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Legacy of europeans sold into the islamic

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Medieval Europe
Forum Discription: The Middle Ages: AD 500-1500
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14258
Printed Date: 28-Mar-2024 at 13:48
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Topic: Legacy of europeans sold into the islamic
Posted By: gramberto
Subject: Legacy of europeans sold into the islamic
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 16:59
I am listening to some lectures on the vikings.
 
http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/3910.asp?id=3910&d=Vikings&pc=Search - http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/3910.asp?id=3910&d=Vikings&pc=Search
 
The professor said that the vikings would routinely raid eastern european/slavic communities and sell the people there into slavery to the islamic kingdoms.
 
What happened to them and their decendants? Are there any eastern european communities left in the middle east?



Replies:
Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 17:30

Is it possible to listen to that particular lecture without having to buy the DVD or the Video?

If they were sold in slave market, they won't be concentrated in one location as Eastern European communities. I'm not sure of Eastern European slaves, but it has been a common practice in the second millenium for many Turkic tribes to capture and sell other Turkic slaves especially from the Bulgar and the Crimean Turkic tribes. Those were the founders of later kingdoms in Egypt such as the Memluks (literally the owned slaves) and other Middle Eastern sultanates. Of course later, Ottoman turks captured and bought many Eastern Europeans, Balkans, Caucasus Europeans to be trained as janissaries who enjoyed special privilages in exchange for their total loyalty to the Ottoman Caliph or Sultan. But those also did not form a seperate communities of Eastern Europeans in the Middle East. Rather they were spread between all areas of the Ottoman Empire as Pashas, soldiers, and governors.
The only Eastern European community I can think of that has been settled in the Middle East as a gathered community of Slavs is the story of the 5,000 Slavic soldiers of the Byzantine Empire who deserted to the Arabs during the early Ummayed years and were settled in Palestine. Most probably, their desertation from the Byzantine army was due to recent military operations against Slavic and Balkan Europeans by the Byzantine army.


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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.


Posted By: gramberto
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 23:05
check your public library. my public library has all of the lectures.


Posted By: Lorenzo
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 23:14
I don't know about this in particular, but I have read that the slaves from Egypt and transferred to the East (China?) were castrated to make it impossible to reproduce. very possible the same occured.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 00:54
I frankly doubt that castration occured.


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Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 11:51

@cok gec

Indeed, there was a desertion of Slavs to the Arabs during the reign of Justinian II. 6000 is around the correct number as 6000 is already a large number in itself. They were recent captives of Justinian and settled in a place they did not desire to be in the first place. And so..an enemy's enemy is your friend, you desert when you have the chance.

A slav friend tells me that they were several prominent slavs in spain and were known as saqalibas (?) kind of like the arab verson sklavenoi

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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign


Posted By: Orderic Vitalis
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 15:01
Some Eastern European, like other non-Muslims sold into slavery, would have become Mamluks. Other slaves would have been manumitted, either through converting to Islam, or by their owners (a common practice). In Spain you might see attempts by Chrisitans to purchase such slaves, but I doubt this would be the case with Eastern Europeans.

In any case, most slaves or their children, if they had any, would have converted to Islam and gradually assimilated into their culture, and though intermarriage, their descendents would lose any of their blond and blue-eyed characteristics.

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Visit our site www.medievalists.net for articles, videos and more about the Middle Ages


Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 15:05
Originally posted by Lorenzo

I don't know about this in particular, but I have read that the slaves from Egypt and transferred to the East (China?) were castrated to make it impossible to reproduce. very possible the same occured.
 
Slaves from Egypt to China? I'm not aware of that. I would love to see examples of such trade. Usually, the slaves in the middle east were either Abbassyians, Turkic tribes of Crimean and around the Bulgars, and war captives.
I know for sure that during Ottoman era, there used to be a group of Abbassyians slaves who were castrated and they served the holy mosque in Mecca. I'm not confident about the origin of this practice, because it is not local to the Middle Eastern culture to castrate slaves. However, those castrated Abbasyians slaves were servants to the Mosque in Mecca and can mingle with women in the mosque for organizing and putting order as they were not feared for sexually harrassing female visitors. Memories of Castren Nihpor who visited the Hejaz region in the late 18th century pointed to some of those special servants.


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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.


Posted By: TRUREL
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 09:02
Originally posted by Sparten

I frankly doubt that castration occured.
 
You doubt that there were Eunuchs?


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All we wanted was our country to love us as much as we loved it.


Posted By: Desperado
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 10:11
    Raiding the neighbouring Christian lands (current Ukraine and South Russia) for slaves was a common and profitable business for the Crimean Tartars and Cherkassians, described like innocent victims by Bgturk in this http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14154 - thread . The same slaves were also bought by Venetians, Genoans etc. as a crews for their galleys (despite being Christrian).


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 10:59
Originally posted by TRUREL

Originally posted by Sparten

I frankly doubt that castration occured.
 
You doubt that there were Eunuchs?
 
Eunuchs were a minority between slaves. It is curious, but Islamic countries always had a curious favoritism for European slaves.
 
 


Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 12:04
In Al-Andalus there were a vast market for the eslaves, many of they true slavs. These slavs come to muslim Spain because the wars of the carolingians and then the german lords in the eastern frontiers, from there they were put in Verdún, the main market of eslaves in western Europe, and from here the muslim traders take their to Al-Andalus. A portion of the slaves was castrated and worked in the palace, but many others worked mainly in the administrative system or few in the army; there were three types of eslave women: blacks from the Níger, whites from iberian christian kingdoms and whites from Frankish-Slavic Europe, these last as say pinguin was the most valued by the iberian muslims because their light skin, eyes and hair. Althought originally the name saqalibas refering to the slaves, they will be mixed then with other non iberian groups, the "franks", these eslaves was provided by the piracy bases in southern France; so at one moment, the "slavs" from Al-Andalus was in fact all eslave from non iberian Europe (and certainlly in later years, too from this place)

When the Caliphate fall down, the "slaves" will have a lot of small kingdoms, "taifas", in the mediterranean coast, of these, the more important and strong was the Taifa of Denia (and Balearic islands), wich will launch several campaigns of piracy in the western mediterranean sea, included a serious attack to Sardinia if i remember well.


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Posted By: NikeBG
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 12:20
What's the etymology of the word "taifa"? Because even in modern Bulgarian "taifa" is a slang term for "a group, a band".


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 12:23
Originally posted by Desperado

  Tartars and Cherkassians, described like innocent victims by Bgturk in this http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14154 - thread . The same slaves were also bought by Venetians, Genoans etc. as a crews for their galleys (despite being Christrian).
 
Sorry, but they WERE innocent victims, what the hell have 19th century victims of Russian genocide got to do with 9th century slave hunters? Why do you prescribe such assinine stigmatisation?


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Posted By: Desperado
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 12:57
Originally posted by Zagros


Sorry, but they WERE innocent victims, what the hell have 19th century victims of Russian genocide got to do with 9th century slave hunters? Why do you prescribe such assinine stigmatisation?


The 9th century slave hunters, really got nothing to do with their 19th century colleagues except the common business. The main source of slave labour for the Islamic world from Europe, was firstly the Crimean Khanate, after it's destruction-the North Caucasus muslim tribes.
   For sure some of them were innocent victims, but their notorious practics of constant raiding the nearby lands for slaves and pillage as well as the military support for the Ottoman Empire provoked such severe counter measures.
    


Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 13:01
Originally posted by NikeBG

What's the etymology of the word "taifa"? Because even in modern Bulgarian "taifa" is a slang term for "a group, a band".


Taifa (Ta'ifah) was a word applied to all the kingdoms derivated from the the Caliphate, have an arab origin and mean "faction"


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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 14:54
Originally posted by Desperado

Originally posted by Zagros


Sorry, but they WERE innocent victims, what the hell have 19th century victims of Russian genocide got to do with 9th century slave hunters? Why do you prescribe such assinine stigmatisation?


The 9th century slave hunters, really got nothing to do with their 19th century colleagues except the common business. The main source of slave labour for the Islamic world from Europe, was firstly the Crimean Khanate, after it's destruction-the North Caucasus muslim tribes.
   For sure some of them were innocent victims, but their notorious practics of constant raiding the nearby lands for slaves and pillage as well as the military support for the Ottoman Empire provoked such severe counter measures.
    
 
So you are saying that they were still slave hunters in the 19th century?  Can you provide some academic or historical facts to support this assertation? Even if so, you say only some were innocent? I did not realise that the common people of a polity decided its geopolitical/strategic policies, which, even if they did, has nothing to do with slave hunting.
 
 
 


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Posted By: Desperado
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 16:39

Originally posted by Zagros


So you are saying that they were still slave hunters in the 19th century?  Can you provide some academic or historical facts to support this assertation? Even if so, you say only some were innocent? I did not realise that the common people of a polity decided its geopolitical/strategic policies, which, even if they did, has nothing to do with slave hunting.


Yes, I DO say that some are innocent, because the women and children are not responsible for their husbands/parents activities. Even until nowadays (2002) hundreds, if not thousands of non-muslims were kept as slaves in different Caucasus republics of the Russian Federation (mainly in Chechenia). If you want more info check Fisher's “Muscovy and the Black Sea Slave Trade” and Reuben Levy's, "The Social Structure of Islam".
In Hogendorn, “The Hideous Trade” there are pointed three main slave producing regions, from the VIIIth through the late XIXth centuries, including the areas were the forested parts of central and eastern Europe was called by Muslims the “Bild as-Saqaliba” (“slave country”). Gues where's that? Slavery was openly practiced in both Ottoman Turkey, and Shiite Iran, even through the first decade of the 20th century. (Ehud Toledano, "Slavery and Abolition in the Ottoman Middle East"). I admit that the raids for slaves diminished through the XVIII century and although they cannot be compared with the horror of mid-15th through late 17th, they didnt't stop, it was a profitable business, and as you can see there still was a market as late as the fall of Ottoman Empire. Also I can add some aspects of Chercassians behavior by the time when they were resettled by the Ottomans in Northern Bulgaria, but I won't, because you'll immediately say that i'm biased(I'm an ethnic Bulgarian). I'll just mention that for the several decades of their presence the cry "Cherkezi!" was synonymous to "Plague!" or "Run for your lives!".



    


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 15:59
I am surprised that the connection between the words ''slave'' and ''slav'' has not been mentioned in this thread.

Regarding the slavery of slavic people or east-Europeans , I would like to remind every body that It should not be discussed or forgotten as something of the past because it still very much exists openly and in a world wide scale. Women from eastern Europe are still being abducted, tricked , deceived and sold all over the world for prostitution and pornography. There was this news of this Ukrainian man last year who was looking for his wife who was kidnapped and sold . He was looking for her all over Turkey where it was believed that she was taken to. Also here in Japan, there are so many Russian women who are forced in to prostitution. I would like to warn every body who reads this post. Whoever looks at pornography is very likely to be contributing to this sex slavery.
    
    
    
    
    


Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 15:37
In the days of piracy, Barbarossa and such raided along the whole European coast to man the galleys and to be sold off in slave markets, as Desperado has already pointed out. There is even mention somewhere of slave raids off the Irish, Cornish coasts and Scilly Isles .

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Posted By: think
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 19:12
Also here in Japan, there are so many Russian women who are forced in to prostitution


Only way to counter that is to target the main players in the Russian/Jew/Azeri/Chechnyan mafia..






Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 23:40
indeed, that womens were not abducted by turks, japans or others, but by their own people.
 
Infact Turkey is actively fighting against this slavery. It decreased somehow, but I dont think fate of russian women changed at all. They just find another country.
 


