Current Affairs: Should turkey be allowed into the EU?

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Should turkey be allowed into the EU?

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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12594
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Topic: Should turkey be allowed into the EU?

Posted By: mico5bei
Subject: Should turkey be allowed into the EU?
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 05:54

Turkey joining the EU is a very heated subject in Europe, one which most europeans tend to lean to the side of "over my dead body". Their reluctance could be attributed mostly to the resent rise in xenophobic feelings in Europe, especially towards Muslims. Also that many don't see Turkey as ever being a part of Europe, historically it being the divide between the Christian West and the Muslim East. But putting such emotional feelings aside, can Turkey's government adhere to the strict EU regulations for new member states in the forseeable future? Where it stands now, it definitly has a long way to go. I know that this forum boasts many Turkish members, I'd love to hear your views on the subject.

Replies:

Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 07:39

Turkey has been waiting on the EU door for decades now ...

September 1959: Turkey applies for associate membership of the European Economic Community (EEC).
September 1963: An association agreement (known as the Ankara Agreement) is signed, aiming at bringing Turkey into a Customs Union with the EEC and to eventual membership. A first financial protocol to the initial agreement is also signed.
14 April 1987: Turkey makes an application for full EEC membership.
1995: Turkey-EU Association Council finalises the agreement creating a customs union between Turkey and the EU.
December 1997: At the Luxembourg Summit, Turkey is declared eligible to become a member of the European Union.
December 1999: EU Helsinki Council recognises Turkey as an EU candidate country on an equal footing with other candidate countries.
March 2001: The EU Council of Ministers adopts the EU- Turkey Accession Partnership.
September 2001: Turkish parliament adopts a major constitutional reform in order to meet the Copenhagen political criteria for EU membership.
August 2002: Parliament begins to introduce political and human rights reforms designed to meet the Copenhagen political criteria.
May 2003: The EU Council of Ministers decides on the principles, priorities, intermediate objectives and conditions of the Accession Partnership with Turkey.
October 2004: The Commission presents its �Recommendation of the European Commission on Turkey�s Progress towards accession� along with its paper �Issues Arising from Turkey�s Membership Perspective.�
17 December 2004: The European Council defines the conditions for the opening of accession negotiations.
May 2005: Appointment of State Minister Ali Babacan as Chief negotiator with the EU.
June 2005: The Commission adopts its proposal for a revised Accession Partnership and a Communication on the civil-society dialogue between EU and Candidate countries. This communication sets out a general framework on how to create and reinforce links between civil society in the EU and candidate countries. The dialogue will have a special focus on Turkey, as the state of mutual knowledge is particularly weak with that country and misconceptions and concerns more widespread.
October 2005: Starting of the screening process concerning the analytical examination of the acquis.
December 2005: Adoption by the Council of a revised Accession Partnership for Turkey.

... it would be pretty strange to slam the door after all these years of emtpy promises for EU membership, wouldn't it?

Regarding the pros and cons of Turkish membership, I think the issue has been discussed so many times that all arguments about the "clash of civilization", "troyan horse", "EU double standards" have become cliches ...
BBC hosts a pretty good debates on the issue:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3683204.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3683204.stm

I personally support Turkish EU membership but not at any cost.

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 07:57

There are, of course, dozens of threads on the very same topic in AE.

But with a fluctuating membership on AE, there might be some new insights.

As many of the threads have turned sour in the past, let's try and keep this one civil.

My opinion, if Turkey wants to join the EU and fulfills all the usual entry conditions, they're more than welcome.

The EU is a economic and political union, not a religious or cultural one, but a Muslim country in the EU would further enrich the cultural diversity and might bridge a gap that needs desperately to be brigded.

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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">

Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 08:42

Turkey may have been waiting for EU membership for decades but I still don't belive it will furfill the requirements for membership anytime soon. Unless Turkey completely forfills these requirements, it shouldn't be admitted. It must adhere to the same standards as all new members, I don't believe Turkey will get to that level for quite sometime. I would give it another decade.......though i may be wrong.

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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 09:10

What exactly are these EU requirements? If it is all about human rights I fully support them, but it is not ... many EU states (most notably Greece and the Greek Cypriot Administration) are trying to impose additional requirements such as the recognition of the Greek Cypriot Administration as the sole legitimate goverment on the island depsite its hostile attitude towards the Turkish Cypriots - such a recognition of the Greek Administration as the government of the whole island would amount to a complete capitulation of Turkey in Cyprus. Turkey and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus will never accept that and the EU should have known better before accepting only a part of a divided island essentially at war with the othe part as a member state.

Besides Turkey is facing much more stringent requirements than other countries such as Greece and Spain when they were entering the union ... both had just emerged from millitary dictatorship but the EU was quick to admit them.

Admission to the EU has nothing to do with "fulfilling requirements" or accepting "European values of democracy" ... its all about politics ... and the simple truth is that Turkey is enormous and would be too influential within the EU if accepted thus challenging the franco-german dominance within the Union. Turkey will be the most populous member - bigger than either France or Germany seperately.

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 09:30

Well Turkey will never know what it really boils down to untill they have completed the requirements. When the most basic and most important criteria have been furfilled, such as Human rights, it will be hard for the EU to ignore Turkeys entry.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 09:38

Originally posted by Komnenos

There are, of course, dozens of threads on the very same topic in AE.

But with a fluctuating membership on AE, there might be some new insights.

As many of the threads have turned sour in the past, let's try and keep this one civil.

My opinion, if Turkey wants to join the EU and fulfills all the usual entry conditions, they're more than welcome.

logical and succint....concur....it's overdue for the very reasons stated above...

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Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 09:49

Whats overdue?

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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 09:54

http:////www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5862&KW=turkey&PN=1 - - PDF

"− the Copenhagen criteria, which set down the following requirements for membership:
*the stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;
* the existence of a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competitive pressure and market forces within the Union;
* the ability to take on the obligations of membership, including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union and the administrative capacity to effectively apply and implement the acquis;
− Turkey's unequivocal commitment to good neighbourly relations and its undertaking to resolve any outstanding border disputes in conformity with the principle of peaceful settlement of disputes in accordance with the United Nations Charter, including if necessary jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice;
− Turkey's continued support for efforts to achieve a comprehensive settlement of the Cyprus problem within the UN framework and in line with the principles on which the Union is founded, including steps to contribute to a favourable climate for a comprehensive settlement, and progress in the normalisation of bilateral relations between Turkey and all EU Member States, including the Republic of Cyprus.
− the fulfilment of Turkey's obligations under the Association Agreement and its Additional Protocol extending the Association Agreement to all new EU Member States, in particular those pertaining to the EU-Turkey customs union, as well as the implementation of the Accession Partnership, as regularly revised." pg 3.

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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 09:55

the time of the EU is over why do you think they're allowing east-eurpean countries. Cheap labor and such. I prefer that turkey joins something else something new. Eu has no workers what so ever mostly foreign (east europe and other) No resouces exept for gas. You can be so technologicly advanced but If you have no resources and no workers to process it. What to do?

Did you know that in the Netherlands they're closing universities and making it expesiver and harder to studie because they have a lack of worker.

The time of the west is probably over It's in the east now. Not now but in max 20 years it will be.

btw could someone give me examples of the natural resources the countries in the EU have tnx

oh yeah turkey joining the Eu will never happen they have to officially recognise Cyprus as a country and not just the North. Facts are Facts

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 09:58

WOW! Proves my point, they are still along long long way off...

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Posted By: VARLAAM
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 09:59

Well E.U. forgot to ask bg_turk before accepting Cyprus as member state.Well My opinion Europeans want Turkey more as market to sell their products and make with low prices holidays .If Turkey become a full member needs enormous budgets to converge the economy of Turkey of the European economies .Who is gonna contribute the budget E.U. with these money.

thats the big question ?

There is already a problem with the distribution of the sources (specially

with Poland).

My feeling is that is more economic problem than political or human rights.

Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 10:03

to xi tujue
Natural resources are dwindling, no one has ample supplies of them anymore, the east is no exception. Europe may not have much natural resources, but it has infastructure, technology, the resources of the future which will make all the difference. The east may be the future power, but they have a long way to catch up yet...and if by east you mean China, that is still not a certain thing

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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 10:11

True economics is more important than what they may say, but emotions and perceptions are very powerful in this case to.

Cheap labour can be sourced from anywhere BTW and the demographic arguent while valid can be solved through internal family based policies or even easier general immigration intakes.

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Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 10:16

No, over my dead body.

Actually Turkey should be allowed, but we should refuse to join.

I think that's better.

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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 10:25

Originally posted by barish

No, over my dead body.

Actually Turkey should be allowed, but we should refuse to join.

I think that's better.

yep you're right

btw japan has more advanced technology than the europeans

and what influence just because it's big importer well that going to change

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 10:53

To Xi tujue,
Why dont you start your own thread about whatever you want to talk about, this is about Turkey and the EU

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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 10:59

Originally posted by Leonidas

"− the Copenhagen criteria, which set down the following requirements for membership:
*the stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;
* the existence of a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competitive pressure and market forces within the Union;
* the ability to take on the obligations of membership, including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union and the administrative capacity to effectively apply and implement the acquis;

The Copenhagen criteria are the prerequisite to being declared a candidate country, and since Turkey has been declared a candidate country she has already met those.

− Turkey's unequivocal commitment to good neighbourly relations and its undertaking to resolve any outstanding border disputes in conformity with the principle of peaceful settlement of disputes in accordance with the United Nations Charter, including if necessary jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice;

good neighbourly relations? Shouldn't the EU have appled those same requirement to the Greek Cypriot administration before it joined. How is it possible for a country effectively at war with the other half of itself to be admitted to the EU?

− Turkey's continued support for efforts to achieve a comprehensive settlement of the Cyprus problem within the UN framework and in line with the principles on which the Union is founded, including steps to contribute to a favourable climate for a comprehensive settlement, and progress in the normalisation of bilateral relations between Turkey and all EU Member States, including the Republic of Cyprus.

The entity which you refer to by the name of "Republic of Cyprus" is unrecognized by Turkey and Turkish Cypriots and does not in any way shape or form represent the Turkish Cypriot community which is completely absent from its governing structures.

Improvement in the bilateral relations are only possible if the Republic of Cyprus shows the same goodwill towards the Turkish Cypruit community.

The Turkish Cypriots have done everything possible for the achievement of peace on the island, inlcuding the toppling of hardliner President Denktash, the readiness to dissolve their state in their YES vote towards the Annan plan, but none of these have so far been recpiprocated. The uncompromising stance of the Greeks in Cyprus boldened by their EU membership has lead EU's Gunter Verheugen to exclaim that he felt cheated by Greek Cypriots:

The EU's Gunter Verheugen said the Greek Cypriot government had cheated the EU by pretending to support the unification plan while in reality campaigning against it.

Mr Verheugen said the government "had taken him for a ride", and he directly criticised the Greek Cypriot leader, Tassos Papadopoulos.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3649437.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3649437.stm

"We're all profoundly disappointed that this historic opportunity has been lost," EU External Relations Commissioner Chris Patten said.

"I don't think the leadership of the Greek Cypriot community have behaved well, to put it mildly - gagging (European) commissioners' attempts to speak in the community and so on."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3660171.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3660171.stm

Despite its promises to lift the isolation and to provide economic aid to the north in the wake of the Greek rejection of the unification proposal, the EU has so far failed to take any concrete step.

In spite of reassurances, Turkish Northern Cyprus is as isolated as ever. Jonny Dymond reports from Northern Cyprus:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news_web/video/9012da68000d7b0/bb/09012da68000d861_bb_16x9.asx - http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news_web/video/9012da68000d7b0/bb/09012da68000d861_bb_16x9.asx

− the fulfilment of Turkey's obligations under the Association Agreement and its Additional Protocol extending the Association Agreement to all new EU Member States, in particular those pertaining to the EU-Turkey customs union, as well as the implementation of the Accession Partnership, as regularly revised." pg 3.

Turkey might consider lifting its isolation against Southern Cyprus, when the embargoes against Northern Cyprus are lifted.

http://www.embargoed.org/ - http://www.embargoed.org/
There is no chance for Turkish parliament to accept a lifting of the isolation against Southern Cyprus, when the North is still under embargoes.

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 11:14

Originally posted by bg_turk

[QUOTE=Leonidas]

"− the Copenhagen criteria, which set down the following requirements for membership:
*the stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;
* the existence of a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competitive pressure and market forces within the Union;
* the ability to take on the obligations of membership, including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union and the administrative capacity to effectively apply and implement the acquis;

The Copenhagen criteria are the prerequisite to being declared a candidate country, and since Turkey has been declared a candidate country she has already met those.

[quote]

How has turkey met those requirements, they are prerequisites for membership,not candicacy. Human rights? Respect for minorities?

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Posted By: Seljuk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 13:15

No. Turkey lost enough time with EU, should go her own way there are always alternatives.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 13:52

Originally posted by Komnenos

There are, of course, dozens of threads on the very same topic in AE.

But with a fluctuating membership on AE, there might be some new insights.

As many of the threads have turned sour in the past, let's try and keep this one civil.

My opinion, if Turkey wants to join the EU and fulfills all the usual entry conditions, they're more than welcome.

What about social, crime, racial/ethnic, religious issues Kommie????

Enrich what cultural diversity

Whats wrong with Europe the way it is??

Lets take a look at things from a different prospective.

-Do Europeans actually want MORE Islam introduced into Europe??

-Will the Turks close themselves off, not learn the language and have more children than the natives?

-Islam is alien to Europe

-No one wants them- I have read forums concerning this matter and NO ONE wants them in Europe.

-Your putting pressure on the original inhabitants to welcome people who they do not want.

-How many Turks will leave Turkey for Europe???

-They arent even European.

Try look at this issue from a different point of view Komnemos.

Im not from Europe yet it would be just the same here.

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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 14:08

Originally posted by machine

-Do Europeans actually want MORE Islam introduced into Europe??

Islam is not introduced to Europe, it is part of Europe. I am a European Muslim.

-Will the Turks close themselves off, not learn the language and have more children than the natives?

The Turks are the natives in Turkey. We are not talking about moving the whole Turkish population to Europe, but making Turkey part of the European Union. I think with growing prosperity at home more Turks will be encouraged to stay in their homeland rather than move to Europe in search of a better life.

-Islam is alien to Europe

As Mila has pointed out on several occasions, Christianity is alien to Europe too as it did not originate in Europe but was introduced to Europe from the Middle East like Islam.

-No one wants them- I have read forums concerning this matter and NO ONE wants them in Europe.

With such generalizations you look ridiculous. There certainly are Europeans who want Turkey in.

-Your putting pressure on the original inhabitants to welcome people who they do not want.

-How many Turks will leave Turkey for Europe???

I am sure the EU will put some restrictions on labor mobility as it did in Poland.

-They arent even European.

More Turks live in Europe than the populations of Serbia or Bulgaria or Greece.

Your Islamophobic hysteria is pathetic. Dead

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 14:28

Bg-turk dude let it go man.

most of the turks don't even want the EU only the white bread westernised city people. No we aren't european. They don't like muslims because with all that terrorist stuff. But they think were like arabs wrong name one terrorist turk( exept those communists like feriye ayhan & co). If entering the EU means giving up your identety then no.

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 14:41

Islam is not introduced to Europe, it is part of Europe. I am a European Muslim.

Islam is apart of Europe mmmm ok if you say so. Judaism is apart of the Middle East, look how peaceful things are of present.

Perhaps you are right. This prosperity wont happen instantaniously and given a few years of Turkish immigration European countries could face many cultural/racial/religions promlems. Like they are now.

As Mila has pointed out on several occasions, Christianity is alien to Europe too as it did not originate in Europe but was introduced to Europe from the Middle East like Islam.

Yes your right but it also happened along time ago and Europe identifies itself with Christianity not Islam.

With such generalizations you look ridiculous. There certainly are Europeans who want Turkey in.

Yes i bet these Euros are a minority.

More Turks live in Europe than the populations of Serbia or Bulgaria or Greece.

How are Turks thought of in Europe??

Your Islamophobic hysteria is pathetic. Dead

Its not pathetic. I did not even mention terrorism.

What does European mean to people these days???? Dont people care about their identities, their cultures, their own people????

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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 14:49

Originally posted by machine

Yes your right but it also happened along time ago and Europe identifies itself with Christianity not Islam.

No, Europe is secular and it does not identify itself with any religion. No religious references exist in the European Constitution.

Yes i bet these Euros are a minority.

A minority, but nonetheless a substantial one ... besides public opinion changes and many Western Europeans who have visited Turkey would like to see the country as part of Europe. Those that oppose membership are ignorant of the country.

How are Turks thought of in Europe??

You mean how they are perceived in Western Europe? I better leave it to western europeans who know turks to answer this question.

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 15:58

Economically EU is fine, for our internal democracy, It is fine too. but when it comes international relations, EU is harmful.(what is the taste of international politics, If you dont harrass greece and cyprus)

After enhancing our democracy and economy, EU can go anywhere she want. Until it, we love eu

Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 16:13

Originally posted by Mortaza

After enhancing our democracy and economy, EU can go anywhere she want. Until it, we love eu

Damn it Mortoza you have blown our cover

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 16:21

Machine
-Do Europeans actually want MORE Islam introduced into Europe??

When a country enters the EU it does not smother the continant or invade land....nothing will actually change in the European countries, just another country will be added to the pollitical club.

Machine
-Will the Turks close themselves off, not learn the language and have more children than the natives?

Theres alot of Turks in London, most are bilingual and rapidly climbing the social ladder, there's alot of Turks in our universities also their English-Turkish business and trade forums are contributing to the country. Turkey is a vital energy hub for the West, its potential is only beginning to be expored for eg. the B-T-C project etc etc

Machine
-Islam is alien to Europe

Its just as alien as Christianity is, not to mention it only entered a few centuries after Christianity via Spain.

Spain has a longer Islamic history than Catholic one, the golden age of Al-Andalus and the advances of the Ottomans heavily influenced the renaissance.

Not to mention Albania, Kosovo, Bosnia and large populations throughout the Balkans and the rest of Europe.

Machine
-No one wants them- I have read forums concerning this matter and NO ONE wants them in Europe.

UK wouldn't mind

we don't really care about the EU, its slowly disintegrating anyway.

Machine
-How many Turks will leave Turkey for Europe???

There already are millions in Europe so what would it change.

Machine
-They arent even European.

Define "European", according to the French we arn't "European" either, were the Anglo-American alliance

The EU needs Turkey, EU has a ageing population, is slowly entering stagnation, needs energy hubs in its own club, needs to counter the Anglo-American-Israeli alliance.

Regardless of what you think of Turkey today, in 10-15 years it will have a huge, dynamic educated population, its standards will be approaching those of Europe and it will have a powerfull economy, Europe will need Turkey, Turkey won't need the EU infact all it would do is hinder it at that stage as it would need to share its wealth among newer less economically developed Eastern European new EU states.

If the EU throws away its golden opportunity we'll take it, Israel supports Turkey's entry so does America so does UK we need to control the EU from the beginning ie UK and finish ie TUrkey.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 17:56

Islam is apart of Europe mmmm ok if you say so. Judaism is apart of the Middle East, look how peaceful things are of present.

Very cheap and irrelevant comparison indeed.

This possible prospect of emigration waves is being way too much exaggerated...In 1960s, West Germany wanted Gastarbeiters from Turkey itself, Turkey didn't force them...And compare the Spanish,Portuguese and Greek GDP per capitas before membership to EU to Turkish GDP per capitas,they are near, now there is a significant difference..You will see how it drastically changes if Turkey is allowed.There won't be millions going there after membership.Europe shall get it used to a secular and tolerant structure as there are already tens of millions of Muslims there...Your point is not really realistic.

Your Islamophobic hysteria is pathetic. Dead

Its not pathetic. I did not even mention terrorism.

Yes, it is pathetic and you are misinformed.

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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli

Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 18:06

Originally posted by VARLAAM

Cannot be only limited with the market and economical reasons, even though this is the largest factor...Strategical reasons are a part of it...

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We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli

Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 18:32

Originally posted by machine

[

What about social, crime, racial/ethnic, religious issues Kommie????

Enrich what cultural diversity

Whats wrong with Europe the way it is??

Lets take a look at things from a different prospective.

-Do Europeans actually want MORE Islam introduced into Europe??

-Will the Turks close themselves off, not learn the language and have more children than the natives?

-Islam is alien to Europe

-No one wants them- I have read forums concerning this matter and NO ONE wants them in Europe.

-Your putting pressure on the original inhabitants to welcome people who they do not want.

-How many Turks will leave Turkey for Europe???

-They arent even European.

Try look at this issue from a different point of view Komnemos.

Im not from Europe yet it would be just the same here.

As for your core argument:

Turkey is member of most European organisations and has been for a long time: OECD, Council of Europe, OSCE, NATO, UEFA, Eurovision Song Contest, and so on, to name only the most important.

By inviting Turkey to join these European organisations, The European states have made it perfectly clear that they understand Turkey as a part of Europe. And it follows quite naturally, by accepting a country as being European, you include its population.

Turkey's entry in the EU would therefore be no surprising or radical step, but the logical continuation of a process.

As for the rest of the arguments, we have heard it all before.

Every time a country joined that was not located in the West of Europe where the EU originated, all these scare-mongering xenophobic rumours crept up, that floods of poor immigrants from the new countries would pour into Western Europe and take all our jobs, etc, it didn't happen when Greece, Spain or Portugal joined in the 80s and it didn't happen at the latest round in 2004.

The adversaries of Turkey's entry have of course have only one motive and only one argument. They play the race and religion card, in the current climate of Islamophobia the same.

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[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 22:05

Originally posted by bg_turk

The Copenhagen criteria are the prerequisite to being declared a candidate country, and since Turkey has been declared a candidate country she has already met those.

this bit of misinformation has been answered already. Please make an effort to understand whats put in front of you.

BTW These points have been agreed to by ankara, and we are waiting for all points to be covered. All three are resaonble EU type points yes?

Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Leonidas

− Turkey's unequivocal commitment to good neighbourly relations and its undertaking to resolve any outstanding border disputes in conformity with the principle of peaceful settlement of disputes in accordance with the United Nations Charter, including if necessary jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice;

This is about turkey's membership.

FYI , threats of war and fighter jets in aegean are more the measure for neighbourly relations Stern Smile

. Thats not the cyprus sensative line. This is the behiavour (status quo) you support, so please tell me how can the EU let another country in when that behavoiur and verbal threat continues?

bitching about greeks will only get turkey so far. Cyprus met the pre-requists, so did greece, both are EU members, once you get past that fact turkey's membership is certain.

Originally posted by bg_turk

The entity which you refer to by the name of "Republic of Cyprus" is unrecognized by Turkey and Turkish Cypriots and does not in any way shape or form represent the Turkish Cypriot community which is completely absent from its governing structures.

well there lies the problem, you have to reconize all members equally before you join the Union. Legally, naturaly and rightly so.

Originally posted by bg_turk

Improvement in the bilateral relations are only possible if the Republic of Cyprus shows the same goodwill towards the Turkish Cypruit community.

goodwill and blank cheques are two different things. One side wants union and the other as much seperation as possible. All cypriots must have the same rights in all parts of the EU, as every other EU citizen. All EU countries should not be requried to host each others militaries in their terrirtory. All EU rules and subjects of soverignty must be applied equally. Legally, naturaly and rightly so.

Originally posted by bg_turk

Turkey might consider lifting its isolation against Southern Cyprus, when the embargoes against Northern Cyprus are lifted.

There is no chance for Turkish parliament to accept a lifting of the isolation against Southern Cyprus, when the North is still under embargoes.

turkey agreed to customs union already, if it couldnt do it at that point or didnt want to, it should of walked then and there. It didnt, signed the agreemant knowing full well what the EU ment by the words and now is trying bargain it away after the fact. Do you sign agreemants and then argue over the agreemant BG? where i come from thats disingenous and dishonest behavoiur.

Now, this is about turkey, turkey's behavoiur and turkey membership. You are deflecting the questions back from turkey. Do have you the ability to talk about the overall issues? or are you goin to bore us with your whining and moaning about greeks, again?

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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 22:15

forumers, i grew up around people like machine. Im embarressed but not suprised that there these types in my country stuck in the white australia mentality.

He knows nothing iof turkey's candidancy as you can see, he argues only on general non specifics of fear and distrust.

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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 22:52

Originally posted by Leonidas

this bit of misinformation has been answered already. Please make an effort to understand whats put in front of you.

BTW These points have been agreed to by ankara, and we are waiting for all points to be covered. All three are resaonble EU type points yes?

of course and as far as I know Turkey had already met the Copenhagen requirements at least on paper. It is a functioning market (an enormous one at that) and most of the laws are already synchronized with the EU acquis but there are some problems with implemenation.

This is about turkey's membership.

FYI , threats of war and fighter jets in aegean are more the measure for neighbourly relations Stern Smile

Cyprus (i.e. the Greek administered area) entered because Greece threatened to block the entire expansion process if the Greek administered area did not enter as the sole legitimate government. Never in the history of the EU before has a country not in control of its claimed territory has been allowed in. By admitting only one of two warring parties, the EU has derailed the Cyprus peace process and encouraged the maximalist and absolutist demands of Greek Cypriots and has emboldened their hardliner leader Papadopoulos.

well there lies the problem, you have to reconize all members equally before you join the Union. Legally, naturaly and rightly so.

impossible ... recognition of the Greek Cypriot administration as the sole legitimate ruler of Cyprus would ammount to a complete Turkish capitulation in Cyprus, derecognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and a surrender of the Turkish Cypriots ... Turkey would rather have it EU membership suspended than surrender Turkish Cypriots.

Besides Turkey has no problem recognizing the Greek Cypriot Administration in its current form and territories, what Turkey objects to is the claims of that Administration that it represents the entire island - a claim which is clearly disputed by Turkish Cypriots and which goes against 30 years of UN efforts to find a federal bizonal bicommunal solution where TCs and GCs will be equally represented. Asking Turkey to recognize the Greek part of the island as the only legitimate government is a maximalist demand.

goodwill and blank cheques are two different things. One side wants union and the other as much seperation as possible.

Turkish Cypriots have shown their prounification stance in a very definiteve way during the Unification Referendum which Greek Cypriots rejected resoundingly. Recent polls in the South indicate that an increasing number of Greek Cyprios do not wish to live together with their Turkish counterparts. Who is the one against unification and who wants seperation?

All cypriots must have the same rights in all parts of the EU, as every other EU citizen. All EU countries should not be requried to host each others militaries in their terrirtory. All EU rules and subjects of soverignty must be applied equally. Legally, naturaly and rightly so.

Why is it then that Turkish Cypriots who are supposedly EU citizens do not have the right to trade with the rest of the world? Why is it that they cannot participate in international sporting competitions? Why do their property, voting and many other fundamental rights in the Greek dominated Republic of Cyprus continue to be violated under the absurd and uncostitutional "Law of Necessity"? Or is your understanding of "EU rights" only limitted to Greek Cypriots?

When you are confronted with the disingenous and dishonest behavior of the EU which promised to lift the isolation of Turkish Cypriots
and offer economic trade and so far has failed to meet any of the promises, you have no choice but to respond with similar methods. Turkey signed the agreement with the expectation that her goodwill will be reciprocated, and ALL restrictions on free trade in Cyprus will be lifted for ALL of its people, not only for PART of the people. Implementation of customs agreement with Southern Cyprus while the North is still isolated would be a political suicide for any Turkish government and the EU knows that.

Now, this is about turkey, turkey's behavoiur and turkey memeberbship. You are deflecting the questions back from turkey. Do have you the ability to talk about the overall issues? or are you goin to bore us with your whining and moaning about greeks, again?

The Cyprus problem is the main and major obstacle before Turkish EU membership. Talking about Turkish EU membership without mentioning Cyprus is impossible.

I am not whinning nor moaning against Greeks, I am simply expressing my opinion on the issue. You cannot talk about Turkish behaviour out of context without mentioning the Greek beahvior that provoked it.

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 22:53

Originally posted by Leonidas

forumers, i grew up around people like machine. Im embarressed but not suprised that there these types in my country stuck in the white australia mentality.

He knows nothing iof turkey's candidancy as you can see, he argues only on general non specifics of fear and distrust.

Thank you for saing that. I appreciate it.

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 23:05

Europe is becoming more and more xenophobic, a rise in right-wing thinking. Even though these peoples arguements are normally futile and without basis(i.e islam isn't apart of Europe) they can't be ignored, because they might play a huge effect on Turkeys application in the coming years.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 23:45

Im not stuck in a White Australia policy, i just think immigration should be toughened up.

And i know people like you Leonidas who would happily welcome the world into Australia without thinking of the consequences.

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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 08:06

If the people before you arrived in Australlia adopted your views, you wouldn't be an Australlian today, did you ever care to think about that?

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 08:11

Originally posted by mico5bei

Europe is becoming more and more xenophobic, a rise in right-wing thinking. Even though these peoples arguements are normally futile and without basis(i.e islam isn't apart of Europe) they can't be ignored, because they might play a huge effect on Turkeys application in the coming years.

The left-wing was rising for the last few years(as can be seen from elections in Spain etc.), but seems like the right is starting to rise again(Merkel's win against SPD)

-------------
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 10:26

Originally posted by Bulldog

If the people before you arrived in Australlia adopted your views, you wouldn't be an Australlian today, did you ever care to think about that?

Hyperthetically your right, in reality your wrong. Australia was a British/European colony, end of story.

I have nothing against immigrants from Middle Eat, Asia and Africa, but we dont need hordes of them.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 10:32

Leonidas im not sure what your problem is. If your beloved Greece was taking in hordes of immigrants im sure you would not be too happy about that.

Just imagine Athens being like Sydney, would that make you happy??

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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 10:44

Let's hope Athens will never have to experience something like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news_web/video/9012da68002e708/nb/09012da68002e9d4_16x9_nb.asx - http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news_web/video/9012da68002e708/nb/09012da68002e9d4_16x9_nb.asx

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 10:52

Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Leonidas

this bit of misinformation has been answered already. Please make an effort to understand whats put in front of you.
BTW These points have been agreed to by ankara, and we are waiting for all points to be covered. All three are resaonble EU type points yes?

no they havent BG, infact turkey seems to be slowing down its reforms. Judging from the latest statements out of ankara ( http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/4554192.asp?gid=74 -

Originally posted by bg_turk

Cyprus (i.e. the Greek administered area) entered because Greece threatened to block the entire expansion process if the Greek administered area did not enter as the sole legitimate government.

your language clearly reflects your bias, greece didnt threaten the EU, sounds good but that not what happened. They made a deal , which BTW they are allowed to do. The EU got what it wanted at the time, greece was happy, thats it. Its a EU matter, turkey being on the outside can only watch.

Originally posted by bg_turk

Never in the history of the EU before has a country not in control of its claimed territory has been allowed in. By admitting only one of two warring parties, the EU has derailed the Cyprus peace process and encouraged the maximalist and absolutist demands of Greek Cypriots and has emboldened their hardliner leader Papadopoulos.

spare me your rhetoric, The EU doesnt have a long history so its not that big a deal your trying to make out, nor does the EU have to answer to any external country. Unfortunatly for the turkish cypriots, being in a non reconised country, cant be treated as an equal part like the way your describing.

Well the turks would of got more in the long run if you gave some concessions before the cyprus's membership. At the time i shook my head at Gul, thinking he won the the top prize in negotiatian, gave nothing good for the greeks to vote yes for....absolute genius LOL

Originally posted by bg_turk

impossible ... recognition of the Greek Cypriot administration as the sole legitimate ruler of Cyprus would ammount to a complete Turkish capitulation in Cyprus, derecognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and a surrender of the Turkish Cypriots ... Turkey would rather have it EU membership suspended than surrender Turkish Cypriots.

it is very much possible with the right mentality. International law might be used to legitimase the invasion but it has and cannot be used to legitimise the TRNC. The TRNC was created by ethnic cleansing, which you said once upon a time should be reversed. Ok but if thats the case, your

agianst the annan peace plan, (like me and the greek cypriots) wanting freedom of movement and residence. (EU rights)
would negate the TRNC which would have either a sizable greek minority (or even a greek majority if the turks move across the island.)

The TRNC can only exist if divisions are kept the way they are, which means your agianst peace and unity. Get over that, and the peace can be achieved.

The sole legitamate ruler should be a democratically elected governemt where the state has citizens of equal status. How is that a big difference to any other soveigen state? please tell me why thats unreasonble without diving into circulars.

Originally posted by bg_turk

Besides Turkey has no problem recognizing the Greek Cypriot Administration in its current form and territories, what Turkey objects to is the claims of that Administration that it represents the entire island - a claim which is clearly disputed by Turkish Cypriots and which goes against 30 years of UN efforts to find a federal bizonal bicommunal solution where TCs and GCs will be equally represented. Asking Turkey to recognize the Greek part of the island as the only legitimate government is a maximalist demand.

big words hiding a irrational fear driven mentality. You can hold onto that part of the island like the generals want. Its would simply mean that turkey would be missing out on other opportunies and a real peace. You are siding with ethnic cleansing, illegal occupation and high defence budgets. No matter what extravagant words you can string on this.

The annan plan contradicted EU and basic democractic princibles (as mention above and before), greek and turkish cypriots deserve the same rights within the EU as everyone else. That peace plan limited their rights by zoning them.

Originally posted by bg_turk

ok is the horse before cart or behind it? They get those rights when they are a part unified whole. The structure on that whole, hasnt been agreed to, that has to be done first then the rest comes after. Infact this is a dead end argument on your behalf. You know perfectly well this isolation has always been the case due to the legalities of the occupation, so dont complain like its new. These are the results of the sitution created by the turkish policy that you support.

Infact you didnt answer my statment directly anyway. (becuase its true Big smile

)

Originally posted by bg_turk

When you are confronted with the disingenous and dishonest behavior of the EU which promised to lift the isolation of Turkish Cypriots and offer economic trade and so far has failed to meet any of the promises, you have no choice but to respond with similar methods.

thats a circular argument that gets you no where, they simply signed something they didnt mean. The EU cannot trade or deal with the TRNC in its present state, they cant. That a fact that has existed since the invasion, its would be unrealistic to hold any expectations that have these legalites disapear with a pen stroke.

Originally posted by bg_turk

Turkey signed the agreement with the expectation that her goodwill will be reciprocated, and ALL restrictions on free trade in Cyprus will be lifted for ALL of its people, not only for PART of the people. Implementation of customs agreement with Southern Cyprus while the North is still isolated would be a political suicide for any Turkish government and the EU knows that.

The political suicude was pushing for a continued military presence. I can tell you if the turkish military didnt get involved and the turks gave up two or three "redlines" (like the military presence funnily enough), the greeks would of voted yes and everyone would be happy.

Ok? its not just one sides fault!

Originally posted by bg_turk

The Cyprus problem is the main and major obstacle before Turkish EU membership. Talking about Turkish EU membership without mentioning Cyprus is impossible.

you half right, the real focus is the turkish approach and actions on this issue, as thats what effects its candinancy. Are you able to do that then?

Originally posted by bg_turk

I am not whinning nor moaning against Greeks, I am simply expressing my opinion on the issue. You cannot talk about Turkish behaviour out of context without mentioning the Greek beahvior that provoked it.

agian your language gives your narrow mindness away. You talk like the turks have no choice are faultless and that they are the ones being provoked.

why do you unoriginally regurgitate turkeys foreign policy with little moral imput? (which we see in every other thread/subject bar these ones).

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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 11:08

Machine

Hyperthetically your right, in reality your wrong. Australia was a British/European colony, end of story.

I have nothing against immigrants from Middle Eat, Asia and Africa, but we dont need hordes of them.

But there's already been horde's of European immigrant's, if people of your mentallity were ruling Australlia back then you wouldn't be an Australlian think of it that way.

Besides Australlia is HUGE and has a tiny population in proportion to its land mass, its not like your running out of space, further more you need the immigration to make use of all that land.

p.s Leonadis, Hurriyet-English online Version

I've never read a more absurd newspaper.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 11:08

Originally posted by bg_turk

Let's hope Athens will never have to experience something like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news_web/video/9012da68002e708/nb/09012da68002e9d4_16x9_nb.asx - http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news_web/video/9012da68002e708/nb/09012da68002e9d4_16x9_nb.asx

The most influential of the Middle Eastern crime groups are the Muslim males of Telopea Street, Bankstown, known as the Telopea Street Boys. They and their associates have been involved in numerous murders over the past five years, many of them unprovoked fatal attacks on young Australian men for no other reason than that they are "Skips", as they call Australians

..... And even more alarming is that the violence is directed mainly against young Australian men and women. There is a clear and definite link between violent attacks on our young men and women being racial as well as criminal. Quite often when taking statements from young men attacked by groups of Lebanese males around Darling Harbour, a common theme has been the racially motivated violence against the victims simply because they are Australian. I wonder whether the inventors of the racial hatred laws introduced during the golden years of multiculturalism ever took into account that we, the silent majority, would be the target of racial violence and hatred.

http://www.australian-news.com.au/Lebanese_crime.htm - http://www.australian-news.com.au/Lebanese_crime.htm

or this.

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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 11:09

I wonder how the Aboriginees feel about the hordes of European immigrants?

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 11:15

That happened well over a century ago Bulldog. Its out of my hands, blame the British. Your British.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 11:18

Probably should get back on topic.

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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 11:20

Blame? don't you like being Australlian? if you do I think that'll be "thank the Brittish", now why don't you return the favour and allow others to settle in that huge continant in the same way you did a hundred or so years ago

Your Australlian why does it bother you if Turkey enters the EU or not?

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 11:20

Originally posted by machine

Leonidas im not sure what your problem is. If your beloved Greece was taking in hordes of immigrants im sure you would not be too happy about that. Just imagine Athens being like Sydney, would that make you happy??

i dont "love" greece BTW. I'm proud of being greek and see other greeks wherever they are from as my own, thats different to loving a country i dont even live in.

How is it that I who's own ethnicity has a bloody and long history with the islamic world ( losing real family ancestors) have no problems with muslims today, yet you get all xenophobic about them?

athens/greece is full of immigrants, many are muslim. The fact your even comparing greeks in greece with anglo-celts to australia, is a bit rich ...

Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 11:41

Originally posted by Leonidas

i was always hopefull that erdogan would pull through but now i am a pessimist Unhappy

Its about the elections ... he is playing the nationalist card to gain more votes.

I know it is futile to argue on this issue, so I will just try to address the parts of your statements that I can show are factually incorrect.

greece didnt threaten the EU, sounds good but that not what happened.

Greece, for its part, has threatened to block all the EU's enlargement ambitions if Cyprus is not included in the first round of expansion.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1694326.stm

Originally posted by bg_turk

The TRNC was created by ethnic cleansing, which you said once upon a time should be reversed.

Yes, you are right. I fully support the human rights of Greek Cypriots but under the jurisdiction of the TRNCs and they should return only if they recognize its right to exist.

agianst the annan peace plan, (like me and the greek cypriots) wanting freedom of movement and residence. (EU rights)

I see you share many of the misconceptions abot the Annan plan as many other Greek Cypriots I have met. A friend from talkcyprus.org, who has actually read the plan, summarises the main points pertaining to your concerns about movement and residency:

Restrictions that I can NOT find anywhere in the plan:

Any permanent restrictions on Greek Cypriot ability to go anywhere they want in Cyprus.
Any restrictions permanent on Greek Cypriot ability to buy property anywhere they want in cyprus.
Any permanent restrictions on Greek Cypriot ability to live anywhere they want in Cyprus not as a resident of the CS they are not citizen of. That is they can live anywhere they like but there may be some restrictions on their ability to be politcaly represented at CS state level or local level depending on how many other Greek Cypriot (southern component state citizens) already have residency there.

Source:
http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1098

would negate the TRNC which would have either a sizable greek minority (or even a greek majority if the turks move across the island.)

If you do the calculations - when all Greek in Cyprus are compensated with Turkish properties in the South and the rest are allowed to return you will find out that they will form no more than 1/3 of the population. With territorial adjustment this ratio can be decreased further.
You can read more here:

http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2607&start=0 - http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2607&start=0

The sole legitamate ruler should be a democratically elected governemt where the state has citizens of equal status. How is that a big difference to any other soveigen state? please tell me why thats unreasonble without diving into circulars.

It is unreasonable because it undermines the Turkish Cypriot communal rights by turning them into a minority in a Greek dominated state.

Originally posted by bg_turk

big words hiding a irrational fear driven mentality. You can hold onto that part of the island like the generals want. Its would simply mean that turkey would be missing out on other opportunies and a real peace. You are siding with ethnic cleansing, illegal occupation and high defence budgets.

I am not, and on many occasions I expressed a full support for the restoration of human rights for everybody in Cyprus but WITHIN the current political framework. And there are encouraging signs for that with the establishment of the recent property comission under the directives of the ECHR that will not only be able to compensate, but also return the properties to Greek Cypriot refugees:
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=25557&archive=1 - http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=25557&archive=1

The annan plan contradicted EU and basic democractic princibles (as mention above and before), greek and turkish cypriots deserve the same rights within the EU as everyone else.

Would you please provide references to sections of the Plan which you believe contradicted basic human rights? As I showed above the claims that the Annan plan restricted right of residency and movement are myths used to justify the Greek rejection of the Annan plan but bear no relevance to reality.

Infact you didnt answer my statment directly anyway. (becuase its true Big smile

)

Your statement may be true in principle, and it is really great to support full human rights for everybody in Cyprus, but I am not that naive to believe that in practice it is achievable. If Turkish Cypriots were to relinquish their soveregntiy there is no guarantee that their rights will be respected and that they will not end up as Turks in Greece or Bulgaria with virtually no communal rights at all.

Originally posted by bg_turk

The EU cannot trade or deal with the TRNC in its present state, they cant.

Then they should not have made empty promises and deceived the Turkish Cypriot community with hopes for a better future.

Believe me the millitary was totally against the Annan plan in the first place as was Denktash. By putting the plan to referendum Erdogan had already pushed as many redilnes as possible and had taken an enormous political risk going against decades of Turkish foreign policy on a Plan that was not that different from previous version that Klerides had shown readiness to accept, but Denktash rejected.

Ok? its not just one sides fault!

The responsibility for the rejection of the Annan Plan rests entirely and solely upon the Greek Cypriot community and their leadership. Turkish Cypriots and Turkey (and even to some extent Greece (Bakoyanis)) were supportive of the plan

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 12:04

I have to tell you big turk, im sick and tired of hearing about Cyprus. All you do is complain and complain about Cyprus. You talk like Cyprus is the main issue why Turkey hasn't been admitted to the EU, everytime the topic about Turkey and the EU deflects to Cyprus. Im not claiming to know more about what your saying than you do, you obviously are very knowledgable in this subject, but Turkeys entrance to the EU has alot less to do with Cyprus than I think you make it out to be.

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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 12:24

Originally posted by mico5bei

I have to tell you big turk,

not big turk, Bulgarian(BG) Turk

im sick and tired of hearing about Cyprus.

Me too - on every single EU declaration pertaining to Turkey, the EU does not fail to mention Cyprus and try to undermine the already precarious position of the Turkish Cypriot community on the island. Withou the Cyprus problem that Turkish accession would have been so much smoother and easier.

But anyway you maybe right that I am giving disproportionate attention to Cyprus ... Cyprus is a tiny island, and if it werent for it, France and the opposers of Turkish membershib witin the EU, I am sure would have found other excuses to block Turkish membership.

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 12:26

mICO

but Turkeys entrance to the EU has alot less to do with Cyprus

You'd be suprised, it really does revolve around Cyprus.

Once this issue is solved another issue will arise.

Turkey will never enter Europe it simply will not be allowed in because of "Old Europe", its stuck in the past century, is decadent and only hurting itself with sheer ignorance.

Great news for the more enlightened powers of the world, Turkey is of great importance if only you realised.

Keep pushing them away....

Israel aims to hook up to Azeri-Turkish pipelines

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=45788 - http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=45788

In 15/20 years Turkey won't need Europe, you'll need Turkey.

Why should Turkey join the EU, its got far more opportunities and other global powers who want good relations with her based on mutual respect not one-sided racist bigotry against her.

The future of energy resources is located around the Caspian Sea-Central Asia making Turkey's position key.

America know's this (just look at its announcements and support for projects in Kazakhistan and Turkmenistan

), so does the UK, so does Israel, its a shame Europe's still pissing its pants about Vienna to open its eyes to the reality.

Turkey should carry on using the EU as a platform for its reforms and development and when it reaches a stage where its on-par with European standards simply say bye-bye, the shock this will give Europe will cause it to this time "try" to get Turkey to join.

It'll be funny to see who has the last laugh.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 12:48

Originally posted by Bulldog

You'd be suprised, it really does revolve around Cyprus.

you are totally right ... just today Greek Cypriot Republic refused to agree to the closure of the chapter on science and research unless Turkey meets their political demand of openning its ports and airports to Souterh Cypriot vessels (mind you).

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=45877 - http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=45877

Turkey simply cannot negotiate under conditions where Greek Cypriots obstruct the process even in totally unrleated to their demands areas. I expect that the negotiations will be suspended.

Let's hope that the Turkish economy will be resilient enough to survive sucha developement.

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 13:44

Sorry I should have noticed the Bulgarian flag, I just thought "Big" maybe because of the picture of the turkish olympic weight lifter, big just came into my head.

Why should Turkey join the EU, its got far more opportunities and other global powers who want good relations with her based on mutual respect not one-sided racist bigotry against her.

The future of energy resources is located around the Caspian Sea-Central Asia making Turkey's position key.

America know's this (just look at its announcements and support for projects in Kazakhistan and Turkmenistan ), so does the UK, so does Israel, its a shame Europe's still pissing its pants about Vienna to open its eyes to the reality.

Well I always knew about Turkeys strategic importance in the region and Americas keen interest in Turkish Friendship. I didn't know about its importance regarding future energy supplies though, but now I can really see the important role Turkey could play in Europes future. Europe is already on the edge when it come to energy supplies, relying on Russians for gas, not to mention the prices for petrol these days.

