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Why not Hellas?

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Linguistics
Forum Discription: Discuss linguistics: the study of languages
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1272
Printed Date: 12-May-2024 at 14:46
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Topic: Why not Hellas?
Posted By: Christscrusader
Subject: Why not Hellas?
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2004 at 21:27
I was wondering, since Greeks call there land Hellas, why is it everyone else calls it Greece? Where did that come from?

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Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc



Replies:
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2004 at 21:42
Unsuprisingly, like the names for many European countries in various European languages, it comes from the Latin root Graecia.
Why did the Romans call it that, i don't know, maybe the same reason called the Teutons - Germans, the Soumi - Finns etc.


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: vagabond
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2004 at 23:50

Just as in almost every other language, many countries are not referred to by what they call themselves but by what the are called in that language.

Greece - Griechenland - Grecia - Grece  (as Cywr said - all refelcting the same Latin root)

France - Frankreich - Francia (All referring not to the latin name for the land - but to the "Franks" who lived there)

Germany - Allemagne - Germania - Deutschland

Some countries are referred to by what their name means  - which then bears little relationship to the original pronunciation:

Unites States - Etats Unis - Vereinigten Staaten - Stati Uniti

It depends on when the country acquired it's name and how the various languages developed.



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In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)


Posted By: Christscrusader
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2004 at 23:54
I was sayin mostly because greeks call themselves Hellenes, but all other languages referr to them in some form of Greek. None say Hellas or Hellenes in any way. I was jsut curious.

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Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 20-Nov-2004 at 00:29
Well Hellenic is frequently used as a substitute for 'Greek' when describing things, but then English is like that, with multiple words for the same thing from nay different languages.

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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 19:42

What are greeks called in Esperanto?

Because I know that from Cywr's earlier posting they got Wales right? Kymri(?) or something like that?



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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 20:09
Arabic:ونان
Aromanian: Gârtsii
Bahasa Indonesia: Yunani
Bahasa Malayu: Yunani
Belarussian: Грэ́цыя
Breton:
A' Ghrèig
Bulgarian: Гърция
Catalan: Grècia
Czech:
Řecko
Danish:
Grækenland
Dutch: Griekenland
Esperanto: Grekio
Estonian: Greeka
Finnish: Kreikka
French: Grèce
German: Griechenland
Greek:
Ελλάδα
Hebrew:
יוון
Icelandic: Grikkland
Interlingua: Grecia
Italian: Grecia
Latin: Graecia
Lithuanian: Graikija
Low German: Grekenland
Luxembourgish: Griichenland
Minnan:
Hi-lia̍p
Norwegian (Riksmal): Hellas
Polish: Grecja
Portuguese: Grècia
Romanian: Grecia
Russian:
Греция
Serbian:
Грчка
Slovenian:
Grčija
Spanish: Grecia
Swedish: Grekland
Thai:
ประเทศกร$ 37;ซ
Toki Pona: ma Elena
Tok Pisin: Gris
Ukrainian:
Греція
Welsh: Gwlad Groeg



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Posted By: Christscrusader
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 21:01
This guy knows his stuff.

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Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 22:16
Yes, the wise men of the Netherlands speak many languages

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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2004 at 03:13

It's also interesting that all "eastern" people call us "Yunan"  (Iones) because they have learned about us from the Persians, while all "western" people call us "Greek" because they have learned about us from the Romans.

Btw, the word Greek is coming from an Eboean conoly in Italy called Graea, with which the Romans came into contact first. Therefore all Hellenes were called: Graeki.



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Romano Nero
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2004 at 07:20

Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli

Arabic:ونان
Aromanian: Gârtsii
Bahasa Indonesia: Yunani
Bahasa Malayu: Yunani
Belarussian: Грэ́цыя
Breton:
A' Ghrèig
Bulgarian: Гърция
Catalan: Grècia
Czech:
Řecko
Danish:
Grækenland
Dutch: Griekenland
Esperanto: Grekio
Estonian: Greeka
Finnish: Kreikka
French: Grèce
German: Griechenland
Greek:
ÅëëÜäá
Hebrew:
יוון
Icelandic: Grikkland
Interlingua: Grecia
Italian: Grecia
Latin: Graecia
Lithuanian: Graikija
Low German: Grekenland
Luxembourgish: Griichenland
Minnan:
Hi-lia̍p
Norwegian (Riksmal): Hellas
Polish: Grecja
Portuguese: Grècia
Romanian: Grecia
Russian:
Греция
Serbian:
Грчка
Slovenian:
Grčija
Spanish: Grecia
Swedish: Grekland
Thai:
ประเทศกร$ 37;ซ
Toki Pona: ma Elena
Tok Pisin: Gris
Ukrainian:
Греція
Welsh: Gwlad Groeg

 

Actually, the etymology of the name "Greek" (Graeci in Roman) goes back to the first actual Greeks the Romans encountered. The Greeks always called themselves "Hellenes", but the Romans applied the specific name "Greek" to all those that spoke a similar language to the Graeci they encountered and thous it prevailed (seing that Latin has heavily influenced most European languages).



Posted By: AssyrianGuy7
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2004 at 09:28
In Syriac/Aramiac aka Assyrian we call Greeks Yon'aya

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"Blessed be my people, Egypt, and the work of my hands, Assyria, and my special possession, Israel!"
(Isaiah 19:23-25)


Posted By: Romano Nero
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2004 at 09:35

Most eastern languages are using the root -yon- which comes from the Persian Yunon (IIRC)  which is a paraphrase of the Greek Ionian.

So, both the easteners and the westeners are using the name of a single Greek tribe to describe all the Hellenes.



Posted By: hansioux
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2004 at 20:05

Originally posted by Christscrusader

I was sayin mostly because greeks call themselves Hellenes, but all other languages referr to them in some form of Greek. None say Hellas or Hellenes in any way. I was jsut curious.

The Han language has refered to Greece as XiLai (English spelling shounds like SiLai) as early as Han dynasty.

Now it is called XiLa.



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Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.

Lai Ho, Formosan Poet


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 10:33
Don't forget Rum, Roumaios, which is  what the Ottomans formally used to refer to all  Greek Orthodox Christians.

this has gone through a meaning shift begining with meaning the Greek Orthodox Christian areas of the Ottoman empire, and  today to specifically mean only Greeks. EG the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is called "Rum Fener" (fener coming from Phanar or lighthouse from the district it is located). Turkey today insists Rum means Greek and Greek only and make a point that the Rum mean only Greeks even if it had a broader meaning in the past. So there is a kind of politically based circumscribed meaning of the word to refelct a policy of limiting a minority insitution namely the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate whcih is actually the longest continually operating institution -- of any kind -- in all of Turkey.

So in the discussion about names you have to include rum, with Romaic being a known dialect of Kione Greek and indeed consideration at the foundign of Greece a compatative root for the official name. Greek identity writers and foreign anthroplogists and historians often spoke of the struggle between the Hellenic (mainland) and Romaic (cosmopolitan) dual identities of modern century Greece. Greek refugees from Asia Minor (1923) and the Black sea (1913) brought in a huge romaic culture including a 19th centruy commerical and maritime dominace of the eastern med.

so not only are they called Ionian i.e.yunan by Easterners encountring Greeks on the black sea and Antatolia, and Greeks by those who first encountered the Graea in Italy, and Hellene from the classical age self nomination, they are also Romoais/Rum from the Byzantine age.

if you are curious look up the definition of the language Romaic or its predicessor , the "koine." Not incidently koine and its derivative romaic became the modern Greek language called (demotic Greek or demotiki).

lastly although rumania, and romani (the gypsy language) also come from the same root in roman they are not directly related.
tamble();


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 17:34
IIRC, Roma were first known as the Doma, they were called the Roma after they endered Europe.

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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Fizzil
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 17:14

Arabic:íæäÇä

Fixed, pronounced Yunan(not Yunnan, thats chinese) which means Greece, for greek nationals its "íæäÇäí"

I think its a corruption of the english/latin(?) word "Ionian".



Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 07:31
Actually Ionian is (of course) a Greek word. One of the three major Greek tribes: Ionians, Aeolians and Dorians.

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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Infidel
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 08:32

Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli

Portuguese: Grècia

Actually, it's Grécia. Just a minor correction. The people are grego(s) and grega(s). There are also the adjective helénico and the noun Hélade, but are especially used only in academic contexts.



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An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?


