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The Impossibility of God?

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
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Topic: The Impossibility of God?
Posted By: The Guardian
Subject: The Impossibility of God?
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 13:54

I recently read a post saying that Gods existence is impossible, could people try and explain that please?  I would love to hear them prove it.



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It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up.
                             &nb


Replies:
Posted By: Pieinsky
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 15:03
Define God please.

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Posted By: Roadkill
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 17:26
 -I'll have a stab at this. I do not like to divulge information from an unfinished work(My Manifesto on the stupidity of Religion) but just for fun I am willing to do so now.

 -If God exists(I'm discussing monotheistic religion on this arguement though it can be applied to all) why is his existence geographically hindered? Take christendom for instance; if God exists why did the knowledge of him have to spread from the middle east? Why didn't an Indian(Native American to be PC) become a prophet? It's quite absurd that an omnipotent god would find a few mountains or a sea get in the way of his word... This is true of any religion and so it applies just as much to any religion.

 -Let me wrap this one up with some words of wisdom from myself; To believe is never difficult. Choosing not to believe when everyone else does, that is difficult.


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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 18:12
A very good point RoadKill, i add to this one morefact, if the God exists, so he must be an ignorant God and not omnicient how the religions claim. I mean why should he say Jesus is the son of the God in the bible and deny this in Quran?

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Posted By: Roadkill
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 18:14
 -Thank you Aylar... I mean Maziar.

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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 18:57

To answer this frequently-asked question, I will just quote what our wise friend Tobodai says in one of his posts:

Originally posted by Tobodai

There sill has been no proof and the burden of proof isnt on me.  Why should U prove there is no god anymore than I should disprove the crazy homeless guys ranting about smurfs being real.  WHo has time to disprove every crazy notion?  No, the crazy notions must be the ones that are proven so that acually inelligent and creative people can figure out how to make real society better.

Originally posted by Maziar

A very good point RoadKill, i add to this one morefact, if the God exists, so he must be an ignorant God and not omnicient how the religions claim. I mean why should he say Jesus is the son of the God in the bible and deny this in Quran?



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Posted By: Imperator Invictus
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 19:01
I think God as described by most religion is an impossibility because they are strongly reflective of the cultures that raised the characteristic of god. In other words, God in religion (from a secular point of view) is a literary creation of a culture.

On the other hand, there are elements in this universe that humans cannot logically understand. So using the non-cultural non-religious definition of god, I think God is absolute.

Posted By: Roadkill
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 19:05
[QUOTE=Imperator Invictus] On the other hand, there are elements in this universe that humans cannot logically understand.[QUOTE]

 -No, there are elements in this universe that we haven't yet found the logical reason for. This does not mean that there isn't any.


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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 19:14

Ask God.



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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)

Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 19:34
Originally posted by Spartakus

Ask God.

you do and tell me the answer



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Posted By: Le Renard
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 21:59
Originally posted by Maziar

Originally posted by Spartakus

Ask God.

you do and tell me the answer

I have... he is real and not a figment of someone's imagination.



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"History repeats itself because nobody listened the first time."

Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 22:13
Originally posted by Le Renard

Originally posted by Maziar

Originally posted by Spartakus

Ask God.

you do and tell me the answer

I have... he is real and not a figment of someone's imagination.

Did you contact him by email?



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Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 23:07
Originally posted by The Guardian

I recently read a post saying that Gods existence is impossible, could people try and explain that please?  I would love to hear them prove it.


Nobody can prove that "Gods existence is impossible"; unless we give a very narrow definition to "God" and "existence"


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Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 23:45

Originally posted by Maziar

A very good point RoadKill, i add to this one morefact, if the God exists, so he must be an ignorant God and not omnicient how the religions claim. I mean why should he say Jesus is the son of the God in the bible and deny this in Quran?

      Maybe because these books were written, compiled, edited. added to, reedited, and all over a span of 2-3,000 years, by men?



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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.

Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 15-May-2006 at 00:08
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by Maziar

A very good point RoadKill, i add to this one morefact, if the God exists, so he must be an ignorant God and not omnicient how the religions claim. I mean why should he say Jesus is the son of the God in the bible and deny this in Quran?

      Maybe because these books were written, compiled, edited. added to, reedited, and all over a span of 2-3,000 years, by men?

For sure another proof for there is no God.



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Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 15-May-2006 at 00:17
Originally posted by Maziar

Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by Maziar

A very good point RoadKill, i add to this one morefact, if the God exists, so he must be an ignorant God and not omnicient how the religions claim. I mean why should he say Jesus is the son of the God in the bible and deny this in Quran?

