2. Do the portuguese see themselves as a distinct ethnic group from the spanish?

 

3. I believe that spain absorbed portugel at one time during the hapsburgs? 1600s? How did portugal become independent again?

 

2. The languages are different. They see themsleves different although a Spanish or Portugese member could answer to this more precisely.

 

3. Yes, under Charles V, Portugal and Spain, as well as the HRE were united under the Habsburgs. It was the middle of the 16th century. Later on, already during the rule of Felipe II, the Portugese revolted and became independent. I hope I made no important mistakes here.

Politicaly, Portugal existed as two counties: Portucale and Coimbra. Both were feudataris of the Kingdom of Galicia, absorved into Leon. To put this simply (because the process of early state-building is quite complex, with several shifts and changes), in the late 11th century, both counties were granted to Henry, the ninth son of Duke Odo I of Burgundy, by Alfonso VI, the self-called Emperor of Two Spains, along with his daughter Teresa. After the death of Alfonso VI in 1109, there was a war between his daughter Urraca, mother of future Alfonso VII and Henry and Teresa for the control of Portucale. Eventualy a treaty was signed confirming that Alfonso VII would be king and that the Counties of Portucale and Coimbra would remain in Burgundy's hands. Yet Henry supposedly began gathering a following of local nobility and French nobles whose purpose was to gain independence, a first, from the powerful barons of Galicia. He died before any of it came to be, but his son Afonso Henriques continued the struggle. Firstly, he refused to pay homage to his cousin Alfonso VII. Then, he entered the Reconquista, which apeased in some way the King of Castilla-Leon. In the process, he battled his own mother for control of the realm in 1128 and in 1139 he battled in Ourique (legend comes into place here) where he, under God's protection after Christ himself appeared to him, defeated the Moors, who suposedly outnumbered him. After the victory, he was publicly acclaimed Rex Portucalensis (King of the Portuguese). This gave into more confrontation with Alfonso VII, but he eventually allowed him to wear that title in 1143, the Treaty of Zamora, whose misinterpretation often sees there the date of Portugal's foundation. In fact, Afonso Henriques wanted more than just King of the Portuguese - King of Portugal would be more likely. So, has he continued his battling against the Moors, taking the vital city of Lisbon in 1147, he pressed (and payed) the Papacy to confirm him and his new Kingdom. Confirmation arrived only in 1179 (Afonso was already 70), by the grace of Pope Alexander III, who blessed the Kingdom of Portugal and its King, Afonso I Henriques. Under papal protection, issues with Castilla-Leon settled (despite other attempt of the Castillians to gain Portugal back) and Portugal concentrated in building its territory by way of the Reconquista of land to Moors. This process ended in 1249 and, in 1267, the borders of Portugal were confirmed and remain unchanged till today.

 

2. As I said previously, there are a lot of Historical facts that support some ethnical diferences from today's Spain. It is argued, although not entirely prooved, that Portugal has a bigger Celtic influence. What is proved is that, product of Reconquista crusading in the Middle Ages, many of the current families descend from Franks, Normans or Saxons, as oposed to Spain's Gothic ancestry. Then there is also the degree of assimilation of Muslim customs, which was greater in Portugal and, obviously, Anndaluzia.

 

The matter of the Language is also an issue. Portuguese has little to do with Castillian, although it is a lot closer than other Spanish dialects, such as the obvious Basque. In vocabulary, the closest Spanish language to Portuguese is Catalan. However, foneticly, the closest language to Portuguese is medieval Langue d'Oc (which also influenced Catalonia).

 

3. Portugal was united to the Habsburg Empire under Philip II, after he payed the Portuguese higher nobility and CLergy to elect him. He was one of six contenders to the throne of Portugal, after the death of King Henrique in 1580, and one of the three with fewer chances to get it hereditarily. Rannucio Farnese, Duke of Parma, was the closest in line, followed by Catarina of Braganza and Antonio, Prior of Crato. The last two were Portuguese, but had their problems. Catarina was obviously a woman and Antonio was a bastard son. It was King Henrique himself who, given these choices, urged Philip to try and succeed him. In the end Philip got it by bribe and a show of force by the Armada in the Bay of Lisbon.

 

During the 60 years of Habsburg rule, although cooperation with the Portuguese elite was estabilished (including the House of Bragança, who he had displaced from the throne), opposition was common among lower ranks of nobility and merchants, due to the bad policies of Spain concerning the Portuguese colonies, who now suffered attacks from Dutch, French and even Portugal's historical allies of England. All under the excuse they were attacking the Habsburgs. In fact, the colonies all retained Portuguese settlers and administration, apart from Ceuta, whose portuguese inhabitants, refusing to recognize Philip, were kicked out and replaced by Spanish.

In the process, lots of ink spread. in the 1600's, Portuguese Literature reflorished in this period, with a very autonomist flavour. Several anti-Spain propaganda was being printed in main urban centres, while the Habsburg increased taxing to pay for their own dabblings in the 30 Years War. In was in the confusion of the conflict that Portugal, Andaluzia and Catalonia signed a pact backed up by Richelieu's France to sublift and declare independence. 1640 was the chosen year. Andaluzia never made it to coup, while Catalonia was easily defeated. Portugal, due to a restructuring of policy under new king João IV, grandson of Catarina of Bragança, gathered internation support and recognition among Spain's enemies, such as France, Sweden and especially England (the Portuguese showed themselfs as a great supporters of Royalists in the Civil War against Cromwell, andtheir services were acknowlaged by Charles II).

