Georgia's Armenians under attack
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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11981
Printed Date: 25-Apr-2024 at 19:48
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Topic: Georgia's Armenians under attack
Posted By: mamikon
Subject: Georgia's Armenians under attack
Date Posted: 18-May-2006 at 23:04
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There are more than 300,000 Armenians residing in Georgia. Most of them
are residing in the Samtskhe Javakheti region of Georgia, where they
make roughly 90% of the population. This is also the site of a Russian
Military base, which has provided countless jobs for the Armenian
Resident and is currently relocating from Georgia to Armenia due to the
request of the Georgian Government. The talks of removal of the Russian base reached its peak last fall. In October (2005) leaflets were circulated in the Armenian regions, saying another "Genocide was on the way" and "Remember 1915...". There was a rumor that the Russians were spreading he leaflets (the leaflets were in Russian) so the Armenians would support the Russian military base and increase its longevity on the Georgian soil. Months have passed from October, the Russian base has started to relocate. The first Russian convoys have already reached a base in Gyumri, Armenia. The threats meanwhile have resurfaced. Quoting from a news site: "May 16 threatening leaflets in Russian were disseminated in Akhalkalaki, the center of Samtskhe-Javakheti region of Georgia mostly populated by Armenians. The leaflets that have images of a crescent and star and are signed by so-called Akhaltsikhe Liberation Brigade, literally say, Time has come to pay for our humiliation. Recall 1915. Gevorgyan croaked, Rastakyan is the next. We remind that Gevorgyan was the surname of a young man, killed in Tsalka this March, while Rastakyan is the distorted surname of co-chair of Virk unregistered party David Rstakyan." the article is continued here: http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=18033 - http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=18033 What are the Armenians supposed to do? they are not getting support from the Georgian government. any ideas? |
Replies:
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 18-May-2006 at 23:23
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The Azeri-Georgian-Turkish pipeline passes through the Armenian populated areas of Georgia. Azerbaijan and Turkey don't have good relations with Armenia, and it seems to me that Georgia isn't any different, especially in recent years. It is in their interests to remove the Armenians from their native lands and resettle Metskhet Turks in Samtskhe-Javakheti. Most Western countries would naturally support anything that makes the pipeline's life easier. Unfortunately, the Armenians of Georgia can't do much peacefully, especially when they are facing this kind of opposition. |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 06:15
| Georgia also persecutes its Ossetian minority. |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 07:11
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and the greeks yes there are pontians that live near the armenian border ------------- 
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 08:27
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Somebody is playing ethnic games in a troubled region ... I would not be surprised if Russia was behind all of this. After all its influence in the region has been always to antagonize the locals against each other. It is probably another attempt to destabilize the democratic changes in Georgia by creating unrest among its Armenian minority.
I think Georgie should take strong actions against those that distributed these leaflets and reaffirm its comittment to protects its minorities. All Georgian citizens must stand united against Russian imperial games. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 08:35
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How are the russians at fault here? Im sure they give the Ossest a helping hand, but i hardly think they have anything to do in the other parts of georgia, where the armeniians + pontians live. In the end Georgians are responsble for what happens in Georgia and how they treat their minorities. -------------
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 08:38
Are you suggesting that Armenians should use violance? ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 08:41
Russian policy in Caucasus has awlays been divide and rule.
Russia would love too see pro-American western oriented Georgia plunge into ethnic strife. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 08:56
as for the armenians, they should stand their ground. Extremist want them to leave, so they should make sure they stay. Here i found another article on this http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/civilsociety/articles/eav033006.shtml - problem "Discontent is rising within Georgias Armenian community, the countrys largest ethnic minority, driven by complaints concerning the central governments language policy, as well as perceptions of discrimination. The building tension between ethnic Armenians and Georgian government officials has been linked to recent rioting and violence. A March 9 altercation between ethnic Armenians and Svans in the Kvemo Kartli village of Tsalka led to the death of 24-year-old Gevork Gevorkian, an ethnic Armenian, and incited a mob to raid a local administrative building. Two days later, in response to Gevorkians death, several hundred protestors in Akhalkalaki, a predominantly ethnic Armenian town in the neighboring region of Samtskhe-Javakheti, stormed the local branch of Tbilisi State University, a court building and the office of a Georgian Orthodox Church archbishop. Responding to the violence, Parliament Speaker Nino Burjanadze on March 13 placed the blame on "serious forces, who [are] try[ing] to trigger destabilization in this region," the Civil Georgia web site reported. Some ethnic minorities in the region have a different interpretation. "The murder of the Armenian [Gevork Gevorkian] wasnt a political act, it was criminal," suggested Makhare Matsukov, an Akhalkalaki business leader and ethnic Greek. "But politics created the situation that exists in Tsalka and the situation here in Akhalkalaki." The greeks have almost completely left that area (tskala) in the last 15 years or so.  "Once numbering 30,000, Tsalkas Greek population is now about 1,500 and shrinking. A mass exodus occurred during the 1990s when thousands of families relocated to Greece for work. As Greeks left, natural disaster victims from the northern Georgian region of Svaneti and the western Black Sea region of Achara began to move into vacant homes. Squatters took over many abandoned houses; pillagers ransacked others. As economic conditions in Tsalka worsened, and the towns crime rate increased, remaining villagers (12,000 Armenians, 1,500 Azeris and 1,500 Greeks) started to view their "guests" as a threat." But the armenians problems are more than just a bit of trouble if your read the whole thing you will see that its broader than just one bashing or some pamphlets. Its lack of minorty rights, crap economics and a fledging democracy that has its L plates on. I hope they learn the georgians learn quickly for the armenians sake. "The need to have a working knowledge of Georgian lies at the heart of most complaints. Georgian government statistics on election registration estimate the number of ethnic Armenians in Akhalkalaki at 95.8 percent of the towns population of 10,000. (Local Armenians put the number at 98 percent.) Since the entire region of Samtskhe-Javakheti functions primarily in Armenian, few Akhalkalaki residents speak Georgian. At the same time, Russian is frequently spoken thanks to the presence of a former Russian military base. "We cant get good jobs unless we speak Georgian, but how can you learn Georgian so well when youre 30 or 40 years old?" said a resident of Ninotsminda, a nearby village not far from the Armenian border. "If we cant get work here, we will continue to move to Russia for work, if we can get visas." Unofficial estimates put the number of Javakheti men who work seasonally in Russia at 80 percent"http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/civilsociety/articles/eav033006.shtml - link (again) -------------
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 09:01
sounds like the USA in the balkans, britain in cyprus well like basically any big power play. The georgians are in control of how they behave, read my article ^, its a broader issue than just emperial stiring. Nothing is as simple and easy as you put it  -------------
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 09:04
This is awlays a problem but minorities simply have to learn to deal with it. The study of Armenian should be certainly encouraged, but all should be obliged to know Georgian so that the state can function as one integral unit. I mean what would happen if Turks in Greece and Bulgaria refused to learn the official languages? Would they be able to get jobs? I suggested that Turkish should be made compulsory for Turks in Bulgaria in the BG section, and they called me seperatist and what not - I do not think Armenians in Georgia can ask for a special treatment of their language. They simply need to integrate into Georgia better - then it will be much harder to create such provocations as this leaflet scandal. Asking that Armenian be made the official language for a part of Georgia is simply equivalent to a form of seperatism. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 17:32
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Its not just the language thats a problem, its
the fact that the Georgian government has left this region completely
underdeveloped. Smaller minority regions not only have more money being
spent on them by the Georgian government, but they even have their own
autonomous districts such as Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Ajaria. Why
would you grant much smaller minorities autonomy, and then ignore your
largest minority? The Armenians are not even asking to be an autonomous
district, they just want to be treated as part of the Republic of
Georgia. I agree that in any country, minorities have to make a solid attempt to adapt. If this was the only barrier for the Armenians then there wouldn't be much of a problem, its the fact that the Georgian government has disregarded this whole region as being part of their country. Not only are they ignoring their largest minority, theyre going to move in foreigners to dilute the problem as opposed to solving it. Thats just going to create more problems, and all the Caucasus needs is one spark and the whole region will ignite into war. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 18:06
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1993: http://ostv.ru/play.php?oc=66 - http://ostv.ru/play.php?oc=66
Russia is not responsible for Georgians killing Ossetians at Zaur.
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Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 18:06
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Georgia is very fragile with its many ethnic minorities, so it cannot function this way. It can only be a successful country if it becomes a federation.
I don't think that the ethnic Georgians will agree. |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 18:10
Ok, I opened the link and started seeing dead bodies ... I cant always handle looking at dead bodies you know. Can you breifly descibe what happen to the Ossetians at Zaur? ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 18:21
It is already very fragile, and you want to make it even more fragile. Maybe you are hoping that once Samtskhe-Javakheti becomes autonomous, the Armenians there will follow the lead of their brethern in Nagorno-Karabakh?
I can understand that the Armenians in Georgia may be in a difficult sitation as a minority, but creating distrubance and trying to weaken Georgia will not serve their interests - it might serve the interests of Russia and those that seek confronation and bloodshed, but certainly not the interests of the ordinary Georgians citizens of whatever ethnic background.
The interests if Armenian minority will be best served by a strong, democratic Georgia comitted to human rights and fully anchored with the European values - and for this they need to be patient. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 18:24
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It was an incident where, fleeing the figthing, South Ossetian refugees were intercepted in Zaal and killed. Information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia
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Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 19:59
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"The interests if Armenian minority will be best
served by a strong, democratic Georgia comitted to human rights and
fully anchored with the European values - and for this they need to be
patient. " What kind of a government comitted to human rights and fully anchored with the European values would move Turks from 1000 miles away to a place overwhelmingly Armenian, disregarding the animosity between the two people? especailly when now you have that stupid Liberation Brigade jostling a Turkish flag and saying " we are going kill you all" ------------- |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 20:25
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Yup. If they cared, they wouldn't be moving
foreigners into a region just to dilute the region's cries for
equality. Apparently Georgian government officials have never heard of
any conflicts between Turks and Armenians, especially the one that
happened only a decade ago right across their border....Idiots. Instead of using up money to move foreigners into the region, why don't they just spend that money to build that regions infrastructure. I don't know, just a thought. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 21:05
what would satisfy you mamikon? what do you want georgia to do? maybe seal the region of to turks so that they cannot enter? should the fact that armenians live there preculde turks from settling there - after all is the region not part of their own country too?