      Maybe because these books were written, compiled, edited. added to, reedited, and all over a span of 2-3,000 years, by men?

For sure another proof for there is no God.


So there are more than one proofs that there is no God. Damn, I must be really stupid to not be able to comprehent those proofs.
Maziar, even if you prove that all the known religions are wrong, that doesn't prove that there is no God.


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Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 15-May-2006 at 04:50
ofcourse there is a god it doesnt matter how you call Allah, Jesus ,Tengri, God ..... And the proof is big bang. All space become with a big bang and the god is the creator of that.  

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Posted By: Quetzalcoatl
Date Posted: 15-May-2006 at 07:59

Originally posted by Roadkill

 -I'll have a stab at this. I do not like to divulge information from an unfinished work(My Manifesto on the stupidity of Religion) but just for fun I am willing to do so now.

 -If God exists(I'm discussing monotheistic religion on this arguement though it can be applied to all) why is his existence geographically hindered? Take christendom for instance; if God exists why did the knowledge of him have to spread from the middle east? Why didn't an Indian(Native American to be PC) become a prophet? It's quite absurd that an omnipotent god would find a few mountains or a sea get in the way of his word... This is true of any religion and so it applies just as much to any religion.

 -Let me wrap this one up with some words of wisdom from myself; To believe is never difficult. Choosing not to believe when everyone else does, that is difficult.

 

I fear your explanation is devoid of all logic for numerous reasons. What make you think "God" needs to initiate contact with man rather than the opposite.

Of course one needs to define God to get into this argument. Is God the Judaeo-christian God, then no such God exists.



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Posted By: Roadkill
Date Posted: 15-May-2006 at 08:35
"I fear your explanation is devoid of all logic for numerous reasons. What make you think "God" needs to initiate contact with man rather than the opposite."

 -Well, maybe it's because if he didn't they wouldn't know he existed. Do not pull my logic into question for it is completely sane. Even if man needed to initiate contact with God it would still not explain why that God was geographically challanged.


 -Just an comment independent of your post: During this debate I've seen about eight new beliefs being founded. Everybody's going around saying "yes this is how "---------" works but I don't do this or that" in order to dodge an arguement. Either you're part of a religion or you're not so make up your minds people! I cannot argue against your own personal preferences as I cannot possibly know them. If you've custom built your own religion then i won't discuss it.


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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-May-2006 at 09:14
It can be proven that a secular, non-religious explanation for the existence of religion is to be preferred above a religous explanation, one that attributes the existance of religion to the exitance ofgod(s):

Let's assume that religion exists because god(s) exist.  Again there are two options. 1.) either all religions exist because of god(s) or 2.) only one religion exists because of god(s) and the others should be explained on a secular way. I think it's quite clear that option 2. is undefendable. That would mean that people use other standards to judge their own religion than they use to judge others, and there's no way one could justify that a priori.

So the other option is that all religions exist because of god(s). Again there are two options. Either A.) the god(s) of one religion, the one that is presumably true have caused all religions, including the ones that are not true or B.) every religion is caused by their own god(s) and is equally true. Again it is clear that option B. makes no sense. It is simply not possible for all religions to be true, because they contradict each other. It is for example not possible that both Christianity and Hindiusm are true. That leaves only option A, but that one makes no sense as well. This would mean that the god of, say Christianity, have also caused hindus to be hindu and muslims to be muslim. This of course is quite ridiculous, why would a god cause people to believe in non-existing gods? Apart from that, this is ad hoc and still doesn't prove one religion is true, because all religions can claim the same thing.

Sometimes people try to avoid all this by claiming that religion is outside reason, and that the existance of god(s) cannot be proven rationally. This is a postion that is also endorsed by most agnostics. This, however, means that you can't attribute any characteristics that can be observed empirically or rationally. This makes the word 'god' meaningless. So if you claim religion is extrarational, the phrase "God exists" is as meaningless as "Asdf exists".

in a scheme:







Originally posted by erkut

ofcourse there is a god it doesnt matter how you call Allah, Jesus ,Tengri, God ..... And the proof is big bang. All space become with a big bang and the god is the creator of that.  

and who is the creator of god?


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Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 15-May-2006 at 09:21
Originally posted by erkut

ofcourse there is a god it doesnt matter how you call Allah, Jesus ,Tengri, God ..... And the proof is big bang. All space become with a big bang and the god is the creator of that.  


