (ofcourse for the time being). The parliment and officals are mostly chosen from Tekkes. In fact, these people are those who control everything here. That's why that's offical. I just wanted to explain this; cause it seems like you didn't know this. Or else, you wouldn't keep saying 'offical Turkmen is the most proper Turkmen'. 
 
You haven't even read the posts and the refrences. Even if you did, YOU AREN'T ABLE TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.
 
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14612&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14612&PN=1
 
Read the starting posts again and you'll see if these are my own ideas.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 15:59
It's you who's always neglecting historical points.
 
Its you its me its you its him its her its......common now how childish.
 
You don't present any historical points, you just present your subjective views and try to manipulate history to make it seem kind of believable.
 
 
 You, either have neglected what those historians have said or just ADVERTISING Turks and Turkmens are really similar (not the same). Alright, let's say I don't know much about Turkey; I'm on a misson (as Osmanli says) to seprate Turks and Turkmens (people of Turkmenistan are Turkmens; not Turks).
 
 Hey its not just me saying it, THIS IS OFFICIAL TURKMENISTAN MATERIAL MY FRIEND, not just some crazy stories somebody invented.
 
Turks in general have similarities obviously, however, Turkmenistan, Azerbaycan, Turkey Turks really do have alot in common and this is all I'm pointing out.
 
Official Turkmenistan-Azerbaycan-Turkey Turkish can be understood and read by Turks of each country. There are cultural, historical, literary connections and a bond between the people.
 
People of Turkmenistan are Turks so I don't know why your so confused about this.
 
If Turkey was called Anatoley they'd still be Turks, TRNC Northern Cyprus- the country isn't called Turk etc but they;re Turks. These are basic errors that I'm suprised you could make.
 
Are Gagauz Gagauzians? Uygurs Uygurians etc no there Turks.
 
Jordan, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Yemen etc are all Arabs, they have big differences in dialect aswell but the standard Arabic is understood by the Arabs.
 
YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS
 
Question on Nasreddin Hodja=Answered, on Koroglu=answered and so on, its you not answering questions my friend.
 
 
It's not my personal theory. If you think so, you haven't even read what I've written. Iranian historians are not trustable?
 
 Most are as trustable as a Turkish historian is trustable when being a historian on Kurds.
 
I find "primary sources" analyses' by reputable independant historians with little emotional relation to the history their commenting on and the "secondary sources" they research to be far more reliable.
 
If you listen to biased historians too much you'll end up believing stories like Nasreddin Hoca miracullously being a PersianConfused when the rest of the world knows he was a Turk.
 
 
 
Yeah, the official languages are SOMEHOW related. I'm sure, though you won't understand Turkmen totally when it comes to hear it. You claim you've talked with Turkmens? Alright, so get online and I'll see if you really understand the official Turkmen. Anyhow, this IS official; but not the most correct. This is slightest dialect chosen as official; because this is the accent used by the dominanat tribe Tekke (ofcourse for the time being). The parliment and officals are mostly chosen from Tekkes. In fact, these people are those who control everything here. That's why that's offical. I just wanted to explain this;
 
You don't know what I am, for all you know I could be a TurkmenWink Tekke and the accents shared by many others very similar to this are the majority in Turkmenistan. There are many relatives of Tekke's who are in Turkey and also who were among the first Turks to populate Anatolia. Turkmenistan state realises this and promotes the fact most Turks West of Turkmenistan are relatives of Turkmenistan Turks and began there.
 
Its nothing bad, its great for Turkmenistan the state realises this and promotes it, the roots of most Turks West of Turkmenistan are from Turkmenistan and they're proud of this.
 
 
Why are you getting so annoyed? don't you want to accept these realities?
 


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 17:29
Lets see what the amazing Miras National Cultural Heritage Centre of Turkmenistan has to offer.
 
 
This series of the rarities of the Turkmen literature started with the publication of the two-volume work of a famous Turkmen historian of the 15th century Yazyjy ogly Ali The History of the Turkmen- Seljuks. The manuscript of this work is mentioned under the title Taryhi eli Seljuk ( History of the Seljuks’ Ancestors) and Oghuznamah but according to the scientists- historians it was more famous as Seljuknamah or The History of the Turkmen-Seljuks which corresponds to the main contents of the narration. Unfortunately, the information on the biographical data about Yazyjy ogly Ali has not practically been preserved. It is only known that he lived in the 15th century, in the period of ruling of Sultan Murad II and that he was a highly-educated man perfectly knowing the works of his predecessors, the outstanding ancient historians.

If we turn to the chronology of the events described by the author, we can draw a conclusion that this work was written in about 1423-1436. To make his narration more trustworthy, the author used written sources, evidence and facts from the history of the dynasty. The books give much information on the time of ruling of the Seljuk dynasty and on the state established by them. The author gives a thorough analysis of the inner state of the Seljuk state and tells about the struggle of the sultans against their enemies. Great attention is paid to the culture and art of that time.
 
The work of Hoja Ahmed Yasavi, one of the founders of the Oghuz Turkmen literature, Hikmety, instructions and teachings of a religious character rendered in a remarkable poetic form was published on the basis of a great number (more than 100) of versions of the manuscripts, ancients examples kept in the National Institute of Manuscripts.
Thus during the years of independence such books as Yagsyzadalaryn bahary (‘Spring of Benefactors’)were translated into and published in Turkmen in six volumes for the first time as well as the collections of the poems of Yunus Emre.....the collection Divan written by one of the outstanding literary men of the Orient Zahir ed-Din Muhammed Babur and some others cause special interest.
 
Inna BUROVA
 
http://www.turkmenistan.gov.tm/people/pep&kult_eng.htm -  
 
How interesting, the Selchuk Turks are Turkmen-Oghuz.
 
 Oghuzname is another epic shared by Turkmenistan-Azerbaycan-Turkey Turks and has a place in Miras Centre.
 
http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0001/0001_18_07.htm - http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0001/0001_18_07.htm
 
A basic intro to Oguzname Oghuz Khan Dastany.
 
 
What about Yunus Emre he was from Anatolia-Turkey ofcourse he was an Oguz-Turk(Turkmen) Turkmenistan recognises this and has bought his Poetry and philosophy
now to Turkmenistan - He was a brilliant humanist and one who broke down philosophy to all of society not just the educated elites.

"Let us Love and be Loved"

"The world is my true ration Its people are my nation."

"True faith is in the head, not in the headgear.
 


http://www.stwing.upenn.edu/~durduran/yunus/ - http://www.stwing.upenn.edu/~durduran/yunus/
 
 
And "Ahmed Yasavi" is very respected in Turkey as Turkmenistan and the rest
of TUrkistan. Haci Bektashi was from his school and was a driving force in the
spread of Islam in Turkey and the Balkans.
 
And Babur Khan's autobiography is also there.
 
Turkmenistan's policy is not to try and divide and hate all Turks, its to build bridges and ties
and embrace this special bond.


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 05:44

YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS. About Koroghlu and Molla Nasreddin, you're just telling us about your own idea. It's not an answer; it's your own personal idea. You say Koroghlu was Turkmen; I say Ozbeks, but believe he was an Ozbek; so we can't be sure, for the time being. You say Molla Nasreddin is Turk; I say Iranians say he was Iranian. You talk about refrences? Well, I'll suggest 'Navayi' poems about Koroghlu. About Molla Nasreddin, virtually all Iranian social books have mentioned such a person.

People of Turkmenistan are Turkmens. You're not from the core family of the empire GokTurk, to be considered Turk. You're Oghuz; but just as a contract, you classified as Turk (this does not mean you're Turk). For we Central Asians, we're first Turkmen or Ozbek or Kazak or Kyrkiz, and then you could classify us the way you want. That's why when you say to an Ozbek you're originally a Turk, he'll disagree with you. I'm not the representative, alright? But what was Savdagar talking about? He, as an Ozbek, didn't believe he was a Turk. Anyhow, you might say 'your name shows it'. But I'd reply, 'Turkmen' is the name GIVEN to descendants of 9 Oghuz, especially by Iranians. Iranians classified all Turkic speaking people as 'Turk'; but this does not necessarily mean they were all from the core tribe 'Turk'.
 
The written language might be SOMEHOW understood; but definately, you won't understand much when it comes to hear the language. Even in written language, Turkish people don't understand word by word; but they would get the total meanig. This is anyhow for OFFICIAl language. Why are you neglecting the differences I've been talking about in 'Northern Turkmen vs Anatolian'? The STRUCTUREs are different.
 
I agree with you we've got a lot in common; just because we all are of the Turkic family. In most cases, we share the common Turkic heritage. Ofcourse, we are closer, compared to Kiptchaks. But, we're not as close as you might think. You haven't been here. Turks aren't considered as friendly as you might think. See, You and I have studied history. WE know we're classified as 'Turks' (althought we're not really Turks; let's say we're Turkic speaking). Now, ask a normal Turkmen, I mean somebody who'se not familiar with history, the same questions 'are you a Turk'?'. He would say 'no, I'm a Turkmen' right away. I know you'll say agian 'you're not the only Turkmen here'. Alright, but you haven't been in Turkmenistan. You're just using some online texts which are really questionable for their validity. I accept we're all Turk(ic speaking)s; but as a Turkmen, a Turk is a foreigner, somehow European for me. You THINK our cultures are similar. But the fact is that a Turkish is easily distinguished from a Turkmen at the first sight; because his LIFE and the way he behaves really differs from that of a Turkmen.
 
No, ..., YOU HAVEN'T ANSWER MY QUESTIONS; you're stating your own idea.
 
You just think so. Iranians honor people like 'Nadir Shah,'Safavids'. They believe Saljughiyans were the greatest empire in Iran's history. Also, Ghaznavids are described like this. The thing is that, you don't know anythig about all those famous Iranian books. Virtually all documents on Turks after then left Mongolia is Iranian.
 
You don't know anything about Turkmens, I told you. Tekkes are not the majority here. They're just owners of the parliament.
 
Realities? Tekkes relatives in Turkey, realties? The literal Tekke is different from that of Turkish. This is even farther than what you might think.
 
I'm not anoyed. YOU are all getting angry. I'm quite relaxed; it's very rare to find a Turkmen who thinks like you.
 


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 05:48
These are all Turkic legends and literature. Oghuz Qaqa is Turkmen's father (9 Oghuz), but Uighurs also claim Oghuz Qaqa is their father. In their Oghuznama, it's written 'men Uighurlarnyng qaghany men' (I'm Uighur's Kagan). They're not Oghuz. So what?
 
Try to defend yourself in 'Turkmen culture vs Anatolian' or 'Northen Turkmen vs Anatolian'. It seems like you're trying to put your thread on top of the others. Or you're not able to answer questions in my threads.
 
These are my own ideas, huh?
 
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14612&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14612&PN=1


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 07:13
About Koroghlu and Molla Nasreddin, you're just telling us about your own idea.

Really? would you care to read the sources I have given, none are my views there not even views of Turks which I purposely did to avoid bias.

Calling Nasreddin Hodja, Mollah Nasreddin just proves what I've been saying all along about your perspectives.

Now this time, try to actually read and understand that you do not hold the ultimate truth to everything in this world.


Celebration of anniversaries

The General Conference,

Having taken note of 146 EX/Decision 9.2 and 147 EX/Decision 8.7,

Decides that:

(a) UNESCO shall be associated in 1996-1997 with the following celebrations:

(xxix) seven hundredth anniversary of the death of the Turkish humorist Nasreddin

Hoca, Hodja ( Nasruddin, Goha) (1996);


http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0010/001018/101803E.pdf#search=%22Supports%20OAU%20Resolution%20CM%2FRES.1603%20(LXII)%20%20Nasreddin%20%22


This isn't my idea now is it....


The Turkish Jester by Hoca Nasreddin

Bibliographic Record Creator Nasreddin, Hoca
Translator Borrow, George Henry, 1803-1881
Title The Turkish Jester
or, The Pleasantries of Cogia Nasr Eddin Effendi


http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16244


Im not the founder of this book, it was translated in 1803 so I don't know how it can be "my views".


Nasreddin Hodja
Tales of the Turkish Trickster
D. L. Ashliman

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/hodja.html

http://www.cs.biu.ac.il/~schiff/Net/front.html

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/197103/a.man.of.many.names.htm


Nope, not my views either but these are examples of the facts and sources which are reliable and which I gather my knowledge on the subject from.

His tomb is in Turkey, his jokes are in Turkish he even has jokes about Persians, he's mentioned in Sari Saltuks Saltukname, works by Cem Sultan brother of Mehmed the Conqueror, in the Paris Bibilioteque, Evliya Celebi......... and so on

Between July 5-10 of each year, International Nasreddin Hodja Festival takes place in Aksheir, where his tomb is.


These are the realities my friend.

Koroglu is an epic for Turks, this isn't just "my idea" its a reality and if you really know about Turkmenistan you know it aswell.


You say Koroghlu was Turkmen; I say Ozbeks, but believe he was an Ozbek

He was a Turk at the time the Koroglu Epic first began there was no term such as "Ozbek", he was a Turk and the Koroglu Epic is repeated throughout Turk communities.

Well, I'll suggest 'Navayi' poems about Koroghlu.

You think Navayi was an Ozbek? Navayi influenced the Turks literary world immensely, his works helped flourish Ottoman Turkish literature also, like Fuzulli, Nedim, Baki.......

People of Turkmenistan are Turkmens. You're not from the core family of the empire GokTurk, to be considered Turk. You're Oghuz; but just as a contract, you classified as Turk (this does not mean you're Turk). For we Central Asians, we're first Turkmen or Ozbek or Kazak or Kyrkiz, and then you could classify us the way you want. That's why when you say to an Ozbek you're originally a Turk, he'll disagree with you.

This is extremely basic, I can't believe your comming up with such obscure ideas, so if you arn't directly related to the core family of GokTurks you can't be a Turk. You have real issues with trying to exclude people don't you, who gives You the right to determine who is and isn't whatever they percieve themselves to be.

It depends on whici Ozbek you ask, there are Ozbeks who don't disagree when you called a Turk, there not "originally" Turks, they are Turks. The new generation in Ozbekistan embraces this more than the generations before stuck under the Soviets who ingrained such ideas into people's minds.

Ozbek is a pollitical name, Turk is the ethnicity. There are Ozbeks who are Muslim first, there are Ozbeks who are Turk first there are older generation Ozbeks who are Ozbek first. Stop stereotyping people.

The written language might be SOMEHOW understood; but definately, you won't understand much when it comes to hear the language. Even in written language, Turkish people don't understand word by word; but they would get the total meanig. This is anyhow for OFFICIAl language. Why are you neglecting the differences I've been talking about in 'Northern Turkmen vs Anatolian'?

Because the Official Language is the Official Language not the Northern accents. Now there can ofcourse be regional accents and differences, others could come hear and present accents in Turkey or say Turkish Cypriot or Bulgarian or Gagauz Turkish accents find the most different sounding accent and try to present it as another language.

The North of Turkmenistan is not the most populated area and majority of people in Turkmenistan don't have this accent. So we cannot treat it as the representative of Turkmenistan.


I agree with you we've got a lot in common; just because we all are of the Turkic family. In most cases, we share the common Turkic heritage. Ofcourse, we are closer, compared to Kiptchaks. But, we're not as close as you might think. You haven't been here. Turks aren't considered as friendly as you might think. See, You and I have studied history. WE know we're classified as 'Turks' (althought we're not really Turks; let's say we're Turkic speaking). Now, ask a normal Turkmen, I mean somebody who'se not familiar with history, the same questions 'are you a Turk'?'. He would say 'no, I'm a Turkmen' right away. I know you'll say agian 'you're not the only Turkmen here'. Alright, but you haven't been in Turkmenistan.

I've told you before, I have been to Turkmenistan, I've been to Turkey and briefly to Azerbaijan. This is how I have picked up the many similarities. When I go to these places I know ofcourse there will be differences there is a large geographical distance. However, what amazes and suprises me what the people have in common. There is a clear bond, the people feel it, the social similairites, cultural, historical links can be seen, musical, traditional, culinary etc This is what I find interesting, how did they keep this alive. Turkish language is very versatile and has a strong foundation as the structure is more or less very similar even after living apart for nearly a thousand years in some cases.

I'm not as interested in differences because I expect there to be differences, its stating the obvious.

I was suprised how people in Turkey still feel alot of respect, love and a clear bond to Turkmens and Turkmenistan. They help them out, want to learn about Turkmenistan which is called "AtaYurdu", its amazing to see the people acknowledging this.

Now you have your ignorant, illeterates in all countries, only education and experience can set their minds free, we cannot take them as examples and ruin images of nations because of this minority.

Generally Turkmens do feel Turk and a bond to this as the word Turk is in Turkmen so its natural. But your correct about others, for example some Khirgiz. It depends from Turkic state to state, Kazak's have a stronger feeling of being Turk, Nazabayev says he's a real Turk and Kazak's are proper Turks.



I accept we're all Turk(ic speaking)s; but as a Turkmen, a Turk is a foreigner, somehow European for me. You THINK our cultures are similar. But the fact is that a Turkish is easily distinguished from a Turkmen at the first sight; because his LIFE and the way he behaves really differs from that of a Turkmen.

Your correct to an extent but a Turk is not seen as a "foreigner" in Turkmenistan and vica-versa in Turkey, its like a distant relative you havn't seen for years. Now you havn't seen this person for a long time however, could you call him/her "foreigner" ofcourse not and there would obviously be a bond, connection between the two and you'd both be suprised by what you have in common and be pleased about this.

Also you must not forget, there are many Turkmens in Urban areas now who adopt city life.

Personally I love the nomadic style, its for "freedom". Something suprising about alot of Turks in Turkey is that when you go into their homes they have all their Carpets, Blankets, Fabrics all folded up packed on top of each other in the corner as if their still on the move They like to spend most their time outside the house, they care more about the area they spend in outside the house than inside the house and can easily just get up leave an area and go to another part of Turkey or even other countries. I feel Turks in Turkey have a Semi-Nomadic spirit in them, most are now settled but they still have Nomadic tendancies. Many go to "Yayla" in Summer and move to Lowlands in Winter. They organise events "Senliks" and take Tents and stay there. Soon in "Erciyes" there will be a Kurultay, hundreds of thousands go with Tents and stay in the rural area.

These are all Turkic legends and literature. Oghuz Qaqa is Turkmen's father (9 Oghuz), but Uighurs also claim Oghuz Qaqa is their father. In their Oghuznama, it's written 'men Uighurlarnyng qaghany men' (I'm Uighur's Kagan).

The Oghuznama also is called Hun-Turk epic, its so old that its shared by all Turks as back then there was not as many Turk branches.
    

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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 12:22

I've provide you with some documents also. Becuase you don't know Persian or whatever, you think they're not trustable. How come I should accept only yours? You don't hold the ultimate truth in the world either. In fact, you lack reach to a great treasury of Iranian texts about Turks. You say Iranians are wrong when they say Molla Nasreddin was Iranian. Anybody could use the same sentence over you.

 
If they were Turks, so you can't use them to demonstrate a special relationship between two nations. These are common TURKIC HERITAGE, as you yourself mention.
 
Navayi was born Ozbek and spoke Ozbek. It has nothing to do with our conversation if he's affected the Turkic literature.
 
Does all people living in Turkey who speak Turkish and practice Turkish culture, have something to do with people of Ankara or Istanbul, since they are government's representatives (I mean governers live there)?
 
Ozbeks like Turkmens don't believe they're (first) Turk. I'm not the representative? Savdogar is.
 
'Tekke' wouldn't be the official language anymore as soon the government changes (not let's stick to our topic and leave Politics). Eastern Turkish people speak mostly a dialect very close to Azeri, rather than Istanbul Turkish. But when it comes to be accepted by your society, they all speak Istanbul Turkish, as the offical language. The same is for here. Why are giving me a headache Wink? 'Tekke' is not the most correct Turkmen. I'm not the representative? Ask any Turkmen online. Northern Turkmens MIGHT be in minority, but for sure, they're the people who've kept the best Turkmen language and culture.
 
You've got to define culture. If that's music, dances, language and things like that, we've been talking about this recently. In fact, THESE ARE THE CASES WHICH MAKE TURKMEN AND TURK DIFFERENT. I've told you before, at the time Seljuks lived in Turkmenistan, Turkmens were in Kazakstan.
 
By the way, I suppose you're getting me wrong. People love Turkmens or Turks. But what does it have to do with this topic? I love Jennifer Lopez Wink, but is she a Turkmen?
 
Generally, Turkmen don't feel Turk. They feel, first, Cenral Asians, and then, Turk might be a good class.
 
Turks are respected here (to some extent; at least until they don't exceed the limits); simply becuase everyone's trying to bridge the gap between Turkic Speaking countries and Turkey is the country wich has done a lot in this case. But, this doesn't make a Turk close to Turkmen. Turk is somehow, I told you, European style. Even a city dweller Turkmen is more traditional than a Turkish Turkmen.
 
Oghuznama is also a TURKIC HERITAGE. You can't use things like this and KorOghlu or Molla Nasreddin to relate Turkmens and Turks together. That's what I've been mentioning. Instead of these Turkic epics, bring live examples.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 12:26

By the way, I really appreciate this; I mean being more friendly. Things have come down. I hope this continues always like this.



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 15:13
You say Iranians are wrong when they say Molla Nasreddin was Iranian.
 
I say its wrong because the overwhelming facts, sources and realities explicitly point our Nasreddin Hodja was a Turk.
 
He's called a Turk by Unesco and now Internationally as the International Nasreddin Hodja festival is held in his home town of "Aksehir" Turkey everyyear. His tomb is there and even his tomb has a suprise joke of its own.
 
If he was Iranian we need proofs, documents, evidence, place of birth, place of death, commentary by locals and leaders in the area of that time.
 
But they don't, however, all the above are relevant to Nasreddin Hodja being a Turk. He even has jokes about Persian.
 
 
If they were Turks, so you can't use them to demonstrate a special relationship between two nations. These are common TURKIC HERITAGE, as you yourself mention.
 
Navayi was born Ozbek and spoke Ozbek. It has nothing to do with our conversation if he's affected the Turkic literature.
 
This is only relevant when non-Turks speak about Turks, in TUrkic communities they refer to each other as Turks and their language generally as "Turki". Navayi spoke as he puts it "Turki" and argued that it was an amazing medium for literature, in his Muhakamat al-Lughatayn ("Judgment between the Two Languages")
 
It is unfortunately true that the greater superiority, profundity and breadth of Turkish as compared to Persian as a medium for poetry has not yet been realized by everyone... In the early days of my youth I began to perceive a few jewels from the inkwell of my mouth. These jewels had not yet become a string of verse, but jewels from the sea of consciousness which were worthy of being placed on a string of verse began to reach shore, thanks to the nature of the diver. [...] Then I reached the age of comprehension and God (whose praises I recite and who be extolled!) instilled in me sensitivity and attentiveness and a desire for the unique. I realized the necessity of giving thought to Turkish words. The world which came into view was more sublime than 18,000 worlds, and its adorned sky, which I came to know, was higher than nine skies. There I found a treasury of superiority and excellence in which the pearls were more lustrous than the stars. I entered the rose garden. Its roses were more splendid than the stars of heaven, its hallowed ground was untouched by hand or foot, and its myriad wonders were safe from the touch of other hands.
 
I've told you before, at the time Seljuks lived in Turkmenistan, Turkmens were in Kazakstan.
 
Not all Seljuks migrated though and not all the Oguz Turks living in Turkmenistan before the mass migration left Turkmenistan area.
 
By the way, I suppose you're getting me wrong. People love Turkmens or Turks. But what does it have to do with this topic? I love Jennifer Lopez Wink, but is she a Turkmen?
 
Who knows, you know the Ottoman policy was to populate any new terrotory first with Turkmens so after they discovered the Carribean (Turks & Kayiks-Caicous islands) they also may have found Peurto Rico and Turkmens seeing the island was full of Jenifer Lopez's went there and married the woman and became rulers of the IslandLOL
 
I bring up that Turkmenistan-Turkey has bonds because it represents the connections and feeling that there related peoples.
 
Even a city dweller Turkmen is more traditional than a Turkish Turkmen.
 
Visit areas outside the major big cities, visit Turkmens in Afyon-Emirdag, Eskisehir, Central Anatolia, Eastern Anatolia, Toros Southern Anatolia you'll see many very traditional Turks keeping Turkmen tradditions which have been preserved for hundreds of years, you'll be suprised.
 
Oghuznama is also a TURKIC HERITAGE. You can't use things like this and KorOghlu or Molla Nasreddin to relate Turkmens and Turks together. That's what I've been mentioning.
 
GarajaOglan can thoughSmile and the Ottoman Kayi Banner, the Beyliks-Atabeks Tamga's showing they were from Turkmenistan area and that some Turkmen tribes today have the same signs. Gorkut Ata-Korkut Dede also. I will post the Turkmen motives in  the Turkmen Carpets in today;s Turkey, the musical heritage of Turkey which derives from Turkmenistan etc etc later aswell.
 

By the way, I really appreciate this; I mean being more friendly. Things have come down. I hope this continues always like this.

MendeSmileSag bol (Turkmens are known for being fiery, stubborn, hospitable and friendly I think this post shows itTongue)


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 05:12

We should forget about Molla Nasreddin and people like this; cause you've got your own proofs which I don't accept (!!!) and I've got mine wich you don't accept (!!!).

Buddy, it's just paradox. If he's an Ozbek, so you can't use him to say Turkmen and Turks are somehow the same people. By the way, in Turkic communities like Central Asia, people use the names 'Turkmenche', 'Ozbekche', 'Kazakcha' and 'Kyrkizcha'.  We don't say we speak Turkic (thought we speak it!)
 
Let's leave the argued topic. Seljuks are said to be ancestors of modern Turkish people which inhabited Turkmenistan sometime in the history. At the time, Turkmens used to live in Kazakstan.
 
Oh, I hadn't thought of that!!! You might be right when talking about the Island and Jennifer Lopez!!! Anyhow, we ARE somehow related. I'm just talking we're not the same people. We're of different GEOGRAPHICAL groups. I don't say we're not connected. We are; but to some extent which is the common Turkic heritage.
 
Please, it really seems like you're advertising. Anybody from Turkey is really like a westerner compared to a Turkmen. You just CAN'T compare them.
 
All those 'tamgha' s are for 24 Sihun Oghuz tribes. TURKMENS ARE CONSISTED OF 9 TRIBES.
 
These are rather Turkic. S, I, myself, think we can't use them as a proof.
 
We, for sure, are. But, this is the cyber world. You can't see anybody. That's why we've got such conflicts Wink.
 
We've been talking about musical instruments on 'Turkmen culture vs Anatolian' lately, with Kotumeyil. Although of Kiptchak origin, but Kazak 'dombra' is much more similar to Turkmen than the Turkish one.
 
About carpets, we'll see the differences soon.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 12:48
We should forget about Molla Nasreddin and people like this; cause you've got your own proofs which I don't accept (!!!) and I've got mine wich you don't accept (!!!).
 
 I've never seen any credible proof, evidence, sources that Nasreddin Hodja was Iranian, if you could show that he was I'd be more than happy to analyse the material. I have read info by some Iranians claiming he was Iranian but it has no substance, basically because they know some of his sotries they think he was Iranian. There is no proof he lived in Iran, died there, that the locals knew and said he lived there etc etc etc
 
Today the centre of Nasreddin Hodja is "Aksehir" Turkey, he's known as being Turkish, all information written on him by locals, officials of state
even from other countries point out he was a Turk, this is internationally accepted.
 
 
Buddy, it's just paradox. If he's an Ozbek, so you can't use him to say Turkmen and Turks are somehow the same people. By the way, in Turkic communities like Central Asia, people use the names 'Turkmenche', 'Ozbekche', 'Kazakcha' and 'Kyrkizcha'.  We don't say we speak Turkic (thought we speak it!)
 
Your correct to a certain extent but alot of people especially Ozbeks, Uygur, Afgan Turkmens Ozbeks and Turkmens among themselves will say they speak "Turki" when someone outside
the area asks they can say Ozbek or Turki it depends on the person.
 
In Iran Turks say they speak "Turki" they don't say Azerice.
 
Let's leave the argued topic. Seljuks are said to be ancestors of modern Turkish people which inhabited Turkmenistan sometime in the history. At the time, Turkmens used to live in Kazakstan.
 
 But the Ottoman Kayi Clan was also from Kazakstan area initially then migrated to Turkmenistan an the todays Turkey.
The Kayi have a clear connection to Turkmenistan, the Turkmenistan State
has sources about the "banner/tamga" which is from Turkmenistan and used by
the Ottomans.
 
 
All those 'tamgha' s are for 24 Sihun Oghuz tribes. TURKMENS ARE CONSISTED OF 9 TRIBES.
 
But there are tribes from the 24 Legendary Oghuz also inhabbit Turkmenistan today and Azerbaycan and TUrkey.
 
 
We've been talking about musical instruments on 'Turkmen culture vs Anatolian' lately, with Kotumeyil. Although of Kiptchak origin, but Kazak 'dombra' is much more similar to Turkmen than the Turkish one.
 
The whole "Ozan" culture derives from Turks-Turkmens and was directly bought from the Turkmenistan area to todays
Turkey and even influenced other nations in the region aswell. The "Ozan"
with some form of "Baglama" is the basic's of this and is still so popular. "Turku"
musical culture is probobly the most famous, loved and respected style of music
in Turkey and Azerbaycan. The "Epics" of Garacaoglan are examples of the great
"Ozans".
 

 


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 15:48
Gok_toruk said "Turkmens where at Kazakhstan at that time" IIRC, so i'll ask some questions to him:

-where they also called as "Turkmen" when they where in Kazakhstan (wich i dont remember it)? Yes or No?
 
-if NO, then how dare you to say we (middle eastern to balkan Turkmens) arent "real" (or igi, qul as they say it out there) Turkmen then if you are self being not one at that time, wich our ancestors where called so by youre so-trusted Iranian (and even arabic) historians?


Im searching after the logic.


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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg -


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 17:33

Dayi I think Gok_Toruk is trying to explain that the Northern Turkmenisatan tribes are from the Kazakistan region.

As we all know there are the same tribe/clans of Turkmens in Turkmenistan,, Turkey, Azerbaycan, Iran, Balkans. So many examples can be given, Tahtaci Turkmens, Kayi branch, Cepni, Bayat etc etc and today's Official Turkmenistan Turki is based on this, they are mostly in the South and West like "Balkan Welayet".
 
Gok_Toruk is pointing out that there are also tribes which didn't migrate at all to the West and others which migrated to Tukrmenistan region later.
 
However, in a world of increasing division, animoscity and conflict
I love to embrace bonds, similarities and connections rather than focus on trying to divide and isolate people. This is why I focus on what the people have in common and they have alot in common.
 
Iraki Turkmens, Balkan Turkmens, Turkey Turks, Azerbaycan Turks etc feel Turkmenistan area to be their homeland before the big migrations, there is respect and love to the "AtaYurdu". This is a reality.
 
Lets stop attacking each other and splitting people into real/un-pure Turks and accept people for what they are and promote brotherhood.
 
Hopefully this topic can continue without bickerin again, sometimes we don't mean to cause offense and can be mis-understood. It's like that famous Turk phrase
 
"In life one person understood me and even he understood me wrong"Tongue
 
Lets explain ourselves better and promote our friendships and closeness.


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 10:18

That's because you don't know Farsi. To anytime you might continue, but just the way you claim he was Turk, Iranians claim he was Iranian.

Only Turkish and Azeri people believe they speak Turkish. No Turkmen, no Ozbek, no Kazak and no Kyrkiz is like this.

Kayi tribe is one of the southern tribe. In fact, they live (and sometimes considered) with Koklengs who inhabited northeastern Iran and southern Turkmenistan border.

