16 Turk Empires
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12507
Printed Date: 25-Apr-2024 at 00:11
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 16 Turk Empires
Posted By: Guests
Subject: 16 Turk Empires
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 17:53
The Great Hun Empire (Büyük Hün İmparatorluğu) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!buyhu.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Mete (Bagatir), bordering Siberia in the North, Tibet-Kashmir in the South, the Pacific Ocean in the East and the Caspian Sea in the West (total area 18,000,000 sq. km). The Chinese called them the Hsiung-Nu. The flag attributed to the Great Hun Empire is an orange-yellow flag with a yellow dragon. Ivan Sache & Jarig Bakker, 4 July 2004 The Western Hun Empire (Batı Hün İmparatorluğu) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!batih.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Panu, covering the area over present day Central Asia. The Empire of Western (Hiung-Nu) Huns lasted from 48 to 304 AD. The ruler had the title of Shan-Yu. This state was under Chinese overlordship. One of the leaders founded the short-lived Earlier Chao state, one of the 16 kingdoms, in Shansi (304-329). The flag attributed to the Western Hun Empire is a plain yellow-orange flag. Ivan Sache & Jarig Bakker, 4 July 2004 The European Hun Empire (Avrupa Hün İmparatorluğu) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!avhun.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Muncuk, Oktar, Rua and Aybars (brothers) covering the area of present day Southern Russia, Romania, Northern Yugoslavia, Hungary, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Southern and Central Germany (total area 4,000,000 sq. km). Gradual decline after 454 AD. This is Attila the Hun's Empire, which caused the Great Migration in Europe and ended with Attila's death in 453 AD. The flag attributed to the European Hun Empire is white with a yellow crowned bird with spread wings. Ivan Sache & Jarig Bakker, 4 July 2004 The White Hun Empire (Ak Hün İmparatorluğu) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!akhun.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Aksuvar (Aksungur) covering half of Northern India, Afghanistan and part of Turkestan (total area 3,500,000 sq. km). The White Huns (a.k.a. Hephthalites, Ephthalites, Hayathelites, Ye-tai, Huna), originating from the Altai Mountains, occupied in the Vth century AD Western Turkestan and disappeared in the second half of the VIIth century. The flag attributed to the White Huns is white with three yellow stars placed vertically in upper hoist. The Göktürk Empire (Göktürk İmparatorluğu) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!goktk.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Bumin Khan (Tumen) in the inaccessible valleys of the Altai Mountains (Ergenekon)(total area 18,000,000 sq. km). The Blue Turks overthrew the Juan-Juan masters ofMongolia in the VIth century AD and established a vast Empire spreading across both eastern and western steppelands to the Volga and beyond. Almost immediately this state split into western and eastern Khanates. They were finally defeated by the http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/tr_imp2.html#uyg - Uighurs in 745. The flag attributed to the Göktürk Empire is blue with a green wolf's head. Ivan Sache & Jarig Bakker, 4 July 2004 The Avar Empire (Avar İmparatorluğu) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!avar.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Bayar Khan, covering the area between the Volga River, Hungary and Bessarabiya. Avars were a Nomadic Turkish or Mongol people which, in the late VIth century AD invaded the plain of Hungary and set up a powerful kingdom, even besieging Constantinople. They declined in the VIIIth century, until defeated by Charlemagne at the end of the VIIIth century. The flag attributed to the Avar Empire is green with a black rider shooting backwards with a bow. Ivan Sache & Jarig Bakker, 4 July 2004 The Hazar Empire (Hazar İmparatorluğu) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!hazar.gif"> "Official description": Founded by the Hazar tribe of Göktürks who migrated to the West and settled in the area stretching from the Caucasian Mountains to the Danube River and to the middle of Russia. Its greatest ruler was Hakan Yusuf. The Khazars were a nomadic people who set up an extensive state in the steppelands east and west of the lower Volga in the VIth century AD. They were converted to Judaism around 800 (i.e., they chose this religion in preference to Islam and Christianity). In the later Xth century the rulers of Kiev broke their power. The flag attributed to the Hazar Empire is blue with an unidentified white device in canton and five white stars arranged in a > pattern. Ivan Sache & Jarig Bakker, 4 July 2004 The Uygur State (Uygur Devleti) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!uygur.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Kutlug Bilgekul Khan, covering Central Asia and northern Mongolia. This state was related to the http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/cn-islam.html - Uyghurs/Uighurs , the Turkic people over near where the Turks originated, in the VIIIth-IXth century in Sinkiang, Western China. The flag attributed to the Uygur state is yellow-orange with two yellow masks (?). The Karahan (Karahanlılar) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!karah.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Saltuk Bugra Khan, covering the Trans-Oxus area including Issyk and Balkash lakes. This was an Empire north of the http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/tr_imp3.html#gha - Ghaznevid Empire , founded by a family of Karluk Turkish descent, which ruled in the X-XIIth centuries, with capitals in Bukhara and Kashgar (Balasaghun). The flag attributed to the Karahan is yellow-orange with an unindentified white device. Ivan Sache & Jarig Bakker, 4 July 2004 The Gazneli (Gazneliler) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!gazne.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Alptekin, covering the area from the Trans-Oxus to the Ganges River, from the shores of the Caspian Sea to the steppes of the Pamir (total area 4,700,000 sq. km). The Empire of the Ghaznavids, founded by Mahmud of Ghazni (ruled 998-1030), had its center in Ghazni, Afghanistan. The flag attributed to the Gazneli is green with a grey crescent in canton and a peacock. Ivan Sache & Jarig Bakker, 4 July 2004 The Great Seljuk Empire (Büyük Selçuk İmparatorluğu) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!selcu.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Selçuk Khan, bordering Balkash and Issyk lakes and Tarim Derya in the East, Aegean and the Mediterrenean shores in the West, Aral Lake, Caspian Sea, Caucasian and the Black Sea in the North and Arabia and Gulf of Oman in the South (total area 10,000,000 sq. km) This refers to the Seljuk Turks, a Muslim dynasty established in what is now eastern Turkey after about 1065 AD. The flag attributed to the Great Seljuk Empire is blue with a white winged and double-headed silhouette and a black bow and arrow. Ivan Sache & Thomas Robinson, 4 July 2004 The Harzemshah (Harzemşahlar) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!harzm.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Kudrettin Mehmet (Harzemshah), covering Persia, Southern Caucasia, Dagestan, Afghanistan and most of Central Asia (total area 5,000,000 sq. km) Khwarizm Shah was the region around http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/uz-khiva.html - Khiva , near Lake Aral. This area is related to the Anushtiginid dynasty, which ruled nearly all of Central Asia till India from 1097-1231, when they were crushed by Dsjingis Khan. The flag attributed to the Harzemshah is a plain black flag. The Golden Horde (Altınordu Devleti) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!altin.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Batur Khan, covering Eastern Europe, the Western Urals, Crimea and the area to the north of the Volga. The Golden Horde, the Mongol Khanate in Russia, was established in the mid-XIIIth century and lasted till the XVth century. The flag attributed to the Golden Horde is white with a red crescent pointing upwards, placed above a grey disk charged with a black symbol. Ivan Sache & Jarig Bakker, 4 July 2004 The Great Timur Empire (Büyük Timur İmparatorluğu) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!timur.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Timur Gurgani bordering the Balkans in the West, the Volga in the North, Indian Ocean in the South and Central Asia in the East