the stupid liberation brigade should be dealt with by the authorities. good night. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 21:10
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by the way turkey should protest against the use of its flag by this whatever brigade ... if things continue like this soon they will start associating it with the nazi swastika. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 21:23
| What would you say if the Bulgarian government started disturbing the geographic demographics of Bulgaria by moving Slavs into Turk areas? More tot he point what do you think of the Chinese dilution of Uigar populations? |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 19-May-2006 at 23:17
i think your missing the point, firstly the article is mentioning the moving of outsiders into the region, secondly the language issue is for the older inhabitants and thirdly its about the overal poverty in that area. Do you have any idea how difficult it can be for a poor 40 yr (and older) man who needs to provide for their families today, and ontop has to learn a new language? and you simply ask for patiance? i wonder in all that poverty and imported crime how they have any excuses for not attending and paying for language classes.  BG_Turk, no matter whats put infront of you, you become a paraniod excuser/accuser..... ....with Armenian sepratist and meddling russians im suprised you havent blamed the greeks yet! But since your second guessing all of these to fit into your own personal assumtions and bias to this issue, im sure you will also stick with 'democratic' georgia being the victim here too.  -------------
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 20-May-2006 at 07:28
They had in the 1980s moved many Bulgarians in the Turkish and Pomak regions (read Technology of the Revival Porcess thread) and tried to spread Turks into the other regions of the country, no major distrubances broke out. We try to live peacefully with them. Before the Revival process there were areas where Turks formed an absolute majority, now that's no longer the case.
Many of the Bulgarians in Kardjali that I know are from other parts of the country.
I do because my Grandparents had to undergo exactly that in the 60s-70s and they still managed to provide for the family.
Have I blamed the Armenians? I have unequivocally condemned this leaflet distribution. But the Armenian mobs storming a municipal building, eventhough it was after a provocation, is not a particularly praiseworthy action either. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 20-May-2006 at 10:32
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The problem is that for about 80 years of the
region being under Georgian SSR the Georgian Communist government has failed to
integrate the Armenian society. Note that the language spoken everywhere was
Russian, thus the Armenians did not really need to learn Georgian. The Georgian
local government had to help those people learn Georgian, which they have
failed even though the ample amount of time given. Moreover, it has removed the only job supply in the region, the Russian military base. Promises were made that jobs would be given to those who have lost them, none were fulfilled. "what would satisfy you mamikon? what do you want georgia to do? maybe seal the region of to turks so that they cannot enter? should the fact that armenians live there preculde turks from settling there - after all is the region not part of their own country too?" There is difference between individuals immigrating to the region (...even though its awfully poor) and between inserting through artifical means a thousands of people. Even if these thousand people were of other ethnicity than Turks you still would create animosity between the local population and the newcomers. But you are moving Turks...no offense but I believe most of those people dislike Turks. This would definitely a small scale war in the region, unless the Georgian government sends troops to suppress one group, which would lead to a large scale and yipeee.... I want the Georgian government to stop forced population movement, stop all promises and actually develop the region. If they cant develop ther region, if the people have to continue living in poverty, then they dont deserve to rule the region, and an autonomy is necessary. ------------- |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 20-May-2006 at 11:15
How is it forced? Do the turks who are "forced" to move there complain about the Georgian government?
Indeed it should, and that is why I said that people need to be patient. It cant just develop the region overnight, and it needs the cooperation of its citizens of Armenian origin to achieve that.
Poverty cannot be justification for seperatism. Armenians in Georgia face no persecution or discrimination, they cannot ask for seperation or autonomy from Georgia. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 20-May-2006 at 15:43
Sometimes being ignored and left in poverty is worse than discrimination. Its basically discrimination without any effort. I'm not saying they should separate, I'm just saying in some instances its basically the same thing.
Its forced because if they were to immigrate there, they'd do it on their own instead of through a pre-planned government program... What a way to make the Armenians of Georgia feel part of the country...their whole region is ignored while the Georgian government prioritizes its spending on a group of people who have never even been to Georgia  And its funny how they only decided to do this when the Armenians started complaining about their region being left behind....
You know, it only gets funnier, when they created the Abkhazian autonomous district, Abkhazians formed only 18% of the population (Kartvelians were 45% in Abkhazia...these numbers are from the 1989 census btw). When they created the South Ossetian autonomous district, Ossetians were 66% of the population. Armenians form a 95% majority in their district, and not only do they not have any autonomy, they are thrown in the back-seat. Plus, now that theres more people being moved into the district, there are more people hence less resources-per-person. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |