Uncovering the obscure origins of the Nooristanis
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran
Forum Discription: Babylon, Egypt, Persia and other civilizations of the Near East from ancient times to 600s AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13944
Printed Date: 21-May-2024 at 05:01
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Uncovering the obscure origins of the Nooristanis
Posted By: Ave1
Subject: Uncovering the obscure origins of the Nooristanis
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 23:20
|
Some people allege they are the descendants of Alexander the Great's armies when he overran Afghanistan. Others claim they are what became of the original Aryan peoples. While there are other claims, no one can truly pinpoint their origins. Anyone want to take a guess? From studying their pre-Islamic religion, they certainly were not in any way associated with the other religions that were present at the time including Zoroastrianism and Buddhism. The pre-Islamic Nooristani religion was an obscure religion with various Gods and unique rituals. Juding from their physical appearance they certainly have retained an extremely caucasian look to them. Nooristani People...     Very very unorthodox clothing that is very different from other normal traditional Afghan attire...   it should be noted that there are many theories out there on their origins. Anyone like to take some guesses? ------------- "Not one American Christian in a hundred realizes that if he lived in Israel, he would be the victim of official discrimination forced...to carry an identification card" - Joseph Sobran |
Replies:
Posted By: Ellin
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 10:47
|
The Nooristanis are cousins of the Kalash tribe/people but who have instead embraced Islam. They reside in various villages of the Afghan valley of Nooristan, just five kilometres from Bumboret (Kalash valley). Obviously being cousins with the Kalash, makes them descendants of the Greek Macedonians also. A British scholar by the name of Michael Wood, quotes in his book "In the Footsteps of Alexander the Great" p8, the following statement which was made by a Kalash named Kazi Khushnawaz; "Long long ago, before the days of Islam, Sikander e Aazem came to India. The Two Horned one whom you British people call Alexander the Great. (sic) He conquered the world, and was a very great man, brave and dauntless and generous to his followers. When he left to go back to Greece, some of his men did not wish to go back with him but preferred to stay here. Their leader was a general called Shalakash [Seleucus]. With some of his officers and men, he came to these valleys and they settled here and took local women, and here they stayed. We, the Kalash, the Black Kafir of the Hindu Kush, are the descendants of their children. Still some of our words are the same as theirs, our music and our dances, too; we worship the same gods. This is why we believe the Greeks are our first ancestors... (Seleucus was one of the Generals of Alexander the Great. He was born in 358 or 354 BC in the town of Europos, Macedonia and died in August/September 281 BC near Lysimathia, Thrace.) http://intelligence-summit.blogspot.com/2006/05/pakistan-tale-of-two-valleys.html Religions always possess certain traditions and rituals which are observed by their followers. The Kalash practice a ritual that is celebrated on August 6th. This feast day is named the Day of the Transfiguration. It is the day where the grapes are brought out to the god Dionysus to be blessed and to guarantee them of a plentiful crop. This ritual can be traced back to Ancient Greece where it was practiced by the cult of Dionysus who paid their respect to the god of fertility and wine. An active member of the cult of Dionysus was Olympia, mother of Alexander the Great, who is said to have recruited many of her son's soldiers and who in return practiced it throughout their expedition (Alexandrou, pg. 184). Their chairs are decorated with drawings such as the ram's horns which symbolize the horns that decorated Alexander the Great's helmet. Battle scenes depicting Greek soldiers are also observed. In the recent archaeological discoveries in Vergina, Greek archaeologists found the exact same replicas as the ones the Kalash use in their homes (National Herald, pg. 7). http://intelligence-summit.blogspot.com/2006/05/pakistan-tale-of-two-valleys.html In 1896 a British explorer by the name of George Robertson visited the Kalash and did a study on them. He concluded that fifty percent of the Kalash's language derives from Ancient Greek. Such similarities can be found in their gods names. Zeus is called Zeo, Aphrodite is called Frodait, the name Dionysus has kept the same pronounciation. http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Asia/Pakistan/photo368056.htm check out the costume similarities. Kalash/Nooristani  Greek Macedonian   |
Posted By: Ave1
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 11:05
|
Ellin, that is some fantastic information, certainly that is powerful evidence right there, that Nooristanis are descendants of Macedonians. Although there are at least some evidence that point to other theories of their origins..since their language is an Indo-Iranian language. It could be that the Macedonians simply gave up their greek language and adopted the local Iranic tongues. This would still be somewhat spurious because the Macedonian Greeks were persistent in maintaining their language and script given the archaeological evidence of coins/structures. ------------- "Not one American Christian in a hundred realizes that if he lived in Israel, he would be the victim of official discrimination forced...to carry an identification card" - Joseph Sobran |
Posted By: Ave1
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 11:22
|
It should be noted that the Greeks have set up some sort of cultural office in the region. Here is a video that they made in the area. http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/english/ex_ka_song.html - http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/english/ex_ka_song.html According to a article I read on the internet, they have a DNA reading that shows their closet relatives would be Yugoslavians (Macedonian?). Some more pics of the obscure rituals      ------------- "Not one American Christian in a hundred realizes that if he lived in Israel, he would be the victim of official discrimination forced...to carry an identification card" - Joseph Sobran |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 11:27
|
Those costumes of Macedonians look NOTHING similar to the Nuristanis. The Nuristanis themselves are made up over half a dozen different languages, and a dozen different tribes.
This Greek talk is making me sick really. Nuristanis and Kalash are not descendants of Greeks, but descendants of Indo-European people who entered the region probably in the past 2,000 years. With them are probably other tribes that settled there.
The fact that they are so cloistered from the rest of Afghanistan is because we drove them out of their lowlands 700 years ago during the Arab, Ghaznavid, Afghan, and Mongol invasions of the land. This has been said by an expert on the Nuristani people, Richard F. Strand.
I recommend visiting his websites to see the fact about the Nuristani people: http://users.sedona.net/~strand/ - http://users.sedona.net/~strand/
--
Nuristanis have only recently converted to Islam, and they were the first in the country to start an armed Muslim revolt against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.
Their features are not that 'unique' to Afghans. The more remote you go in an Afghan or Tajik village, the more likely you will see light-haired or light-eyed people.
------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 11:35
|
Their god was not called Zeus either. Quote from Richard F. Strand:
Before their conversion to Islām the Nuristānis practiced a form of ancient Hinduism, infused with accretions developed locally. They acknowledged a number of human-like deities who lived in the unseen Deity World (Kāmviri d'e lu; cf. Sanskrit deva lok'a-). Certain deities were revered only in one community or tribe, but one was universally revered as the Creator: the ancient Hindu god Yama Rāja, called imr'o in Kāmviri. The deities guided peoples' destinies and could be influenced through sacrifice, prayer, and dance. Supplicants communicated with the deities through shamans, who would go into a trance after the area was purified with juniper smoke to invite the deities' presence. Such communication often resulted in the disclosure of a transgression of purity against a diety, who demanded a sacrifice of livestock in appeasement ------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Ave1
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 11:40
|
Afghanan, I would somewhat agree that there is evidence that shows that they may not be necessarily Macedonian for instance, their Music and Language. Firstly, their language is Indo-Iranian. Hear how they count from 1-10.. any one of us (Afghans/Iranians/Tajiks) can easily recognize the similarities.. http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/JFIFGM/GMLyd/GMaud12-9.qt - http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/JFIFGM/GMLyd/GMaud12-9.qt Secondly, their Music is almost identical to Tajiks and Pashtuns (Iranic peoples) Here is a sample.. http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/JFIFGM/GMLyd/LP68-17mdans.qt - http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/JFIFGM/GMLyd/LP68-17mdans.qt http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/Imra/Audio/Kalasha97PT/Kal.2pikefl.qt - http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/Imra/Audio/Kalasha97PT/Kal.2pikefl.qt On the other hand though, there is evidence that shows that their dances are very similar to Greek/Macedonian and nothing similar to their neighbors as shown here: http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/JFIFGM/GMFilm/Joshigdans-1-456.mov - http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/JFIFGM/GMFilm/Joshigdans-1-456.mov http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/Imra/Film1999/danse1.mov - http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/Imra/Film1999/danse1.mov http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/Imra/Film1999/danskrakal.mov - http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/Imra/Film1999/danskrakal.mov The above two clips of them dancing shows an extreme similarity to traditional folk Greek dancing. Again, this is a highly contested topic as no one can definitvely pinpoint their origins.. ------------- "Not one American Christian in a hundred realizes that if he lived in Israel, he would be the victim of official discrimination forced...to carry an identification card" - Joseph Sobran |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 11:49
|
Thats not specific to Greeks or Macedonians, that dance is performed by Kurds, by Bulgars, by Iranians, by Tajiks. Holding hands and dancing in a circle is not uncommon even among Africans! ------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 11:58
|
Oh please the Greeks settled all over what is now Afghanistan and Pakistan. Hell several cities were even founded by them, Sirkap, Sialkot called Sangla then, Jhelum, Kandahar etc.
So the Macedonian theory is out.
And as Afghanan, said such features are common to that area, where the Nuristanis/Kalsah live. Light hair/ eyes are common enough in that region.
They are "caucasoid" after all.
------------- |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 12:05
Some pictures the blondey worshipers don't want you to see:
          ------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 12:07
|
Kandahar was not found by the Greeks. Kandahar was formely in the province of Arochosia, and before that, Proto-Elamitic settlements were found in the region. I believe even Sialkot was formerly known as Sakala and not found by the Greeks. ------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Ave1
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 12:17
|
I believe a Greek "Teachers" union went to the region to set up some sort of office there. I am sure they were dumbfounded when they uncovered that the Nooristanis actually speak an Indo-Iranian language. Some people claim that some of the locals say they are descendants of Alexander merely for tourist dollars. ------------- "Not one American Christian in a hundred realizes that if he lived in Israel, he would be the victim of official discrimination forced...to carry an identification card" - Joseph Sobran |
Posted By: Ave1
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 12:20
Here is a nice photo I found...that shows their diversity.. so that I won't be castigated as a "Blondy" worshipper by Afghanan   ------------- "Not one American Christian in a hundred realizes that if he lived in Israel, he would be the victim of official discrimination forced...to carry an identification card" - Joseph Sobran |
Posted By: Ave1
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 12:40
|
A religious ritual that was taped by the Greek Teacher's association http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/Imra/Text/sacrifice/sacrifice98.html - http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirmali/nirmali/Imra/Text/sacrifice/sacrifice98.html ------------- "Not one American Christian in a hundred realizes that if he lived in Israel, he would be the victim of official discrimination forced...to carry an identification card" - Joseph Sobran |
Posted By: Ave1
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 13:23
Sakala as the Sakas (Scythians) ? ------------- "Not one American Christian in a hundred realizes that if he lived in Israel, he would be the victim of official discrimination forced...to carry an identification card" - Joseph Sobran |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 09:01
|
If i may just ask, for the cities theorized to be founded by alexander, what is the evidence that settlement did not exist in those localities beofre his arrival. ------------- |
Posted By: Savdogar
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 14:23
|
very very very interesting, exotic, multi-cultural, multi-ethnic region is Afghanistan. i hope you will regret stupid aryamanistic ideas and PR your country. No doubt Afghanistan can become one the most exotic place to visit and touristic center. however, your government is stupid. ------------- ...i dont need this... |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 01:26
|
Our government is very messed up , I agree. We have not had a stable government since early 1970s. ------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Savdogar
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 12:47
|
much earlier your government was always "sold"
if you allow Russia, US, Iran to make decision on the behalf of you, you will never stand up.
you see, non-afghan are ruling your life (i mean the future of your country) ------------- ...i dont need this... |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 13:18
|
The governments in Afghanistan has always been minimally effective in nature and the surrounding kingdoms would offer support but were allowed to practice and do what they pleased. This is what allowed Afghanistan to prosper in peace among its neighbors. When the country would be invaded, they would rally together to fight a common enemy. This happenned when the Mongols invaded, when the British Invaded, and again when the Russians invaded.
When the British began to interfere in the natural balance in the country, they started to polarize groups against one another for their own benefit. This is really what led to the destabilization on ethnic lines in the country.
THe British sponsored the Hazaras to revolt in Afghanistan, which lead to their subjugation by the Emir, Abdur Rahman Khan. The British sponsored spy network based out of Qezelbash of Afghanistan, which also was subdued by the Afghans. They also created a cronie system which was destroyed again by Afghans. They made treaties with Afghanistan but would wanted to control Afghanistan, and they were defeated on that front too by the Afghans.
Afghan as a nationality is a relatively new concept created in the 20th century by the Emir of Afghanistan, who helped forge the borders of the nation as well. The British forced Afghanistan to become a landlocked country and which it's foreign investment would be controlled by the nations surrounding them.
All landlocked countries in Central Asia are being influenced one way or another by their neighbors. Russia again tried to seperate Afghanistan along ethnic lines and they failed, when the entire country rose up against them. The Taliban and their Arab and Paki allies really polarized ethnic groups against one another and they too failed.
NATO and the US today are trying to forge a national government, but they are failing in that the major ethnic group in the country is opposed to their presence.
All the ideas of unity that are being presented by Muslim countriers, or by European countries are failing and the reason is that they have failed to garner indigenous support, which can only ferment through Afghans themselves.
Afghanistan needs indigenous leaders, not foreign puppets. ------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 22:38
I know enough about greeks to write a book LOL.
Nuristanis do have the mixed Greek culture from their forefather (Greeks and Afghans). Genitic have not proven nuristanis as Greeks or macedonian. Just like we can't find semitic gene in Yousifzai's , although Apradies could be semitic its either from 10 lost tribe of Isreal from 1000 BCE (In Herat) or from Arab settlers, which is not known, but they give more signs of present Arabs.
Light hair is common among Afghans.
Green eyes are also very common among Afghans duo to regional and environmental affects. (genetically there is no difference between Green eyes and Brown not like south indian/African Dark eyes) ------------- |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 12:48
|
What exactly of their culture is Greek NIck? ------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Savdogar
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 13:59
|
afghanistan needs leaders who are patriotic not nationalist. too many ethnic groups living there.
cant believe that many centuries ago it was KHORASAN. ------------- ...i dont need this... |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 14:07
|
Whether Patriotic, or Nationalist, they have to be from Afghanistan, not from Maryland, USA like Hamid Karzai. ------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 18:16
NO. too many tribes live in Afghanistan,( 80%) of Afghans are from the Aryano-Afghan race. Again Aryano/Irano-Afghan is Race. They look the same. Act the same, etc.
Afghanistan has more tribes then any nation in this world. I thinK its 60 tribes in Afghanistan alone.
65-70% of Iran are also Irano-Afghan race.
70 % of Turkmenistan are also from Irano-Afghan race.
------------- |
Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 18:21
They used to follow the old Greek religion, gods like Zous was known to Kafiris.Greeks didn't influnced the afghan population. Few greeks came with their families and settled in Nuristan, infact more greeks settled in western iran then Eastern Iran. Eastern iran was known as hell.
So I don't think many would settle there. Today maybe 15% of nuristanis could be liftovers of Alexanderous and have been mixed with local Afghans. So it would be hard to find pure greek. ------------- |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 20:02
|
Where is the proof that they worshipped Zues? ------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Savdogar
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 04:19
|
Nick, you are sick. there are plenty of afghans studying in my university. they are different.
while such stupid "Aryans" exist, your country (afghanistan) will never stand up.
Turkmens are not "Aryan", they have another cult - Prophet Turkmenbashi.
nick, you dont know the history, you dont know Mavarounnahr, Khorasan.
All you know is "gipsy" Aryan.
true aryans are central asian gipsies (or "luli"). Scientists have already proved it.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------- ...i dont need this... |
Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 15:53
My friend nothing personal Do you know what I just said or you are not feeling well.
I said the above are All from one race. Is that understandable. Please quote about what u have problems with. If not I am more then happy to provide you links. ------------- |
Posted By: Savdogar
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 04:01
|
Aryan - is NOT race!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this is SICK ------------- ...i dont need this... |
Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 13:59
Can you please quote. Cause I did not said the way you think. ------------- |