Source: R.F. Tapsell. 1983. Monarchs, Rulers, Dynasties and Kingdoms of the World. Recent studies have shown that this Empire was a Mongol state but official Turkish sources still consider it as Turk. The flag attributed to the Great Timur Empire is blue with three white disks placed 1 + 2 in the middle of the flag. Ivan Sache, Jarig Bakker & Onur Özgün, 4 July 2004
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr_timur.gif"> In Flags of the World 1669-1670, edited by Kl. Sierksma, 1966 http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/bib-sha.html#sie66 - [sie66] is a flag on p. 271 with caption "TAMERLANE". This particular flag nowhere has its counterpart. It is not to be found in the Sketchbook, a Napolitan manuscript from c. 1666&. Tamerlan, le fléau de l'Asie, souloit arborer ses pavillons de trois diverses couleurs, de blanc, de rouge & de noir, couleurs de paix, de sang, & de mort. which translates in English as: Tamerlan, the scourge of Asia, wanted (? provided souloit is indeed vouloit, the ancient form of voulait) to hoist his three-coloured ensigns, white, red and black, colours of peace, blood and death. The full source is: Cleirac, Estienne: Explication des termes de marine employés dans les dicts, ordonances et réglemens de l'admirat ... Jacques Mongiron Millanges, Bordeaux, 1647. -4to, First edition 1636. I suppose that Cleirac based his remarks on the travel-book of Ruy Gonzalez de Clavijo, who travelled to the court of Timur 1403-1406, and wrote: the Historia del gran Tamurlan e itinerario, which appeared in the Hakluyt series in English translation in 1859 (1st series, no. 26). Jarig Bakker, 15 July 2003 The Babür Empire (Babür İmparatorluğu) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr!babur.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Babur Shah, covering Afghanistan and India (total area 2,700,000 sq. km) Babur descended from the Timurids in Fergana, was expelled from there by the Shaibanids and fled to India, which he conquered. He founded the Moghal (or Moghul) dynasty, which ruled from 1526 to 1857. The flag attributed to the Babur Empire is red with a yellow triangle placed all along the fly and pointing to the middle of the hoist. Ivan Sache & Jarig Bakker, 4 July 2004 The Ottoman Empire (Osmanlı İmparatorluğu) http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/t/tr_osman.gif"> "Official description": Founded by Osman, covering Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Arabia, Jordan, Israel, Syria, Iraq, Anatolia, Caucasia, Crimea, Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus (total area 20,000,000 sq. km) The http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/tr-ottom.html - Ottoman Empire preceded the modern Turkish Republic. The flag attributed to the Ottoman Empire is red with a white crescent and eight-pointed star. |
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by Ivan SacheReplies:
Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 19:04
The great Hun Empire, 18 millions, includiying lands around Caspian Sea?? I doubt that comrade 
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Posted By: Suevari
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 03:03
Yeah that is probably all the lands Hun horsemen travelled over, possibly vassal tribes rather than solid Hun territory. ------------- |
Posted By: BigL
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 03:12
And the huns numbered 20,000 when entering Europe 
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Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 03:45
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According with the article of our own page, AE: ../article/index.php?q=The_Xiong_Nu_Empire - http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=The_Xiong_Nu_Empire Probably in their migration they controled the Caspian sea, right, but that was after the expel from the actual Mongolia.The xioungnu empire didn't control the lands to the west of Tarim, i don't find anything about the vassalization of western nomads like the sarmats; so i can't agree with the arguments about the the "Great Hun Empire". bye ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 09:32
 http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/11/21/mongolia.us/index.html - Bush visits with the democratic Mongol Hordes. What does Georgie have in his wallet? He certainly has little credit left with the American people or with world political leadership. All these trips to South America and Asia have accomplished nothing and have only given him a break from the pressures being brought to bear upon him and his buddies at home. He's obviously fallen off the wagon. It is a good thing the Mongolians didn't try to get him up on a hoarse. He would fall of that as well. You know he is afraid of horses.
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Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 09:57
| The Xiong Nu extended about 9 million square miles, with maximum stable territorial size of 7 million square miles. |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 11:29
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The Ottoman Empire included also Albania ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 12:45
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The Avars have been shown to be of Mongolian stock and not Turkic. Many of the areas given in that article are grossly exagerated. Like the Ottoman empire covering 20 million square kilometers, when it was actually closer to 5.5 million! ------------- What is history but a fable agreed upon? Napoleon Bonaparte Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi 
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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 14:07
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Are information about how numeerous were the Huns, Avars, Cumans in Europe?
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 22:51
No, Avars were mainly Turkic stock. Even before migration, Juan juans (Rourans) were mixure of Turkic and Shiwei tribes. That's why Northen Wei (Shiwei) treated them differently. Their leading tribe might be from Shiwei. After migration, they further mixed with the Turkic tribes to form a stock with main Turkic element.
I agree that the article highly exagerated the areas of some empires.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: oghuzkb
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 06:35
Nice collection bro,but I have doubt on this flag,as far as I have known the colour of this flag is red,and the coat is not white but yellow.its possibly a arrow like weapon(reason is some description in the Oghuzname) or tree(?)( reason is : one of the old legends about Uighurs,it is said that 10 kids was born inside a big tree on the top of a small hill close to a village,people there found them and raise them,they were very smart and brave,later they built the Uighur kingdom),anyway it has nine sub- branches which is the symbol of Nine-Oghuz(Tokkuz-oghuz) or Ten-Uighur(On-Uighur) tribes who built Kharanylar kingdom.(related article refer Britannica,knowldge in depth,volume 26) ------------- ALLAH gave us two books---Quran and Nature. ---Jamaliddin Efghany |
by Ivan SachePosted By: oghuzkb
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 06:41
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Karahanylar kingdom founded by Khrahan,Satuk Bugra Khan is descendant of Kharahan.Satuk Bugra khan is famous because of his policy and bravity.He expanded the kingdom and brought Islam to this kingdom. Balasaghun is the summer-capital,Kashgar is the winter-capital.The present location of Balasaghun has not been settled yet,some assume it is Atush which close to Kashgar,most agree that it is the city ruin close to Tokmak in Kyrgzistan.you can also find the location of this city in the Mahmud Kashgary´s map drawn in 1074(?), http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11354 - |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 18:46
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who are those weird people?
How come I don't see Iraq on that map?
And where is big brother Turkey?
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 23:58
lol, Seriously, where do people get these ridiculous figures from? 9 million sq mile is the size of the Soviet Union. Thats way too large, the Xiongnu empire extended from the Liao river in the east to the Irtysh in the west, from lake Baikal in the north to the tarim in the south, a more approximate figure is around 2.5 million sq miles.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 00:26
No, The Rouran ruling family belong to the Dong Hu clan of 苗裔郁久闾, which is Mongolic. Although they probably spoke a Turkic language. The origin of the Rouran is in present day Wu Lan Cha Bu, northeast of the Ordos. The Northern Wei is a Xianbei tribe(Not ShiWei) although its ruling clan is probably more Turkic in its composition. Shi Wei as a tribal name does not exist yet. It was the Rouran which migrated eastwards that formed part of the ShiWei and Qidan tribes. None of these people are of a pure ethnic stock. Xiongnu, Xianbei, Rouran, Tujue, Hui Yin, Mongol, are all political terms which includes a variety of ethnic groups. Do not confuse political groups with modern nationalistic history. It would do the academic field a favour if people actually read about their history and consult the primary accounts as well as scholarly linguistic research instead of making up information.
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 04:11
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I'm sorry for this complexity made. Actually, I said Shiwei to infer the ancesters of Mongols. (Meng wu shi wei), as avars were claimed to be Mongolian stock in the previous post. It's true shiwei were also tribal confederation, whose ancestral link can be traced back to Xian bei, and again to Dong hu. I thought I could make it more clear with more recent terms for mongolians.
We know Turkic or Shiwei were relatively new terms compared to Hunnic or Donghu. No one can deny the intermixing of them between each other. But in general case, they were separate from each other, this is the reason for the usage of the term Dong hu against Hu.
Rouruan did absorb large numbers of Hunnic stock (Proto Turkic), it could be seen from the Tuoba Wei writing that "They are Hunnic in nature".
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: AFG-PaShTuN
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 03:40
On what basis, do the Turks and other historians consider the Ephthalites to be of Turkish origin?
Their capital was located in one of the purest Afghan region, their names had more similarity to Afghan names than to Turkish, yet people still claim that they were Turks. I do not understand why people make such baseless claims. According to Afghan history, they were the ancestors of an Afghan tribe, called Abdali.
Regards ------------- 
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Posted By: AFG-PaShTuN
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 03:40
On what basis, do the Turks and other historians consider the Ephthalites to be of Turkish origin?
Their capital was located in one of the purest Afghan region, their names had more similarity to Afghan names than to Turkish, yet people still claim that they were Turks. I do not understand why people make such baseless claims. According to Afghan history, they were the ancestors of an Afghan tribe, called Abdali.
Regards :D -------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 12:46
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afghan brother get so serious about turk empires... i heard afghan people were originally jewish... |
Posted By: Gloval
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 01:18
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Buddhist, they were originally buddhist. ------------- You don't spread democracy through the barrel of a gun. |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 09:48
Abdali(Eftalit) were called Yetai in Chinese history, and they were clearly classified as one of the Tura tribes along with Uyghur, Oghuz etc Turkic people. That's why my friend.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: Urungu Han
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 05:49
| Avars' khan family was mongol,because of this some historians say avars were a Turk-Mongol empire. |
Posted By: Master_Blaster
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 22:41
That is incorrect. The Afghans were Buddhist prior to their conversion to Islam. If you recall, the Taliban blew up a huge statue of the Buddha was was carved into a mountain over a thousand years ago.
The concept that they may have been a lost tribe of Israel is a myth.
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Posted By: BigL
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 00:02
| Turks drove avars from north of transoxiana,they ethnically were probally iranian |
Posted By: Urungu Han
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 05:03
| Who is avars?Some teorys say mongols and some teorys say Turks.I didn't see any proof about they are Turk or mongol. |
Posted By: The pathan
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 05:21
| U have not mentioned gaznavid and ghuri empires in afghanistan and tughliq dyanasty in india. |
Posted By: Urungu Han
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 07:44
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Yes,Gazneliler. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 07:54
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Afgan in kazak language is refugee.
But who wanted to know about themself more I recomed to reed folloving:
By the legend all of Turk people have one remark on the body call birthmark on down side of the back. It is blue color remark. After one year this blue birthmark leave the baby body. We call this remarks is Ashina Great parents Remark. Other people on the world can not have Turk blood. If you have Ashina remarks you are Turk independently what language you speak. |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 08:30
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And the basis for this belief is based on medical research, ethnocentric desires, or wives tales? Welcome to AE Bori. Hope you don't mind some critical thinking thrown at you! ------------- |
Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 19:29
Yeah there are some just like Iranian Jews they came 1000 BCE but today there are almost no signs of Semitic in Afghans Genatics have proven this. Anyways The Afghan tribe of Yousifzia/Yousifziads are Semitics, they helped Arabs bring Islam into the country, Today most of them live in NWFP, and some in Herat. ------------- |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 06:02
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Did you realy belive those 16 Turkish or State???
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Posted By: Urungu Han
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 06:28
| Why you don't believe? =) |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 08:30
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http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=171101 - http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=171101
Some of these states not Türkish and some of them not even state. İts just propoganda. ------------- |
Posted By: Toluy
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 08:44
What does this link mean?
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 10:59
i also didn't buy the exageration or misdefinition in this article.
But can you enlighen us which of them are not Turkic, and which of them are not even states? AFAIK, they are all Turkic.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 13:13
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Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 13:16
Erkut I agree Its a propoganda either by European or by strong influential Islamic state of Turkey, anyways can you please provide us with an English version of this, I interested in reading it. ------------- |
Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 13:29
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I also don't believe that Turk is an ethnic or any race, its used by European to describe central Asians who came to Turkey and other European regions, during (Central Asian emigration period). Maybe the central Asian did had a few Turks but after mongolian invasion from genitic to language everything was changed.