At last -a unifying theory that summons up Christianity,Islam,Buddhism,Kabala and Science!



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Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 11:36
Originally posted by Neoptolemos

Originally posted by Maziar

Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by Maziar

A very good point RoadKill, i add to this one morefact, if the God exists, so he must be an ignorant God and not omnicient how the religions claim. I mean why should he say Jesus is the son of the God in the bible and deny this in Quran?

      Maybe because these books were written, compiled, edited. added to, reedited, and all over a span of 2-3,000 years, by men?

For sure another proof for there is no God.


So there are more than one proofs that there is no God. Damn, I must be really stupid to not be able to comprehent those proofs.
Maziar, even if you prove that all the known religions are wrong, that doesn't prove that there is no God.
Thanks alot for correcting me, yes my English sucks, but i can make my English better than you could make better your way of thinkingWink


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Posted By: leprechaun
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 12:05
its all aload of do-hickey, but people like to have something to believe in, if not religion than what? 

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Leprechaun!!!

Posted By: Pieinsky
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 12:09
its all aload of do-hickey, but people like to have something to believe in, if not religion than what? 

Leprechauns, I thought I read you believe in them?

 
do-hickey
 
???Confused


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Posted By: leprechaun
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 12:14
wat have leprechauns got to do wit religion pieinsky? if that is ure real name???


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Leprechaun!!!

Posted By: Pieinsky
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 12:16

It is my real name bitch!

 

 Leprechauns are Gods Fool!



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Posted By: leprechaun
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 12:19
maybe they are to u....  and wat wud this leprechaun religion b called????

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Leprechaun!!!

Posted By: Pieinsky
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 12:23

Lepricology, the scientific worship  of leprechauns

 

Your expressing that I’m mad, you’re the one that said that penguins are intending on taking over the world,


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Posted By: leprechaun
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 12:27
yeh but thats true, they are starting to decrease in skool but i tink they might b movin across town, we best watch out for them, the goverment are not takin my plea for help seriously, they believe the penguins are not a threat, and that they will bring in tourists, we hve to rebel, if not us then who?        who?

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Leprechaun!!!

Posted By: Pieinsky
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 12:42
How has the climate and other obvious factors not made the penguin species (not including those in Zoos) completely extinct within Ireland by now, I remember you saying they were in the school since last year.  I think your neurotic heathen!
 
Defend your so called sanity!


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Posted By: leprechaun
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 12:44
they hve built an immune system, at 1st yes, many did die, but they evolved, and sum now are bright green, they are developing there speech also, they plan to negotiate with our leader...

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Leprechaun!!!

Posted By: Pieinsky
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 12:49

negotiate over what, they would have miniscule power even if they did exist, they are no threat to us

Then again with the size of our military, the penguins may overthrow our present government, and then who know what would happen, oh sh*t I’m starting to believe this out of fear of consequence of not believing so.

 

 



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Posted By: leprechaun
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 12:52
have u forgotton, they have weapons remember...

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Leprechaun!!!

Posted By: Pieinsky
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 12:53

what their wings, That's the only weopen they have! 

Poppycock I say!


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 13:00
This topic is about the imossibility of God, not about leprechauns or penguins. New nonsensical posts will be removed

Posted By: leprechaun
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 13:03
im sry, i dnt understand 'imossibility'.......  oh and lighten up grandma

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Leprechaun!!!

Posted By: Pieinsky
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 13:04

leprechaun if you wish to continue this debate over penguins write in the tavern-posting category.



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Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 16-May-2006 at 18:13
@ Maziar

1. Your English is fine, me thinks.
2. What do you know about my way of thinking. I didn't even say if I believe that God exists or if religions are right or wrong. I simply stated that there is no proof, unswering to the question of the original poster and then to you who said there are proofs.

Now, in order for you to learn sth about my way of thinking, I'll tell you that I believe that God exists. Don't ask me to define God, though; I'll keep this for my self. I may be right or I may be wrong, I don't know. It's just my personal belief.

I give you the right to be right, that's my way of thinking. You don't seem to do the same with me, thoughWink


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Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 00:00

When you talk to god that is called "prayer", when your god talks to you it is called schizophrenia!

Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 00:37
Originally posted by Epikoureios

When you talk to god that is called "prayer", when your god talks to you it is called schizophrenia!
LOL very good one indeed.


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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.

Posted By: Greek Hoplite
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 01:59
Originally posted by Maziar

I mean why should he say Jesus is the son of the God in the bible and deny this in Quran?
 
Only Jesus has risen from the dead and won death and its the son of God.


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My blog
http://mankap.blogspot.com/

Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 02:48
Nobody was God or his son. It is just simple humans rising to abnormal heights due to their abilities.

One thing that I don't like is that some person claims or his supporters claim that he is the God or son so nobody else can be the same. There cannot be one God Because belief cannot be centralised or unified under one command.




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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn

Posted By: Greek Hoplite
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 02:54
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Nobody was God or his son. It is just simple humans rising to abnormal heights due to their abilities.
 
You have the right to believe everything you want ,but Jesus is the son of God and has risen from the dead and done all these for human salvationThumbs Up


 
 


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My blog
http://mankap.blogspot.com/

Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 06:00
Originally posted by Greek Hoplite

Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Nobody was God or his son. It is just simple humans rising to abnormal heights due to their abilities.
 
You have the right to believe everything you want ,but Jesus is the son of God and has risen from the dead and done all these for human salvationThumbs Up


 
 


I respect your opinion. In this respect, the Indian religion is the best. Any good person can attain the status of god by virtue of his deeds. There is nothing such as an all powerful, infalliable god.

If you look at my signature, it signifies the essence of the Indian religion. You yourself are the God, Universe, Your fate & the master of destiny.




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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn

Posted By: Greek Hoplite
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 06:56
The main difference that make the God of Christians the only real god, is that His Son has risen from dead, that's the most important in christianity.That s the diifference from all other religions which are fictions of humans.But as i said everyone believes in everything he wantsThumbs Up.

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My blog
http://mankap.blogspot.com/

Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 08:32
He rose from the dead. What after that ? 

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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn

Posted By: jayeshks
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 11:28
A friend of mine once told me about a statistical approach to the subject.  It deals with just looking at simple incentive/gain probabilities for any event, like for example in gambling, you would choose whether to place a bet based on the size of the possible winnings involved.  Well with God, the off chance that God does exist, the reward/gain is infinite and so no matter what the odds, an infinite gain makes it worth betting on every time. 

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Once you relinquish your freedom for the sake of "understood necessity,"...you cede your claim to the truth. - Heda Margolius Kovaly

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 12:22
Originally posted by jayeshks

A friend of mine once told me about a statistical approach to the subject.  It deals with just looking at simple incentive/gain probabilities for any event, like for example in gambling, you would choose whether to place a bet based on the size of the possible winnings involved.  Well with God, the off chance that God does exist, the reward/gain is infinite and so no matter what the odds, an infinite gain makes it worth betting on every time. 

next problem: there are hundreds of religions. Which one should you follow? The one with the nicest heaven and worst hell?

Posted By: The Philosopher
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 12:57
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

He rose from the dead. What after that ? 

He ascended into heavan.    

Posted By: LilLou
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 19:42

I do believe their is a god there is much evidence that scientists cannot deny.

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 19:46
Originally posted by LilLou

I do believe their is a god there is much evidence that scientists cannot deny.

like...

Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 19:59
People can always deny everything, after all there are still some people who deny the obvious and insist that the world is 4000 years old.

As far as I'm concerned the damning proof (no pun intended) is the Quran. I do not believe that could be written by a person now, let alone 1400 years ago.

Originally posted by Greek Hoplite

You have the right to believe everything you want ,but Jesus is the son of God and has risen from the dead and done all these for human salvation

I don't mean any offense by this but I have to point out, according to Christianity, God condemned all mankind to hell then had a son, sent him to earth where he was tourtured and slowly killed by crucifiction so that god could forgive mankind - or the specific part that believed it happened - from hell, and this is supposed to be a symbol of all things good?

Why exactly did god require the death by torture of his "son"?

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Posted By: Emperor Barbarossa
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 20:08
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Originally posted by LilLou

I do believe their is a god there is much evidence that scientists cannot deny.

like...

Well, it is a common Christian concept that they have "so much proof" for their claims, when they really have none.


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Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 21:09
If Jesus was recenrly killed in the electric chair, would all Christians wear little golden electric chairs around their necks?

Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 21:10
Originally posted by Epikoureios

If Jesus was recently killed in the electric chair, would all Christians wear little golden electric chairs around their necks?

