For those who love Sparta
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mediterranean and Europe
Forum Discription: Greece, Macedon, Rome and other cultures such as Celtic and Germanic tribes
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1298
Printed Date: 25-Apr-2024 at 05:18
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Topic: For those who love Sparta
Posted By: Demetrios
Subject: For those who love Sparta
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 19:08
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So i choosed to limit the poll to kings. It's hard enough to choose. Which king do you like the most? Why ? his deeds,his apophothegms..... |
Replies:
Posted By: Lannes
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 20:10
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It is very hard to choose between Agesilaus and Cleomenes, but I decided to go with Agesilaus. Let's see, where do I start with him? He showed how effective an offensive strike into Persia could be by going virtually unblemished in his attack, he showed he was an astute(and certainly bold) tactician by his victories in Persia and by the victories he achieved upon his return to face the Boeotian threat, and he showed he was an able and logical military leader by the management of his mercenary army, and by the raising of his very strong Asiatic cavalry force. Not to mention that he played a prominent role in saving Sparta from complete defeat at Epaminondas' hands. ------------- τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι; |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 11:47
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Leonidas,because even though he knew the situation was awful he preferred to stay and fight for Sparta and it's dignity. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 12:53
Demaratus!  ------------- 
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Posted By: Demetrios
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 14:22
| Congratulions for your laconism |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 02:30
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He was a traitor! ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Demetrios
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2004 at 17:04
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It was hard to choose, but i finaly decided to vote for Kleomenes. He symbolises for me the renew of sparta. Sparta was a true military power again daring to oppose to the akean ligue and to makedon. He adopted the macedonian phalanx, redistributed the land between cityzens, extanded cityzenship and restored the old spartan education system. Trully a gret king, even in death. A true spartan.... |
Posted By: vagabond
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 23:34
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Leonidas - because Simonides of Ceos was his press agent. O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti tde keimetha tois keinon rhmasi peithomenoi. Traveler, carry this word to the men of Sparta: we who lie here did what they told us to do. ------------- In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan) |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2004 at 03:02
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Wow Vagabod! But I like this translation better:
Go stranger, and to the Lakedemonians say that here, obedient to their laws, we fell
------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: vagabond
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2004 at 14:33
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Thanks Yiannis - but I must I confess - I stole the translation - I'm not that good yet. I can still only read ancient Greek if there is a translation next to it - and even then it doesn't always make sense. But I like your translation better as well. Question for classicists - why - when no one refers to Sparta any longer as Lakedemon but only as Sparta - do we still use the term Lakedemonians instead of Spartans? Would ancients have recognized a difference between the two terms? ------------- In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan) |
Posted By: BattleGlory
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2004 at 16:04
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I'm not sure why we don't. The only reason I can think of, though, is because Lakedaimonian doesn't roll off the tongue so well ------------- ~If you don't know history, you don't know anything. ~Time can change me, but I can't change time. 
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Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 02:14
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The answer is simple: Lakedemonia (Lakonia) is the name of the region. Sparta is the name of the city. Lakonia borders Messenia and Arkadia: http://www.travel-info.gr/Travel/Maps/Map_Peloponnese.htm - http://www.travel-info.gr/Travel/Maps/Map_Peloponnese.htm ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: TJK
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 15:18
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Yeah, thanks to the skilfull use of combination of his infantry and new raised cavalry he aslo defeat famous Thessalian cavalry at Narthakion (394 BC) |
Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 10:10
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Leonidas... He was not your typical king. He sacraficed himself with his men. he didn't lwave them when all the other Greeks retreated. He was a true leader. ------------- |
Posted By: Winterhaze13
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2005 at 14:24
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I think everyone is infatuated with Leonidas because he has acquired such a Romantic image that he is now synonymous with Spartan prestige. He like Julius Caesar is famous for dying. Of course Leonidas died at what many people still consider to be the greatest demonstration of Spartan strength at the battle of Thermopilae(Sorry for the spelling). ------------- Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes. -- Voltaire French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778) |
Posted By: Winterhaze13
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2005 at 10:12
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I think you forgot Lycurgus on your poll. If not for his rigirous military system Sparta may have never become the great military power it was. ------------- Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes. -- Voltaire French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778) |
Posted By: Lannes
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2005 at 21:05
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He wasn't a king. ------------- τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι; |
Posted By: vagabond
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2005 at 05:08
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Thanks Yiannis - now back to that thought (at my age - it usually takes me a month or so to get back to a thought).
I have been looking for references and it seems that they are always talking about the citizens/warriors of Sparta when referencing Lakedemonians. Would the ancients have used Lakedemonian in any reference other than in reference to a citizen of Sparta? Does that make the Helots Lakedemonians? Or would the term never have been applied to them?
------------- In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan) |
Posted By: Lannes
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2005 at 20:51
Calling someone a Lakedaimonian would be the same as calling someone a Lakonian. The words are just two different names for the same area. And yes, there were Lakedaimonian helots. ------------- τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι; |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2005 at 15:36
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no it's not the same area. Lakonia is the surroundign of Sparta proper, and Lakedaimonia is lakonia includign the conquered provicne of messenia. so Lakonia refers to south-east Peleponnes and Lakedaimon to the whole south. the two terms are also not contemporary afaik. ------------- |
Posted By: Lannes
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2005 at 16:33
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Well, as we discussed on MSN, this doesn't really hold ground. It is a matter of which historian you want to beleive, and in this case, I'll take Cartledge over your guy. ------------- τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι; |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2005 at 16:38
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this is how i learned it, I have no idea (and don't care actually) if Lakonia is the same as Lakedaimonia or not. ------------- |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 02:44
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No, just for the record, Lakonia and Lakedemonia are practically the same. It's the South-East part of the Peloponnese. The conquered by the Spartans South-West part is called only Messenia. ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 14:04
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what about this map?
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Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 02:24
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Not that it really does matter, but let's think about it rationally (and forget about the map): Since the Spartans had the Messenians occupied and used them as slaves, why would they be called Lacedemonians if that determination included the slaves as well?
Some links with intersting info on the Spartan society: http://www.anti-rev.org/textes/VidalNaquet92b/part-1.html - http://www.anti-rev.org/textes/VidalNaquet92b/part-1.html http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/cornersofhistory/greecesparta.htm - http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/cornersofhistory/greecespar ta.htm ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 13:08
well, the original province of Sparta was called Lakonia, and the combined provinces of Lakonia and Messenia were then called Lakedaimonia. that has no political reasons, just geographical. and furthermore, ancient Makedonia had a province called Mygdonia... ------------- |
Posted By: Lannes
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 16:24
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Got any more maps or sources that would agree with you? ------------- τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι; |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 02:39
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Just for the record, the present-day prefecture of Lakonia includes a county named "Lacedemonia". (ok, not posted as proof but just as trivia...) ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: vagabond
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 03:10
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Thanks everyone - didn't mean to start another Pelloponesian War just by asking a question. From what I have seen - I can infer that any reference in ancient literature to a Lakedemonian (or a Laconian) that I see would probably refer to a Spartan citizen as Helots (and/or Messenians) would have been specifically referred to as such if they were referred to at all? I don't want to go too far off topic as by now everyone may have forgotten poor Leonidas and Lycergus altogether. ------------- In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan) |
Posted By: Hellinas
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 03:42
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Yiannis >> Just for the record, the present-day prefecture of Lakonia includes a county named "Lacedemonia"<< Originally from Mani even though it's been some years since I've last been there, I've never heard of this "county" where exacttly is this? Yeah I know I'm a disgrace. Anyway, in support of Temujin's Lakonia, all we need to do is look up : Strabo, Geography Book VIII (11) However, I am overstepping the bounds of moderation in recounting the numerous stories told about a country the most of which is now deserted. In fact, Lakonia too is now short of population as compared with its large population in olden times, for outside of Sparta the remaining towns are only about thirty in number, whereas in olden times it was called, they say, 'the country of the hundred cities'; and it was on this account, they say, that they held annual festivals in which one hundred cattle were sacrificed. |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 05:10
Not a discrace, but in any case it's not proper for me, a Samian, to inform you of your place In any case, the term "county" (eparchia) is not really used, it's mostly administrational, so you're excused! Here you go: http://www.gtp.gr/LocPage.asp?id=9695 - http://www.gtp.gr/LocPage.asp?id=9695
In Greek: ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 14:47
one source will suffice any day if the source is true. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 13:06
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Agis IV. Young, nave, foolishly idealistic? Absolutely! Still, Agis IV, deserves praise for his efforts at land reforms that would have led to greater levels of economic equality in Sparti. After all a competent leader should not be measured only by his "warrior" skills! |
Posted By: Mythos_Ruler
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 05:11
I too have a scan of that very nice map. Here's is a cropped section: Laconia = the province in which their city resided. Lacedaemon = The city of Sparta. Lacedaemonia = the land owned (lived in/conquered)by the Lacedaemons (Spartans). However, I don't believe there is any evidence of the word "Sparta" or "Spartans" in ancient texts. If this is correct, where did this term come from? If there is evidence, anyone with a cite? ------------- |
Posted By: conon394
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2005 at 10:44
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The Greek root for Sparta/Spartains was used quite often (Sparte). The name of the Sparta was Sparta, Laconia and its derivations describe the region. The following link should connect to the LSJ entry at Perseus for Sparte. Note Max Inst for Greek Prose/Poetry/Texts. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout.reflang=greek;layout.refembed=2;layout.refwordcount=1;layout.refdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0159;layout.reflookup=%2Aspa%2Frths;layout.refcit=book%3D4%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D4;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2395771;layout.refabo=Perseus%3Aabo%3Atlg%2C0525%2C001 - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout.reflang=gr eek;layout.refembed=2;layout.refwordcount=1;layout.refdoc=Pe rseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0159;layout.reflookup=%2Aspa%2Frths;l ayout.refcit=book%3D4%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D4;doc=Perse us%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2395771;layout.refabo=Pe rseus%3Aabo%3Atlg%2C0525%2C001 |
Posted By: Istor the Macedonian
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2005 at 17:41
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Archidamos, for his speech before the Peloponnesian war starting.
------------- Istor Macedonian, therefore Greek! |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 02-May-2005 at 01:49
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the english language has a way in making new names for everything
------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 24-May-2005 at 07:57
------------- CARRY NOTHING |
Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 24-May-2005 at 07:58
I prefer this translation of mine: Yo, dude, tell them Lacedaemonians that we're buried here, 'cuz that's what they told us to do.  ------------- CARRY NOTHING |
Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 24-May-2005 at 08:29
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And Leonidas was not alone with his 300 Spartans, as many people were heard saying. There were a couple of thousand others, from the surrounding areas as well as from further afar, who either stayed with the Spartans to fight or held various strategic positions at the surrounding highs. Nevertheless, many fled, many were overwhelmed early in the battles, many were forgotten and some really fought. The fact is that in the end there were only the Spartans left fighting, who indeed were only 300, and they would stand there for much longer had they not been betrayed by a local who saw an opportunity of profit in this situation. However, it was indeed a deed of excessive courage and let us not forget that someone in the greek army, when told that the Persians would shoot so many arrows that they would cover the sun, he replied with the equivalent of "cool, we'll be fighting in the shade!". That's what I call defiance... ------------- CARRY NOTHING |
Posted By: GENERAL PARMENION
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 19:32
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THE BATTLE OF THERMOPYLAE ------------- "There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks." (Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA) |
Posted By: bluepheonixs
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2005 at 22:21
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The Spartans are the best soldiers to walk the face of this Earth!
------------- Vini,Vidi,Vinci |
Posted By: okamido
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2011 at 16:34
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