I can defenitly see what you mean about Cyprus, on the one hand it shouldn't be a big deal(something which could seriously jepordise Turkeys entrance to the EU) but on the other hand, countrys against Turkish membership could really make it one and are, as i now see.

As far as my opinion on Turkey joining the EU, i must be honest, im Irish and I was quite against it before. However I really failed to look closely at the big picture. I can really see what an important role Turkey could play in the future of Europe if they join and they should be welcomed. But honestly, for all the reasons named so far in this thread, i don't see it happening for awhile.

Been enlighting!

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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 13:48

Originally posted by mico5bei

I have to tell you big turk, im sick and tired of hearing about Cyprus. All you do is complain and complain about Cyprus. You talk like Cyprus is the main issue why Turkey hasn't been admitted to the EU, everytime the topic about Turkey and the EU deflects to Cyprus. Im not claiming to know more about what your saying than you do, you obviously are very knowledgable in this subject, but Turkeys entrance to the EU has alot less to do with Cyprus than I think you make it out to be.

thats all nice and stuff but his name is Bulgar turk (bulgarian turk)

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 21:06

Originally posted by bg_turk

As I showed above the claims that the Annan plan restricted right of residency and movement are myths used to justify the Greek rejection of the Annan plan but bear no relevance to reality.

Myths??? Have you ever read the Annan Plan carefully?
Article 3.7:
"In addition, for a transitional period a constituent state may, pursuant to Constitutional Law, limit the establishment of residence by persons hailing from the other constituent state. To this effect, it may establish a moratorium until the end of the fifth year after entry into force of the Foundation Agreement, after which limitations are permissible if the number of residents hailing from the other constituent state has reached 6% of the population of a village or municipality between the 6th and 9th years and 12% between the 10th and 14th years and 18% of the population of the relevant constituent state thereafter, until the 19th year or Turkey�s accession to the European Union, whichever is earlier."

The responsibility for the rejection of the Annan Plan rests entirely and solely upon the Greek Cypriot community and their leadership.

The responsibility for the rejection rests upon those who made a Plan by forgeting that Turkey has invaded and occuppied (and stil occupies) part of Cyprus. If they had remembered this fact then they would have made a Plan that would allow all Cypriots to retutn to their homes and of course they would have kicked the invading forces out of Cyprus.

just today Greek Cypriot Republic refused to agree to the closure of the chapter on science and research unless Turkey meets their political demand of openning its ports and airports to Souterh Cypriot vessels (mind you).

Turkey simply cannot negotiate under conditions where Greek Cypriots obstruct the process even in totally unrleated to their demands areas. I expect that the negotiations will be suspended.

Turkey has signed an agreement and the EU expects from her to respect her signature. It is true that ROC brought the subject up, while some objected. Then the Austrian presidency submitted a conciliatory proposal, only to be rejected by Great Britain. So whose fault is it? Cyprus', UK's or Turkey's who refuses to fulfil her obligations in the first place??
http://news.ert.gr/en/6/18523.asp - http://news.ert.gr/en/6/18523.asp
I expect that the negotiations will not be suspended. Let's see who's right...

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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 22:14

Originally posted by Neoptolemos

"In addition, for a transitional period a constituent state may, pursuant to Constitutional Law, limit the establishment of residence by persons hailing from the other constituent state. To this effect, it may establish a moratorium until the end of the fifth year after entry into force of the Foundation Agreement, after which limitations are permissible if the number of residents hailing from the other constituent state has reached 6% of the population of a village or municipality between the 6th and 9th years and 12% between the 10th and 14th years and 18% of the population of the relevant constituent state thereafter, until the 19th year or Turkey�s accession to the European Union, whichever is earlier."

The key word that you are missing is "transitional". These limitations on residency will be only temporary and they will extend no further than 19 years after reunification or Turkish membership (whichever is earlier), and will not be permament derogations as Leonidas seemed to impy. Such temporary limitations exist for other EU citizens such as those in Poland and their right to reside in the EU for instance and it is only natural that they exist since each constitutent state of United Cyprus will need time to deal with the massive population movement that will occur as a result of unification.

In fact the same paragraph was quoted in the link I provided and will provide again for your convenience:
http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1098 - http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1098

By the way I too hope that the negotiations with the EU will continue ... but it looks increasingly likely that Southern Cyprus will derail (that there will be a Cyprus Train Crash as Baroso says).

I hope you are right that the negotations will continue but do not expect Turkey to compromise further on Cyprus - on the contrary from now on the Turkish stance will become increasingly hardline with approaching elections and the possibility of the election of a less concilatory government than that of Erdogan. A golden opportunity for reunification was missed.
It was a take it or leave it kind of opportunity, which Greek Cypriots chose to reject in the hope of getting a much better deal with EU help but they might as well get nothing in return now. Partition is more likely than ever.

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: Arb�r Z
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 22:41

In my opinion Turkey will not integrate as a part of the EU, the european politicians will not allow it for some clear reasons.

1. Turkey, and other countries as well, form a strip which separates economical,political,military and cultural Europe from economical, pol.mlt.cul. Asia. This countries serve as an airbag, absorbing every possible crash in every term.

2. The EU is not a unified political body, there are many controversial currents acting within that, and this makes decisions difficult. It is not clear whether EU is going toward integration or disintegration, or if its going to accept new members.

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Prej heshtjes...!

Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 23:16

Originally posted by bg_turk

The key word that you are missing is "transitional".

I'm not missing any word. I now very well what I quoted.

These limitations on residency will be only temporary and they will extend no further than 19 years after reunification or Turkish membership (whichever is earlier), and will not be permament derogations as Leonidas seemed to impy.

20 years (!) after reunification. Makes you wonder what kind of reunification it is... future reunification...

Such temporary limitations exist for other EU citizens such as those in Poland and their right to reside in the EU for instance

EU is a union of sovereign States. Cyprus is one (1) State, so it's not the same thing.

and it is only natural that they exist since each constitutent state of United Cyprus will need time to deal with the massive population movement that will occur as a result of unification.

There could be some short-term limitations in order for the unification to go smoothly, I don't disagree, but only 40-50,000 GC are allowed to move in a 19 years time span??? Please...

By the way I too hope that the negotiations with the EU will continue ... but it looks increasingly likely that Southern Cyprus will derail (that there will be a Cyprus Train Crash as Baroso says).

Baroso can say whatever he wants. I'm missing Prodi already anyways...

I hope you are right that the negotations will continue but do not expect Turkey to compromise further on Cyprus

If Turkey is not going to compromise further on Cyprus (sic), then I may have to change my statement; sooner or later the negotiations will be suspended.

A golden opportunity for reunification was missed.

Indeed. If only the Plan makers where a bit more carefull we would have a unified Cyprus now.

It was a take it or leave it kind of opportunity, which Greek Cypriots chose to reject in the hope of getting a much better deal with EU help but they might as well get nothing in return now. Partition is more likely than ever.

I've told you again, untill a few years ago the Turkish position was that the problem in Cyprus is solved, i.e. defacto partition. Today Turkey recognises that there is a problem, so partition is less likely than in the past.

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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 23:26

I have answers for most of your concerns but maybe I should refrain in order not to digress from the topic further...

if you are really interested in the Cyprus problem feel free to raise those issues in

www.talkcyprus.org - www.talkcyprus.org

Maybe I should just reply to your point regarding the 19 year period. It is the maximal time for restrictions, most of Greek Cypriots refugees would have returned much earlier in the first years after unification (for example Morphou would now be Greek again had the plan been accepted). The longer limitation on residence and buying property in the TCCS was necessary due to Turkish Cypriot concerns that they will be overflooded and made economically dependent on the richer South, and it was though that this period was a good compromise that would provide them with just enought time to catch up economically after decades of isolation and deprivation.

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 02:35

Originally posted by Bulldog

Your Australlian why does it bother you if Turkey enters the EU or not?

Yeh i like being an Aussie. It may be a huge continent, but its mainly desert.

Naaaa screw returning favors, well never get paid back

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 02:37

Originally posted by Bulldog

Machine

Hyperthetically your right, in reality your wrong. Australia was a British/European colony, end of story.

I have nothing against immigrants from Middle Eat, Asia and Africa, but we dont need hordes of them.

But there's already been horde's of European immigrant's, if people of your mentallity were ruling Australlia back then you wouldn't be an Australlian think of it that way.

Besides Australlia is HUGE and has a tiny population in proportion to its land mass, its not like your running out of space, further more you need the immigration to make use of all that land.

p.s Leonadis, Hurriyet-English online Version

I've never read a more absurd newspaper.

Oh damn your right perhaps we should start settling millions of immigrants in central Australia

Australia cant sustain anymore than what its got now. NO WATER.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 02:43

Originally posted by Leonidas

your quick LOL

Maybe i like Australia as it is Leo. Australia will do fine with a anglo-celt population + others.

When im talking of immigrants im not just talking about Muslims either Leonidas.

Why is it all people such as yourself have to say it xenophobia this xenophobia that when thats not the case.

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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 12:10

Mico

Im part Irish aswell Big smile

You should really look into Turkey's role as a future energy hub its quite amazing.

The B-T-C pipeline is going to start pumping very soon, now there is a huge project waiting to be undertaken which will attempt to transfer the ridiculously rich fields of Khazakhstan and Turkmenistan across the Caspian Sea by-passing the other states straight into the already existing B-T-C pipeline.

Now this will reduce our need for the Russians and Middle East, a democratic, friendly majority Muslim state which is progressive and rapidly advancing country like Turkey is absolutely vital, aswell as this the states it will be transfering between are Turks aswell apart from Georgia so their situation will also improve, the West-East rift could be eased a little.

If you look into this you'll realise why Tukey is more vital then some of us would like to think.

Pushing Turkey away and treating her in this prejeduce way is self-destructive for Europe, its a shame "Old Europe" is so backwards and narrow-minded in its thinking that it cannot see lets say 20-30 years ahead.

The UK should ignore the ignorant pollitics of the EU and persue its own goals to secure its interest in this key region, its already being done by the way and BP is doing alot of work down there.

Let EU have its childish fun, Austria is still crying about Vienna I mean common should we tell Austria "We Remember Hitler", the Nazi's are invading Europe again, their out to destroy us.

If the rest of Europe can forget about their little period of expansion which was 50 years ago why are they still p*ssin their pants about events hundreds of years ago.

And for this Cyprus or Greek Cyprus Turkish Cyprus or Aegean bla bla bla nonsense, its just hilarious, their like old woman bickering non-stop

Just look at the debate, their arguing over points in the Annan Plan.

This is of absolutely no importance or significance to the rest of Europe, its timewasting over such obscure matters.

There is Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots get over it guys, you obviously cannot live together so accept two seperate states and give our heads a rest.

Build friendship with the Turks, were going to need them more than you think in the near future.

Unless we all want another Iran Confused

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 23:40

Im part Irish aswell

You should really look into Turkey's role as a future energy hub its quite amazing.

If you look into this you'll realise why Tukey is more vital then some of us would like to think.

The UK should ignore the ignorant pollitics of the EU and persue its own goals to secure its interest in this key region, its already being done by the way and BP is doing alot of work down there.

Let EU have its childish fun, Austria is still crying about Vienna I mean common should we tell Austria "We Remember Hitler", the Nazi's are invading Europe again, their out to destroy us.

If the rest of Europe can forget about their little period of expansion which was 50 years ago why are they still p*ssin their pants about events hundreds of years ago.

And for this Cyprus or Greek Cyprus Turkish Cyprus or Aegean bla bla bla nonsense, its just hilarious, their like old woman bickering non-stop

Just look at the debate, their arguing over points in the Annan Plan.

This is of absolutely no importance or significance to the rest of Europe, its timewasting over such obscure matters.

There is Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots get over it guys, you obviously cannot live together so accept two seperate states and give our heads a rest.

Build friendship with the Turks, were going to need them more than you think in the near future.

Unless we all want another Iran

Well said, I totally agree on the future importance of such a friendship between Europe and Turkey, hopefully more in Europe will come to see it too.
I also think the Cypruss issue is totally ridiculous. Nobody but Turkey and Greece give a D@#M about Cypruss, it's obvious that it is being used by others in Europe and a slowing technique to stagnate turkish entrance.

Your right about needing the Turks in the future, not just for energy, but also being one of the most stable democracies in the region(i couldn;t think of one besides Israel which is more so) and therefore a natural ally.

As for people worried about the flood of turkish migrants after they enter the EU, i think thats ridiculous. Whether you like it or not, Europe is going to continue to recieve a growing number of immigrants(Africa,middle-east, indian sub-contient, Russia/Ukraine), it's unstoppable and the entrance of Turkey is likely to have only a minor effect on this.

Iran i'm not worried about at all, I think this nuclear issue is being blown way out of proportion by Europe and the States. They are always critisiing Iran for human rights violations etc....when Saudi Arabia(one of the worst human rights violaters in the world) is one of Americas closest ally. Also shouldn't we be looking at North Korea instead of Iran, in my eyes they pose a much bigger threat.

Cheers to being Irish!

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 23:57

Micobei thats where you and I differ. This flood of immigrants is stoppable and should be stopped ASAP.

Whether you like it or not right wing parties are becoming more popular.

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Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 00:18

Micobei thats where you and I differ. This flood of immigrants is stoppable and should be stopped ASAP.

Whether you like it or not right wing parties are becoming more popular.

...............................................................................................................
How do you propose to stop it, a war on immigration is like the war on drugs, unwinable. The only way i could see it stopping is if draconian measures that completely compromised human rights were imposed in Europe....in this day and age i don't see that happening. Also immigration into Europe will be much harder to curb than that into Australia. Australia is much more isolated and Europe offers much more entry points, eg.. through the balkans, moroco-spain, through Russia and Eastern Europe etc...

Yes i know there is a surge in right-wing thinking in Europe, especially on the continent(France, Austia, Netherlands etc..). But unless Europe experiences some horrendos disaster or huge financial difficulty, these hardline parties will not be such a problem. As it was in Germany, the Nazis only came to power during a time of financial crisis and disallusion.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 00:34

So your saying you should let people just waltz into Europe because it cant be stopped????

It can be stopped. Just takes more hardline methods. Im sure most Europeans would welcome the idea.

Not brutal methods of course, just methods to curve the ongoing problem.

Whats the Nazis got to with anything???? People like you just love using Hitler as the scapegoat to villify anything that does not suit your liberal agenda.

Are you Asian by any chance Mico Bei???

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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 00:47

Machine, just wondering, where abouts do you live?

Europe and Australia have to accept migrants, its not a matter of choice. We both have declining birth rates and the effect of rejecting migrants is population decline and economic stagnation.

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Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 00:53

So your saying you should let people just waltz into Europe because it cant be stopped????

It can be stopped. Just takes more hardline methods. Im sure most Europeans would welcome the idea.

Whats the Nazis got to with anything???? People like you just love using Hitler as the scapegoat to villify anything that does not suit your liberal agenda.

Your Asian arent you??? No wonder your all for this sh*t.
................................................................................................................

You didn't answer my question, how do you propose to stop it? Hardline methods, whats does that mean?I already said draconian measures, be specific? You must have some great plan to stop immigration, lets hear it, im sure nobody in europe has thought of it before...

Did i say i was overjoyed about immigration, I have my problems with it like everyone else...however im being realistic here.

Nazis are historys way of showing us where right-wing policies could lead us, Japan is an example of that aswell. I wouldn't go as far to say im a liberal, im not a conservative either, my views differ on various subjects.

No im not Asian, im an Irish person who just happens to be living in Asia at the moment. If i was Asian whatwould be the difference anyways?

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Posted By: mico5bei
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 00:56

haha..i saw your post before you edited it

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Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 06:32

Turkey is simply NOT Europe.

I am against this "degeneration" of European vision.
From a progress towards a new political structure (a federation,or a confederation),EU turns to a loose association of countries, on economical basis only.

On the other hand i totally agree with a "special relationship" of Turkey with EU.This will have benefits for both (esp Turkey of course),and will really help in the democratization of this country.

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Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 07:07

Originally posted by Digenis

Turkey is simply NOT Europe.

What is Europe?

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Posted By: bleda
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 07:17

europe is a `malaka `i think

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Posted By: bleda
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 07:19

i am not a fan eu.

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Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 07:52

Originally posted by bleda

europe is a `malaka `i think

Watch your language boy. Angry

How would u feel if someone told "Turkey is an asshole"?

Its obvious you dont feel European.

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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 08:03

Originally posted by barish

Originally posted by Digenis

Turkey is simply NOT Europe.

What is Europe?

Definitions of Europe:
-the Caroligian Empire
-Christian Europe
-West of the Urals and North of the mediterrainian

Eastern Europe:
-The area conqurered by either Turkey or Russia

I actually think that Europe is an area that is bounded by Turkey and Russia. They define the boundaries of Europe. However if Cyprus is in Europe then Turkey definietly is. Even Lebanon should be in Europe if Cyprus is.

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Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 08:14

Cyprus is inhabited by Greeks the last 3000 years.
Greek civilization is tha basis of european culture.

And after all Cyprus is an island,we can consider it whatever we want-Eurpean,Asian,African Big smile

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 08:30

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Machine, just wondering, where abouts do you live?

Europe and Australia have to accept migrants, its not a matter of choice. We both have declining birth rates and the effect of rejecting migrants is population decline and economic stagnation.

Declining birth rates is a problem that should be handled aswell.

Its not that i hate immigrants or anything like that. In 30 years time what will Australia be????

Im just saying you have to draw the line somewhere thats all. Im sure your country men (????) Omar al Hashim would feel the same if it was vice versa.

Where do i live, mmm does that matter??? Where are your from??? Im guessing Sydney.

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Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 09:00

Originally posted by machine

Declining birth rates is a problem that should be handled aswell.

Propose a solution if you could.

Originally posted by machine

Its not that i hate immigrants or anything like that.

Many people also say that, and there is always a "but" after that statement ... The line of demarcation between being frustrated with the situation with immigrants and being xenophobic/racist can be very murky sometimes.

Originally posted by machine

In 30 years time what will Australia be????

More diverse and more multiethnic. That's the inevitable trend especially in countries that are founded on and by immigrants, like Canada, New Zealand, the United States, and Australia. I hope you don't have a problem with that.

Originally posted by machine

Im just saying you have to draw the line somewhere thats all.

You have to be more specific about WHERE to draw the line and HOW the line should be drawn. Without any concrete proposals, your statements sound simply like slogans of some extreme right-wing parties.

Originally posted by machine

Where do i live, mmm does that matter??? Where are your from??? Im guessing Sydney.

Don't forget you asked Micro5bei whether he's Asian or not.

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Posted By: bleda
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 09:12

Originally posted by Digenis

Originally posted by bleda

europe is a `malaka `i think

Watch your language boy. Angry

How would u feel if someone told "Turkey is an asshole"?

Its obvious you dont feel European.

you feel european LOL

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Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 09:18

Originally posted by bleda

Originally posted by Digenis

Originally posted by bleda

europe is a `malaka `i think

Watch your language boy. Angry

How would u feel if someone told "Turkey is an asshole"?

Its obvious you dont feel European.

you feel european LOL

Why not?
Greece geographically belongs in Europe.
Greek civilization is the basis of European civilization.
Modern Greek state is a real democracy.
My education is based on european ideals.
Greece is a member of EU the last 25 years.

On the other hand u are dreaming silly phantastic pan-turanism bulsh*t,
and if u decide to follow the european dream tell me to give u as a present a nice pair of binoculars...u ll definately need them! LOL

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Posted By: bleda
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 09:24

Originally posted by Digenis

Cyprus is inhabited by Greeks the last 3000 years.
Greek civilization is tha basis of european culture.

And after all Cyprus is an island,we can consider it whatever we want-Eurpean,Asian,African Big smile

cyprus wasnt inhabited last 3000 by greeks csaki

l

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Posted By: bleda
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 09:28

hey patos,
eu is grow old
dont worry about us kids

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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 09:31

Originally posted by Digenis

Why not?
Greece geographically belongs in Europe.
Greek civilization is the basis of European civilization.
Modern Greek state is a real democracy.
My education is based on european ideals.
Greece is a member of EU the last 25 years.

On the other hand u are dreaming silly phantastic pan-turanism bulsh*t,
and if u decide to follow the european dream tell me to give u as a present a nice pair of binoculars...u ll definately need them! LOL

Digenis, as always you are so modest of your nationality, and so lovely and kind and flattering towards us Turks...

Actually to some extent I agree with you about the fact that Turkey should not enter the EU.
I am being increasingly convinced in the advantages of privileged partnership. It would relieve Europe from most of its Islamophobic fears about the Muslim immigration wave from Turkey, while still keeping intact the undisputable economic advantages for both the EU and Turkey, and most importantly it will relieve Turkey of the political costs of EU membership such as yielding more concessions in Cyprus and in the Aegean.

I always believed in the merits of EU membership where Turkey would be respected as an equal candidate like all others, but maybe neither the EU nor Turkey are prepared for this relationship. Angela Merkel might have been right in proposing privileged partnership.

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 11:17

A standoff between the EU and Turkey due to Greek Cypriot objections has just been resolved and the EU-Turkey meeting will go as expected.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5071806.stm

EU foreign ministers have agreed on a common position to start membership talks with Turkey after Cyprus raised last-minute objections.

The agreement came after crisis talks between the Austrian EU presidency and Cyprus on Sunday night and Monday.

Cyprus wanted the EU to press Turkey to recognise Cyprus - divided since 1974 - and open its ports to Cypriot ships.

Though the future looks quite bleak. Reuters reports:

With Cyprus insisting on keeping a sword of Damocles hovering over Turkey's head, ministers warned that the EU "will, if necessary, return to this chapter at an appropriate moment"...

The other 24 EU countries had been bracing for a row with Turkey late this year over its failure to open its ports and airports to traffic from Cyprus but were taken aback when Nicosia decided to raise the stakes now.

Diplomats said Cyprus had achieved its goal of firing a warning shot and locking in an EU commitment to get tough with Turkey if it does not budge later this year.

"This was just a warm-up for the autumn. This was thunder, that will be a real storm," one said.

It becomes clear by every day that unless the EU stops supporting the absolutist demands of the Greek Cypriot administration to represent the whole island, while completely ignoring the Turkish Cypriots, the Turkey EU train will crash over Cyprus ... and Turkey better start preparing and bracing herself for the economic reprecussions from now.

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http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 11:25

Originally posted by flyingzone

Originally posted by machine

Declining birth rates is a problem that should be handled aswell.

Propose a solution if you could.

Ban abortions, its that simple lol.

Originally posted by machine

Its not that i hate immigrants or anything like that.

Who cares. I know im not racist.

Originally posted by machine

In 30 years time what will Australia be????

Whats the benefits though??? Australia was settled mainly by English, Poles, Italians, Germans, Dutch, Irish in the early years.

Alot of them early settlers were made or freely anglicised their names. They were also colonists.

More to the point they became Australians.

Mass immigration creates xenophobia and racism, the one thing your all for can end up working against you. Funny sh*t that.

Theres nothing special about diversity by your terms. Im sure many Aussies can back me up on that one.

Most Aussies couldnt care less about other peoples cultures.

I like certain aspects of diversity, but other aspects i dont like.

America is going have a Mexican majority within the next two decades, whats to love about that????

Originally posted by machine

Im just saying you have to draw the line somewhere thats all.

Where the line should be drawn=Australia stays 90% Aussie.

Yeh stop the right wing bullsh*t. I dont have a political ideology. Im for anything that works, where the goverments care for their own people and give them considerable amounts of freedom.

Originally posted by machine

Where do i live, mmm does that matter??? Where are your from??? Im guessing Sydney.

Don't forget you asked Micro5bei whether he's Asian or not.

And...........................

I love how people always mention Hitler and right wing ideologies when i have said nothing that could be considered as hatred. Damn you people cant help yourselves, without Hitler your arguments would be useless.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 11:27

Explain this privileged partnership Big Turk, please.

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Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 13:36

Originally posted by machine

Ban abortions, its that simple

Wow, you think abortion is the reason for the population decline in Western countries???? This lends so much credibility to the rest of your arguments ...

Originally posted by machine

Whats the benefits though??? Australia was settled mainly by English, Poles, Italians, Germans, Dutch, Irish in the early years.

Alot of them early settlers were made or freely anglicised their names.

So you are making a clear difference between White European immigrants and non-White non-European immigrants? You are making a difference between those who "anglicized" their name and those who don't?

Originally posted by machine

Theres nothing special about diversity by your terms. Im sure many Aussies can back me up on that one.

Most Aussies couldnt care less about other peoples cultures.

Don't speak for other Aussies. Just speak for yourself.

Originally posted by machine

I like certain aspects of diversity, but other aspects i dont like.

Like what?

Originally posted by machine

Where the line should be drawn=Australia stays 90% Aussie.

What do you mean by "90% Aussie"? You mean 90% WHITE Australian?

Originally posted by machine

Yeh stop the right wing bullsh*t. I dont have a political ideology. Im for anything that works, where the goverments care for their own people and give them considerable amounts of freedom.

Maybe you don't know you have an ideology because you don't know enough about anything. You are actually the poster boy for this so-called "right wing bullsh*t" that you pretend you don't care about. You should actually do a little more investigation and find a group like that to join. You will be surprised how much you feel at home there.

Originally posted by machine

I love how people always mention Hitler and right wing ideologies when i have said nothing that could be considered as hatred. Damn you people cant help yourselves, without Hitler your arguments would be useless.

WHO mentioned Hitler????? I certainly did not.

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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 15:01

Explain this privileged partnership Big Turk, please.

EU give us money and we gave nothing back? I dont think we need another privilege, and I dont think EU can offer anything new except money.

Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 15:15

Originally posted by bg_turk

"cypriot Greek administration"
What is this? Confused

I only know "Republic of Cyprus" ,recognized by the United Nations.

ps:As for my "modest comments about my nationality",can u mention me where do u disagree ?
Plz try to speak with arguments than silly desperate yellings and easy funny accusations for nationalism. Smile

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Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 15:20

ah and @Bleda
u need to improve your English.
otherwise its hard for anyone to understand u.

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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 16:00

This is exactly what I mean, Greeks think they can hijack Europe and use it as a platform to attack Turkey because their too cowardly to do it openly and upfront.

Quite frankly if Greece can be allowed into Europe than so can Turkey.

Greek culture and lifestyle does not resemble what we consider as European, they don't share a common musical tradition, royal family tradition, cultural traits, artistic traits.

In reality they're Christian Easterners more precisely Turks even though they'll probobly take this as some kind of insult its the reality. If they converted to Islam they could fit in alot better in the Middle East than in Europe. I've been to Greece and they have been really affected and influenced by the Turks wether they accept it or not.

Greece today is not of major significant importance, all it does is hinder Europe and offer's nothing in return, no energy sources, no pipelines, no energy transfer, no powerfull economy, little strategic importance..............

It would be better for the whole of Europe if the Greeks could keep their xenophobic paranoia and brainwashed hatred of Turks to themselves because there walking on a very dangerous line trying to get Turkey to walk-away all-together which will be terrible for Europe not now but in the future.

Try to look a little ahead of time and put these silly prejeduce's behind you, we don't care about Turkish and Greeks sides having a pissing contest arguing over the most ridiculous of issues and just annoying each other creating tension.

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�What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.�
Albert Pine

Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 16:49

Whatever u say turkish kid ! LOL

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Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 16:52

The paranoikos strikes again LOL

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Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 17:06

Like other threads of a similar nature, this one has again turned ugly due to the extremely annoying fight between the Greek and the Turkish camps. Don't you guys get tired of that?!?

Thread closed.

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