Lord Saladin : Kurdish or Cuman ?
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Military History
Forum Discription: Discussions related to military history: generals, battles, campaigns, etc.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14439
Printed Date: 27-Apr-2024 at 23:24
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Topic: Lord Saladin : Kurdish or Cuman ?
Posted By: Batu
Subject: Lord Saladin : Kurdish or Cuman ?
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 16:18
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i think he is a Cuman Turk like other Mameluke ruler.
------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Replies:
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 16:42
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Source? ------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 17:35
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His lineage is well known and recorded and it is 100% Kurdish. ------------- |
Posted By: Bashibozuk
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 17:39
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And who was Eshref Khan Bitlisi? A genealogist? ------------- Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar, Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar. Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar, Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben. |
Posted By: Penelope
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 23:50
| It is said that Saladin was of Kurdish heritage, and all through his career he used mainly Kurdish officials as his closest partners. |
Posted By: OSMANLI
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 12:10
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Did Selahaddin Ayyubi even care?
He saw his identity as a Muslim and thats it. He fought for Islam, nothing else and his well respected reputation came from his Islamic principles.
So far no has yet shown any evidence of him being a Kurd, Turk or some third race  . -------------  
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 12:30
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His father died at a young age, his power stemmed from the Turkish AtaBeks, I'm not sure about his actual nationallity does anyone have clear sources?
Lets not forget his wife also, a very powerfull woman who led the Muslim armies after his death, a great figure in woman's history is our dear Shaggrat Dur http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/heroine1.html ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 16:03
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"I'm not sure about his actual nationallity does anyone have clear sources?"
His father was a Kurdish trader I think. You can read about him in almost every book regarding the crusades. I've read a few and everyone claims that he had a Kurdish descent.
As Zagros mentioned "His lineage is well known and recorded and it is 100% Kurdish.".
------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 19:13
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Does it really matter of what descent he was?
I believe he would like to be reminded with what he had done other than of what descent he was... ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 19:28
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Quite clearly Kurdish.
------------- |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 22:00
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I think we cant find out his nation. Becouse in that age nation was not important, the important thing was religion. So we cant say he is Kurd or Turk or Arab or Persian, we could only say that he was a muslim. ------------- |
Posted By: Penelope
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 23:35
I can agree with your statement about religion being more important than a nation during that period in those 2 regions.
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Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 01:06
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his brothers name are : Turan Shah,Tugtekin,Bori,Shanshah all in Turkish. ------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: Ahmed The Fighter
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 05:49
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But that is not a proof to said he is a Turkish, as we all know his family was in the service of Turkish Atabegs Zangi,Emad Al-Deen and Noor Al-Deen so this is the main reason why they had turkish names as well as Saladin real name is Yousef and his father name is Ayoub both of them are Arabic names so I can't take your topic BATU like a theory.
He is kurdish and his family from Arbil but he was born in Tikrit.
Bulldog Shagarat Al-Durr was not Saladin's wife she was Sultan Al-Saleh Ayoub's wife afetr his death she married Ez Al-deen Aybak then she is killed by an order from Al-Malek Al-Mudhafer Qutoz.
------------- "May the eyes of cowards never sleep" Khalid Bin Walid 
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Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 06:13
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i dont care about his "lineage" but he is a man tobe honoured of what he has done in time...
------------- Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı http://imageshack.us - [IMG - http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg - |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 08:20
YES  ------------- |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 08:35
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Uhm, as far as the evidence goes there is no reason to believe he was of Turkic extraction, so please, let's not waste our time on this. It's very frustrating for us historians when people seem more eager to believe what they want to believe, and just disregard the sources and the latest research, you get the feeling you could just well as forget about it, as people believe what suits them anyway.
Personally I think he was Germanic, Norwegian in fact.  ------------- |
Posted By: Penelope
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 00:53
I couldnt have said it better.
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Posted By: Urungu Han
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 05:25
| He was clearly Turkic,His uncle was a Turkic chief anmed Nureddin Mahmud Zengi. |
Posted By: Aster Thrax Eupator
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 05:48
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From what i've gathered, he was definately of Turkic origin. His father (i think) was a Seljuq ------------- |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 10:45
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Do you guys even have a impartial author/historian that claims that he was Turkish?
I have not. ------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 16:23
Saladin was a Kurd of a Kurdish dynasty. He did not really come from a distinguished background, but his uncle Shirkuh served as a general under the Turkic Nur ad-Din, son of the infamous Zengi and thus a member of what we term the Zengid dynasty, a dynasty that rose to prominence from their positions as atabegs of Mosul and Aleppo. Shirkuh and Saladin however, were from what we term the Ayyubid dynasty, a Kurdish dynasty that gained power through their role as commanders of Kurdish heavy cavalry under Turkic generals like the Zengids. Let me explain how it transpired. Egypt, at this time ruled by the Fatimids, was hard pressed by the Kingdom of Jerusalem. During the reign of king Baldwin III the Fatimid Caliph had agreed to pay the king of Jerusalem tribute, but all of a sudden this tribute was no longer forthcoming, and the present king, Amalric I, invaded Egypt. The Fatimids appealed to Nur ad-din for help, at this time the most powerful potentate in the middle east. Nur ad-Din sent his Kurdish general Shirkuh to take care of the matter, which he did, forcing Amalric I to retreat while at the same time securing full control of Egypt for Nur ad-Din. Saladin, Shirkuh's nephew, was the man chosen to act as Vizier for the newly acquired province on Nur ad-Din's behalf. Saladin wasn't as loyal as his uncle however, and once he had Egypt in his power he saw no reason to just hand it over to Nur Ad-Din. Nur ad-Din saw this as a declaration of war of course, preparing to invade Egypt personally and oust Saladin, but before he could do anything about it he was seized by a severe fever and died. Saladin then, sitting safely as the new ruler of Egypt, soon managed to marry Nur ad-Din's widow. Now he emerged as the new leader of Islam, fulfilling Nur ad-Din's vision of Syria and Egypt in an united muslim front against the crusader states, but led by a Kurdish dynasty, the Ayyubids. ------------- |
Posted By: Urungu Han
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 07:22
| Don't forget ayyubid army were Kipchak Turks gained from the steppes,they called Mameluke(Kölemen).After Ayyubids,they built an empire. |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 11:33
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ayyubid dyntasy is kurdish? this is not true.all dynasties in that era were Turkic.Kuman or Oghuz Turks.Mameluks were Turkic.you dont deny this right? Saladin was also a Mameluk !!! ------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 15:37
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Salidin is without a doubt...AUstralian. His cheif advisors wer all kangaroos! ------------- |
Posted By: Fizzil
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 16:41
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Man you guys need some real hard evidence and sources to backup the claim he was turk.
Most reputable sources already say hes Kurdish, from Tekrit. Also if hes really a turk, why are all the current Al Ayubi family all kurds?
 |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 16:50
*Shakes his head in disbelief* What books are you reading? I hope the answer is none, otherwise you've wasted a lot of time. All dynasties in that time, in the middle east, were not Turkic. Some were but there were many other Persian and Arab dynasties as well. The Mamluks were partly Turkic, yes, and partly Circassian, Saladin however was never a Mamluk or any other type of slave.
The Mamluk force consisted of many Turks, yes, but also Circassians. Please don't intentionally ignore the accomplishments of other peoples to elevate your own, like Batu also does, that's small-minded. In any case it has nothing to do with the ethnic origin of the Ayyubids (who, as should be clear by now, were Kurds), as their Mamluk army was a later development from the time after they had risen to power. In addition to this they were slaves, not exactly members of the dynasty. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 17:36
| Don't waste your time arguing with these people. Records in Arabic state exactly the origins of the ayyubids. Certain groups make up any myth to deny all things Kurdish in history due to their extremist views against them, part and parcel of seeking to deny their prominence on the land which they have always inhabited. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 17:53
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Most reputable sources write Sal-ah-uddin was a Kurd. However, Batu is also correct in stating most the warriors and successors were Turks. A later wife of Sal-ah-uddin's successor was a Turk, who after his death took command of the armies and became Sultan of Egypt. Its a great period for woman's history and rulers. Read the source to understand the situation properly regarding Sal-ah-uddin and the armies.
Shagrat al-Durr
Sultan of Eqypthttp://www.womeninworldhistory.com/heroine1.html
------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Timotheus
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 01:00
| Just like Skanderbeg, eh? Nobody can agree, everyone cites yards of figures to "proove" that their hero was 100% of their own extraction. |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 08:10
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That Saladin was Kurdish is not disputed in academic circles, there is no reason to doubt it at all, but when you go to these internet history forums then you hear all sorts of misled theories and I just do my duty as a historian, so to speak, and undermine them. ------------- |
Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 21:40
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I am tired of hearing claims without any evidence and reliable sources. In every source I saw about Saladin, he has been clearly mentioned Kurdish. ------------- Anfører |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 00:37
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Kurds dont have a history, so how can Saladin be Kurdish...
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Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 00:47
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He wasn't an American? Next you guys will tell me he wasn't even Christian...
-Akolouthos
Addendum:
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 01:38
| As far as I know, all the sources that I have come across, and books, mention him to be a Kurd, and Kurdish is his heritage, I do not see how he was a Turk, nor does it matter. His achievments stand the test of time no matter what he is. |
Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 01:55
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yeah, He was an African American. Didn't you know that ?
Marlon Wayans declared himself as Saladin descendant.
  ------------- Anfører |
Posted By: TheDiplomat
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 08:13
Exactly, nationality is a quite new thing actually.Especially in the islamic world..Ideas like he was %100 Kurdish are nonsense...as if there was a genetic science source 1000 years ago...  ------------- ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever! |
Posted By: the_oz
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 11:10
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i dont know if he was a turk or a kurd but i know that he would be nothing without turkish soldiers.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/sherwoodtimes/battleof.htm - http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/sherwoodtimes/battleof.htm
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Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:07
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Saladin was a genetic mixture as all human beings are.
'Muslim' would be a more appropriate label for him, but he had an undeniable Kurdish heritage. By the way, this thread is not related with military history. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:27
A - Yes you are right, the whole world is Turkish, the Cruasers were Turks, Richard's middle name was Erkan, Napoleon as well was a Turk.
 B - A Mamluk was a slave, Salah ad-Din was a free man, born to a free family, who were from Tikrit, an army family.
A + B = he was Kurd.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 17:34
Defietly true in the Islamic world, Muslim was the dominant identity then your national extraction, "Kurd", "Turk", etc were secondary things to people, most people in Anatolia did not know they were Turkish until the government told them so. It was not stressed as much, especially at his level, he was rather lower ranking in society, however, to say he was Turkish is absurd, history books, alongside primary sources cite him a Kurd, so that is what he was, the question is not wheter he was a Turk or a Kurd, we already know that he was a Kurd, but rather did he emphasize much on his Kurdish heritage or not?
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Posted By: Crusader3943
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 10:29
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I think that he was Kurdish. ------------- Crusader3943 |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 12:08
Yes, he was Kurdish.
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 13:13
He didn't emphasise his Kurdishness of course, but his family was Kurdish and those were the closest to him.
Genral note: Does anyone dispute that the Ottomans or Seljuq rulers were Turk or not? No because they were, they were Turks - so when someone states that fact that Saladin was Kurdish what's the problem with that? Why is his ethnicity not important but if someone says Ottomans were not Turks, for example, everyone will do everything to prove that they were, including me. It's just blatant anti-Kurdishness.------------- |
Posted By: Kerimoglu
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 15:11
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There have been different theories on this. Hib being Arabian, local Egyptian, Kursih and Turkish. As far as I know the most and latest trustable result is him being a Kurdish.
Guys, I say again, Being a TUrk does not mean that u have a specific blood or another, hell knows. ------------- History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow! |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 14:47
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Why do people still argue that he wasn't of Kurdish descent?
------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 09:34
Simply because this is a history discussion forum, and people are not robots with fixed thoughts ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 09:41
Might have been for the better if they indeed were.  ------------- |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 11:13
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"Simply because this is a history discussion forum, and people are not robots with fixed thoughts"
I can bet that if he was Turkish, there would not of been any discussion.
------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: last_janissary
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 18:14
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kurds(supported from USA) who dont have an history ago 100 year , found a lie too
You are not real historian , and here is not assembly centre , also you are talking only with "i think this is a... i think this is b ..etc." , i think that there isnt a mouse at here but that is in here i cant change to real you too .. so you must show a reason for can say that ..however you cant earn any prestige or another thing with tebating on this subject , only you can get confused on other ethnic subject ... ------------- http://www.ilkerozer.net  
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Posted By: Mortazaa
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 18:19
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please dont waste our time with this nonsense.
Kurds have absolute more history than 100 year.
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Posted By: last_janissary
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 18:32
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<<(supported from USA)>>
plase read carefully ... and subject like this , damages some states union like turkey , iran , ırak , syria ... Real kurds , turks or araps are as brother ... and why dont you debate to "Sami (Lapon) s are died now" or "where is the american natives now" ... ------------- http://www.ilkerozer.net
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Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 21:13
Did you know Kurd ancestary goes back all the way to Adam and Eve. Come to think of it so does mine.
 Funnily enough i met a Kurd who was 102 years old, what a liar had me fooled. So much thank you Lost_Janissary for real truth.
Now Turkey has been around for what 83 years that means turk history is how old....?
------------- |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 12:25
Open a new topic and state your unrelated thoughts out there then...You can't accuse members because you believe in one thing and he believes in another, neither you can make such pointless statements regarding nationalities. Don't cross the line...This goes for last_janissary as well.
Anyway, as topic is not fruitful anymore, I am locking it. ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |