Dimitris Gounaris was guilty?
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Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Modern History
Forum Discription: World History from 1918 to the 21st century.
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Printed Date: 07-Jun-2024 at 20:47
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Topic: Dimitris Gounaris was guilty?
Posted By: Alparslan1071
Subject: Dimitris Gounaris was guilty?
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 14:53
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Why asia minor campaigne resulted with the negative result?
Venizelos stayed alive but Gounaris and Hadjianesti have been shooted by gun.Turkish people says we win but what about the Britain stopped the help Greece?
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Replies:
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 15:11
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well, what about russian help to Turkey? what about france army at south eastern Turkey? or italian retreat without war? ext. War is one part of larger politics. Our human lost at independence war is not more than 30.000, It is low with compared ww1.
So If you are asking. If brits continued to help greeks with weapon, we would have still good chance to win.(Russia was helping us.) But If Brits used their army, we would lose war.
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 15:11
Because of the Greek interism.The Greeks want to liberate all the lost lands and finally lost and those that took after the WW I (Smyrni and East Thrace). Was a good lesson for the Greek bigotry. ------------- 
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 15:22
Those were just the victims of the real guilties.As about the role of the Power was the same as is today.In 1920 the Greeks were the good gyus and in 1922 became the bads.And of course also as about the Turks.
Foreign policy of the Great powers via guide of the so-called Stock Nations
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Posted By: Alparslan1071
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 00:47
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Akritas , you are correct .Real guilty is greek politics who wanted to use
this bad position of the ottoman empire and they wanted to use it for their
interior policy and british empire used their this openion.
Britian used Greece as a weapon against Turkey.When Russia and the France and italy started to help Turke Greece become a bad Guy.
What i say Venizelos name was given an airport and he is still a honored person but what about Gounaris.no body remember him.
And Venizelos decided to organize asia minor campaigne with King.
How sad.
Your nickname is the name of the plan of Colonel Grivas in Cyprus against Turks?A step for the Enosis
 byee
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Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 08:07
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No, his nickname probably reffers to byzantine akrites. But I'll let him reply on that.
It's true what you say, that Venizelos is honoured until today, while others are forgotten.
To my oppinion, that's unfair. People like Gounaris weren't much, so they would be forgotten anyway today. But the deeper question is why is Venizelos so much honoured while no monarchists (especially King Konstantinos) are.
It's the sad consequence of the behaviour of the Greek Monarchy in the '60s, which resulted in abolishing monarchy in 1974. After that point, all great monarchists of the past were forgotten, overshadowed by the 'democratics' of their time.
Venizelos brought much good and much bad to Greece. Many people tend to accuse the King for his stance in WWI, but they don't see that Venizelos almost brought civil war, and supported the French attacks and bombardments in Peireus. Or it is often said that the biggest mistake was that the monarchists won the elections of 1921 (or 1920?). Well, they forget that the Venizelists started the war with Turkey. And that the outcome of the elections was result of a democratic express of the people's will.
It was a huge hypocricy that the monarchists were shot ('the execution of the six', as it is called in Greece -so much about 'democracy'), while in fact, although they were incompetent, they never betrayed the nation's intersts. They found Greece however in deep sh*t, and no one could actually pull her out. It was Plastiras, a fanatic Venizelist, who illegally did a coup, and took over the government who did all this. Plastiras was a good officer and soldier, but not a good politician (as it was proven also 25 years later).
For what it's worth however, Venizelos was against the execution.
Why Greece lost the war, it's a big discussion, and I really don't think that the Turks are able to do it, mainly because it seems that for some reason they have turned this war to some sort of 'independence war' (from whom really?), and they cannot look with soberity on that topic.
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Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 09:53
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My username is came from the code name of Mazarakis , the person that organize the Greek struggle in Macedonia and was the cause that the Greek army liberated so fast the Greek lands. As about the Minor Asia campaign , Greece was not use all its armed forces.Two major corps that were in West Thrace and Epirus never used it for obvious reasons.As about Plastiras I agree with xristar. Don't forget that Plastiras regiment never lost any single fight against in any enemy.
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 10:04
The reason why Macedonia was invaded (brutally may I say) so fast was the Bulgarians. They had to face the main weight of the Turkish army as they were closest to the center of the empire. Greeks and Serbs simply had to fill in the vacuum behind. Apart from a few Turkish garnisons there was nothing to stop them from swarming Macedonia and burning and destroying 80% of the Muslim villages. |
Posted By: Alparslan1071
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 11:46
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I found this forum while i was searching for Turkish speaking greeks(Karamanli)and looking for more info about their villages and culture.I am really happy to find this forum and very happy to meet with you (akritas,Leonidas,BG-Turk,xristar all friend who reads and replies my topics)
So, I was reading for years about turkish and ottoman and ancient times history first time in this from i get my answers. Thank you all. Xristar, We call independent war .Sligthly we passed by been colony of Western States./UK,France etc.) During the asia minor campaigne condition suddenly has changed.Because Russia needed a partner about it is regime.Ataturk founded a comunist party 1920 and started to get help from soviet russia. Because of that he really wanted to found that republic and he had lots of enmy in the turkish parliament also. After russia france made an agreement with ankara goverment. I think god also help this turkish people with this reasons.After that Britain didnt want to spend more effort about this problem.and they spend greece and greek people.If we couldnt been invaded by greece maybe i could talk with cappodocia greeks in Cesaria or in central anatolia. I believe that we lived 1000 years together at least.But after 1789 we became enemy.Ottomans became bad guy :) What about colonel Metaxas isnt he the big dictator of Greece? |
Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 07:21
What this crappy post has to do with the topic? Someone needs a new-flamme war to fill his life. As for Venizelos-nobody cant deny his part of involvement in the loss of Asia Minor,but after all he was the only responsible,for the gain of Smyrni's region too. ------------- |
Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 07:58
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We lost Smyrni in the end, Digeni.
Yes, Venizelos was a great man. What I wanted to point out is that we forget the other great men, for political reasons.
It is sad, in Veroia a street with a king's name (Vasileos Konstantinou?) was renamed 'Kentrikis'. What for? -------------
Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 08:04
That`s the absolute truth. ------------- |
Posted By: Alparslan1071
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 08:06
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Digenis ,
I think Venizelos had big creditin the greek nation mind as a saviour or hero about the Crete.He made the crete a greek land again and greek nation didint forget this never ever. after that lot s of time he lost his power but always he became head of the rule. But until 1935 when crete wanted independent he lost. Any greek friend knows that, what happend to General Trikoupis? |
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 08:57
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Maps of that war:
In dawn left corner of this map are shown the numbers of the transferred people after the war. Map of the battle of Dumlupinar - 26 august 1922:
This is one turkish webpage with maps of this war: http://w3.gazi.edu.tr/%7Eertan/NUTUK/NUTUK20.htm - http://w3.gazi.edu.tr/~ertan/NUTUK/NUTUK20.htm And this is one greek website with maps and explanations for this war: http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/13/en/general/maps/ - http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/13/en/general/maps/ ------------- |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 10:06
Why ?
Greeks fought against in two fronts.The Epirus and Macedonia when you fought against in Macedonia and Thrace.
Three were the major reasons that Turkish defence defeated
-The local population
- the usage of the artillery (Krupp)
-the Greek Navy
any comment?
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Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 15:44
In fact Venizelos did much more. He was prime minister during the Balcan Wars-playing a significant role then (for ex. he ordered prince Konstantinos to march towards Thessaloniki,although Konstantinos aim was Monastery (Bitola) ) The involvement of Greece in WW1 under the pressure of Venizelos lead to gain of Western Thrace for Greece.(the other territories lost finally) @xristar. Although i m leftist,i disagree too,with such "revenge" feelings towards the monarchist or even rightist in Greece. I recently took a look again in school's history books ,and i noticed an add in history of 2 Lyceum: It said(for 1940's war against Italians) :"Metaxas rejected the Italian ultimatum -(and the add with different typing(!)  )-maybe against his inner feelings. "(!)-Burn all the fascists, -even when they do the right thing they really dont want to do it!  Konstantinos achieved smth for this country (as supreme commander of the army in Balcan wars-not as King) On the other hand,i cant understand the significant role of Queen Olga,or Prince Nikolaos ,or even Queen Amalia ,so as to "have" their main streets in Athens and Thessaloniki. ------------- |
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 16:37
Yes, here it is:
Well, i don`t say that only the bulgarian army was the crushing factor for the turkish forces. All alied armies has a part in the turkish defeat. But the bigest part of the turkish army was located in Thrace. And every new recruited turkish "tabor"(polk) form Anatolia comes trough the Bosphorus and trough the Dardanelles in Thrace - and directly against the bulgarian forces, but not against the other alies. Thanks to the bulgarian offensive in Thrace and Eastern Macedonia, the turkish forces which were located against the serbian and the greek armies in Macedonia and Epirus were cuted from the core of the turkish power - Anatolia, and they did`nt receive any help from the Anatolian turkish forces. I think that the greek navy also have an important role for this, but if we speak about the numbers of the turkish armed forces - they were bigest and most powerfull in Eastern Tharce. The greek and the serbian armies were biger than the turkish armed forces in Macedonia and Epirus, but the bulgarian forces in Thrace were`nt biger/more than the turks. And in the Eastern Thrace were living many more turks than in Macedonia and in Epirus.
I think, that if the bulgarian army was defeated, then for the serbian and greek non-navy forces would comes "hard times"...
A map of the First Balkan war:
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Posted By: Bashibozuk
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 16:39
Since when pillage, rape, murder is refered as "liberation", especially in foreign lands? When did Greece have ever "gained" and lost these regions, and then dared to "liberate" it? Maybe burning down cities like Aksehir or Afyon is called "liberation" in your nationalist special edition dictionary, but we simply call it invasion. And when the invader gets his ass kicked, that is called liberation, in popular literature.
I don't know what actually happened to him, but Nazim definately knew it. Look at what he wrote:
"Sonra.
Sonra, 30 Ağustosta düşman kuvâyı külliyesi imha ve esir olundu. Esirler arasında General Trikopis : Alaturka sopa yemiş bir temiz ve sırmaları kopuk Frenk uşağı..." (This says he was taken as hostage), after Izmir was liberated. ------------- Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar, Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar. Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar, Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben. |
Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 16:58
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1.377.000 Greeks survived and went to Greece and hundreds thousands slaughtered. I think,for them Western Asia Minor was not liberated by the turkish army.Or was it? ------------- |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 17:07
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Chargemaster in an war you must use all the armed forces including and the Navy.Is known that the Greek Navy never lost any battle against Turkish at the Balkan wars and was also a deterrence power after the Greek defeat in Minor Asia.
As about the numbers I shall remind you that and the Serbs help the Bulgarian forces against Turkish in the siege of Andrianopolis.
47000 troops and 72 artillery pieces were the Serbian aid.
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 17:12
In an war all the parties make crimes.But is oximoron to speak for war crimes the side that condemned via many declarations worlwide as yours. -------------
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Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 18:03
Well, you are not the first man, who remind me that fact. But these serbian troops played very tiny-miny role in the capturing of Adrianople by the bulgarian army, and as a whole were "no-needed". ------------- |
Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 18:09
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No-needed? Do you mean as no-needed as this post in this thread? ------------- |
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 18:24
If you mean your post, maybe...
But actually that serbian contingent was needed for Serbia - because - after the war, that contingent was used by the serbian rulers as a reason to say: Did you see, how great is our army and how our brave troops captured Adrianople?
 What would you make, if our troops was`nt there to help you? These weak bulgarians can`t do nothing without us! We deserve to hold Macedonia for us, because we give you a great help to defeat the turkish garrison of Adrianople! That`s why these troops were "needed" for the Serbian political interests and no-needed for Bulgaria...  ------------- |
Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 07:45
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There's no doubt that the Bulgarian army carried most of the burden of the First Balkan War. Still, the role of the Greek navy was essential as it cut off Macedonia from the Ottoman empire. Essential not only for us (Serbs and Greeks) but also for the Bulgarians.
Wasn't Trikoupis a guy who wrote the book 'command of large units in war'? Well, I don't know if had been cought prisoner, but my guess is he came back (to write at least his book).
And we were actually liberating Asia Minor. For about half of the population it was a liberation. For the other half it was an invasion.
You didn't kick our ass. If it weren't for our huge internal problems, your western border would be at Afyon. And you would be happy about it. -------------
Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: Athanasios
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2007 at 19:30
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actually Greeks benefit much more than bulgarians in the Balkan wars(Salonica,Aegean ports) ...mayby not using the army widely as bulgarians did, but using it correctly ------------- 
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