And the about the origin of Turkish language we can't back very far, Turianians are good example (Mixture of Aryanics and Altics) ------------- |
Posted By: Afsar Beghi
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 14:37
dude do you got proof? you come and tell all this crap, first read a couple history books and base you sayings on facts and not what you think! ------------- Dadaloğlum bir gun kavga kurulur, Oter tufek davlumbazlar vurulur, Nice koç yiğitler yere serilir, Olen ölür kalan sağlar bizimdir! |
Posted By: Urungu Han
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 05:10
Fake?...
 Hehe...
There are very more than 16 empires friend.
Turkish socialist want people to forget their heroity.
You must research.
Nick,ı am laughing to your kidness =)
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Posted By: Savdogar
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 13:57
did you study at school?
oh yes, you study only your "free country"
did you see any mongol in Central Asia???
visit any gateway to Uzbekistan, kid, you will learn about culture-rich country, nothing MONGOLIAN here
 ------------- ...i dont need this... |
Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 21:44
don't get offended by what I said. I do not want anyone to get upset. I am talking history. Mongolians ruled central Asia for 200 years pushing their own language and culture that's why there is connection between Mongolians and central Asians. Besides the mongolian culture we know the fact Mongolians came with 85% of their population and their land were to get dry, they needed food So many moved all over Central Asia.
Mongolian gentics mixture have been found all over in central Asia and around the world. We also know the fact that alot of bastard babies were born. Language changed, regional environment changed, for example big cities were wiped out, alot of men were killed, women were raped.
Uzbekistan 80%
Tajikistan 75%
Iran 20%
Kyrguzstan 89%
Kazakistan 85%
Turkmenistan 25%
Afghanistan 16%
Mongolia 90%
Northern china 65%
Northeast china 50%
I am sorry I do not want to upset and nor am I against anyone.
I have used words like bastard because today its just normal, and its ok. (I Assumed it was ok) back then it wasn't. And I want to talk about the truth, that many people know and many people face and don't wanna accept it because of whatever reason. I understand many people in central asia don't look like mongolians and nor do they look likt Turkey turks or caucasian.
Central Asians have their own looks little from Mongol and little from others, and that's the special part. Just because Americans classified Mongolians as ugly or we don't see faces in media doesn't they really mean they are ugly, So don't be ashamed of your mixture.
Agian I am sorry If I disrespected some people around here. Which I didn't meant to.
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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 06:55
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we all need to make a line between what we think or what we just made up and what is the truth or fact.
So and you have only 5 post and your getting your self in these types of topic I seriously doubt that this is your only name here but I could be wrong see I made a line between what I think and what mght be true.
btw thise numbers are way to high even with the "bastard" chiled there blood would be overun in a few generations the empires of the mongols didn't last that long and if you talk about raping and such the mongol hordes were largely Turkic so your theory don't makes sence.
I can only laugh (not that I'm humored or something)------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 13:27
You can laugh all you want no need to go very far.
Well u my friend As I said Turk is not race its just a word to refer to people with common language and history, the root is still not Known and it will never be known. We know the Fact that Mongolian language is a big part of Altic where the Chinese, Japanese languages also came from. Right!
We Also know that mongolians share with central asians not only language but also the looks.
The big argument is about Turkic language, Is it really part of Altic? Some say no and Most says Yes.
Well it also depends on What "Turkic" language you r talking about there are many (Turkic) languages some share alot and some share less among eachother.
Some Turkic languages share with Europeans languages (Balkens) and some share with Iranian (Aryanic) languages (Uzbeki,Turkey-Turkish) and some share with Altics (Kazak,Kyrgus,mongolian).
Same applies with Turkic looks, They look different as you said Mongolians are also Turkish. So here we have Uzbeki/xinjiang close with Iranic/Mongolian, Turkish Turks (caucasian). Kyrguz/Kazak/mongolians share looks with Altic people like Chinese.
It all all goes back to what I said before Turk is not a race they share somewhat the language and its more about cultural ties. A culture that has been remixed with different cultures, religions, race, and regional history.
------------- |
Posted By: Savdogar
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 14:04
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do you know why you dont understand us and talk about bullsh*t? because you are less mixed.
yes, we are very mixed and this makes our culture rich, genetically strong, attractive and clever.
ask any doctor, what happens if two different nationalities mix up?
their baby is supposed to be clever and physically fit and attractive and too many advantages.
many european people seem to have the SAME faces, SAME lifestyle.
However, in EAST it is totally different, people look different which makes exotic, interesting. eastern culture is very rich.
do you know that eastern people can easily adopt western culture?
the only thing is to accept the values.
however western people can not be like eastern. Values are not enough, you need great experience live for many decades among them.
Nick, East is another world! ------------- ...i dont need this... |
Posted By: Savdogar
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 14:09
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secondly, where did you get that Mongols pushed their culture and language.
they did not bring culture, the language was turkic and persian which existed before mongols.
mongols only raped women and ruled some time.
their influence only genetic.
BTW, central Asia is very large, whom you are poingting? ------------- ...i dont need this... |
Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 14:35
No my friend I don't need to see any doctor. I know what I am saying. Maybe these numbers could high and low among some countries, cause I don't remember. Offcourse I can provide with as many link as you want.
This article is from June 2003, the title of the article is "Genes of history's greatest lover" when they found 16 million people from Asian countries who's Y-chromosomes were virtually identical, indicating a common recent forefather.
Now we do know this happens only among brothers who received their genes from the same father. Its really hard to believe that this all came from one man even if you go over 10 generations. Unless he's some kind of king like Amir of Bokara who had over 100 wives.
Yes we are talking about Temujin named himself Changis Ghan, who raped many women. How many women did his soldiers raped is not known but we know how most Central Asian Turkic people look like so its not hard to find out.
I mean how far can you go, 40 virgin and 40 horses were sacrificed at his funeral, "2,000 people who attended his funeral was massacred by 800 soldiers, who in turn were killed to preserve the secret of his tomb's locale." Still I can't say 100% that Changis Ghan is the father of 16million people but it has all to do with science.
My friend Changis Ghan did more then you can imagine. How many men he killed and how many were raped was all normal part of his daily activity.
And if you still think I am wrong look their facial makeup bring up some pictures from central Asian Uzbek, Chinese, Kazak, mongols, and look at their faces. I am sure you will some kind of connection.