Posted By: The Philosopher
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 21:56
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

People can always deny everything, after all there are still some people who deny the obvious and insist that the world is 4000 years old.As far as I'm concerned the damning proof (no pun intended) is the Quran. I do not believe that could be written by a person now, let alone 1400 years ago.
Originally posted by Greek Hoplite

You have the right to believe everything you want ,but Jesus is the son of God and has risen from the dead and done all these for human salvation
I don't mean any offense by this but I have to point out, according to Christianity, God condemned all mankind to hell then had a son, sent him to earth where he was tourtured and slowly killed by crucifiction so that god could forgive mankind - or the specific part that believed it happened - from hell, and this is supposed to be a symbol of all things good?Why exactly did god require the death by torture of his "son"?

because it was to pay the price for mans sins, so that now we can pray to God freely, without having to make a blood sacrifice, like in the old testament. the price has already been paid with Gods sons' blood.    

Posted By: LilLou
Date Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 21:57
there is too much evidence too proof that god exists, our universe contains too much order for our existence to have been created out of chaos the world is too complex beyond our imaginations here are some examples,  discoveries in astronomy have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe did have a beggining, there was a moment of creation, advances in molecular biology have revealed vast amounts of information in each cell they found thousands of designed machines,which tells us that there is a higher intelligence that we don't know of. so ask yourself if u you believe in right or wrong, then ask yourself why who gave you your conscience?? why does it exist............ 
 
does that give u answers

Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 02:05
Originally posted by The Philosopher

Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

He rose from the dead. What after that ? 

He ascended into heavan.    


But that is where he would have gone immediately after the first death. Why does he have to come back from the heaven for some days & go back. Their are also a lot of similiar stories in Indian religion, but I have still not been able to iunderstand their logic. may be I am wrong in looking for logic in a matter such  as a faith.


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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn

Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 03:13
I don't mean any offense by this but I have to point out, according to Christianity, God condemned all mankind to hell then had a son, sent him to earth where he was tourtured and slowly killed by crucifiction so that god could forgive mankind - or the specific part that believed it happened - from hell, and this is supposed to be a symbol of all things good?Why exactly did god require the death by torture of his "son"?

because it was to pay the price for mans sins, so that now we can pray to God freely, without having to make a blood sacrifice, like in the old testament. the price has already been paid with Gods sons' blood.   

That was regurgitation of a memorised answer. What does that sentence actually mean (I can't figure it out)?

there is too much evidence too proof that god exists, our universe contains too much order for our existence to have been created out of chaos the world is too complex beyond our imaginations here are some examples,  discoveries in astronomy have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe did have a beggining, there was a moment of creation, advances in molecular biology have revealed vast amounts of information in each cell they found thousands of designed machines,which tells us that there is a higher intelligence that we don't know of. so ask yourself if u you believe in right or wrong, then ask yourself why who gave you your conscience?? why does it exist............

While I agree with you, I'll point out that everybody knows this already and you not about to convince anyone with it. In addition it means abosolutely nothing to proving a religion correct, it mearly picks at flaws in atheism. Just because ideology X is wrong, it doesn't mean Y is right. We don't live in a bipolar world.



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Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 06:09
Originally posted by LilLou

there is too much evidence too proof that god exists, our universe contains too much order for our existence to have been created out of chaos the world is too complex beyond our imaginations here are some examples,  discoveries in astronomy have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe did have a beggining, there was a moment of creation, advances in molecular biology have revealed vast amounts of information in each cell they found thousands of designed machines,which tells us that there is a higher intelligence that we don't know of. so ask yourself if u you believe in right or wrong, then ask yourself why who gave you your conscience?? why does it exist............ 
 
does that give u answers
 
That's religious (i)logic. It's nonsense to state that if 1+1=2 then God exists. The "order" of the Universe you seem to find so wonderful is actually very chaotic.
By means of logic, if God exists (mainly speaking of the abrahmanic God) then, to be complete It must also contain Its nonexistence. So God exists and also doesn't exist. Therefore either you have a God which is limited by it's own existence or you have a God that is unlimited therefore you either and simultaneously have and don't have a God. So if you chose to believe that God only exists you chose to limit the unlimited God. If you decide that God doesn't exist you limit yourself to an existence that isn't complete by denying the posibility of the existance of a God. It's the choice of completness or consistency. Believing in God is usually inconsistent. Atheists are generally consistent.
Other "gods" (like hindu) are just superior entities. Calling them gods it's like worshipping vampires or werewolves. I would rather think of them as the next step to achieve in our development.
So the (im)posibility of God is rather irrelevant fo a mere human being. Though talking about is always interesting.

Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 06:43
Cezar, for consistency of the belief in God you may want to read Plantinga's theistic theories. And also this very interesting debate on iidb.org:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=104663 - http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=104663
 

Posted By: LilLou
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 07:29
im not trying to convince anyone, or much proof of a religion, im just saying that it's obvious that there is a higher intelligence then us humans.

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 07:31
Originally posted by LilLou

im not trying to convince anyone, or much proof of a religion, im just saying that it's obvious that there is a higher intelligence then us humans.

For a Christian it is. But your arguments only make sense if you already are Christian.

Posted By: LilLou
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 08:09

Its harder to point my argument through religion so i will try my best through a scientific point of view...................

U see most things are contingent(they depend on something else for their existence) and thats absolutely one necessary thing, from the fact that we recognize various degrees of perfection from one being whom we have our ideas of perfection. by contrast, for the believer in god the ultimate reality is consious, creative and life. Look around the world and everything you find is nothing to be nothing but but one great machine, subdivided into infinite number of lesser machines to a degree where human understanding cannot explain, a painter always leaves a mark on his artwork, this higher intelligence left a mark in the cosmos.
don't take this as christian point of view.

Posted By: Greek Hoplite
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 09:02
Originally posted by Epikoureios

If Jesus was recenrly killed in the electric chair, would all Christians wear little golden electric chairs around their necks?
 
With this you said you have insulted millions of people( if you already have not recognized it).


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My blog
http://mankap.blogspot.com/

Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 17:37
As a Hellene I was insulted too when I found out the following:
 
(Summarized from Vlasis Rassias’ book "Demolish Them..")

(Published in Greek, Athens 1994, Diipetes Editions, ISBN 960-85311-3-6)

(All dates "era vulgaris" = Christian Era)

314: Immediately after its full legalization, the Christian Church attacks the Gentiles: The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

324: Emperor Constantine declares Christianism as the only official Religion of the Roman Empire. In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of the God Apollo and tortures the pagan priests to death. He also evicts all the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic Temples.

326: Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of the God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of the Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc.

330: Emperor Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the pagan Temples of Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.

335: Emperor Constantine sacks many pagan Temples of Minor Asia and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of "all magicians and soothsayers". Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus.

341: Emperor Flavius Julius Constantius persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

346: New large-scale persecutions against the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as. "magician".

353: An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifices and "idols".

354: A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of pagan priests.

354: A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the pagan Temples and the execution of all "idolaters". First burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are being organized next to the closed pagan Temples. A major part of the holy architecture of the Gentiles turns to lime.

357: Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).

359: In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organize the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

361 to 363: Religious tolerance and restoration of the pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.

363: Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).

364: Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch.

364: An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination ("sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi curiositas"). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of the pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in pagan rituals, even private ones.

365: An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids the Gentile officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.

370: Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of the Gentiles in all the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other Gentiles, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire. All the friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.

372: Emperor Valens orders the governor of Minor Asia to exterminate all the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom.

373: New prohibition of all Divination methods. The term "pagan" (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the Christians to lessen the Gentiles.

375: The Temple of God Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the Christians.

380: On the 27th of February, Christianism becomes the exclusive Religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that "all the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter". The non-Christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind". In another edict Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe to the Christian God and outlaws all disagreements with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the pagan Temples of his area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the Temple of Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 years old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.

381: On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all their rights the Christians that return back to the pagan Religion. In all the Eastern Empire the pagan Temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even the simple visits to the Temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the Temple of Goddess Aphrodite is turned to brothel and the Temples of Sun and Artemis to stables.

382: "Hellelu-jah" (Glory to Yahweh) is imposed in the Christian mass.

384: Emperor Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated Christian, to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the Temples of the Gentiles in Northern Greece and Minor Asia.

385 to 388: Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop ("Saint") Marcellus with his gangs scour the countryside and sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic Temples, shrines and altars. Among others they destroy the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Gentiles from all sides of the Empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

386: Emperor Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of the sacked pagan Temples.

388: Public talks on religious subjects are also outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous Epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius with the hope that the few remaining Hellenic Temples will be respected and spared.

389 to 390: All non-Christian date-methods are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood the cities of the Middle East and Egypt and destroy statues, altars, Libraries and pagan Temples and lynch the Gentiles. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a Christian church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesque the pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images.

391: On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to pagan Temples but also looking at the vandalized statues. New heavy persecutions all around the Empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Gentiles, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights they lock themselves inside the fortified Temple of God Serapis (The Serapeion). After a violent siege, the Christians take over the building, demolish it, burn its famous Library and profane the cult images.

392: On 8th November, the Emperor Theodosius outlaws all the non-Christian rituals and names them "superstitions of the Gentiles" (gentilicia superstitio). New full scale persecutions against the Gentiles. The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and the priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop ("Saint") Epiphanius and "Saint" Tychon destroy almost all the Temples of the island and exterminate thousands of Gentiles. The local Mysteries of Goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius’ edict declares: "the ones that won’t obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living in that island". The Gentiles revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis, Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.

393: The Pythian Games, the Aktia Games and the Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic "idolatry". The Christians sack the Temples of Olympia.

395: Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) cause new persecutions against the Gentiles. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of the baptized Goths (led by Alarich) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by Christian monks the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable Gentile Hellenes and burn down all the Temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396: On 7th December, a new edict by Emperor Arcadius orders that paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining pagan priests and hierophants.

397: "Demolish them!". Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all the still standing pagan Temples to be demolished.

398: The Fourth Church Council of Carthage prohibits to everybody, including to the Christian bishops, the study of the books of the Gentiles. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the pagan Temples of his city (except 9 of them that remain active).

399: With a new edict (13th of July) Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all the still standing pagan Temples, mainly in the countryside, to be immediately demolished.

400: Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of the God Dionysus in Vesai and baptizes all the Gentiles of this area.

401: The Christian mob of Carthage lynches Gentiles and destroys Temples and "idols". In Gaza too, the local bishop (also a."Saint") Porphyrius sends his followers to lynch Gentiles and to demolish the remaining 9 still active Temples of the city. The 15th Council of Chalkedon orders all the Christians that still keep good relations with their gentile relatives to be excommunicated (even after their death).

405: John Chrysostom sends hordes of gray dressed monks armed with clubs and iron bars to destroy the "idols" in all the cities of Palestine.

406: John Chrysostom collects funds from rich Christian women to financially support the demolition of the Hellenic Temples. In Ephessus he orders the destruction of the famous Temple of Goddess Artemis. In Salamis, Cyprus, the "Saints" Epiphanius and Eutychius continue the persecutions of the Gentiles and the total destruction of their Temples and sanctuaries.

407: A new edict outlaws once more all the non-Christian acts of worship.

408: The Emperor of the Western Empire Honorius and the Emperor of the Eastern Empire Arcadius order together all the sculptures of the pagan Temples to be either destroyed or to be taken away. Private ownership of pagan sculpture is also outlawed. The local bishops lead new heavy persecutions against the Gentiles and new book burning. The judges that have pity for the Gentiles are also persecuted. "Saint" Augustine massacres hundreds of protesting pagans in Calama, Algeria.

409: Once again, an edict orders Astrology and all methods of Divination to be punished by death.

415: In Alexandria, Egypt, the Christian mob, urged by the bishop Cyrillus, attacks a few days before the Judaeo-Christian Pascha (Easter) and cuts to pieces the famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. The pieces of her body, carried around by the Christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, are finally burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron. On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the pagan priests of North Africa who end their lives either crucified or burned alive.

416: The inquisitor Hypatius, alias "The Sword of God", exterminates the last Gentiles of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December) all non-Christian army officers, public employees and judges are dismissed.

423: Emperor Theodosius B declares (8th June) that the Religion of the Gentiles is nothing more than "demon worship" and orders all those who persist in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and torture.

429: The Temple of Goddess Athena (Parthenon) on the Acropolis of Athens is sacked. The Athenian pagans are persecuted.

435: On 14th November, a new edict by Emperor Theodosius B orders the death penalty for all "heretics" and Gentiles of the Empire. Only Judaism is considered a legal non-Christian Religion.

438: Emperor Theodosius B issues an new edict (31st January) against the Gentiles, incriminating their "idolatry" as the reason of a recent plague (!)

440 to 450: The Christians demolish all the monuments, altars and Temples of Athens, Olympia, and other Greek cities.

448: Theodosius B orders all the non-Christian books to be burned.

450: All the Temples of Aphrodisias (City of Goddess Aphrodite) are demolished and all its Libraries burned down. The city is renamed Stavroupolis (City of the Cross).

451: New edict by Emperor Theodosius B (4th November) emphasizes that "idolatry" is punished by death.