 

Open war in the borders took place between 1640 and 1668, when dried up and constantly defeated Spain finally relinquished all claims to Portugal and its colonies. The now spanish population of Ceuta refused to return to Portugal, so that became the only territory to be given away by Portugal in the Treaty of Lisbon.

 

This a very brief and basic summup of events. I hope it answered your questions. If you have further doubtd, don't hesitate to ask... 

 

We have a common past untill their segregation from Leon. Not from Spain.

 

And Spain never have conquest Portugal, Castilian army help Philp II to claim their crown, but not Aragonese Army. Their became independent at same time as Catalonia, The Spanish King could recover Catalonia but not Portugal.

 

Yes the language is different, is another Spanish language like Catalan or Castilian (more known as Spanish).

 

One important aspect to show that in middle ages was as Spanish as Castila and Aragon ir the Civil War in Castila between the Isabela and Juana suporters. The fisrt was helped by Aragon (Isabela was the Aragonse king's wife) and the second by Portugal (the same but with Portugal)

 

Well, thanks for clearing things up.

 

2. how similiar are the foods?

 

3. Are the languages similiar enough where spanish speakers can understand portuguese speakers?

 

4. Are there many spaniards living in portugal and many portuguese living in spain?

 

2. Very similars. The same that in the previous point.

 

3. Well in Spain there are some languages. I speak Catalan and Castilian (you know that as Spanish). Portuguese is another, very close, but like Italian. Galician language is very similar (many peolpe yhink that is the same of Portuguese). I know two languages and i can understand many things of Italian and Portuguese, all are very close, but remember that are different.

 

4. Yes, but is a common thing near the border line, for the border towns is like the border doesn't exist, however is the oldest border in Europe.

 

Although, technically, the border between Spain and Portugal is still to be defined.

 

And Rider, by La Manche, surely you mean the ENGLISH CHANNEL, old boy?

 

1. Similar, but althogheter diferent if you pay atention to details. There is the formality of the language, which is higher in Portugal, there is the folklore, also diferent, etc... Culturaly, I have to reestate what I said previously: the biggest link is the muslim heritage.

 

2. Let's put this way. I don't like what I eat in Spain, and I'm pretty sure they don't like what we eat. This is of course refering to typical cuisine, for the diet is very similar in Portugal, Spain, France and Italy, with meat and vegetable-based dishes, along with the occasional cereal (mostly rice) and pasta.

 

3. Not sure they understand us, I surely can't understand most of them. Galician and Catalan are the ones I understand better. Castillian is a mess, but it most to do with the way they speak, rather than the language itself (they sound very gutural and speak very fast).

 

4. Like Barbaroja said, there are not many, but it is common along the border.

 

Why is still to be defined. I remember that there was a treaty between Spain and Portugal and Spain had to give Olivenza to Portugal. Are yo speaking about that? (Frederik)

 

Although it is Portuguese territory under Spanish administration, I would't mind giving the whole damn thing away. It's not like we need another impovrished rural town.

 

2  - Hey! I like Portuguese food!

 

3 - Well, I'm not able to understand spoken portuguese, if I see it written the thing changes.

 

Another thing, the Spanish most similar language (not dialect) is not the Catalan, it's the Galego, both languages belong to the same family (Galaic-portuguese)

 

Not sure about that, but I am sure that the vocabulary of arabic origin is wider in portuguese than spanish dialects.

 

Yes, Spanish has many words derivated from the Arab, most of them beginning with the prefix "al" .

 

But many names of places come from Arab, in Portugal and in Spain, like Benicassim (do you know the FIB?), Almeria, Algarve, Alacant, Albacete, Benidorm, etc. I think the prefix Beni- means "the son of".

 

But by the way, Spanish dialects are Andaluz, mexican or cuban, not Catalan or Galician (they are different languages) and all have much influence from arab.

It is common to see this process in language jokes, like a british trying to speak german or french, saying things like "zee " instead of "der". 

 

And everyones understand!

 

Pinguin

 

Ò Costa, vê lá se te acalmas!

 

After careful reading and code-breaking of your terrible broken english, I believe you are calling me a liar because I said:

a) that Portunhol wasn't spoken nowdays;

b) Portuguese was closer to Catalan;

 

Allow me to clear your mind a bit.

 

a) like I said in my original post, when asked about Portunhol I replied by stating clearly that I am no expert on the matter and know it only in it's historical context. I absolutely accept that people might speak it nowdays, even thoug I personaly never heard it being spoken.

 

b) I didn't say that Catalan was closer to Portuguese than Castillan (which you misnamed Spanish). I am perfectly aware that it is a lot closer to Galician and Provençal. I just said that I, personally, could easily understand Galicina and Catalan but not the other languages spoken in Spain (including Castillian).

 

Now, if you don't mind, I would apretiate if you didn't call me a liar based on misinterpretations of my writings. This time I'll let it pass, so please refrain next time.

 

Abraço

 

 

And over 8400 lines more. It's basicly a transmorphography of Virgil's "Aeneid".

 

Anyway, the concept of Hispania or Iberia is still valid and goes without saying, however only when refering to geographical features. As far as culture and ethnicity, far to much has come in between that makes it impossible to consider the Iberians as one homogenous people.