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=200302...05-100301-1566r - http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=200302...05-100301-1566r
http://www.isteve.com/2003_Genes_of_History_Greatest_Lover_Found.htm - http://www.isteve.com/2003_Genes_of_History_Greatest_Lover_Found.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/9976/01genghis.html - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/9976/01genghis.html http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/08/17/tech/main307052.shtml -
http://english.people.com.cn/english/200009/14/eng20000914_50481.html - http://english.people.com.cn/english/200009/14/eng20000914_50481.html
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Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 14:39
I am not pointing at anyone or anything, I am just bring up the facts. ------------- |
Posted By: Afsar Beghi
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 15:06
brothers dont waist your time on this guy he is a bit hardheaded ------------- Dadaloğlum bir gun kavga kurulur, Oter tufek davlumbazlar vurulur, Nice koç yiğitler yere serilir, Olen ölür kalan sağlar bizimdir! |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 18:37
|
nick dude f that nick you punk firstly learn how to spell genghis khan or cengis han or cingis khaan se how many forms of that but I never heard about gangas ghan your ingorance lets me no no better reminds me that not all people in the world are they same or think the same are openminded...... I could go on but you now wtf don't gonna waist my time one troll
stop trolling ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 18:51
xi_tujue my friend, I did not wanted to reply to your common. I just wanted you to know that I did not spelled it like "gangas ghan" its part of the article, maybe you should teach Scientists and journalists how to spell and pronounce Temujin's new name "Changis Ghan". Or maybe you should of asked Temujin why he changed his name to Changis Ghan. ------------- |
Posted By: TheArcher
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 22:23
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Seko, how come you didn't ban this nick dude? Is it because he is an american just like you???
AMERICANS ARE IGNORANT RACISTS...
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Posted By: Urungu Han
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 03:51
I didn't understand correcty because of my poor english,but mongol population was very low ı know.And Today's mongols are mixed with Turkish
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Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 03:59
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I know I shouldn't waste my time with you Nick (ShapurII, Master Blaster,Iranian4life). But the following shows your total ignorance. I think I have the responsibility to teach you something.
Chinese is completely different language from Mongolian or Japanese. Chinese belongs to Sino-Tibetan language system. While Mongolian belongs to Altaic Language. Korean and Japanese are their own.
For the rest, I think you yourself know you are saying bulsh*t from your political view of Ayranism, so no comment.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: Savdogar
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 13:13
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he is ill-minded Nick, your brain is in catastrophic trouble. you also have mongol blood, dude. ------------- ...i dont need this... |
Posted By: Savdogar
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 13:15
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and please note, even before Chengis Khan, turkic people has asiatic looks, rather than caucasoid. Lately they have mixed up.
ALL OF US ARE MIXED ------------- ...i dont need this... |
Posted By: Nick
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 18:01
Mr. Barbar I don't think i said anything bad, I know what iam saying.
Have a look at this and you can see how altics are connected with chinese. I would of post more info if you want.
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2765/turanianuralaltaicsj5.gif - http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2765/turanianuralaltaicsj5.gif ------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 21:38
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**The last page and a half deviated from the main topic. If you want this thread to stay open then go back to discussing it.** ------------- |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 09:45
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Well done Seko.
erkut, I'm still waiting for your response.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: Forgotten
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 01:00
i wonder how many women get raped by teh turkic huns ?! ------------- |
Posted By: Onogur
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 22:04
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All right, is somebody able to tell me what is the right definition of a "Turk" nowdays. Is that somebody who speaks a language of this language group. Is that somebody, most of whose gens are of this ethnic group or that is somebody who leaves in the way the turks live?! Back to the topic now...
In the list of the Turk empires I do not see Great Bulgaria of Khan Kubrat of Dulo with capitol Phanagoria, Volga-Bulgaria with capitol Bolgar, and the Danube Bulgarian empire of Dulo, and later Krum and Asen dynasties. Are they not considered Turk's?!
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Posted By: Onogur
Date Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 00:09
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I agree with you, Xionqnu Hun, that there were a lot more turkic empires, then even mentioned here.
Antioxos, why should the Turks have different blood color?!
It may sound strange, but I think that anybody can equally consider himself a member of more then one ethnic group. Moreover, today almost everybody in the world is mixed. So, everybody, some of whose ancestors are Turkic is a Turk, if he wants to be a Turk.
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Posted By: shinai
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 23:29
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some of these empires only are created by Pan_turkist brains, Turkic is a family of language like germananic group including german and English, can we say that the British empire was agermanic empire? Also the turkic origin of some of this groups like Avars and white hun is not proved.
Spartakus the name of Turk is not only used by Turkish turks , 1/4 of Iranian people use the same term to call themselves,Their language and culture is too diffrent from each other. The iranian turks are called by outsider as azeri, but they are diffrent from the people of northern azerbaijan, so the question who are the Turks will not be answered,
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Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 12:39
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Please continue the discussion about the nature and characteristic of Turkishness http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=18254 - here . Any out-of-topic post will be deleted.
------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 12:52
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Sorry gus i forgot that topic. http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=171101 - http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=171101
Attila'nın Hunları İ.S. değil de İ.Ö. 5. yüzyılın Türk devleti olarak tanıtılınca, ortaya 1000 yıllık bir fark çıkmış. Uygurların 'matbaa tekniği'ni 'keşfettikleri' de söylenmiş. Karahanlılar devletinde halk tamamen Türk ve kısmen İranlıdır denmiş. Bu da ancak Türklere özgü bir marifet olsa gerek. Ayrıca, Altınordu devleti içinde yer alan bir Cuci ulusu varmış.
it says there are too many faults in 16 Turk Empire story. For ex. they said Huns of Atilla lived in BC.5 not AD.5 that means 1000 years of mistake. Or they said Uigurs invented printing. And they said all peopels of Karahan Turk only some of them Iranian. And they said there is Cuci nation in Golden Horde. Coşkun Üçok, listeye girmeyi başaramayan 'Türk devletleri'ni (ancak bir kısmını sığdırabilmiş) sayıyor, bu arada Anadolu Selçuklu Devleti'nin unutulmuş olduğunu belirtiyor
Coskun Ucok says some Turk states forgotten in list. For ex. they didnt add the Anatolian Seldjuks.
------------- |
Posted By: Jagatai Khan
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 16:48
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Yes they forgot the Rum Sultanate, which is the first Turkic-Anatolian(Turkish) state.So the list sucks. ------------- |
Posted By: blue
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 16:50
edit
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 16:57
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Provocation? don't Bulgar's have a right to claim their Bulgar heritage? Volga Bulgaria Bulgar's for example?
Volga Bulgaria is a Turkic area so why do you consider it a provocation?
If they were to count all Turk states and empires the list would go into the hundreds, I think they picked the most powerfull ones. I wonder why the Mamlukes arn't considered?
Seljuk's are already in the list, Seljuk of the Rum are a part of it.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: blue
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 17:12
| Bulgars were an Iranian tribe.The Volga Bulgars were Mongolidised and Turkicified so today they are righfully called tatars cos they have very very little to do with the original Bulgars! |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 17:25
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Oh please...this is a history forum, not national propoganda forum, the only reason you find it hard to accept is due to modern day Bulgaria-Ottoman relations. Bulgar's were part of the "Ogurs". Before the Bulgar's there were Finnish tribes in the Volga Bulgaria region not Iranian ones. The Bulgar's of Volga Bulgaria are Turkic, were Turkic go there today if you like its living proof. Today's "Bulgaria" had some Bulgar rulers and adopted the name Bulgar, they today don't speak Bulgar's language. Bulgars are called Tatars, all settled Turkic muslim people's are called Tatars by Russians, what a silly argument to try and use. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: blue
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 17:39
yeah exactly,history is my hobby.So by estimating all the existing archeological and written sources i came to the conclusion that Bulgars were most probably of Iranian origin.Not that i have something agaist the Turkic theory,it just lacks real arguments.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 17:45
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Hah, like the Iranian theory has any credibility, it's a joke to historians outside of Bulgaria, nothing but pseudo-history with relying on very few credible sources and facts. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: blue
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 17:55
The same can be said about the Turkic theory,don't you think,so go figure
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Posted By: bleda
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 20:32
 your hobby------------- |
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 20:34
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Guyz if you go on like that, we won't get anywhere: give your sources or quite the dogfight!
------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 09:06
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The whole idea of Bulgar's according to some Bulgarians in Bulgaria being anything but Turkic stems from their Ottoman-Bulgaria relations. It has nothing to do with history, if there was no Ottoman-Bulgaria conflict, it woudn't bother them if Bulgar's were Turkic or not. Historically speaking, all major historians and research into the matter conclusively shows the Bulgars were and still are Turkic, there is nothing to argue about and the only one's who are so sensitive and care so much are characters like "Blue".
Prior to Bulgars, Finnish tribes lived in Volga Bulgaria, then the Ogur Turkic confederacy which included Bulgars migrated to the region, the Finnish tribes were influenced by the Turkic one's, the region adopted a Turkic language and from then on the Bulgar's grew in the region. Later some migrated to the Balkans others stayed in Volga Bulgaria. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: AyKurt
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 09:52
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The evidence supporting a Turkic origin of the Bulgars (Volga Bulgars) are actually quite plenty.
They were ruled by Khans. Other noble titles were Kavkan, Tarkan and Boritarkan. They also had Boylars.
They worshipped the Turkic god Tangra.
There alphabet was similar to Orkhon script. the words found on Bulgar stone inscriptions were Turkic. Also some inscriptions were in Greek or Slavic letters and corroborate the Turkic origin of these words.
The present day Turkic people who are closest, geographically and linguistically, to the ancient Bulgars are the Chuvash.
The only historians who argue an Iranian origin are Nationalist Bulgaarian historians. ------------- Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
Posted By: blue
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 12:48
There are inscriptions from 3 Bulgar rulers of the pre Christianisation period,where their title is mentioned.It's canasuvigi,not khan.
There are no written sources about the religion of the Bulgars.
Only fragments of 1(one) stone inscription is found near a pagan temple with the word taggra.
There are no inscriptions found in Bulgaria written with the so called
Orkhon script.There are around 100 stone inscripions found all written in Greek(except 2) written with Greek letters in a language that has both Iranian and Turkic words (mainly titles as Kavkan, Tarkan,Boritarkan) and that's actually the main evidence of the supporters of the Turkic theory.
Probably.And Chuvash is the most distinctive of the Turkic languages and thus cannot be understood by speakers of other Turkic tongues,strange isn't it?.And many scientists doubt that it's Turkic language at all.
There are many more arguments against the Turkic theory such as the names of Bulgars(many of them of Iranian origin) and so on.
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Posted By: shinai
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 13:06
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Bulgars,eh, I guess when you asked them what is their origin , most of them would say they are slav, not iranic or Turkic. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 13:11
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Blue
There are inscriptions from 3 Bulgar rulers of the pre Christianisation period
So? your saying prior to Christianity they were Turkic then after turned Iranic.
Plus the main Bulgar population always stayed in Volga Bulgaria. A branch adopted Islam and the Chuvash adopted Christianity.
Blue
There are no written sources about the religion of the Bulgars.
Not only were they Tengrist, they also followed the Turkic calender.
What did that wise Bulgar Khan say..."We helped the Christians many times but they have forgetten this but Tangri knows"
Blue
There are no inscriptions found in Bulgaria written with the so called
Orkhon script.
Try, Volga Bulgaria. Blue
Probably.And Chuvash is the most distinctive of the Turkic languages and thus cannot be understood by speakers of other Turkic tongues,strange isn't it?.
Nope, there is nothing strange.
1. Its a Turkic language.
2. The Chuvash Turks lived in relative isolation to other Turkic peoples as they migrated North.
3. As they were Christian it further caused them to be more seperate from their majority muslim brethren.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: blue
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 13:14
What Im saying is that the recorded title of the Bulgar rulers is canasuvigi not khan.What's the translation of canasuvigi in any Turkic language by the way?
It's an inscription of Perssian/Pressian(strange name for a Turkic ruler don't you think) in Greek and it's " but God see" no Tengri there.
Turkic calendar?It's the ancient Chinese calendar
Again you sound too hypocratical trying to find excuses why Chuvash is so different from the rest of the Turkic languages.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 14:26
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Blue
What Im saying is that the recorded title of the Bulgar rulers is canasuvigi not khan.
Well who was Khan Kubrat, Khan Batbayan, Khan Krum, Khan Omurtag etc etc why are you denying this?
Blue
Turkic calendar?It's the ancient Chinese calendar
Nope its the Turkic calender.
Bllue
Again you sound too hypocratical trying to find excuses why Chuvash is so different from the rest of the Turkic languages.
Hypocritical? are you ok
 Chuvash is a Turkic not Iranic so its not doing much for your alternate psuedo-history is it.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Onogur
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 20:09
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Guys, please, stop arguing and repeating yourself. You are both partly right.
There are still two theories for the origin of the Bulgars - Turkic and Iranian.
The Iranian theory (which is a new theory) relies on the several words in bulgarian with iranian origin, on the few grammar differences with the Turks, and similarities with Iranian, on some rituals and habits. Also, some authors called Bulgars - Sarmantians. But it is still not completely proven and remains a theory.
On other hand, the Turk theory is better proven - the bulgar language was a distinct branch of the Turk language, with some words of Ugro-Finn and Iranian origin. Most of the habits, rituals, way of life, values were Turkic. Moreover, the members of Dulo dynasty after Kubrat pretended that they are direct descendents of Attila, and it is very possible according to the fact, that the Kubrat's uncle Organa was of Ermy clan (also Octar's and Rua's clan, Attila's predecessors).
About the title of the Bulgar rulers - logically it was Khan (Bulldog), BUT according to several sources as "Nominalia of the Bulgarian Khans", some were also called or adopted the title "Knyaz" which is of Slavic origin. Here comes the interesting part - "subigi" means "highest", so Khan Subigi means Highest Khan. Khansubigi is really not far away from "Kanasubigi" (Blue)....
... especially, if we are trying to write it in present day English! The mislead comes with the salvic title "Knyaz" that might be also reffered to Kanas-ubigi, but the second part of the title is "subigi", not "ubigi". Heh... the San-graal or the Sang-raal?!  It becomes even more complicated, because the politics of Krum dynasty during the First Bulgarian empire were to involve the Slav population into the administration and the politics. And here comes the title Knyaz. Willingly or not that was the beginning of the "slavonising" of Danube Bulgaria. "A hug more formidable then a sword"... as one of my favorite authors says about the Slavs.
Bulldog, I have an impresion that in your opinion we feel bad about Bulgars being of Turk origin, because of the Osmans or Ottomans being of a Turk origin too. Am I wrong? Or it is more possible that there are not two different words in English for a citizen of Turkey and a member of the Turkic ethnic group and it may sound offensive to some people, their origin to be considered Turk (of Turkey)? It is probably pretty much the same as to have the same word for German and Germanic - then how does it sound "Oh, you are from England?! Then you are of German origin!"
  No offense, I am just trying to explain where the problem is. |
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 22:52
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Thanks Onogur, great post! Just one thing you're confusing theory and hypothesis. A theory being "proved" or to be correct supported. ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 04:07
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This is what I found in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hun - http:///en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hun regarding the white Huns whom are claimed to have been turkic in this thread. The origins of the Hephthalites are uncertain. Many theories have been discussed, of which the " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European - Indo-European " and " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic - Turkic " theories are the most prominent ones. For many years scholars suggested that they were possibly of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_people - Tibetan or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic - Turkic stock http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hun#_note-0 - [3] , and it seems likely that at least some groups amongst the Hephthalites were Turkic-speakers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hun#_note-1 - [4] . In 1959 Kazuo Enoki put forward the hypothesis that they were probably http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples - East Iranians as some sources indicated that they were originally from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokharestan - Tokharestan , which is known to have been inhabited by Iranian peoples in antiquity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hun#_note-2 - [5] . Richard Frye is cautiously accepting of Enoki's hypothesis, whilst at the same time stressing that the Hephthalites "were probably a mixed horde". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hun#_note-3 - [6] More recently Xavier Tremblay's very detailed examination of surviving Hephthalite personal names has indicated that Enoki's hypothesis that they were East Iranian may well be correct, but the matter remains unresolved in present scholarship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hun#_note-4 - [7] Our earliest information about the Ephthalites comes from the Chinese chronicles, in which it is stated that they were originally a tribe of the great http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi - Yuezhi (and thus related to their http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European - Indo-European neighbours), living to the north of the Great Wall, and in subjection to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rouran - Juan-Juan , as were also the Turks at one time. According to these chronicles, their original name was Hoa or Hoa-tun; subsequently they styled themselves Ye-tha-i-li-to after the name of their royal family, or more briefly Ye-tha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hun#_note-oldBritanica - [8] . Most scholars today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hun#_note-5 - [9] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hun#_note-Iranica1 - [10] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hun#_note-Iranica-2 - [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hun#_note-EI - [11] regard the Hephthalites - or at least their ruling elite - as speakers of an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages - Eastern Iranian language or possibly another http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages - Indo-European language such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharian_languages - Tocharian . Various theories about their origins are documented by ancient Chinese chroniclers, as well as by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procopius - Procopius of Caesarea :
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Posted By: AyKurt
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 17:03
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Blue, there is a r/z divide in the Turkic languages with Chuvash belonging to R Turkic with most other Turkic languages being Z Turkic. Bulgaric Turkic broke away from the main grouping of Turkic peoples in Inner Asia at an early date, probably before the 1st Century. Old Turkic is Z but also has some R Turkic in it so its debatable which one was original. Probably a bit of both. If you understand the main sound shifts in Chuvash then its Turkic origin becomes better understood. Other changes over time include y > j > s and l > r. For example Turkic Yil becomes Chuvash ser. Volga Bulgarian jür is Old Turkic yuz. Its certainly not true that some "scientists" doubt its a Turkic language. It most definately is. There were as well as the inscriptions evidence of Bulgar Turkic on the tombs of Bulgars. An example would be djiaty djör. Applying the sound shifts i just mentioned this would be yede yuz in Common Turkic. 700.
I should also mention that some of these sound shifts happen in Common Turkic too. For example the y > j shift happens in Kypchak Turkic.
A well known occurence of z>r is the Turkic Oguz - Ogur.
The Bulgars established a federation which included the Kutrigur/Utigur and Onok-undur (sometimes called unogundur). The Utigur split after being defeated by the Avars and those under Avar rule became known as Kutrigur and those free kept the name Utogur.
These Onogur Bulgars would most likely also include Finnic tribes living in the Volga region since their wide distribution and ancient history in that land is unquestionable. Also its likely that remnants of the Sarmatians would have been incorporated too. This only means that the Bulgars were not exclusively Turkic, although the core Turkic but also including other peoples, including possibly Iranic speakers. However what Inner Eurasian state wasn't multiethnic? A bad comparison
would be like the Roman Empire. Noone denies it was a Latin based Empire but it included many non latins and even some of their leaders were of Germanic or Gothic origin.Onogur - About the title of the Bulgar rulers - logically it was Khan (Bulldog), BUT according to several sources as "Nominalia of the Bulgarian Khans", some were also called or adopted the title "Knyaz" which is of Slavic origin.
Wasnt the title Knyaz adopted by Asparukh and his descendants, Asparukh being the founder of Danube Bulgaria?
A Bulgar continuum still exists to this day in the Volga region. Among the Volga Tatars the name Bulgar was used until the 19th Century.
"Present Kazan and Siberian Tatars, bearing the khalats in the streets of the Russian cities, call themselves Bulgarlyk 'Bulgardom' " [Grigorjev V.V., 1836, 24]
I remember talking with a Kazan Tatar some time ago and he explained that even today among some of the older rural Tatars, they still call themselves Bulgar.
The two main towns of the Great Bulgaria were Bulgar and Suvar (water people). in the tenth century, because of the sound shifts i mentioned earlier, became Suvas.
The Mari still today call the Volga Tatars Suvas, and the linguistic descendents of the Bulgars derive their ethnonym from Suvas. Chuvash.
Evidently the true descendants of the Bulgars are to be found still in the Volga region.
What concerns me is why do some (of course not all and presumably not the majority) Bulgarians (Danubians  ) wish to rewrite history with their revisionist nonsense. If they are so ashamed of the Turkic origin of the Bulgars then why not just petition to change the name of their country to Slavia or Danubia or somethin like that? It does get rediculous when claims of originating in the Pamirs or Hindu Kush because of some words of probable Iranic origin when the most likely reason would be remnant Sarmatians or the Onogur warriors who fought for the Persians.------------- Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
Posted By: Onogur
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 22:07
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AyKurt,
I almost completely agree with what you have wrote!
I wanted to add most of this information but my post was going to become too long.
Anyway, Bulgarians, of the present day Bulgaria are not ashamed of the Turkic origin of the Bulgars. May be there are some people who might be... but there are usually people who just want to be different or unique..... everywhere.. ....
 I even can say that we are proud of being descendents of the Bulgars and proud of the fact that our country is named Bulgaria. About the title "knyaz".... yes, Khan Asparukh was the first recorded to have simultaniously the title "knyaz", but there are some suggestions that his father - Kubrat/Kurt was the first Bulgar Khan who used it, because of the relations with the Slavs. The main political aim of the most of Bulgar Khans was "the absorbing" of the Slavs. Anyway, the outcome is that Bulgars were pretty much assimilated by the Slavs in Bulgaria (present day Bulgaria). Still, the founders were the Bulgars!
I just want to add something about the relations between the Avars and the Bulgars. Both people were of common origin, and the social structure was very similar.
The wars between them, and may even include the Khazars here, could be seen as another type of "civil war".... may sound strange, but all of them were struggles between certain ruling clans for a domination over the "steppe" people - the very people whose ancestors formed the Hunnic military alliance few centuries before that. Anyway, this is only my personal opinion.
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2007 at 17:55
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I see hot discussion here. Could not pass it
Actually there are some more solid Bulgars had turkic element but those that AyKurt have shown are wrong. Here are one by one.
Their rullers were not Khans. Before using it as a proof find proof for that statement first.
Yes, those titles seem to be Turkic. Does it surprise you after 100 and something years under Avar rule (or co-state if you wish) and some 100 years of Turkic Khanate rule? Another thing to think about -- some of Russian knjazes were called Kagans but Russian tribes are clearly not Turkic are they? Of course if we don't keep in mind some of the modern scholars suggesting that Rus were initially Turks but then became traitors of Turkic world and the Great Steppe itself. I am not joking, this is what I read in some modern books. Well, for our dear friend Bulldog, probably this is not as much bull sh..t as for me
No, this one you may explain as turkic but may not. They are present in many other slavonic nations some of them very far from Balkans and the great steppe.
Proofs for that are not solid at all. Much more proofs I can post for the fact that many of them worshiped international god God and His son Jesus.
This alphabeth is similar to many other alphabeths around the world.
Yes, some of them were Turkic. Others (including their names) are Greek, Slavonic, Latin, Iranian, Thracian and even latinized form of Slavonic. The last one is something weird and I don't actually understand what the hell does that mean but this is how it is.
The present day Chuvash are not closed geographically to Turkic people. I mean not only. Instead they are surrounded by Slavonic and Finish people.
That kind of crap does not deserve to be commented. But you should keep in mind that the only historians who created Turkic version of Bulgar origin are the same "Nationalistic Bulgaarian" historians. All others just believe us. Don't believe me? Spend some time reading old (late 19th early 20th century) articles about Bulgarian history and you will see who they cite.
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2007 at 18:05
No, it is easier to protect name of our state from pan turkist claims
That is right. It is rediculous indeed. How about searching the origin of Bulgars in the north of Black Sea from around 4 centuries AD, where they are plased slightly later by dfifferent sources? The only problem is that you can hardly find many Turkic tribes of that time in that region. Well, you may find Sarmatian culture I don't think it is less rediculous to try to make Scythian and Sarmatian tribes turkic. ------------- . |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2007 at 18:16
Hm.. There are much more theories.
Proven by whom? How much s this some?
Name some of those which you believe to be Turkic but are not met in Sarmatian tribes. Or even in Moesi
Hold on, how did you know that the second part is subigi not ubigi? as far as I remember there were no spaces between words. So, how are you going to determine whether it was Kanes Ubigi or Kane Subigi or Kanesubigi?
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2007 at 18:26
And the last moment. In several sources Bulgarians invaded Macedonia and Thrace invaded are described as "seeking of their fathers cities (or lands)". Who are those Turkic fathers living in Macedonia and Thrace?  ------------- . |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 07:48
Nope.The bulgars calendar was unique and closer to the chinese one.It was far more complicated and accurate than the turkic. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 14:34
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Nope it was the Turkic calender as they were Turkic. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 17:14
So, resuming the whole discussion:
1. Bulgars are Turkic since they had Turkic calendar.
2. The calendar was Turkic since they were Turkic tribe.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 20:21
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I don't understand the problem, Bulgars were and those in Volga Bulgaria still are Turkic. Bulgars were Turkic since they formed as Bulgars, prior to their entry to the Volga-Bulgaria region the area was inhabbitted by Finish-Uralic tribes who were most probobly assimilated by the new-commers. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 07:30
Can is Kan--Khan--Han.
Suvigi-subegi is the highest military title equals to General in the early Turkic military structure.
AFAIK, Volga Bulghars used "Yiltiwar" --- "Iltebar" as those of the eastern Oghur alliances (Uyghurs), before they became Qaghans.
Why did they used this Chinese Calendar? What's the difference between Turkic lunar calendar?
It is very normal. They were the earliest Turkic migrants, they have strong contact with neighbouring groups.
The burdon is on your side to prove that Chuvash isn't a Turkic language.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 07:35
Typical revisionist.
How do you interprete the title then?
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 07:43
And aslo from famous historians, and encyclopedias.
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9018006/Bulgar - http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9018006/Bulgar
also called Bulgarian, member of a people known in eastern European history during the Middle Ages. One branch of this people was an ancestor of the modern Bulgarians.
The Bulgars probably originated as a http://www.britannica.com/memberlogin - http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9073847/Turkic-peoples - Turkic tribe of Central Asia and arrived in the European steppe west of the Volga River with the Huns about AD 370; retreating with the Huns, they resettled about 460 in an arc of country north and
Galinus: "Surmata have small eyes, so they can see far."
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |
Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 07:48
It is not odd at all. My grandfather came here and expelled others built some houses, then the others came to expel my father, and I started fighting to take my father's land.
------------- Either make a history or become a history. |