By the way, let me explain something here. When I say Turkmens were livign in Kazakstan at the time, I mean the major 9 tribes. The tribes like 'Kayi' was never a major tribe. It's just a sub family; not even a junior 'boy'.

Turkmens are consisted of 9 tribes; not 24. Why should we repeat the same sentences?

'Ozan' was specific to Sihun Oghuz tribes. Turkmens don't use it. We use 'baqshy'. I explained 'Baghlama' and 'Tamdra' are not similar.



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 10:23

We expect more form you Dayi. 9 Oghuzes were called Turkmens after living Mongolia. 'Turkmen', 'Ozbek,'Kazak' and 'Kyrkiz' are all national names. So could we say, how could you dare to say you lived in Mongolia when there was no name 'Turkmen', 'Kazak', 'Ozbek' or 'Kyrkiz'?

Is that the logic you're searching for? 9 Oghuz were distinguished from Sihun Oghuzes.
 
By the way, there was not much famous Turkish historians at the time. Iranians are the historians who have written the most about Turks after living Mongolia. In fact, it was always Turks who rulled after the greatest Iranian empire (Kharazmshahid) until to governments like Zandi. This is almost 1000 years.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 10:34

All I'm trying to say is 9 Oghuz and Sihun Oghuzes were not the same tribal confederation. The 9 major Turkmen tribes all lived in Kazakstan (first) before coming to Turkmenistan. 'Kayi' is not a major tribe; it's just a sub-family which is of southern tribes. You're only talking about 2 'southern' tribes Kokleng and Yomut while there exist also 7 other tribes which are really different from Turkish. We are 9 tribes which are different from your 24 tribes.

I might be blind anyhow to see such similarities! Maybe that's why I prefer to say we only share things which are common among most of Turks.

Iraki and Anatolian Turkmens speak a dialect similar to Azeri; in fact Iraqi Turkmen language is considered a dialect of Azeri. We haven't got much in common. A Turkish (let's say any stranger) is easily recognized at the first sight in Turkmeistan. Ozbeks, Kyrkizes and Kazaks are not of Oghuz origin. But, they are closer to Turkmens that Anatolian people. Turkish people are somehow like westerners.

We don't attack. I explained you why Turkmens use 'qul' and 'igi'. Why should you feel offended?


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 10:47
Originally posted by gok_toruk

We expect more form you Dayi. 9 Oghuzes were called Turkmens after living Mongolia. 'Turkmen', 'Ozbek,'Kazak' and 'Kyrkiz' are all national names. So could we say, how could you dare to say you lived in Mongolia when there was no name 'Turkmen', 'Kazak', 'Ozbek' or 'Kyrkiz'?

They wherent called "Turkmen, ozbek, kazak" or whatever earlyer then that i guess. Chinese knew much more about Turks then the Iranians, they describe us better then those. Also didnt the name Turkmen existed after the Iranians called them "Turk-a manend" or something?

Is that the logic you're searching for? 9 Oghuz were distinguished from Sihun Oghuzes.
sorry i have to read more about "Sihun oghuz" and "9 oghuz", first time i hear sihun oghuz but i trust you and research after it. 

 
By the way, there was not much famous Turkish historians at the time. Iranians are the historians who have written the most about Turks after living Mongolia. In fact, it was always Turks who rulled after the greatest Iranian empire (Kharazmshahid) until to governments like Zandi. This is almost 1000 years.
No no, dont think what is written in Persian is written by a persian, there where Turkish historians in those times who where appointed by the rulers to write it.



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Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg -


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 11:03
Even Chinese historians mentioned Sihun Oghuzes besides from 9 Oghuzes. They were consisted of 10 tribes and whose languag was different from 9 Oghuz.
 
It's just the way Iranian linguists guess the derviation of the word 'Turkmen' should be like this.

Iranian documents about Turks were written by famous Iranians like 'Beyhaghi' and 'Bal'ami'; not Turks.



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 11:04
Even Chinese historians mentioned Sihun Oghuzes besides from 9 Oghuzes. They were consisted of 10 tribes and whose languag was different from 9 Oghuz.
 
It's just the way Iranian linguists guess the derviation of the word 'Turkmen' should be like this.

Iranian documents about Turks were written by famous Iranians like 'Beyhaghi' and 'Bal'ami'; not Turks.



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 11:56
That's because you don't know Farsi. To anytime you might continue, but just the way you claim he was Turk, Iranians claim he was Iranian.

Why don't you just accept the Internationally accepted reality regarding this matter.

If he was Persian and if there was sufficient evidence, sources and material to proove this it would have been translated to all languages.

There is alot of material proving he was a Turk and this has been translated into all languages.

He was a Turk, his tomb is today in Aksehir, visit during the International Nasreddin Hodja festival held in the area every-year. If you can prove otherwise please go ahead, if not stop with the rhetorical statements.

I could say he was Chinease because his works had been translated into Chinease, loved by Chinease and so on, this wouldn't make him Chinease.

Also, Persians arnt the only people in Iran, they are just 40% while Turks are also 40%, seen as though there are so many Turks its natural that they could have bought the stories over and made them popular in Iran.

Only Turkish and Azeri people believe they speak Turkish. No Turkmen, no Ozbek, no Kazak and no Kyrkiz is like this.

Turkish is an English word and term.

In Central Asians many say they speak "Turki", they may also say "Turkmence" or "Ozbekce" but they can also say "Turki" especially among themselves.


By the way, let me explain something here. When I say Turkmens were livign in Kazakstan at the time, I mean the major 9 tribes. The tribes like 'Kayi' was never a major tribe. It's just a sub family; not even a junior 'boy'.

Well there are Kayi in Turkmenistan and Turkey

Turkmens are consisted of 9 tribes; not 24.

Depends which Turkmen your referring to, the Southern part where majority lives has many of the 24 and have the same accent.

'Ozan' was specific to Sihun Oghuz tribes. Turkmens don't use it. We use 'baqshy'. I explained 'Baghlama' and 'Tamdra' are not similar.

There is Ozan also Ashyg, ofcourse Baghlama and Tamdra are similar the Baghlama is derived from Tamdra. Also there are many types of Baghlama and sizes, I was suprised to see that Uygur Turks playing a Baghlama also played in Turkey.

Theres also "Turku"/folk-balads which are shared, for example I heard "Nar Agci" in Turkmenistan, Azerbaycan and Turkey.

Songs said by Turk mothers to their babies

Allay allay derim
Baga sallan edeyim
Bagıng gızıl gülünü
Sanga Gurban

Tongue Twister of Turkmenistan known and can be read by Azerbaycan, Turkey, Iran, Balkan, KKTC....Turks

Ekem ekem
Arpa çekem
Yola bakam
Gözüm dikem
Gızıl tavuk
Girma tavuk
Ginnarda tavuk
Cek Ayak

A tougher one

Hanım atı kişneyer
Neme diyip kişneyer
Arpa diyip kişneyer
Arpanı nirden alcak
Çayın düybü çokca gül
Bizim yaren akchagul


Havar Havar Can Hatice (Turkmenistan) Also a Turku in Turkey and Azerbaycan

Yatırdım yatırdım dan sesine
Tiskindim tiskindim can sesine

Havar havar can Hatice
Gözleri mercan Hatice
Ben sana kurban Hatice

Ayağına başmak yaraşır
Eynine giymek yaraşır

Havar havar can Hatice
Gözleri mercan Hatice
Ben satıa kurban Hatice

Yap aşağın çay eledi
Tafta köyneğin lay eyledi

Havar havar can Hatice
Gözleri mercan Hatice
Ben sana kurban Hatice

Garajaoglan

“Ben bilirim bana dilimden oldu”
“Boynuna farz olan beşi bilin mi”
“Nuh’un tufanını bilin mi meşe”
“Hele dur bakalım sağlar kalır mı”

Turkmen Wedding Dortluks

İki yorgan bir düşen,
Tahtın bolsun, yar-yar.
Pıgamberin gızıça
Bagtın bolsun, yar-yar.

Altın kabak atılan
Öyün bolsun, yar-yar
Cemendäni cem eden
Toyun bolsun, yar-yar

By the way, there was not much famous Turkish historians at the time.

That's not the case, there was many

Yazyjy ogly Ali The History of the Turkmen- Seljuks. The manuscript of this work is mentioned under the title Taryhi eli Seljuk ( History of the Seljuks’ Ancestors) and Oghuznamah but according to the scientists- historians it was more famous as Seljuknamah or The History of the Turkmen-Seljuks which corresponds to the main contents of the narration.

11th Century Mahmud Qashqary

Uygur Turks were the Clerks in the region, they wrote down the history of Mongols and their own histories in the region.       

15th Century Fuad Koprulu

15th Century Asikpasazade

16th Century Evliya Celebi

16th Century Hoca Sadeddin Efendi

17th Century Katib Celebi and Naima

etc etc etc



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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 12:01
Gok_Toruk your the problem is that your mixing very early Turk history and tribal unions nearly 2000 years old with more recent Tribal Unions like the Legendary 24 Oghuz.

Its well known that the Oghuz Turk branch which inhabbits most Turk populated areas Westof the Caspian Sea were mainly from today's Turkmenistan, Kalpak region Ozbekistan and Southern Kazakistan region. Predominantly they were from Turkmenistan and still there are many of the same large tribes/clans in the region.



-------------
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 12:44
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/

i'll give the link now, but check it later when i have time todo.


-------------
Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg -


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 04:50

You're repeating it all the time. The same I can use 'why don't you accept Iranians'? By the way, Iranian documents about Molla Nasreddin are not just translations. By the way, Iranians are the majority. What's that 40 percent?

You're teaching me how we call our language? Bulldog, you're respected, alright. But you don't know people here. Nobody says 'I speak Turki' here.

All Turkmens are consisted of 9 tribes. The southern tribes are 'Yomut' and 'Kokleng'. That's it. They are of 9 Turkmen tribes. They haven't go 24 tribes.

'Ozan' is anyhow specific to Sihun Oghuz tribes. The language and the poems are also for southern tribes.

These books are not that much famous compared to, for instance, Iranian 'Tarikh-e Beyhaghi'. You say Iranians are not the only writers. Alright, but they're among the most famous writers of Turks' history.



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 04:52
It's not a 'mixing'. Sihun Oghuz tribes and 9 Oghuz tribes were not the same.
 
Also, tribes like 'kayi' are one of the smallest sub - families which live in th border (Turkmenistan and Iran). It's not a tribe; it's a sub-family.


-------------
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 08:43

You're repeating it all the time. The same I can use 'why don't you accept Iranians'? By the way, Iranian documents about Molla Nasreddin are not just translations.

I don't accept it because there are no credible sources, evidence or facts to prove this theory. However, there is the above for him being a Turk. His stories are not just in Iranian languages, also Balkan, Middle East, North Africa, recently also in Europe. It doesn't mean he's from there and they all accept he was a Turk.
 
You're teaching me how we call our language? Bulldog, you're respected, alright. But you don't know people here. Nobody says 'I speak Turki' here.
 
People among themselves do also say Turki, "Menim tilim Turki", generally to an outsider they would also say Turkmenche but Turki is not alien.

All Turkmens are consisted of 9 tribes. The southern tribes are 'Yomut' and 'Kokleng'. That's it. They are of 9 Turkmen tribes. They haven't go 24 tribes.

But there are the same tribes in all three countries, Turkmenistan, Turkey, Azerbaycan obivously not all are the same but there are same ones as there root is all in Turkmenistan.
 
 
 
These books are not that much famous compared to, for instance, Iranian 'Tarikh-e Beyhaghi'. You say Iranians are not the only writers. Alright, but they're among the most famous writers of Turks' history.
 
There very famous ones, for example Fuad Koprulu was read and studied in Europe when learning about Turks. In Cambridge University there is the "Koprulu Scholorship program".
 
Hoca Sadeddin Efendi's, "Crown of Histories" which is of many volumes is very important.
 
There are over 40 Seferatname's, "the book of the embassy", which are detailed works of areas from Kashgar to London.
 
The Seyahatname of Evliya Celebi is very important.
 
Also have you read Arab historians, "Ibn Battuta"? he describes the Turks in Anatolia in detail, you can see there clearly that they are Oghuz Turkmen, also "Ibn Khaldun" works are very important.
 
The Arabs also have alot of history and contact with Turks, don't forget that Mahmud Kashgary's great work was made for the Caliph of Baghdad to explain the history, language, culture and importance of Turks.
 
Asikpasazade, Kati Celebi and so on are good to learn.
 
 


-------------
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 09:06
Interest in the history and culture of our ancient land is increasing from year to year and the Turkmen welcomes its friends. It is stated in Ruhnama, the book reflecting the spiritual essence of the Turkmen people: “We say welcome to all the guests of this land! Tourists from all over the world, you are welcome to our country. Our doors and our souls are open for you. Make an excursion to the history and visit the land of Oghuz Khan, Seljuk Khan, Alp Arslan, Myalik Shah, Sultan Sanjar, Gerogly and Magtymguly.”

State Information Agency of Turkmenistan (TDH)
 
 
 
This was on the Turkmenistan tourism page, the leaders mentioned there are loved, respected and seen as the "Ata's" fore-fathers of Azerbaycan and Anatolian Turks aswell.
 
 
 
 
Oghuz Khan statue in Turkmenistan




-------------
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2006 at 12:14
If so, how come you only believe your Turkish history. This remains controversial forever. I told you these Turkic people can't show a certain relationship.
 
You don't know the people here. Tell to a Turkmen 'you speak Turki' and he would answer you right away 'no,...'. You dont' know the situation here.
 
We discussed it before. 9 Turkmen tribes are quite different from Turkey. By the way, Turk tribes in Azerbaican are all immigrant from Anatolia. Azerbaican has not got tribal confederation (except for immigrants from Anatolia).
 
Turkish history books can't be compared to old Iranian text, that's a fact. Or else we had a famous old Turkish history book (as old as books like 'Tarikh-e Beyhaghi).
 
Turks of Turkey are for sure, Oghuzes; but Sihun Oghuzes; unlike Turkmens who are 9 Oghuzes.


-------------
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: shinai
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 18:19
Hi guys, I am new to the form, I agree with gok_toruk, there is very minimum connection between Turkey, azerbaijan, and Turkmenistan.
I have spent two years in Gonbad e kavus and I had lots of turkmen budies. Turkmen have their own culture based on the old Oghuz culture.
The Turks of eastern Anatolia and Azerbaijanies used to  share a common  turkic culture but I say not anymore.Eastern anatolia is under greeko balkan culture of the western Turkey and
Azerbaijan is Almost Persianized.
ABout the Molla Nasreddin I think He was from somewher in middle east, it could be Turkey, Iran, Irak evan Turkminestan


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 18:50
I'm not even gonna begin with getting into any sort of debate with someone who lacks even basic knowledge about the subject of this post, there are more holes in that last post than Swiss Cheese.
 
 
Gok_Toruk
If so, how come you only believe your Turkish history.
 
You do realise all the sources I'm posting are Turkmen posts? and official Turkmenistan material from the state.
 
 
Gok_Toruk
You don't know the people here. Tell to a Turkmen 'you speak Turki' and he would answer you right away 'no
 
Really? what makes you so sure, as I've said before, you may not be the only Turkmen round here. If you said Turki nobody would say, no how dare you make such a comment.
 
 
Gok_Toruk
We discussed it before. 9 Turkmen tribes are quite different from Turkey. By the way, Turk tribes in Azerbaican are all immigrant from Anatolia. Azerbaican has not got tribal confederation
 
Turks from Azerbaycan were there before Oghuz Turks moved to Turkey. The Bayats, Afshars, AkKoyunlu, KaraKoyunlu and so on all had tribal confederacies. The Qashqai have one of the largest tribal confederacies in existance today infact.
 
Again, Turkey Turks are from Turkmenistan area, there forefathers still live in Turmenistan and are the majority population.
 
So why do you keep on trying to claim that all of Turkmenistan has nothing to do with Turkey Turks.
 
The official State Language today in Turkmenistan is one which is comprehendable by Azerbaycan and Turkey Turks. You say its because its the Southern Turkmen that's official but the majority of Turkmen speak it and in a generation or two it will be a national standard.
 
If it was percieved as a problem, "Ak-Saqals" would raise it in the Parliment, Turkmenbashi has respect for them.
 
 
Gok_Toruk
Turkish history books can't be compared to old Iranian text, that's a fact.
 
Yes they can.
 
And if your referring to "old Turkic history" ie prior 500-400 AD then Iranian sources are no good. Its Chinease sources which have a wealth of knowledge going back to 1800 BC regarding contact with Turkic peoples.
 
The countries Turkmenistan, Azerbaycan, Turkey are all promoting connections in their history, culture and identity, hence the phrase of there being these countries but one nationWink These connections are not just romantic today either. They are economic, national projects, eduational projects, boosting country closness and relations.


-------------
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 18:57
Some common phrases
 
 
"Birin birin ming bolar, tama tama köl tolar."
 
"Damlaya damlaya göl olur"
 
 
 "Bal tutan parmağını yalar"

Altay  "Bal tutkan barmagın yalar."

Özbekistan "Bal tutan parmağını yalar." 

Türkmenistan "Bal tutan pargını yalar."

 
Türkmenistan"Gılıç yarası biter, dil yarası bitmez."
 
The wound from a knife can heal, the wound from the mouth never heals
 
Meaning : Phycical wounds can heal and be forgotten, however, phychological wounds from words may never heal and always be remembered leave somthone heart-broken and emotionally hurt - Its emphasising the power of words, so be carefull at what you say.
 
Türkmenistan "Boş çuwal dik durmaz."
 
Empty Sack doesnt stay Upright
 
Meaning : Don't be fooled by "image", a person could try to look big and important but if its all image and the personallity/heart is weak they'll topple like an empty sack.
 
 
 
Türkmenistan"Dag daga sataşmaz, adam adama sataşar."
 
"Mountain doesn't hug a moutain, only man can hug man" 

Özbekistan "İt hurar, karvan otar."

Türkmenistan'"İt üyrer, kerwen geçer."

Türkmenistan "Gızım sanga aydayıng gelinim sen düş."
 
Türkmenistan "Sütde ağzı bişen suwı üflâp içer."
 
Turkiye"Sütten ağzı yanan ayranı üfleyerek içer." Tongue
 
"Taş koptuğu yerde ağır olur."
 
Üzüm üzüme baka baka kararır
 
 
etc,etc,etc


-------------
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: shinai
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 01:17

Hey Bulldog budy why you are so angry I have already watched  all the postings, I have spent enough time between Turkmens and I am an Azeri,

I have lived in Azerbaijan, I know what I mean, Turkmens are diffrent from Azeries and turkish turks.
They are gentically and phisically Turk.
Azerbaijanies are not from turkish origin evrybody knows that.
I donot say that they are persian, or kurd but they are not Turkic.
I was in Tabriz in last Agust.
Most of the Azeris I saw was similar to Persians even to Pakistanies.
abou Anatolian turks I can say they are amixture of Turks and Greeks.
Take it easy man


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 03:57
The sources are COMMON TURKIC HERITAGE. They're all true; but they don't give us any fact that can relate Turkmens adn Turks of Anatolia to a unique society.
 
I'm not the only representative for Central Asia here, right. But you people also tried to convince Savdogar he spoke Turki and not Ozbek. What was his response, you think?
 
People of Turkey are oghuzes. So are Turkmens. But one is from 9 Oghuzes and the other from Sihun Oghuzes. Majority of people in Turkmenistan doesn't speak Southern Dialects.
 
No, they can't. There doesn't exist any famous Turkish history book which is written in those periods we're talking about. Alright, let's say Iranian documents are not that much famous. Chinese sources also have mentioned 9 Oghuzes and Sihun Oghuzes as different gerographical groups.
 
I'm not an idealist...


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 04:01

By the way, what's wrong with Shinai? He's an Azeri and as a witness, he's been among Turkmens. He's talking about his own interpretations. He's not on your side, but this should't make you get angry or use bad language 'somebody who doesn't know basic knowledge'.



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 07:22
I didn't use bad language, that last comment was subjective and not relative to reality.
 
Shinai
They are gentically and phisically Turk.
 
You should read the new ruling on these silly ideas of "race" in this forum. Were not fond of people who push racist theories and try to determine people by "race", "purity" "looks".
 
You do realise there is one race and that is the Human Race.
 
All nations are mere branches of this.
 
What seperates us is basically culture, the language, history, identity etc these make a nation/ethnicity, race has little to do with it.
 
They are Turks because they percieve themselves to be Turks, speak Turkic language, share a common Turkic heritage, cultural connections and bonds.
 
It doesn't matter if your, black, white, oriental, mixed or anything else.
 
Gok_Toruk not everyone in Turkmenistan is 9 or Sihun Oghuz, you don't have a record of everybody in Turkmenistan, there can be people such as Pakistani's, Persian, Arab, Black African, Chinease and so on. Turkmen men have married other woman, the children become Turkmen growing up in Turkmen society.
 
So you simply cannot bring the "racial" argument up its not credible. After a few generations the people of other ethnicities generally assimilate into the majority. Are they therefore not Turkmen? they speak the language, feel a Turkmen, are a Turkmen, are accepted as such, live the culture, the traditions, embrace the history and the heritage.
 
Shinai
Azerbaijanies are not from turkish origin evrybody knows that.
 
They are from Human origin. Azerbaycan is not mono-ethnic there always has been migration and mixing throughout the ages, how can anybody talk about "origins" in such a case.
 
The "national" origin is a Turkic one, ie Language, culture, history, heritage, traditions, identity and so on....
 
Their identity is a Turkish one, everbody knows thatWink
 
 
Gok_Toruk
The sources are COMMON TURKIC HERITAGE. They're all true; but they don't give us any fact that can relate Turkmens adn Turks of Anatolia to a unique society.
 
Who said there the same? nobody, were just pointing out the connections and there are many.
 
Gok_Toruk
I'm not the only representative for Central Asia here, right.
 
How do you know I'm not TurkmenWink
 
Plus Shirin was here, he feels there is a strong connection like me, other's signature are "Turkmenistan Turkiye Iki dovlet bir millet"Smile
 
I visited Turkey many times and have seen branches from the same tribes in Turkmenistan there. The Tahtaci are just like the ones in Turkmenistan its amazing, really you should also see them.
 
They knew, "Bar mi?"
 
Look at this clip, can you say there not Turkmen?
 
http://turksoylaipekyolu.com/tr/ses/a.714.html - http://turksoylaipekyolu.com/tr/ses/a.714.html
 
There are so many Tekke and Yomud Turkmens in Turkey, them and others Turkified Anatolia. Teke and Yomud are important clans of Turkmenistan today. Infact the province of Antalya and Karaman untill the foundation of the Turkiye Republic was called the TEKE PROVINCE. It was the Karaman Turkmen Beylik who made Turkish the official and only language in all state affairs. There role is fundamental in Turkey.
 
(They picked a beautiful place, Antalya and Karaman is like a paradise on EarthTongue)
 
There are also Salor's and other tribes.
 
 
 
A Turkey Turkmen carpet uses Teke-Gul.
 
  
 
Gok_Toruk
Majority of people in Turkmenistan doesn't speak Southern Dialects.
 
Most people in Mary, Balkan, Ahal Weleyat do. Its now the official state language. Lots of Turkmen tribe have various accents but in the future there will be a more uniformed one.
 
 


-------------
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: shinai
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 12:59
Hi guys again.
myself I donot belive in race, but in the case of oghuz Tribes, It is well documented by arabs and Persians that they had cat eyes.The Turmen music has similariries with Iranian music between Persian in Trobat, and is differnt from Azeri music.
Azeri music is pureley Persian.
About Turkish music I can say that it is my favorite music, I love it, but it is also different from Azeri music.
 


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 13:39
Today most Turks have more @cat eyes@ than their neighbours Tongue alot of their neighbours and rounder eyes.
 
Again, your looking at the matter "black and white" again. Turkmen music is original and has influenced a region from Turkmenistan to the Balkans. The music of Azeri and Turkey Turks is thanks to the Turkmen plus adopting instruments and sounds from the areas they migrated to.
 
The Kopuz is an ancient Turkic instrument and forefather of Baglama's and similar stringed instruments.
 
The Mehter Marsi bands were an age old Turkic millitary tradition, reference is made to Millitary bands in the Orkon inscriptions. They influenced Europe and great composers like Mozart, who wrote the Turkish March and used Turkish influences in a few of his works aswell as Beethoven's Sympthany 9. Turks influence introduced Symbols, Bass Drum and Bells into the sympthany orchastre.

The Baglama's, Cogur, Tambura, Cumbus, Davul, Kos, Cevgen, Bell type instrument etc etc...... were introduced from Central Asia and are now used in many areas and regions.
Folklore, Dances and musical culture such as Ciftetelli, Zeybek, Bar, Turkmen Oyunlari, Sufi-Mevlana, Alevi Sema etc etc etc have also influenced the surrounding region.
 
Persian music and Azeri have similarities and differences, the dances also are different indeed.
 
The Azeri "mugam" was proclaimed a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpieces_of_the_Oral_and_Intangible_Heritage_of_Humanity - Masterpiece of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity by Unesco. Its a tradition of Central Asia.
 
The "Meddah"/"Dastan" teller, style of one person story telling/drama/theatre/songs and so on was also proclaimed a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpieces_of_the_Oral_and_Intangible_Heritage_of_Humanity - Masterpiece of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity by Unesco and is common to Turkic communities.
 
The "Ozan" culture of singing, music and dance is instrumental to Azeri style of music.
 
"Turku's" are the people's music and very popular, there are thousands of these songs. There are many common Turku's to Turkey-Azerbaycan-Turkmenistan. Then there are common themes, Koroglu, Dede Korqut, Garajaoglan and so on. Turkic people's have songs for everything and always sing, its a very musical society.
 
Turkic music has always been popular and still is.

 


-------------
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: shinai
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 15:16
Hi guys, I do not say there is no connection becuase we are all muslims, but it is not more than the connection between Turkish culture and Persian culture.our dans and music is different.
The dans which is known as Azerbaijani dans is not azerbaijani , it is from caucas, in Iranian azerbiajn ( which is the histrorical azerbaijan land), folk dans is Persian dans. Unfortunately the culture in Azerbiajan republic has been introduced to the world as azerbijani culture.Even their language is diffrent from azerbabijani.
 I can say I feel myself more closer to Persians than azerbiajanies from caucase culturally.
 About the oghuz tribes I think it is the origin for Turkmens and Turks in Turkey, but not azerbaijan I am sure even a normal guy have not heard about it and they do not know what does it mean. I have not seen anybody knows about Grey Wolf or Ergenekon.
I do not have any idea that how Azeries speak a Turkic language without  having a Turkic culture.
I was in Turkey in jan 2000 and it was one of my best trips, I liked Turkish culture and i found it very reach. But In Turkey I saw how different we are .
Everybody mistakes the Azeries with kurds, becasue we both have dark skin.  The foods are completely different. I found Turks very nice, but I had to first say that I was not a Kurd or Arab.
 
Turkmens are very different , I never forget the sun shine in turkmensahra,It is Steps ,steps and only steps, I wasgreat. Their kids know how to ride a horse even when they are very young. They were step warriors.Any how these days Even Turkmens prefer motor cyclets to the horses.
The Turkmen foods are also different.
I found Foods in Turkey similar to the arabic foods, in azerbaijan similar to persian's.
 
Again I want to say that we are all from smae origin , African Adam.
 
Koroghli and dede kurkut should not be related to azerbiajn, they could be from Turkmen or Turkey, They are not local names in Azerbaijan, Hazrat ali, His Brother Hazrat Abbas, and Iranian Rustam are Azerbijanies heros.
 


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 16:49

Shinai

The dans which is known as Azerbaijani dans is not azerbaijani , it is from caucas, in Iranian azerbiajn ( which is the histrorical azerbaijan land), folk dans is Persian dans. Unfortunately the culture in Azerbiajan republic has been introduced to the world as azerbijani culture.Even their language is diffrent from azerbabijani.
 
Hmm, well some Azerbaycan dances I've seen resemble Turkmen dances and the hats they wear in the dance does aswell.
 
I also have seen the Sheyh Samil dance in Azerbaycan, its very lively.
 
Azerbaycani is not a language, in Iran such terms arn't used for the Torke and their langauge TurkiWink
 
Do you listen to Cavit Tebrizi? Alihan Samedov? Zoya Sabet?
 
Ashugs are minstrels who travel from village to village in Azerbaijan, Iran and the surrounding regions, singing traditional Azeri folk songs and improvising lyrics about well-known heroic epic figures like "Koroghlu", "Nabi", or legends of love like "Leyli and Majnun" and "Asli and Karam". Azerbaijani ashugs accompany themselves on the saz, a traditional stringed instrument.

In February, two Azerbaijani musicians from Iran, Ashug Hasan Iskandari and balaban player Mashasallah Akbari, wandered far from their native land of Tabriz to perform in a concert tour of Belgium, Sweden and Denmark. These two talented musicians have performed in various other countries around the world, including Japan, France, Germany, the U.K., Hungary and Azerbaijan.

 
http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/ai101_folder/101_articles/101_ashugs.html - http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/ai101_folder/101_articles/101_ashugs.html
 
 
How about Alim Qasimov, he even won a UNESCO award, the Mugham style is a classical stlye of Central Asia and Caucuses, its master is an Azeri Turk. My friends from Iran said he sings "Sari Gelin" beautifully.
 
I also like Sami Yusuf, especially during Ramazan.
 
 
 
 
 
Shinai
About the oghuz tribes I think it is the origin for Turkmens and Turks in Turkey, but not azerbaijan I am sure even a normal guy have not heard about it and they do not know what does it mean.
 
You havn't met Araz ElsesLOL
 
Seriously, this is all subjective, another Azeri can come and say completely the opposite. Iran Turks have Oghuz origin, Turkey Turks didn't fly down from the moon. You say your an Afshar Turk well Afshar Turks are in the 24 Oghuz tribe confederacy and that there are Afshar in Turkey aswell, you like Hulya Afshar the singer, she has a pretty nice voice :) also Qasqai have ties to Afshar Turks, there culture is very Turkic.
 
Shinai
Everybody mistakes the Azeries with kurds, becasue we both have dark skin.
 
Azeri are noted for being Light Skinned, I don't know where you got this idea from.
 
Shinai
Koroghli and dede kurkut should not be related to azerbiajn, they could be from Turkmen or Turkey, They are not local names in Azerbaijan
 
Man your taking it a bit far now, the Dede Qorqud UNESCO award was given in Azerbaycan. The Azeri I know always go on about Dede Qorqud, Koroglu, Garajaoglan Dastan, Asik and Kerem and so on.


-------------
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 07:20
For sure, it doesn't matter if we're yellow, white or black. But, Turkmens are originally Mongoloid and not Caucaid.
 
Baluches and Qyzylbashes, or should I say Iranian elements are very few and only at the border of Turkmenistan and Iran. We're talking about the majority. And don't mix things. See, we're talking about historical facts which show 9 Oghuzes and Sihun Oghuzes (even at 550 AD) were different geographical groups. No Pakistanis or whatever you mean.
 
Azeris are Indo-Europeans who speak Turkic language.
 
You're all pointing out people like KorOghlu, Molla Nasreddin, etc. These are Common Turkic heritage. You can't specify them to a certain group.
 
I told you, tribes like Qayi are NOT major tribes. They families, and that's all. Can I say, because Turkmens and Kazaks have got the tribe 'kereyit', so they're of the same origin, huh?
 
I've told you before, because the speakers of American English are the majority in the world (at least, more than British English), so American English is the most correct way, huh?
 
You're not the only buddy who've been to Turkey. I've visited Izmir and places too. I've got lots of Turkish friends too. Lots of Turkmens and Kazaks study in Turkey too. My uncle lives in Istanbul too. Unless in the case, all these people were blind to see such common culture, language and history you're talking about, or we're not the same people.
 


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 07:23

Bulldog, please, don't be that much idealist. Turkish people haven't got ca-like eye or what you call it. Please,...



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 10:58
Gok_Toruk
For sure, it doesn't matter if we're yellow, white or black. But, Turkmens are originally Mongoloid and not Caucaid.


Originally were all human, Nationhood-ethnicity doesn't have nothing to do with origins its cultural. Language, traditions, epics, legends, culture, musics, styles, common bonds, connections, history and so on.

Japanease are Mongoloid, so are Chinease so are Koreans they don't all look identical.

To a Japanease, Turkmen looks Caucosoid, to a Caucosoid Turkmen look more Mongoloid.

Turkmen have Turkmen look, its can't just be categorised as "Mongoloid" or "Caucosoid" these are archaic and incorrect terminologies today.


Gok_Toruk
Azeris are Indo-Europeans who speak Turkic language.


Indo-European is a language group, as I said were all "human" and its culture that defines us into these groups we call "nations". Azeri are part of the Turk nation, Race/Genetics etc don't play a big factor in this.


Gok_Toruk
I told you, tribes like Qayi are NOT major tribes. They families, and that's all. Can I say, because Turkmens and Kazaks have got the tribe 'kereyit', so they're of the same origin, huh?


Ofcourse, both are Turkic groups.

Also what about the "Tekke", "Yomut", "Salor" they are by no means mere "minor" tribes of Turkmenistan and they are the key tribes who playes the role of turning Anatolia into a Turkic lands, these key Turkmen tribes. Its probobly why the Tekke like promoting their connection between Turkmenistan-Turkey, its a very impressive feat.


Gok_Toruk
You're not the only buddy who've been to Turkey. I've visited Izmir and places too.


Next time you visit, you must see the Turkmen villages and towns. Go to Afyon, Aydin, Emirdag, the Toros mountains, the Tahtaci Turkmen areas, Eskisehir, Karaman, Hatay, GaziAntep etc etc its very interesting.

Izmir and Istanbul are big cities but still there is "mahallelik" in areas and in Anatolia its quite common, like "Aksakallik" that is common to Turkic peole's of central Asia.


Gok_Toruk
Turkish people haven't got ca-like eye or what you call it.


I was comparing Turkey Turks to the surrounding peoples, compared to like Greeks, Armenians, Persians Turks eyes are much more oriental. Greeks and Armenians generally have rounder eyes. But ofcourse we musn't generalise everyone as being such.
    

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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 06:07

See, it's a general word in anthroplogy, I mean 'Mongoloid'; you know, people who look Asiatic, having all those features we all know about. Now, we've got different sub branches of Mongoloids; simply because we've got Mongoloids who live in different places. A Caucaid Turkmen, is for sure, less Mongoloid than a Japanese. But, there also exist lots of Turkmens who are more Mongoloid than a lot of Japanese (maybe you've got to see tribes like Yolmo, Qochuq, Igtir, etc) . You can observe this case among any Asiatic society.

Asiatic people who spoke Turkic langague were called, once, 'Turk'. Now, as you explain, if a Black African is brought up in a Turkis society, so he's a Turk; because he speaks Turkic; he acts like Turks and what's more, he feels Turk. Maybe that's my own problem; but I can't accept it. Anyhow, Azeris are believed to be Indo - Europeans who speak a Turkic language.

Tekke, Yomut and Salyrs are major tribes; they are 3 out of 9 major tribes. Also I met Turkish Turkmens there. They were DIFFERENT from us. That's why I'm telling these are not the same people. Turkish Turkmens were/are Turkish nomads, that's all; not necessarily from Turkmenistan.

Turish people haven't got orienal eyes AT ALL.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 06:49
Gok_Toruk
See, it's a general word in anthroplogy, I mean 'Mongoloid'; you know, people who look Asiatic, having all those features we all know about. Now, we've got different sub branches of Mongoloids; simply because we've got Mongoloids who live in different places. A Caucaid Turkmen, is for sure, less Mongoloid than a Japanese. But, there also exist lots of Turkmens who are more Mongoloid than a lot of Japanese (maybe you've got to see tribes like Yolmo, Qochuq, Igtir, etc) . You can observe this case among any Asiatic society.



I've never seen a Turkmen with more Mongoloid features as a Japanease. Your correct, there are some who look a bit similar but to a Japanease, Turkmen are less Mongoloid in features than they are.


Gok_Toruk
Asiatic people who spoke Turkic langague were called, once, 'Turk'. Now, as you explain, if a Black African is brought up in a Turkis society, so he's a Turk; because he speaks Turkic; he acts like Turks and what's more, he feels Turk. Maybe that's my own problem; but I can't accept it. Anyhow, Azeris are believed to be Indo - Europeans who speak a Turkic language.



Why not?

It would be pretty rude and against Turkic customs to reject someone from being a Turk just cos of their colour.

Indo-European is a language.

Nations are cultural-linguistic groupings, Azeri are Turks and it doesn't matter how many people want to invent and put forward "racial" theories, today they're Turks and are accepted as such.


Gok_Toruk
Tekke, Yomut and Salyrs are major tribes; they are 3 out of 9 major tribes. Also I met Turkish Turkmens there. They were DIFFERENT from us. That's why I'm telling these are not the same people. Turkish Turkmens were/are Turkish nomads, that's all; not necessarily from Turkmenistan.


There are Tekke, Yomut and Salyr in Turkey though, they are responsible for making Anatolia TURKiye Do you know that "Karaman/Antalya" area a Tekke Turkmen area was where the famous Karamanogullu Mehmet Bey said from this day forward Turkish is the official language, language of the state and every state institution in the 12th century. From that day forward the Turkish language was elevated and became a very important langage West of the Caspian Sea

Tekke, Yomut, Salyr are major Tribes of Turkmenistan aswell.


Gok_Toruk
Turish people haven't got orienal eyes AT ALL.



Actually many have, you can see that compared to their neighbours Turkey Turks eyes are definately more Oriental.

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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 06:56

Yep, you haven't seen. You've got to live among Mongoloids to see how they differ. You can't distinguish Asiatic differences or else you wouldn't claim so.

You're kidding me? Indo-Europeans are people who speak Indo-European languages.
 
Let me express myself this way: alright, call anybody a Turk if you want. But for sure, Azeris were not Turkic immigrants to Azerbaijan. It's believed they are 'people who spoke Indo-European langauges' (!!!) who, now speak a dialect of Turkic.
 
First, you said Tekke, Yomut and Salyrs are not major, now you say they are. In Turkey, there doesn't exist any Tekke, Yomut or Salyr tribe, city, culture, etc.
 
Bulldog, I've had enough. Are you really trying to convince me people have got Asiatic looks in Turkey (or soemthing like this)?!!!


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 08:20
How do you know that I don't? or havn't? to a Japanease Turkmens look less Mongoloid to a European they look more Mongoloid.

Yes, Indo-European is a language definition.

Azeri ofcourse were Turkic immigrants to Azerbaijan. At the time there were numerous smaller seperate nations in the area, when Turks arrived they were most dominant and influential and became a majority because although there may have been more natives they wern't "one unified nation" whereas Turks who arrived were. Through mixing, living together and intermingling for centuries eventually the whole area became Turks, speaking Turkish.

The same happened in Turkey.

The nations which were larger and more unified remained like Persians, Armenians, Greeks.

How can Tekke, Yomut, Salyr not be important? your really mistaken about them not existing in Turkey, Antalya/Karaman area was called "Tekke Sanjak" prior to the establishment of the Republic Turkiye.      

Turkey TUrks in comparison to their neighbours have a higher number of people with Asiatic features especially eyes.

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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: shinai
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 17:30
I donot know Azeries were I.E. but they are changinge to I.E. for sure.
I want to ask a question, is it possible that there were original turks caucasoid and then mixed with mongoloids some how.
I know most of Afshars, Qajars , Qashqays, and Anatolian Turkmen are caucasoid, it is a little bit hard to accept all of them are Turkish speaking Persian or Greeks.
Gok_Toruk, Do you know any thing about Qajars? It seems they used to call themselves Turkmen, and they were native to Turkmen Sahra.
I  call azeries Iranian not   because of tehir race, at least I know that Iranian azeries are carrying C.A. gens more than Turks in Turkey, but because of their culture.It is too Iranian. Foods , music, dans.....almost everything.
The other point is that Azeries fought with both Anatolian Turks and Turmen in turkminestan.
Azeris were moved to Gonbad to stop the Turkmen and uzbek rides, actually they were very hostile to Turkmen in the east. Gok Toruk if you know Gonbad city there were asmall part of it with azeri residents(Turk Abad) and no turkmen could eneter to that area.
Also Azeries are the main reason that the ottoman empire were not intreseted to enter to Iran, so this is another reason which Azeries are Iranian.
Also All the Turks from Iran in history mostly used persian langauge , even seljuks which evrybody at this form call Turkish were Iranin in culture and look.
 
 
 


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 17:49

Ofcourse, a normal Turkmen is less Mongoloid than a Japanese who is of Tungusic origin. I'm just saying there also Turkmens who look more Asiatic than a lot of Japanese. This case exists among all Mongoloids.

I won't enter such an arguement again. According to most of modern historians, Azeris were Indo-Europeans who spoke a Turkic dialect.
 
See, buddy, it seems like we're getting nowhere. Forget about it; especially the part for Asiatic looks...


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 18:07

Qachars were one of the 'Qyzylbashes'. They aren't native to Turkmenistan (the name describes this also). They're one of those nations who were called, by Iranians (or should I say Moslems), 'Turkmen', because of their nomadic life. ]

Yes, Azeris along with Kurds were taken to Iranian border to defend against Turkmens and Uzbeks; but they weren't successful. Seems like you know Persian. Have a glance at the book 'Turkmen's battle' (Jang-e Turkmen). It's an Azeri's memories of how they fought with Turkmens. It is about the greatest war Iran had with Turkmens, resulting in total defeat of Iran (at the time of Qachars). Only 700 people (some say 2000) out of almost 40000 got back alive to Mashad.
 
I've been to Gonbad many times. Gonbad's population is mixed; but the majority is for Turkmens. The most frightening places are:
 
1- A Turkmen dwelling part called 'Tekke yeri'. From time to time, a Mercedes Benz (Iranian police car) is fired there.
 
2- A Turkmen dwelling part 'Khalat Nebi' which is famous for their youthes who are all Boxers.
 
Now, 'Turk Abad' lies really behind these places. What do you mean a Turkmen can't enter such a place? I've been there many times, I can even tell you of the stores and families there (start from the entrance from Taleghani Ave. - the one from Shohada Sharghi Ave. - or the one from Azadegan). In fact, Azeris are ok (not more than this), according to Turkmens. Ofcourse 'Turk Abad' is unique to Azeris. That's why they feel powerful there. But, if it comes to be in city, an Azeri is really ok.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 18:55
The Kurds were moved to Khorassan from the OSmanli border because they sided with them against Iran, they were replaced by Afshars who were Shiia, that is how the Afshars got to Azarbaijan.
 


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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 19:00
Maybe you're right. But according to documents contemporary to Nadir Shah, Kurds and Azeri were taken to the border because of Turkmens of Uzbeks.

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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 19:22

Maybe soldiers during Nader Shah's era. Shah Abbas however, resettled Kurds and Afshars some couple of hundred years prior.



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Posted By: shinai
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 20:49
Gok_Toruk I respect the warrior spirit between Turkmens, but i need to say that it is more about their family and their tribe.
between azeries it more about iranian or shieh nationalism.
yea I know Turkmens defend their family by all they have but at least i know that they are not as aggresive as Azeries.
North west Iranian, azeries and kurd have a vey strong budy built.This makes them horrible in any fight, so let me know if you have heard how the Turkmen rides ended in Iran.
Azeries put the captured Turkmens in Tepe gachis, it was horrible but even they lost the one or two battles they won the war.
I donot know how old you are but during the Jange Gonbad I was in grade 5, army was trying to save the turkmens from angry azeries.
anyhow those  bad days are over and I know that the Turkmens now are representing one of the beautiful anf pure culture with their genttle manner in Iran.Smile
 


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 05:24
What happened at Jange Gonbad?

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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 06:29

Frist of all, let me tell you something, there's not any competetion... it's getting funny you know. I never was in Gonbad at that time!!! So, I can't tell you anything about it, maybe you're right. But remeber, The Battle of Gonbad was such a big battle that Iranian army was settled there even from Kurdistan and Azerbaijan. Considering Gonbad population of Turkmens were only 200,000, so the result was really predetermined.

What's more, it wasn't a man to man battle. It was all gun; it wasnt' spirit or courage; it was bang, bang, bang. So, it can't be a norm to compare people's courage.
 
But as for history, no need to explain. Even still, Turkmens are the most frightening people, in Central Asia. Azeris, this way, really lack behinds Turkmens. My roommate was an Azeri. I've been also to Iranian Azerbaijan. Azeris are really ok. And that's all.
 
Anyhow, it's really getting funny for me. Let's stop it here.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 07:58
When was this Jange Gonbad? Why did it happen? And who was fighting who?

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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 18:41
So Shinai, Iranian culture is then a blend of Persian, Kurdish, Turkic cultures.
 
Oh and Shah Ismail used Turkish Tongue also later AltinOrda, Timurids etc
 
Actually Turkic and Iranic groups have more in common than they have differences but for some reason this isn't really embracedLOL
 
If European countries were as close as Turkic and Iranics are they'd love it, its ironic that even though Iranic and Turkic have much more in common than Europeans have to each other, it isn't really promoted or embraced.
 
Which is unfortunate...
 
Let's stop straying from the topic.
 
Gok_Toruk were gonna go to some Tekke and Salyr areas in Turkey and make a documentary about it about the Turkmen identity of Turkey Big smile


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 23:10
Let me know when you're done! It must be interesting. You might be right, ater all.

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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 11:43
It would be great to do one with some Turkmenistan Turkmens, travel to Turkey and investigate the connections, what has remained from Turkmenistan, what has changed, what has been adapted and changed and so on, it would be very interesting.    

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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 13:06
OK, is thios Jang e Gonbad from teh 20s when Reza Shah put the Turkmens under control?  I guess not if Shinai was int eh 5th grade.  So can someone give me some information? I am interested!

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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 16:25
Open another thread about it if you want, its unrelated to this thread.
 
Regards


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: shinai
Date Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 18:32
Zagros I just can say it happend in 1980.
Bulldog I agree with you that Iranian and Turkish culture have many things in common.I can say that we are like two brothers who are not aware of this fact.
Iranians started to knows Turks earlier, many of them speak your languge ,know your music and history, but francly speaking in the education system of Turkey, there is no chance for young Turks to know the world in their neighborhood, They learn more about Turkministan, uzbikistan and many tiny istans more that Iran, Iraq and Yunanistan.
For my Turkish friends, Azeries are azeri speaking Arabs, Iranians are Persian speaking arabs, I guss evry body from middle east should be arab .In Istanbul when I was entering a Bar the bouncer asked me if I am kurdish, I changed my mind to get in to that place. I think in Turkey western form of nationalisem will not let any other nations feel in common with Turks although they have too much in common.
 
 


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 11:49
Well then Turkey and Iran should set up joint cultural projects, educational faculties in each other's country and increase communications-media and so on.
 
Turkmenistan, Ozbekistan etc are also very important, they are the "national root" ie language, historically, identity wise and so on.
 
Infact as Iran has many Turks aswell using Turki can be very beneficial and help to increase and boost ties and relations with the Turkic states in Central Asia.
 
Istanbul is a big city, you should visit Igdir, Erzerum, Elazig, Sivas, Kars they speak the same accent as Azeri Turks Wink
 
I agree with what you you say about "Westernism" and its negative aspects, Iran on this front is succesfull they are rejecting this notion of being Western
and accepting that it makes you modern. Today many Eastern countries
are highly developed/developing and advanced like Japan, Korea, China, India, Malaysia,
Indonesia...
 
Hopefully Iran and Turkey can realise that there not so different and those
who try to make them hate each other and think one's better than the other
or that they must be against each other and have no relations are actually
the common biggest problem to both these great countries. 


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2006 at 03:49
Well, I've visited Turkey and Turkish people. I've done such a thing. That's why I believe we're not of the same geographical group.

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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: shinai
Date Posted: 22-Oct-2006 at 12:33
For sure, I am planning for a tour to eastern Turkey next year.


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 15:53
Some folklore traditions.
 
 
Al/Albasti/Albasmasi
 
Al Basti (Also Al Kardai or just Al) is a tormenting feminine night-demon in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_folklore - Turkish folklore ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia - Anatolia , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmenistan - Turkmenistan ). Those who she visits are said to wake up in an intense fever. She is also known to steal horses, who are found sweating and exhausted in the morning, and unable to provide a full days work. Due to her torments, she is also known as the "red mother" or "red lady".
 
Wikipedia
 
 
The mother or baby-snatcher is conceived of as disturbing women and newborn babies during accouchement and sometimes even killing them, and may be referred to as “AL”, “al anası”, “al kızı”, “al karası”, “koncoloz”, “goncoloz”, "Cadi" and “kara koncoloz”.

New mothers resort to a number of practices to protect against the mother or baby-snatcher, who is believed to live in stables, haylofts, mills, deserted ruins, wells, water sources and places where women in accouchement and newborn babies are left alone. Some of these practices are;

- Hanging brooms, Koran, onion, garlic, and blue beads believed to protect against the evil eye in the room where the woman and newborn baby lie,
- Inserting a needle or packing needle under the pillow of the woman or newborn baby,
- Placing sharp tools such as daggers, sickles, knives etc. under the pillow,

If you know Turkish there is a Pdf article about this
 
http://turkoloji.cu.edu.tr/CUKUROVA/sempozyum/semp_1/simsek.pdf - http://turkoloji.cu.edu.tr/CUKUROVA/sempozyum/semp_1/simsek.pdf
 
 
Other birth traditions.
 
 
The forty-day threshold
- The forty-day precautions
 
- A woman may not go far from her house until 40 days after childbirth.

- She may not go out of her house at night.

- Koran, amulets, knives and black cumin are placed by the head of a baby for 40 days.

- Such a woman is not left alone in the house at night.

- After the 4oth day, the woman visits her three neighbors first before going any distance away from her house.

- Women and their babies are not allowed to see each other for 40 days.

- Visitors to women within 40 days of childbirth give coins or money in order to protect baby.

- Cats and dogs are not allowed inside the room where there is a baby younger than 40 days; otherwise the skin of the baby turns red.

- Two such women exchange needles in order to bring the period to an end.
 
- When a woman visits a house within 40 days of giving birth, she pours out water with myrtle leaves before entering the house.


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 16:37

Chileli Agaci

Trees are very important in Turkic societies, often there will be large old trees especially in tomb complexes of saints, old leaders and folk hero's, also in certain areas like the tallest mountain or area of regional significance the locals will tie fabrics, rope, tapestries onto the trees branches for good luck, make prayers and place importance for them.
 
 
Turkey
 
 
Kazakistan


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: aslanlar
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 19:57
Nasreddin Hodja. He is known in Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan? Wow, i didn't know that? His stories are amazing, it's been a long time since i've heard of him. My grandmother used to tell me bed-time stories of Nasreddin Hodja. The good old days... Cry

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"The league is alright when sparrows dispute but it can do little when eagles argue" -Mussolini


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 02:27

gok_toruk you should visit turkmen areas in the toros mountains.i have a turkmen friend from antalya at university he looks asiatic but not like mongolians either.he says he is from tekke tribe .i dont know if it is from 9 oghuz tribes.

 thats why turkey is called turkey you can find all turkish tribes in different areas of our country.
azeri turks in the eastern especially in kars,erzurum.you can find kazaks kırgızs and tatars at eskişehir region.
turkmens at antalya region. it is not about the forums topic but at fethiye region there is a
 village that ethiopians has been living from 18 th century.
gok_toruk all nation are affected by thier neighbors or by the people they fight.there is not an untouched
 turkmen sociaty in the world and you shouldn' be looking for it.doesn't matter you regret eastern
turkmenistan are effected from chinese or western side from another culture!!we are effected
 from chinese too(according to orkhun) we were their neighbors about 1300 years ago!!of course azeri turks
are effected from persians.and persians are effected from azeri turks.or turkish turks are effected by greeks
that is natural.i find this discussion a bit silly.


Posted By: Kerimoglu
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2007 at 03:22
I am an Azeri Turk, living in Northern Azerbaijan. We are Turks, and we are turks even more than Turkey Turks. We speak Turkish, we de have a total turkish culture, Our dances are turkish, our food is TUrkish, we Have Ozan and Ashyg, we do prefer meat to enything else, and we are ogyz, Qiniq and BAyat tribes are the origin of Qaraqoyunlu and Agqoyunlu.
 
Now coming to 30 000 Azeri Turks living in Iran, since 1813 Persians in Iran tried to show Turks there as Persian or Iranian as well. For example Qashqai TUrks there is usually know as Iranian People, and reference goes to persian Racism.
 
I have also been to Tabriz last year and everyone speaks Turkish there.
 
Remember Sattarhan, Bagirxan, Xiyabani, Pisheveri and remember that they all claimed they were Turkish and that they fought for independence.
 
Nasreddin Molla, is very famous joketeller and he is if Turkish origin.


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History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!



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