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 00:23
The real problem is not the existence of people who make a business out of it such as the mafias. It is not a matter of who abducts them and who doesn't. The root problem is the existence of the market for it. As long as the market and the need for pornography and prostitution exists, people who make business out of it will grow and replace each other like weeds no matter how many times you stop or cut them. We should solve the root problem, otherwise it will never stop. All the men in the world should unite and boycott prostitution and pornography, I might be an idealist but since humans have the ability and mind to control their desires unlike animals and also are capable of feeling compassion ( in this case towards enslaved women) it is not too much to ask . Or is it?
    
    
    


Posted By: think
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 06:45
Boycott pornography...Yeh right, how many sane males are going to want to do that. 


Posted By: think
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 06:46
Boycott pornography...Yeh right, how many sane males are going to want to do that. 


Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2006 at 07:45
Originally posted by Desperado

  I admit that the raids for slaves diminished through the XVIII century and although they cannot be compared with the horror of mid-15th through late 17th, they didnt't stop, it was a profitable business, and as you can see there still was a market as late as the fall of Ottoman Empire. Also I can add some aspects of Chercassians behavior by the time when they were resettled by the Ottomans in Northern Bulgaria, but I won't, because you'll immediately say that i'm biased(I'm an ethnic Bulgarian). I'll just mention that for the several decades of their presence the cry "Cherkezi!" was synonymous to "Plague!" or "Run for your lives!".


It was not really a resettlement by choice, the Chercassians that came to Dobrudja were mostly survivors of the genocide.
I am curious as to what happened to them, since not many Cherkessians remain there todays. Were they wiped out again in 1878 when Russia invaded the area?



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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 01:21
and though intermarriage, their descendents would lose any of their blond and blue-eyed characteristics.


Actualy they wouldn't, they would just be less likelyto express those traits in their offspring.

Boycott pornography...Yeh right, how many sane males are going to want to do that.


Would't make a difference, the problem is the mafias, not the existence of pornography (which is just one of a million outlets for making money for them). Besides, most of the world's pornography is made in the US by legit companies who are regulated and policed.
It its invisible that the problems begin, typicly in places that outlaw it and thus thereby ensure that the industry falls entirely into the hands of the most ruthless who couldn't care less for the law, or people not close to them.

Ultimatly countries need to accept that they are places that they alone cannot police, and work together more, sharing resources and such. Unfortunatly, attempts to do this are frustrated by politics, and can lead to one-way relationships.


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 05:44
Originally posted by Cywr

Would't make a difference,

Why whould it not make a difference? If there is no need or market for prostitusion and pornography , people would not be able to make business out of it. Will you open a shop whose product nobody is interested in? If nobody needs or wants what you sell , you won't be able to keep the shop going.

Originally posted by Cywr

the problem is the mafias, not the existence of pornography (which is just one of a million outlets for making money for them).

    I know that sex slavery is only one of many things that mafias make money from , but that is not the issue . we are not discussing the mafias and what keeps them going. We are discussing the sex slavery here.


    
    
    
    


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2006 at 06:20
Because boycotting pornography won't make the demand go away, the sort of people who willingly and knowingly watch porn made by people forced into it, aren't going to join in in that boycott. So some college brats no longer look at playboy.com, yeah, thats really gonna help people kidnapped into sexual slavery.

Besides, you'd just have organised criminal gangs selling lucrative backcopies of Playboy, making them even richer. There is always demand, and when one controls supply totaly, its big money time, no how small overall demand may seem in the big picture of things, which is why organised crime dominates in these areas.



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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 03:08
First of all I have to apologize to the original poster who started this thread because this argument regarding sex slavery is going off-topic. I will try to open a a thread of it's own if it keeps going on.

Cywr , I never suggested to outlaw pornography and prostitution. Boycott is more of an voluntary act which means it is down to each individual person whether he/she participates in it or not.
I am sure that so many men will stop being customers of pornography and prostitution once they are informed about the sex slavery behind the scene , and it would not be only ''college brats '' as you put it. The problem is that most people do not know the existence of sex slavery and it is down to the media and education system as to informing and educating people on the reality of sex slavery behind pornography and prostitution. If even a quarter of the men who are currently customers of prostitution and ponnography stop being one, then the market will shrink and so many women would be saved. If the market shrinks it will also be much easier to point out the people behind the scene and police them.

It is obvious that we all agree with each other that sex slavery should not exist , but it seems to me that some people are just not able to give up pornography/prostitution and therefore are not able to accept that the existence of the market for it is the root cause of sex slavery.
To all the people who happen to read this thread. Which one is more important? The life of a woman or your bodily pleasure? The answer is completely down to you,
    
    
    
    


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 03:55
A volentary boycott won't work precisely because its volentary. Lots of people won't put down their playboy rag (or the hardcore equivilent) because they know that the people in them volenteerd on their own accord and were well compensated for it (irrigardless of what you think of the judgement of those who willingly participate in porn).
And the people who at the core of the problem, the ones who knowlingly and willingly take advantage of those, men, women and children, forced into sexual slavery, are totaly unaffected.

Greater international transparicy and co-operation is needed for this, and renember, its so much more than sex slavery, its people trafficing and exploitation in general, from abused and very poorly payed east European and Chinese fruit pickers in the EU (or Mexicans in the US), to dead Africans washing up on the shores of S. Europe becuase their 'guides' were to cheap to give them life jackets or provide fresh drinking water.
Essentialy migrational matters and poverty falls into it too.

I mentioned the 'college brats' and playboy.com because many of them won't see the direct connection to their online viewing habbits, and say, the plight of an Ukranian prostitute in Paris or Istanbul or wherever, cowed into keeping quiet through fear of a beating or even deportation (and thus a return to the poverty they were so desperate to excape). And no matter how selfish and self-centred you might think they are, they are right to an extent, changing their online viewing habits won't do a damn.

Maybe its a cynical view, but thats the way i see it.
Give interpol more powers in such matters, have much much stricter sentencies against people smuggling and those who assist them, crack down on on offshore tax havens, or whatever it takes. Though ultimatly, making sure there are few extremely poor and desperate Ukrainian girls who think that moving to Paris or Istanbul will make things better, is the only sure way to end it.


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: think
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 05:02
Essentialy migrational matters and poverty falls into it too


Some would say thats too nationalistic because more or less what your saying is immigration=increase in crime. Which is no doubt true but how do you think the media would react to what you just said...You'd be up there with le Pan an the BNP.
Truthfully, would Interpol let alone police officers even go into these ethnic ghettos all over Europe to weed out the pimps, mafiosos, drug dealers etc etc..
Youve got to look at it realistically. Look what happened when 2 Illegal immigrants electrocuted themselves in France.

An on top of that theres all the organized crime.
Let alone the homegrown criminal entrapeneurs (spelling?)

Greater international transparicy and co-operation is needed for this, and renember, its so much more than sex slavery, its people trafficing and exploitation in general


Definately. But what is "international transparicy" exactly.
The Western worlds main problem is were more or less letting crime just waltz in through the door.....














Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 05:29
Some would say thats too nationalistic because more or less what your saying is immigration=increase in crime.


No, what i'm saying is that restrictive migrational practices mean that those who want to cross borders to increase their livelyhood (and there are a great many such people), will willingly put themselves at the mercy of those who would think nothing of ruthlessly exploiting them.
This is exactly what happens to people who eventualy find themsevles as sex slaves. Far from being kidnapped, they approach people trafficers who say "If you give me 4000 Euros, i'll get you to Paris", only they don't have 400 Euros, "no problem" says the people smuggler, "i'll get you a job when you get there, you pay be back, and then we're even". No points for guessing what that job is.

As for Interpol, they shouldn't waste their time with small fish, they should go after the big players, those native ethnics who live in their richman's ghettos and profit from this.




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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 05:35
If was a refugee i'd peddle drugs because what are you gonna do ? Lock me up in nice cell for a few years


I attended school with refugees, most of them from Bosnia. None of them were drug dealers. On the contrary, they were more likely to be the victemds of drug dealers and other criminals than anything else. I suspect i wouldn't be much different from them. Of course, if i was allowed to work, there wouldn't be the temptation to turn towards crime in order to feed myself and maybe wear decent clothes and drive a car for a change.


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: think
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 05:40
No, what i'm saying is that restrictive migrational practices mean that those who want to cross borders to increase their livelyhood (and there are a great many such people), will willingly put themselves at the mercy of those who would think nothing of ruthlessly exploiting them


I dont quite comprehend. Are you saying that people should be allowed to immigrate more "freely" so they dont get taken advantage of by ruthless criminals.



Posted By: think
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 05:44
attended school with refugees, most of them from Bosnia. None of them were drug dealers. On the contrary, they were more likely to be the victemds of drug dealers and other criminals than anything else. I suspect i wouldn't be much different from them. Of course, if i was allowed to work, there wouldn't be the temptation to turn towards crime in order to feed myself and maybe wear decent clothes and drive a car for a change


I edited that part out. I wasnt really meaning "refugees" from Bosnia but more so refugees from volatile areas such as Africa..




Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 05:58
I dont quite comprehend. Are you saying that people should be allowed to immigrate more "freely" so they dont get taken advantage of by ruthless criminals.


I'm saying that it is the restrictions combined with alot of people wanting to migrate that create the current enviroment. Supply and demand and all that. Ether reduce demand, or increase supply. That in a simplified sense can mean providing more opportunities for people who want to migrate and work, or by reducing poverty in the places where people want to migrate from.
Take your pick.

Why. Once they are gone there will be another 100 guys who are ready to climb up the ladder of the criminal world..


I'm not sure if you are familiar with Interpol, but they are international in scope. As such they should concern themselves with criminals who are international in scope, and leave petty crime to the local cops.

Look at America. Whats the point of chasing South American gangsters when another 500 could just walk into America unharmed.


I think America's criminal problem is a little closer to home. Besides, my understanding is that its difficult to walk from S. America into the US, theres a wall in the way. Indeed, the US Mexican boarder is the most heavily guarded border between peacefull nations on the planet. Makes one wonder at the futility of it all.

I wasnt really meaning "refugees" from Bosnia but more so refugees from volatile areas such as Africa..


I don't think it matters what continent they come from. Its largely down to:
a) The nature of the refugee, suprise suprise, studies have shown that refugees who come from violent backgrounds often turn to violence themselves. Perhaps some counciling upon arrival in their new found refuge is in order? Instead of being hounded by the local gutter press and taunted by local thugs.
b) Often they are not permitted to work and expected to live off meagre handouts in bog-standard bed and breakfast type outlets, if they're lucky, if not they get stuck in 'detention centres'. Naturaly frustrating if they are quailified and skilled people who are capable of feeding themselves.

Incidently, Bosnians in the Netherlands have slightly higher rates of criminalty than the native population, but not a great deal higher, and it still leaves the majority of them as law abiding non-citizens with limited rights. Not bad eh?


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: think
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 06:33
delete Smile













Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 08:23
Nice thread hijack btw.
I don't buy into the "stop the migrants and all the bad things will go away" mantra. Not only is it dumb, its extremly niave.

mmmm how many refugees are truly qualified.


Often quite high, as its typicly the well off and well educated ones who are best able to get away.

Other than that, i just can't be bothered.



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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 16:16
I have opened a topic with the title ''sex slavery'' in the intellectual discussions part of the forum. From now on, please post your opinion and ideas regarding the issue of sex slavery there. Please click    http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16436&PID=306389#306389 - THIS LINK     in order to go to the new thread. Thank you.
    
    
    



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