Posted By: Hellinas
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2004 at 04:11
Aristotle and Apollodorus wrote about Graeci, who were the Selle or Helle a Hellinic tribe of Epirus.
We Hellines always did call ourselves by this name until the Roman empire that is.
(Thucydides tells us that, Hellines were called the people living in Hellas. According to Greek mythology we were named after Hellene.)
Then under the Roman "rule" we were called "Romans" a name that followed us untill the Byzantine empire, then we called ourselves "Romeoi"(sounds Rom-e-e) to distinguish ourselves from the rest of the Byzantines.
This remained untill our independence from
the Turks in 1829 which is when the name "Hellines" reappeared.


Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2004 at 05:12

the word Hellas or Hellines sounds better than the word Greece



Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2004 at 06:32
Originally posted by azimuth

the word Hellas or Hellines sounds better than the word Greece

I couldn't agree more, but unforstunatelly Greece is what the country is known as now and it will (probably) never change.

The Germans are even worse, they're known as Germans, Deutch, Alleman, Tedeski (sp?) etc...



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: exodussian
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2005 at 20:09
We turks
We call greece as "Yunanistan".

We call greeks as "Yunanlýlar"

Yunanistan - Ionia
Yunan - ionian <--- comes from this root.

Bre , i dont know where hellen comes from ?  hellen of troja ?



Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2005 at 20:25
No, from Hellen, the forefather of the Hellenes (Greeks).  The dame who caused all that trouble for Troy was called Helen (or just a little more accurately, Helene).  Note the single "l". 


Posted By: Capt. Lubber
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2005 at 01:28
Funny thing is, the greeks call themselves hellenes, and their country Hellás. The only other countries in the world who do that is Norway(Hellas), China(Xi La) and Viet Nam(Hy Lâp). Bit odd, seeing as the rest of Europe call tham variations of Graecia.

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Loke, Attila, the grete conqueror,
Deyde in his sleep, with shame and dishonour,
Bleedinge ay at the nose in dronkenesse,
A captayin shoulde live in sobrenesse


Posted By: Bosnjo
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2005 at 18:58
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by azimuth

the word Hellas or Hellines sounds better than the word Greece

I couldn't agree more, but unforstunatelly Greece is what the country is known as now and it will (probably) never change.

The Germans are even worse, they're known as Germans, Deutch, Alleman, Tedeski (sp?) etc...

Njemci, is the word for Germans, in many slavic languages, it means mute people.

 

But the explenation that one Tribe gave the name for all, it seems plausible to me, because the romans gave a Continent ,  the name of the first tribe they had met there, the Afris.



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I am heavely armed, entirely sick and extremly nationalistic.


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2005 at 01:08
Actually it was the Greeks who named Africa, but never mind

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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2005 at 23:38
The ancient Greek name for the African continent was "Libya".


Posted By: Reynardkid
Date Posted: 25-Feb-2005 at 12:03

Originally posted by Sharrukin

No, from Hellen, the forefather of the Hellenes (Greeks).  The dame who caused all that trouble for Troy was called Helen (or just a little more accurately, Helene).  Note the single "l". 

Hi, I'm new here. Just read the topic.

Yes, Hellenes/Hellenas/Hellens came from a person named Hellen in Greek Myth.

But that was not Hellen of Troy.

According to Greek Myth, that was Hellen I, son of Deucalion I, who in turn was the son of Prometheus the Titan. The Greeks considered themselves the descendants of Hellen I.

After the Great Flood at the end of the Third Age, only 2 human beings survived, Deucalion I and his wife, Pyrrha, who found refuge on the Parnassus mountain. After the Jupiter commanded the Flood to cease, the couple came to a temple and received an oracle "Depart from the temple with head veiled and garments unbound, and cast behind you the bones of your mother" Since the human race was created by Prometheus from Earth, so the Earth is the Mother of all (Hence Mother Earth). They casted the stones over their shoulders. The stones began to grow soft and assume shape of humans. Thus came the human race renewed.

You can refer to Thomas Buffinch's Mythology



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It makes more sense to desire what you don't have than to possess what you don't even feel for...


Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 26-Feb-2005 at 04:16
And Hellen was the father of Dorus, Aeolus, and Xuthus.  Xuthus was the father of Ion and Achaeus.  These in turn were the forefathers of the four Greek tribes; the Dorians, Aeolians, Ionians, and Achaeans.  The people which were originally stones were called Leleges.  These were said to have populated Laconia (separate legend of Lelex, first ruler of Lacedaemon), Megara, the Aegean, and southwestern Anatolia, before the Greek tribes settled in those regions.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2005 at 23:54

The use of the name 'Hellas' is a relatively new phenomena even compared to the use of name "Greece' in todays modern Greece. The original word for 'Greek' by todays modern Greeks was 'Romiosini' reflecting the multi-cultural background (Albanian, Vlach, Gypsie, Turkish etc) of the majority of the population of modern Greece.

'Romiosini' was simply the Ottoman term for a Christian in the Balkan region and the terms 'Greece' and 'Hellas' were only adopted after the creation of the modern Greek state as part of the nation building process. The adoption of the modern Greek langauge (a langauge at that stage confined mostly to eastern Orthodox Church litergy until then) and the introduction of the continuity myth (the myth of direct descent from the ancient Hellenes) were to become the most important factors in the creation of modern Greece.

So successful were the above efforts in the creation of modern Greek national identity that many modern Greeks today forget (or simply don't want to remember) that their grandparents or great grandparents were Albanians, Turks, Vlachs, Gypsies etc. The whole issue is a very controversial topic for modern Greeks, who when reminded of these facts, predictably react with anger and hostility.

 



Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2005 at 04:39

Originally posted by The Cable Guy

 many modern Greeks today forget (or simply don't want to remember) that their grandparents or great grandparents were Albanians, Turks, Vlachs, Gypsies etc.

Something tells me that you're one of the Slavomacedonians (FYROMians) that were banned some time ago!

We intend to keep the peace in this forum, so please keep in mind that continuing to post posts that are (not so cleverly) intented to provoke, will get you banned!

Alternative history is one thing, provocation is another. So if you don't have anything inteligent to post, just stay mute...

 

PS

That "Romiosini" part was soooo ignorant....

 

 

 



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2005 at 05:41

Something tells me that you're one of the Slavomacedonians (FYROMians) that were banned some time ago

Actually this is the first time I've been on this forum.

FYROMiam

Sorry to disappoint you but my parents were born in the village of Dambeni in northern Greece.

...many modern Greeks today forget (or simply don't want to remember) that their grandparents or great grandparents were Albanians, Turks, Vlachs, Gypsies etc...

Alternative history is one thing, provocation is another. So if you don't have anything inteligent to post, just stay mute

As I said before, the whole issue is a very controversial topic for modern Greeks, who when reminded of these facts, predictably react with anger and hostility...you've just proven yourself to be a perfect example of this.

As for the term 'romiosini', you may try to convince people who don't know any better, but you won't succeed with somebody from the region. Although the term may slowly be dying out, almost everybody in Greece over the age of 40 still uses it today.

 

 


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2005 at 06:41
Originally posted by The Cable Guy

Sorry to disappoint you but my parents were born in the village of Dambeni in northern Greece.[quote]

oh, ok then. And where were you born?

[QUOTE=The Cable Guy]As I said before, the whole issue is a very controversial topic for modern Greeks, [quote] what is controversial is your meaningless posting. I'm not here to prove racial purity of anyone, as this is simply impossible and in anycase I don't believe in it.

Last but not least, Romiosini derives (obviously) from Romios, which derives from the Byzantine Greek past when Greeks identified themselves as Romioi (Romans). The word Hellenas back then was tainted by the Christians as heathen, so Greeks that became Christians prefered the term Roman in contrast to those who remained believers of the 12 Gods.

 

 


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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2005 at 07:47

Originally posted by Yiannis

oh, ok then. And where were you born?

I was born in Salonica but have grown up in melbourne, Australia.

Originally posted by Yiannis

what is controversial is your meaningless posting. I'm not here to prove racial purity of anyone, as this is simply impossible and in anycase I don't believe in it

If you don't believe in such nonsense as 'racial purity', then why are you geting so upset. The fact is that modern Greece is a relatively new state created through the assimilation of a wide variety of ethnically diverse peoples under the myth of continuity (descent from the ancient Hellenes) and the adoption of the modern Greek language.  As I said before, and you yourself have proved, this topic is a very controversial issue for modern Greeks.

Originally posted by Yiannis

Romiosini derives (obviously) from Romios, which derives from the Byzantine Greek past when Greeks identified themselves as Romioi (Romans)

Sorry Yiannis, but this rubbish. Firstly, what exactly is the "Byzantine Greek past"? The Byzantine empire was nothing more then the Eastern Roman empire. The only thing 'Greek' about it was the abandonment of Latin and the adoption of Greek as the langauge of state administration and church litergy. The reason for choosing Greek was because in the eastern Mediterranean during that period, Greek was the common language of trade, diplomacy for the all the different races in that region, and not because the empire was 'Greek'. The is the reason why the various ethnic groups in the area of todays modern Greece all referred to themselves as 'Romios' during the Ottoman period and NOT 'Greek' or 'Hellene' as they had absolutey no knowledge of what ancient Greece was or who ancient Greeks were. It was not until the Philhellenism of the English and Germans and the creation of the modern Greece state that most modern Greeks learned about the history of the ancient Hellenes.

 



Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2005 at 10:24
The Greek language continued to be used in everyday life during the Byzantine Period, not just in the government and liturgy.  Discontinuity is therefore false.  While it is true that "Roman" was used for peoples of various origins, not just Greek, the core of the Eastern Roman Empire was Greek-speaking.  This became specifically clear when the northern Balkans became Slavic-speaking, the Middle East, Arabic-speaking, and Anatolia, Turkic-speaking (to put it simply, of course).


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2005 at 17:24

Hi Sharrukin,

One thing you are all forgeting is that Byzantium and Constantinople were very multi-racial places. The fact that Greek was already used in everday life (although largely confined to educated persons etc), as a common langauge of communication for all the various ethnic groups, is the main reason why Latin was abandoned.

There is a big distinction between being a 'Greek speaker' and actually being 'Greek', showing the continuity theory to be false when considering the fact the the overwhelming majority of the population of Byzantium weren't actually 'Greek'.

The point I was trying to make in my original post was that area of Greece during the formation of the modern Greek state was a very ethnically diverse place where the various ethnic groups simply referred to themselves as 'Romios' meaning Christian and not 'Greek' or 'Hellene', as they had absolutely no knowledge of Hellenic history or what an ancient Hellene actually was. The majority of the ancestors of todays modern Greeks only became aware of Hellenic history after learning about it from their English, French and German sponsors during the creation of the modern Greek state in the 1830's. The adoption of the continuity myth of direct descent from the ancient Hellenes and creation of the modern Greek langauge were to become the main factors in the formation of the modern Greek national identity. Thus terms such as 'Greek' or 'Hellene' are somewhat artifical today considering that less then 170 years ago the terms were largely unknown.



Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2005 at 03:52
One thing you are all forgeting is that Byzantium and Constantinople were very multi-racial places. The fact that Greek was already used in everday life (although largely confined to educated persons etc), as a common langauge of communication for all the various ethnic groups, is the main reason why Latin was abandoned.

There is a big distinction between being a 'Greek speaker' and actually being 'Greek', showing the continuity theory to be false when considering the fact the the overwhelming majority of the population of Byzantium weren't actually 'Greek'.

As someone has already pointed out, Byzantium/Constantinople was a Greek foundation, dating from about 660 BC (three precise foundation dates vary by 11 years around the 660 BC date).  It also needs to be pointed out that its geographic foundation cannot be viewed in isolation, since another Greek foundation at Chalcedon was founded on the other side of the Bosporus Strait, about 685 BC.  On the European side, Byzantium shared the region with Perinthus, founded by Greeks about 600 BC.  In all three sites, the impetus of colonization was from the Megarians, although the last was actually established by the Samians. 

Now, their Greek character remained intact, even when the Romans established their new capital at Byzantium.  Latin was the language of administration, but Greek remained the language of everyday life, until the reign of Heraclius, when Greek regained the status of the language of administration.  While it may be true that "Romans" were more than just Greeks, the Byzantines themselves did not forget about the significence of "Hellas".  It was the name of one of the Byzantine themes in Greece itself, encompassing in its greatest extent, the Peloponnese, Euboea, Attica, Boeotia, central Greece, and southern Thessaly.  It existed from c. 690 to 1204 when the Crusaders conquered Greece, divided it up into various kingdoms and duchies, discarding the name Hellas.  The Byzantines eventually regained a large part of their Greek possessions, (1261-2), but did not revive the name Hellas.   The Ottomans conquered Constantinople in 1453 and the last Byzantine territory in Greece, the Morea (the Peloponnese) was conquered by 1460.   

So, there was continuity, both on a linguistic level as well as geography.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 08:14
Originally posted by The Cable Guy

The use of the name 'Hellas' is a relatively new phenomena even compared to the use of name "Greece' in todays modern Greece. The original word for 'Greek' by todays modern Greeks was 'Romiosini' reflecting the multi-cultural background (Albanian, Vlach, Gypsie, Turkish etc) of the majority of the population of modern Greece.

'Romiosini' was simply the Ottoman term for a Christian in the Balkan region and the terms 'Greece' and 'Hellas' were only adopted after the creation of the modern Greek state as part of the nation building process. The adoption of the modern Greek langauge (a langauge at that stage confined mostly to eastern Orthodox Church litergy until then) and the introduction of the continuity myth (the myth of direct descent from the ancient Hellenes) were to become the most important factors in the creation of modern Greece.

So successful were the above efforts in the creation of modern Greek national identity that many modern Greeks today forget (or simply don't want to remember) that their grandparents or great grandparents were Albanians, Turks, Vlachs, Gypsies etc. The whole issue is a very controversial topic for modern Greeks, who when reminded of these facts, predictably react with anger and hostility.

 

 

As for the last, through ages the identitiy of many Greeks was changed to Turk, Albanian, Slavic, Bulgaric etc.

So in fact, with the creation of modern Greece, nothing else happened but most of the greeks that had lost their identity (you loose your identity if you don't have a state), found back their identity in the new Hellas.

In fact, it can not be denied that there is always been a continuation of history and culture of 4000 years.

 

 

 



Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 21:27

Originally posted by The Cable Guy

There is a big distinction between being a 'Greek speaker' and actually being 'Greek', showing the continuity theory to be false when considering the fact the the overwhelming majority of the population of Byzantium weren't actually 'Greek'.

I will agree with you on the fact that there is a big difference on being a Hellinic speaker and being a Hellin, but I don't recall anyone saying that the Byzantine empire was only "populated" by Hellines.
That is exactly why the Hellines had always distinguished themselves.

You mention "Rwmiosunh" (w=omega, h=hetta), but you neglect to mention the actual use of this "term".
All members of the Byzantine empire were, "named" "Rwmaioi", with one great difference, the word Hellines had became a synonym to "heathen" (see christian persecutions of the "old-faith") so the "term, "Rwmioi" was developed, to clearly distinguish the Hellinic Orthodox members of the "GENOS"= (gender, blood) while the term "Rwmaioi" was used to indicate all Orthodox christian members of the empire in general.


T The majority of the ancestors of todays modern Greeks only became aware of Hellenic history after learning about it from their English, French and German sponsors during the creation of the modern Greek state in the 1830's.The adoption of the continuity myth of direct descent from the ancient Hellenes and creation of the modern Greek langauge were to become the main factors in the formation of the modern Greek national identity. Thus terms such as 'Greek' or 'Hellene' are somewhat artifical today considering that less then 170 years ago the terms were largely unknown.


So according to you, the Hellines had no knowledge of their past.
Then why would Theodoros Kolokotronis among many others (war of independence1821), say that they must fight and even die if nessesary, for the "rocks" their ancestors left them.
Do you probably believe that the church let them forget?

We could always look up Giorgos Gemistos Plethon(13th century).
Or just take it a bit further back(approx. 5th cent). Where we will find the even today, "damnations" of Plato and the Platonic ideas as sinfull and corrupt by the Orthodox church.(on Orthodox Sunday)

During the first siege of Thessaloniki by the Turks (1383-1387), King Manuel Palaeologus, in his speech "Admonition to the people of Thessaloniki", urges the inhabitants to fight to death, fot this is what their historical tradition decrees: "because we are Romioi (= Hellines) and our country is the one of Philip and Alexander".
This means that he, as well as the inhabitants, were conscious of the historical continuity of Hellenism and of their Hellinic origin which had its roots in ancient times.

See B. Laourdas, Ο "Συμβουλευτ ;ικός πρός τούς Θεσσαλονικ είς" τού Μανουήλ Κο_ 6;νηνού [= Manuel Komnenos' speech "Admonition to the people of Thessaloniki"], Makedonika 3 (1953-55), p. 297, 21-22; Cf. also p. 291, 1.





that their grandparents or great grandparents were Albanians, Turks, Vlachs, Gypsies etc


Interesting?!?!?!? I guess.

Just one major problem here. The available data does demonstrate that any potential introgression into the Hellinic gene pool were minor and did not replace the indigenous people.

Albanians:
Origins "unknown", already being discussed in a different topic

Turks
Now this is actually good.
I assume you are reffering to the occupation of Hellas.
Where are the Mongolian/ pure Turkish features. That are not particularly dark but rather reddish-yellow and Mongol-like, with high cheekbones and a fold of skin over the eyes. that would prove such a mix?

Genetic research proves the total absence of any non-caucasian elements in the modern Hellinic gene pool, while with modern day Turks the story is quite different.

"The researchers found that interbreeding between Europeans and Asians occurred much earlier than previously thought. They also found DNA sequences similar to those in present-day Turks, supporting the idea that some of the Turkish people originated in Mongolia."
July 25, 2003

source:
http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/07_03/ancient.shtml - http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/07_03/ancient.shtm l

Actually, most modern Turks can actually say that they are partly of "Hellinic stock" than the other way around, which is why they are not predominantly Mongoloid, remember the Jannissary???


Vlachs
The Vlachoi were nothing more than Latinized Hellines.
The theory of their origins to be somewhere in C.Europe, mentions that this "migration" allegedly took place in (depends on the source) either during the 7th, 9th, 10th,12th, I've even seen a tzech source mention 17th cent.
But unfortunately for all, that attempt to claim the Vlachs as their own people that "migrated" towards Hellas, the first written evidence of the Vlach' s language we have that of the Byzantine collumnists, Theophanis is and Theophylactus (579 A.D.) while the word Vlahs (Armani) was mentioned for the first time in 976 A.D. from Kedrinos.

You see Vlahs (Armani) were not known with this name but with the word "Armani". This word derives from the "Romanus lives" and it is related to the decree of Karakala (Edictum Antonianium), 212 A.D. According to this decree, the right of the Roman citizen was passed on to all the residents of the whole Roman province.

If we were to accept that they were a foreign (non-Hellinic) people, why is there no mention of them in various Turkish or European sources, as we find the Slavs, Bulgarians and Albanians clearly being destinguished from Hellines?
See: Pouqueville (Voyage en Grece) Leak (Travels in Northern Greece), Heuzey (1858) Kouzinery (Voyages en Macedoine) Berard (Turkish domination and Hellenism), Wace- Thomson (Nomads of Balkans)



Posted By: Molossos
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 07:12

I am Aroman (Vlach) from both my parents' sides and all propagandists should know that genetically Aromans do not differ at all from their neighboring Greek speaking people. What matters the most though, is our total loyalty to the values of the Orthodox Church and Hellenism throughout the centuries. It is national conscience that classifies you to a specific nation, not your language neither your religion unless you wish they did.

And believe me, Aromans of Greece and most of Albania get offended if they are not thought of as part of the Hellenic nation.



Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 07:40
Originally posted by Molossos

I am Aroman (Vlach) from both my parents' sides and all propagandists should know that genetically Aromans do not differ at all from their neighboring Greek speaking people. What matters the most though, is our total loyalty to the values of the Orthodox Church and Hellenism throughout the centuries. It is national conscience that classifies you to a specific nation, not your language neither your religion unless you wish they did.

Let's say you are assimilated or just about being assimilated...........  



Posted By: Molossos
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 10:10

Nobody has been assimilated you know. In fact, all the public neoclassic buildings of Athens have been constructed by funds of wealthy Aromanian businessmen of the 19th century. The famous warship "Georgios Averof" was named after the tycoon who covered most of the expenses for its purchase. He was an Aroman you know, like me.

For your information, "Georgios Averof" was the main factor of the decisive defeat of the Ottoman fleet in the sea battles of Elli and Lemnos during the Balkan Wars. In case you didn't know, the villages of Syrrako and Kalarrytes in in Epirus were the first towns to revolt in northern Greece against Turkish rule in 1821. They are both Aromanian settlements by the way.

The first parliamentary prime minister of Greece (1844-1847), Ioannis Kolettis, was from Syrrako, the above mentioned town of Epirus. It sounds like a mystery to me how can assimilation occur while there was no state organization in Greece since the Ottoman conquest.

After all, even if assimilation was the method used by the Greek state to obliterate any foreign ethnic groups or languages in Greece, I think it would be much better than the genocides committed by Turks.



Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 10:53
Even though I fail to see what the Aromanian(Vlach) funds Molossos mentions prove, I do find it hard to assimilate people of your own culture and origin.
In oder for the Aromanians(Vlachs) to have been asimilated they must have been a non-Hellinic people or a culturally distinct group, something they were obviously not!!

You must have mixed up the alleged assimilation of Slavs with the Aromanians (already mentioned to have been of the Hellinic stock),but even so, neither was the Slavic element actually assimilated.
Many Byzantine sources mention military expeditions against the Slavs in the Hellinic area, which started from the mid-7th c and resulted in the gradual reestablishment of Byzantine authority.

Other souces, See :

Maria Nystazopoulou - Pelekidou, "Les Slaves dans l' Empire Byzantin", The 17th International Byzantine Congress. Major Papers (Washington D.C., August 3-8, 1986) New York 1986, pp. 345-367, with the bibliography and the quotation of the sources; for the policy of Byzantium, see p. 355.

Mention that, not only did the Byzantium attempt to subjugate the new settlers but also forcibly transfered Slavic populations to Anatolia in order to achieve 2 things. 1) Slavic element in the Hellenic area was arithmetically weakened, in an attempt to keep the Hellinic population "pure" and
2) assimilation was facilitated in Anatolia, since Slavs who were transferred to Anatolia found themselves among a flourishing and numerous Hellinic population.

This demographic measure was even applied vice-versa, that is, Hellinic populations from Anatolia were transplanted into Slavic populations ("epi tas Sklabinias") in order to reinforce the Hellinic element in these areas. Thus we learn, for example, that emperor Nicephorus (802-811) established in the northern Hellinic area populations which he transferred from all administrative districts ("ek pantos thematos") of Anatolia.

So we find that throughout history, Hellas had always distinguished itself from non-Hellinic elements, while the above proves the opposite for the Turks.





Posted By: Molossos
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 10:59
My point was that without Aromans there would be only the Acropolis in Athens. No National Technical University of Athens (Metsovio), no Archaeological Museum, no Zappio, to mention few among several. 


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 11:36
Without any attempt to degrade the large contribution of the Aromans to Hellas, your comment is a bit far streched. You seem to forget that you are a Hellin first and then part of your "tribe" named Aroman, Moglonites, Maurovlachoi, Grammoutsianoi, Sarmaniotes, Koutsovlachoi............... or any other name. So actually Athens has these institutions thanks to the contribution of the Hellines. Unless you consider yourself of some foreign origin that was allegedly assimilated as Alparslan mentioned?
Anyway, Hellas is much more than Athens alone.


Posted By: Molossos
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 11:51

Are you out of your mind adelfe? What part of my post seems so suspicious to you? After all, I am proud I am an Aroman and I know better than anyone else that I am a Hellen first. You didn't have to remind me of that since I don't seem lost regarding my nationality, do I?

You probably missed one of my previous post: "I am Aroman (Vlach) from both my parents' sides and all propagandists should know that genetically Aromans do not differ at all from their neighboring Greek speaking people. What matters the most though, is our total loyalty to the values of the Orthodox Church and Hellenism throughout the centuries. It is national conscience that classifies you to a specific nation, not your language neither your religion unless you wish they did."

Your reply should better be addressed to the Turk who thought he was ironic. No matter what all people think, the contribution of Aromans to the formation of the modern Hellenic state has been invaluable.



Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 12:11
I wouldn't actually use the "term" suspicius. I just find it interesting that you find more pride in declaring your Aromanian origin than your Hellinic. I might be wrong but you seem to separate these people when they are one and the same.
As I said, I might be wrong!! but the "neighboring Greek speaking people" term you used, kinda hit me, other than that I have no objection to what you've posted.

(Prwta kai panw ap'ola Ellhnas, meta Blaxos, Maniaths........)


Posted By: Molossos
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 12:43
The term was used in order to prove that no matter what the language of Aromans is, they are autochthonous people of Greece and they don't differ at all from the people who have preserved Greek as their mother tongue. After all, it was cable guy who falsely mentioned that Greeks of Vlach origin forget their grandfathers (he also got poetic ). He motivated me to remind him that not only we are proud to be Aromans, but that our pure Hellenic origin makes even prouder as well.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2005 at 00:01
hey look, the Norwegians got it right. Go Norway!


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2005 at 00:28
Aristotle and Apollodorus wrote about Graeci, who were the Selle or Helle a Hellinic tribe of Epirus.

In time I will have to check out these sources. I know the Greeks were mentioned in the Old Testement but were they called Hellenes?
I wonder what the ancient Hebrews called them?????


Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 23:05
Not really familiar to Hebrew but I know that the Hellinic translation of O.Testament Zechariyah chap. 9. 13 mentions the sons of Hellas but while searching for it online, I found that the english translated text uses the name "Javan".
Don't know what to make of it.





Posted By: Capt. Lubber
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 00:34
Originally posted by Sargon_Metis

hey look, the Norwegians got it right. Go Norway!


we are good at getting stuff right sometimes..

-------------
Loke, Attila, the grete conqueror,
Deyde in his sleep, with shame and dishonour,
Bleedinge ay at the nose in dronkenesse,
A captayin shoulde live in sobrenesse


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 03:01

Originally posted by Phallanx

  , I found that the english translated text uses the name "Javan".
Don't know what to make of it.

 

Javan = Iones (Ionians)



-------------
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Homer MakeDonski
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 18:16

Originally posted by Christscrusader

I was wondering, since Greeks call there land Hellas, why is it everyone else calls it Greece? Where did that come from?

Dear sir

This  is what some of Macedonian historical view on the matter of your question

why .May you'll agree ,may not ,but still it's nice stuff for at least reading only

regards

From the little book of BIG Greek lies>>

>

BIG Greek Lie # 1>>

>

“Modern Greeks are direct descendents of the Ancient Greeks”>>

>

(The greatest victims of Greek lies are the Greeks themselves)>>

>

By Risto Stefov

>

[NOTE: Our apologies to the Greek people if they find these articles offensive. Our objective here is NOT to create tension between the Macedonian and Greek people but rather to highlight the problem that exists within the lace>lacename>Greeklacename> lacetype>Statelacetype>lace> and its institutions. As long as the lace>lacename>Greeklacename> lacetype>Statelacetype>lace> denies our existence as Macedonians with rights and privileges, we will continue to publish these types of articles.] >>

>

How can a region in the Balkans where modern Greece is located today, which has been open to a multitude of invasions, conquests and settlements, remain homogeneous and untouched for two thousand seven hundred years?>>

>

Ironically, as the Greeks claim, how can modern lace>Macedonialace>, a region neighbouring modern lace>Greecelace> be so heterogeneous that it has completely lost its original identity? >>

>

These are questions that every Greek should be asking!>>

>

Ever since Philip II of lace>Macedonialace> conquered the ancient City States at the conclusion of the battle of lace>Chaeronealace> in 338 BC, the region south of lace>Olympuslace> has been without borders and open to all kinds of invasions and barbarian settlements.  >>

>

THE BIG GREEK LIE: “Modern Greeks are direct descendents of the ancient Greeks”>>

>

There were no “Ancient Greeks” since the word “Greek” was not coined until after the Roman conquests, approximately 600 years after the establishment of the lace>lacetype>Citylacetype> lacetype>Stateslacetype>lace> and approximately 150 years after they were conquered by the Macedonians.>>

>

It is also well known that the ancient City States were never united politically and never established themselves as a single state.  In fact they existed politically independent from one another and fought each other for economic dominance of the region.>>

>

The name “lace>Greecelace>” was imposed on the lace>lacename>modern Greeklacename> lacetype>Kingdomlacetype>lace> by the Great Powers Britain, lace>Francelace> and lace>Russialace>. Modern Greeks call themselves Hellenes (Ellines) and their state lace>Hellaslace> (Ellas).>>

>

By using the name “Greek” to refer to both the ancient and modern people, the Greek state falsely implies descent for the modern Greeks from the ancients. >>

>

By using the name “lace>Greecelace>” to refer to both the ancient and modern states, the lace>lacename>Greeklacename> lacetype>Statelacetype>lace> is falsely implying;>>

>

(1) continuity between the ancient lace>lacetype>Citylacetype> lacetype>Stateslacetype>lace> and modern lace>Greecelace>, and >>

>

(2) that there was some sort of political unity between the ancient City States themselves where one did not exist.. >>

>

In reality the words “lace>Greecelace>” and “Greek” were popularized by modern 19th century writers. There are no ancient maps or references with the words “lace>Greecelace>”.>>

>

The Romans may have made some references to the ancient people living in tate>lace>Sicilylace>tate> as “Grecos” but they referred to the region south of lace>Olympuslace> as Achaia.>>

>

During the Ottoman era the people living south of lace>Olympuslace> called themselves Romeos (Romans).>>

>

lace>Greecelace> is a newly created state which never existed before the 19th century. The lace>lacetype>Kingdomlacetype> of lacename>Greecelacename>lace>, occupying the region of Morea, present day lace>Peloponnesuslace>, was created for the first time in 1829. Between 1829 and 1912 the Greeks enlarged their territory to present day lace>Greecelace>, by conquering lace>Epiruslace>, lace>Thessalylace> and 51% of lace>Macedonialace>.>>

>

At its inception lace>Greecelace> stated out with a small population of less than one million people, most of whom were Albanians, Slavs and Vlahs with a small minority of other ethnicities. By the time lace>Greecelace> conquered lace>Epiruslace> and lace>Thessalylace>, its population grew to three times its original size. In 1907 it registered a population of 2,600,000.  After it conquered lace>Macedonialace> and exchanged populations with lace>Turkeylace>, its population tripled. In 1928 lace>Greecelace> registered 6,200,000 people. 1,100,000 of them were Christians, refugees from lace>Asia Minorlace>.>>

>

After the Treaty of Lausanne in July 1923, and after the population exchanges with lace>Turkeylace>, lace>Greecelace> declared itself homogenous consisting of 100% pure Greeks with a very small Muslim but ethnically Greek population.>>

>

It is estimated that after lace>Macedonialace> was conquered, occupied and had some of its population evicted, more than one million Macedonians still remained and were included among the Greeks. >>

>

According to lace>Greecelace> however, there were no non-Greeks left in lace>Macedonialace> after its population exchanges. Also, according to lace>Greecelace>, the ancient Macedonians were extinct, killed off by the Slavs around the 6th century AD during the so-called Slav invasions. >>

>

So the question that begs to be asked here is, “What nationality were these million or so people who remained in lace>Macedonialace> and became part of lace>Greecelace>?”   Many Greeks would argue that they were Bulgarians!>>

>

If that were the case, then how can the modern Greeks claim purity and homogeneity if at least 16% of its population in 1928 was non-Greek? What about its Vlah, Slav, Albanian and Turkish elements? Clearly they are not Greeks, let alone being direct descendents of the ancient Greeks?>>

>

Even this small argument shows that there is something “fishy” about these Greek claims.>>

>

For over a century and a half lace>lacename>Greeklacename> lacetype>Statelacetype>lace> institutions, organizations and individuals have been making unproven and unfounded allegations that the modern Greeks are direct descendents of the ancients. To this day they have shown no evidence to prove their claims. In fact the opposite is true. There is ample evidence that proves that this particular modern Greek claim is an outright BIG Greek lie.>>

>

This exact issue was tackled by Historian John Shea in chapter 4 of The Great Ethnic Mix of Greece, pages 77 to 96, in his book “lace>Macedonialace> and lace>Greecelace>, The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation”.  Among other things, John Shea proves that even the ancient people were not homogeneous. >>

>

“It has been estimated that in classical times the number of slaves in lace>Atticalace> was roughly equal to the number of free inhabitants, or around 100,000. In lace>Spartalace> there was an even greater proportion of slaves, and most of them, the helots, were Messenians. While the slaves of lace>Athenslace> were a wide racial mix and therefore less likely to unite on the basis of a common language, these Messenian helots of lace>Spartalace> all spoke Greek, and had a kind of group self-consciousness. Thus they presented ‘special problems of security for their Spartan masters, whose numbers were constantly on the decline.’ Changes in the ethnic composition of Greek city-states are illustrated by the comments about the case of Piso. Piso, who had been the recipient of an unhelpful decision by a vote of the Athenian city assembly, ‘made a violent speech in which he said that the latter-day Athenians had no right to identify themselves with the great Athenians of the days of Pericles, Demosthenes, Aeschylus, and Plato. The ancient Athenians had been extirpated by repeated wars and massacres and these were mere mongrels, degenerates, and the descendants of slaves. He said that any Roman who flattered them as if they were the legitimate heirs of those ancient heroes was lowering the dignity of the Roman name.’   Such historical ideas make it clear that even two thousand years ago the notion of ethnic purity amongst the Greeks was difficult to sustain. The ethnic mix continued over the next two thousand years. As Nicol has observed, ‘The ancient Greeks were, after all, of very mixed ancestry; and there can be no doubt that the Byzantine Greeks, both before and after the Slav occupation, were even more heterogenous’.” (Pages 83 and 84, John Shea, lace>Macedonialace> and lace>Greecelace>, The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation)>>

>

And there you have it!>>

>

THE TRUTH: The modern Greeks are not only NOT direct descendents of the ancients, but their Greekness is a myth, a modern 19th century creation.>>



Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 18:52
SIr, WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THTA QUESTION?! He wanted to know about the NAME, not about if Greeks were related to the ancients. Prehaps he should post one back ABOUT the Bulgarian/serbian mixing which resulted in Present Day FYROMians

-------------
http://theforgotten.org/intro.html


Posted By: Homer MakeDonski
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 23:27

dear strategos

If anyone would like to read more that a tittle of previous post could find out what are you pointing as well :

-There were no “Ancient Greeks” since the word “Greek” was not coined until after the Roman conquests, approximately 600 years after the establishment of the City States and approximately 150 years after they were conquered by the Macedonians.

-The name “Greece” was imposed on the modern Greek Kingdom by the Great Powers Britain, France and Russia.

 

-By using the name “Greek” to refer to both the ancient and modern people, the Greek state falsely implies descent for the modern Greeks from the ancients.

-By using the name “Greece” to refer to both the ancient and modern states, the Greek State is falsely implying;

(1) continuity between the ancient City States and modern Greece, and

(2) that there was some sort of political unity between the ancient City States themselves where one did not exist.. >>

-In reality the words “Greece” and “Greek” were popularized by modern 19th century writers. There are no ancient maps or references with the words “Greece”. >>

-The Romans may have made some references to the ancient people living in Sicily as “Grecos” but they referred to the region south of Olympus as Achaia.

During the Ottoman era the people living south of Olympus called themselves Romeos (Romans). >>

-Greece is a newly created state which never existed before the 19th century. The Kingdom of Greece, occupying the region of Morea, present day Peloponnesus, was created for the first time in 1829.



Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 00:32



-------------
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.


Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 05:55
Originally posted by Homer MakeDonski

Originally posted by Christscrusader

I was wondering, since Greeks call there land Hellas, why is it everyone else calls it Greece? Where did that come from?

Dear sir

This  is what some of Macedonian historical view on the matter of your question

why .May you'll agree ,may not ,but still it's nice stuff for at least reading only

regards

From the little book of BIG Greek lies>>

>

BIG Greek Lie # 1>>

>

“Modern Greeks are direct descendents of the Ancient Greeks”>>

>

(The greatest victims of Greek lies are the Greeks themselves)>>

>

By Risto Stefov

>

[NOTE: Our apologies to the Greek people if they find these articles offensive. Our objective here is NOT to create tension between the Macedonian and Greek people but rather to highlight the problem that exists within the lace>lacename>Greeklacename> lacetype>Statelacetype>lace> and its institutions. As long as the lace>lacename>Greeklacename> lacetype>Statelacetype>lace> denies our existence as Macedonians with rights and privileges, we will continue to publish these types of articles.] >>

>

How can a region in the Balkans where modern Greece is located today, which has been open to a multitude of invasions, conquests and settlements, remain homogeneous and untouched for two thousand seven hundred years?>>

>

Ironically, as the Greeks claim, how can modern lace>Macedonialace>, a region neighbouring modern lace>Greecelace> be so heterogeneous that it has completely lost its original identity? >>

>

These are questions that every Greek should be asking!>>

>

Ever since Philip II of lace>Macedonialace> conquered the ancient City States at the conclusion of the battle of lace>Chaeronealace> in 338 BC, the region south of lace>Olympuslace> has been without borders and open to all kinds of invasions and barbarian settlements.  >>

>

THE BIG GREEK LIE: “Modern Greeks are direct descendents of the ancient Greeks”>>

>

There were no “Ancient Greeks” since the word “Greek” was not coined until after the Roman conquests, approximately 600 years after the establishment of the lace>lacetype>Citylacetype> lacetype>Stateslacetype>lace> and approximately 150 years after they were conquered by the Macedonians.>>

>

It is also well known that the ancient City States were never united politically and never established themselves as a single state.  In fact they existed politically independent from one another and fought each other for economic dominance of the region.>>

>

The name “lace>Greecelace>” was imposed on the lace>lacename>modern Greeklacename> lacetype>Kingdomlacetype>lace> by the Great Powers Britain, lace>Francelace> and lace>Russialace>. Modern Greeks call themselves Hellenes (Ellines) and their state lace>Hellaslace> (Ellas).>>

>

By using the name “Greek” to refer to both the ancient and modern people, the Greek state falsely implies descent for the modern Greeks from the ancients. >>

>

By using the name “lace>Greecelace>” to refer to both the ancient and modern states, the lace>lacename>Greeklacename> lacetype>Statelacetype>lace> is falsely implying;>>

>

(1) continuity between the ancient lace>lacetype>Citylacetype> lacetype>Stateslacetype>lace> and modern lace>Greecelace>, and >>

>

(2) that there was some sort of political unity between the ancient City States themselves where one did not exist.. >>

>

In reality the words “lace>Greecelace>” and “Greek” were popularized by modern 19th century writers. There are no ancient maps or references with the words “lace>Greecelace>”.>>

>

The Romans may have made some references to the ancient people living in tate>lace>Sicilylace>tate> as “Grecos” but they referred to the region south of lace>Olympuslace> as Achaia.>>

>

During the Ottoman era the people living south of lace>Olympuslace> called themselves Romeos (Romans).>>

>

lace>Greecelace> is a newly created state which never existed before the 19th century. The lace>lacetype>Kingdomlacetype> of lacename>Greecelacename>lace>, occupying the region of Morea, present day lace>Peloponnesuslace>, was created for the first time in 1829. Between 1829 and 1912 the Greeks enlarged their territory to present day lace>Greecelace>, by conquering lace>Epiruslace>, lace>Thessalylace> and 51% of lace>Macedonialace>.>>

>

At its inception lace>Greecelace> stated out with a small population of less than one million people, most of whom were Albanians, Slavs and Vlahs with a small minority of other ethnicities. By the time lace>Greecelace> conquered lace>Epiruslace> and lace>Thessalylace>, its population grew to three times its original size. In 1907 it registered a population of 2,600,000.  After it conquered lace>Macedonialace> and exchanged populations with lace>Turkeylace>, its population tripled. In 1928 lace>Greecelace> registered 6,200,000 people. 1,100,000 of them were Christians, refugees from lace>Asia Minorlace>.>>

>

After the Treaty of Lausanne in July 1923, and after the population exchanges with lace>Turkeylace>, lace>Greecelace> declared itself homogenous consisting of 100% pure Greeks with a very small Muslim but ethnically Greek population.>>

>

It is estimated that after lace>Macedonialace> was conquered, occupied and had some of its population evicted, more than one million Macedonians still remained and were included among the Greeks. >>

>

According to lace>Greecelace> however, there were no non-Greeks left in lace>Macedonialace> after its population exchanges. Also, according to lace>Greecelace>, the ancient Macedonians were extinct, killed off by the Slavs around the 6th century AD during the so-called Slav invasions. >>

>

So the question that begs to be asked here is, “What nationality were these million or so people who remained in lace>Macedonialace> and became part of lace>Greecelace>?”   Many Greeks would argue that they were Bulgarians!>>

>

If that were the case, then how can the modern Greeks claim purity and homogeneity if at least 16% of its population in 1928 was non-Greek? What about its Vlah, Slav, Albanian and Turkish elements? Clearly they are not Greeks, let alone being direct descendents of the ancient Greeks?>>

>

Even this small argument shows that there is something “fishy” about these Greek claims.>>

>

For over a century and a half lace>lacename>Greeklacename> lacetype>Statelacetype>lace> institutions, organizations and individuals have been making unproven and unfounded allegations that the modern Greeks are direct descendents of the ancients. To this day they have shown no evidence to prove their claims. In fact the opposite is true. There is ample evidence that proves that this particular modern Greek claim is an outright BIG Greek lie.>>

>

This exact issue was tackled by Historian John Shea in chapter 4 of The Great Ethnic Mix of Greece, pages 77 to 96, in his book “lace>Macedonialace> and lace>Greecelace>, The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation”.  Among other things, John Shea proves that even the ancient people were not homogeneous. >>

>

“It has been estimated that in classical times the number of slaves in lace>Atticalace> was roughly equal to the number of free inhabitants, or around 100,000. In lace>Spartalace> there was an even greater proportion of slaves, and most of them, the helots, were Messenians. While the slaves of lace>Athenslace> were a wide racial mix and therefore less likely to unite on the basis of a common language, these Messenian helots of lace>Spartalace> all spoke Greek, and had a kind of group self-consciousness. Thus they presented ‘special problems of security for their Spartan masters, whose numbers were constantly on the decline.’ Changes in the ethnic composition of Greek city-states are illustrated by the comments about the case of Piso. Piso, who had been the recipient of an unhelpful decision by a vote of the Athenian city assembly, ‘made a violent speech in which he said that the latter-day Athenians had no right to identify themselves with the great Athenians of the days of Pericles, Demosthenes, Aeschylus, and Plato. The ancient Athenians had been extirpated by repeated wars and massacres and these were mere mongrels, degenerates, and the descendants of slaves. He said that any Roman who flattered them as if they were the legitimate heirs of those ancient heroes was lowering the dignity of the Roman name.’   Such historical ideas make it clear that even two thousand years ago the notion of ethnic purity amongst the Greeks was difficult to sustain. The ethnic mix continued over the next two thousand years. As Nicol has observed, ‘The ancient Greeks were, after all, of very mixed ancestry; and there can be no doubt that the Byzantine Greeks, both before and after the Slav occupation, were even more heterogenous’.” (Pages 83 and 84, John Shea, lace>Macedonialace> and lace>Greecelace>, The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation)>>

>

And there you have it!>>

>

THE TRUTH: The modern Greeks are not only NOT direct descendents of the ancients, but their Greekness is a myth, a modern 19th century creation.>>

Another copy/paste from our friend homer_makedonski from the propagandistic site http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov55.html - http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/stefov55.html

And you were telling me "propaganda is not your philosophy"???? your actions maybe???



Posted By: iskenderani
Date Posted: 07-May-2005 at 02:39

I always wonder why some people are so negative in understanding basic science and replace it with basic propaganda. I have come down to the result that these people are not able to understand science and find more easy to digest epty propaganda words....

But science , cannot be stopped and cannot be denied ....it is always present .....and it is absolute , up to the point when other scientific data are proven otherwise..

So , lets see what science and scientists have to say :

===================================================

THE ORIGIN OF THE GREEKS BY ARIS N. POULIANOS

(1961, 1964, 1968, 1988)

(The book is sold out, but soon will be republished).

Four successive editions, constantly enriched with new data, are edited concerning the Anthropological - Ethnogenetic study of the Greek population. The basis of this work is Aris N. Poulianos dissertation, which took place in the University of Moscow, under the supervision of the famous professor of Anthropology F. G. Debetz. The research was based on the study of 70 human characteristics (p. ex. body height, width of face, skin colour, shape of eyes etc.) of about 3000 Greek emigrants (after 1949 civil war) in the f. Soviet Union from different Hellenic areas. The statistical elaboration of these characteristics in combination with their geographical distribution demonstrated mathematically (because of their low dispersion) the incessant biological continuity of the Greeks all through the historic and prehistoric epochs, which refer at least to the Mesolithic and Upper Palaeolithic periods (15.000-30.000 years). This historical continuity is also proved by the comparison of measurements of the contemporary inhabitants with those of the ancient skulls of Greece, which statistically show no differences. Despite the occasional influences and limited migrations of populations, the anthropological research has shown that the population of Greece is basically native and that the contemporary Greeks are descendants of the ancient peoples who resided in the Greek peninsula. The same study indicated that the Albanian-speaking, Slav-speaking (Monte Negro included) as well as Valaches (Vlachi) of the greater Macedonian region are in their majority also autochthonous and therefore the influences from abroad mainly concerns the adoption of the chronologically younger languages, which are in use today.

The interest of the Press concerning the "Origin of the Greeks" is indicatively quoted in the following publications:

Avgi, 6-1-1962: “Over 150 scientists of the University and the Academy of Moscow have fully agreed with the scientific views of Mr. Aris. Poulianos, underlining the seriousness of the research, and without sparing their expressions, they spoke with praising words about him. Dr S. A. Tocarev, professor of ethnography in the University of Moscow and head of the Department of Ethnography regarding the peoples of Europe at the Institute of Ethnography of the Moscow Academy of Sciences, stated the following:

Aris Poulianos work presents an exceptional interest for the ethnographic science. The huge anthropological material of Greeks, which is concentrated and statistically elaborated, introduces for the first time new scientific sources for the study of a problem of basic importance, as is the problem of the origin of the Greek people. So far, concerning same issue it was generally accepted in science that contemporary Greeks historically have very few common elements with the ancient Greeks founders of the ancient civilization, and that contemporary Greeks in their greatest part represent descendants of Slavs, Albanians and other peoples who migrated in Greece and blended with the Greeks of the Byzantine era. Contrary, the writer of the present study, convincingly and based on analogous material, showed that whatever the influence of Slavs and other peoples who came in contact with the Greeks was, the people of modern Greece is basically descendant of the ancient population of the Balkans and the Aegean islands.

To be continued..



Posted By: iskenderani
Date Posted: 07-May-2005 at 02:41

The worldwide famous anthropologist of Moscow University Dr I. I. Roginski notes that in the southern part of the Balkans a wide border between the Dinaric and the front Asian anthropological types is located. Therefore, in this area some of the general problems of the classification of the European and front Asian populations may be ascertained. It must be also noted that by this work, the critique of the racist fabrications, regarding the genesis of the ancient Greek civilization, is found. “(Note: meaning the racist theories supporting that contemporary Greeks are not descendents from the ancient and this is the reason why their civilization today falls short compared to that of the developed countries. On the contrary, besides the groundless comparison – if for instance the traditions would be taken into account – the scientific verification regarding the biological continuity of Greeks once more proves that the socio-historical and geographical conditions are the main factors ruling the people’s cultural level.)”.

“The director of the Anthropological department of the Academy Ethnographic Institute in Moscow, Dr M. G. Levin added: ...It may seem paradox that many European peoples have been studied less than the peoples from Australia, Melanesia and other remote countries, Greece being one of the lesser examined ...A. N. Poulianos work completes this missing knowledge. The writer is fully aware of the methodology of the anthropological researches, has strictly kept all the necessary terms and paid suitable attention.
The director of the Anthropological Institute and Moscow Anthropological Museum Dr B. P. Yiakimov stated: " My own view is that Mr A. N. Poulianos work represents the most perfect recapitulation regarding the Anthropology of Greeks."

From the other side of Atlantic, in USA, the director of the Smithsonian Institute, G.L. Angel, in a book review of “The origins of the Greeks” at the American Journal of Physical Anthropology (No 22, v. 5, 1964, p. 343) writes: Aris Poulianos… correctly verifies that there is a full genetic continuity from ancient to contemporary times.

In the newspaper "NEA" of 25-1-1962, it is mentioned that: “The scientific study of A. N. Poulianos refutes the dogmatic theory of the Greek hater, German historian Fallmerayer, who lived from 1790 to 1861, the time of the Greek fight for independence. Him (Fallmerayer) altogether dogmatically, that is without prior anthropological research - and therefore self-evidently anti-scientifically - tried to support the theory that Greeks are mainly Slavs. The researcher (A. Poulianos) ends by mentioning that the anthropological study, with the necessary historical and linguistic data, is necessary for the solution of ethnogenetic problems.

The present is the reflection of the past and in this lays its historical value. If the past helps us understand the present, the present helps us meditate on the future.

To be continued ..



Posted By: iskenderani
Date Posted: 07-May-2005 at 02:42

CRETANS – AEGEANS – PELOPONNESIANS – SARAKATSANI

Thereinafter Aris Poulianos studied other 10.000 individuals and hundreds of skeletal remains from various Eurasian sites. The Greek groups, which were less represented in his PhD thesis (Aegeans, Peloponnesians, Pindos mountains), were finally studied after his return to Greece in 1965.

THE ORIGINS OF THE CRETANS AND AEGEANS

The basic conclusion (A. Poulianos 1971,1999) is that the contemporary population of Crete (based on a sample of 3.000 individuals) and the Aegean sea as a whole including the hinterland of Thrace and Asia Minor remained unaltered at least since the Minoan era and belongs to the aegean indigenous anthropological type. The migrations, which occurred during several historical periods, resulted in some light variations, but did not change the morphology of the original type. The influences do not exceed more than 1-3 % and this homogeneity betrays once again that the dwellers of the Aegean basin in general are locally born, at least since the Mesolithic epoch, that is 15.000 years BP (before present).

In 1987, the Italian Professor of Anthropology G. Facini during the 2nd World Congress of Palaeoanthropology in Torino, announced the existence of a 50.000 years human skeleton from Crete, with a morphology similar to the contemporary Homo sapiens sapiens and not that of the Neanderthal man. The announcement never reached the Greek Media, once the “Hellenic” Ministry for Culture stayed, as it was expected, indifferent!

In January of 1999, the medical magazine Tissue Antigens (vol.53) published an article based on blood studies, regarding the origin of Cretans. The final conclusion of this article is that the today inhabitants of Crete have a greater kinship to the … Berbers, to the … Semites and even to the … Japanese than to the Greeks (who, as they allege, arrived … 4.000 years ago in Greece!). In this way the origin of Cretans is transferred to …Africa or to the Middle East 10.000 years ago. Seven professors from Spain and three from Greece sign the article and unfortunately they reached the above conclusion following a route of low scientific standards, since they were based on a sample of only 135 individuals only the HLA gene is studied. They also little respected deontology, because ignoring the previous and more accurate anthropological bibliography, since the phenotype is represented by thousands of genes. Along this slippery way, also the work of A. Mourant et al: “The distribution of human blood groups and other polymorphisms”, University of Oxford, 1976, pp 1055, is missing from their bibliography. In this edition it is referred that the HLA gene is an unreliable basis to exact conclusions on such matters, since it makes the inhabitants of Basque, Iceland and Congo to have … bonds of kinship. It may be noted that views of this kind appeared since 1965, i.e. in a time when studies of molecular biology based on human DNA were not yet started, curiously coordinated toward the same direction (for example see the opposing Athens newspaper Athinaiki, 15/4/1966 : “Cretans … do not derive from Phoenicians and Semites.”).

As for their historical, linguistic and archaeological arguments the situation is no better. For example they make the hypothesis that when 10.000 years ago Sahara became a desert, perhaps the Berbers migrated … to Crete creating the Minoan civilization. In other words, instead of trying to find a way to survive they constructed … ships, and went to … Crete! Did not the authors really wonder about the probability that Cretans, rulers of the high seas at the time, traveled the opposite way, as many ancient sources refer? Moreover, the Sahara’s succulent sojourn faced an abrupt end about 5.500 years ago.”(see Sara Simpson, Scientific American Oct.1999, p.19) and naturally not 10.000 ago when the last fluvial climatic conditions (cataclysm) occurred.

However, this hematological work may be considered as just a hoax and not as related to analogous to Cyprus situations. It is only sad, in the verge of the 3rd millennium, to see scientific journals publishing uncritically such “essays”.

THE PELOPONNESIAN POPULATION (1977/

Th. Pitsios conducted the anthropological research regarding the Peloponnesian population, under the guidance of Dr A. Poulianos, preliminary announced in "Anthropos" (1977, v. 4, p. 5-36). It has verified the basic conclusions of “The origin of the Greeks”, completing the anthropometrical data with 1582 individuals. In 1978 it was published in a separate edition of the Anthropological Association of Greece (book No 2), dedicated with love to his master.

Isk.



Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 09-May-2005 at 23:50

Not really familiar to Hebrew but I know that the Hellinic translation of O.Testament Zechariyah chap. 9. 13 mentions the sons of Hellas but while searching for it online, I found that the english translated text uses the name "Javan".
Don't know what to make of it.

Yiannis is correct that "Javan" meant "Ionians", at least originally, but was extended to include all Greeks.  It was taken from more archaic Greek form Iavones, thus the form Yavan which was known among the Hebrews, Phoenicians, and Aramaeans.  This points to an Archaic period familiarity amongst the peoples involved.  The Aramaic word actually made it to India, where the Greeks were known as Yavanas.  The Persian form Yauna derives from the later Greek form Iones, at the time of the conquest of Lydia (c. 547 BC).  Its kind of ironic that the Persian form also made it to India, where Greeks were also known as Yonas



Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 20-May-2005 at 21:29

The Hellenes were first called "Ãñáéêïß" ("Graeki" with the letter "G" pronounced "Y" as in "Yard") by the Illirians (present day Italians), when the former arrived in Italy from ancient Dodoni (city in Epirus, Greece) as colonists. According to another source, these colonists named Ãñáßïé or Ãñáßêïé ("Graii" or "Graeci"), came to Italy from Ãñáßá ("Graia"), an ancient town in Viotia, Greece (maybe contemporary Tanagra) and founded a new Hellenic Colony there with the name Nea Polis (which means New City, later to become known as Napoli, or Naples in English). This was the very first time that the Latins came close to the Hellenes (Greeks) and thus named them all "Graeci" after the citizens of Graia; and given that most modern European languages originate from Latin, the word "Graecus" became the root for all other respective names for ¸ëëçíáò and ÅëëÜò (ÅëëÜäá) ("Hellen" and "Hellas" or "Hellada"), e.g. Greek-Greece, Grec-Grèce, Grieche-Griechenland. Maybe the name "Hellenes" came from a greek tribe which lived near Dodoni and was called (S)Elli and this name was spread as Dodoni was one of the main ancient greek religion centers.

Later on, during the first Christian centuries, the word " ¸ëëçíåò" (Hellenes) became a synonym to "heathen", in order to distinguish the followers of old faith from those of the new -official- religion, and along with Ñùìéïß ("Romii", originating from "Romans") and Åëëáäéêïß (=of Greece), the name Ãñáéêïß (Graeki) stayed in use until the foundation of the new Hellenic state in 1832AC. From that time on, the ancient terms Hellas and Hellines are used primarily in the interior of this small peninsula in South-East Europe to identify the country and its inhabitants, while the ones originating from Graeci remain in the vocabularies of the European languages.



Posted By: Menippos
Date Posted: 25-May-2005 at 08:01
Originally posted by Capt. Lubber

Originally posted by Sargon_Metis

hey look, the Norwegians got it right. Go Norway!


we are good at getting stuff right sometimes..


And that Eurovision song... (I am joking)
Actually I have a high place in my heart for Norwegians.
They are the silent "always-there" people who only speak when they have something of essence to say. And that is a virtue!


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CARRY NOTHING


Posted By: Patroclos
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 16:04

;laksdjf;lakfj;lakfja;lkfj



Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 19:56
For example they make the hypothesis that when 10.000 years ago Sahara became a desert, perhaps the Berbers migrated … to Crete creating the Minoan civilization. In other words, instead of trying to find a way to survive they constructed … ships, and went to … Crete! Did not the authors really wonder about the probability that Cretans, rulers of the high seas at the time, traveled the opposite way, as many ancient sources refer?


I don't know much about Cretan anthropology but Berbers seem to be direct descendants from Paleolithic populations of the area (Gafsa culture). At that time Crete and the Greek islands were deserted and mainland Greece doesn't seem to have been either a very densely populated region.

The date of 10,000 years ago is obviously a gross oversimplification as the Sahara didn't became a desert till much later, when agriculture was already extended through all the Mediterranean basin.
 
I'm not trying to defend anything but Neolithic North Africa is still pretty much unknown and therefore hides some potential in explaning the expansion of Meditearranean Neolithic and related cultures. For instance, in Southern Spain there is an unconnected early culture dating from the very beginnings of European Neolithic in the 6th milennium... while nothing is proven about its origins some North African connection can't be discarded either considering the limited ammout of info we have about North African Neolithic.

Is all this about Y-chromosome haplogroups or what?


-------------

NO GOD, NO MASTER!



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