457 to 491: Sporadic persecutions against the Gentiles of the Eastern Empire. Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured and imprisoned. The proselytizer Conon and his followers exterminate the last Gentiles of Imbros Island, Norheast Aegean Sea. The last worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus.

482 to 488: The majority of the Gentiles of Minor Asia are exterminated after a desperate revolt against the Emperor and the Church.

486: More "underground" pagan priests are discovered, arrested, burlesqued, tortured and executed in Alexandria, Egypt.

515: Baptism becomes obligatory even for those that already say they are Christians. The Emperor of Constantinople Anastasius orders the massacre of the Gentiles in the Arabian city Zoara and the demolition of the Temple of local God Theandrites.

528: Emperor Jutprada (Justinianus) outlaws the "alternative" Olympian Games of Antioch. He also orders the execution (by fire, crucifixion, tearing to pieces by wild beasts or cutting to pieces by iron nails) of all who practice "sorcery, divination, magic or idolatry" and prohibits all teachings by the Gentiles (".the ones suffering from the blasphemous insanity of the Hellenes").

529: Emperor Justinianus outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy and has its property confiscated.

532: The inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus, a fanatic monk, leads a crusade against the Gentiles of Minor Asia.

542: Emperor Justinianus allows the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus to convert the Gentiles of Phrygia, Caria and Lydia, Minor Asia. Within 35 years of this crusade, 99 churches and 12 monasteries are built on the sites of demolished pagan Temples.

546: Hundreds of Gentiles are put to death in Constantinople by the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus.

556: Emperor Justinianus orders the notorious inquisitor Amantius to go to Antioch, to find, arrest, torture and exterminate the last Gentiles of the city and burn all the private libraries down.

562: Mass arrests, burlesquing, tortures, imprisonments and executions of Gentile Hellenes in Athens, Antioch, Palmyra and Constantinople.

578 to 582: The Christians torture and crucify Gentile Hellenes all around the Eastern Empire, and exterminate the last Gentiles of Heliopolis (Baalbek).

580: The Christian inquisitors attack a secret Temple of Zeus in Antioch. The priest commits suicide, but the rest Gentiles are arrested. All the prisoners, the Vice Governor Anatolius included, are tortured and sent to Constantinople to face trial. Sentenced to death they are thrown to the lions. The wild animals being unwilling to tear them to pieces, they end up crucified. Their dead bodies are dragged in the streets by the Christian mob and afterwards thrown unburied in the dump.

583: New persecutions against the Gentile Hellenes by the Emperor Mauricius.

590: In all the Eastern Empire the Christian accusers "discover" pagan conspiracies. New storm of torture and executions.

692: The "Penthekto" Council of Constantinople prohibits the remains of Calends, Brumalia, Anthesteria, and other pagan / Dionysian celebrations.

804: The Gentile Hellenes of Mesa Mani (Cape Tainaron, Lakonia, Greece) resist successfully the attempt of Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople, to convert them to Christianity.

850 to 860: Violent conversion of the last Gentile Hellenes of Laconia by the Armenian "Saint" Nikon.



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"Λάθε Βιώσας"
Επίκουρος

"Tabula Rassa"

Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 18:15
I have one quick question in order to clear a few things, so I know what are you talking about:
When you guys talk about god, which god do you mean?
The god that was invented by the American-Indians?
The god that was invented by the Greeks?
The god that was invented by the Sumerians?
The god that was invented by the Chinese?
Or the god that was invented and imposed by the Jews?


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Επίκουρος

"Tabula Rassa"

Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 18:55
I read Plantinga's theistic theories:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=104663 - http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=104663
I found a lot of gibberish, but nowhere did I find any explanations or even excuses about the fact that the Abrahamic god of the desert, the first day, "created" light:
 
In Genesis:
 
The third day he "created" plants and vegetation:
 
 
And the fourth day he "created" the light producing objects, like suns and stars:
 
 
The first problem I see here is how did the biblical god managed to "create" light the first day, but "create" the light producing lights the fourth day?
The second problem I see is how did the desert god "created" vegetation the third day, without the existance of any light producing objects (suns, stars)? What I mean is: he never had heard of a thing called Photosynthesis?


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Επίκουρος

"Tabula Rassa"

Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 20:33
Originally posted by Cezar

By means of logic, if God exists (mainly speaking of the abrahmanic God) then, to be complete It must also contain Its nonexistence. So God exists and also doesn't exist. Therefore either you have a God which is limited by it's own existence or you have a God that is unlimited therefore you either and simultaneously have and don't have a God. So if you chose to believe that God only exists you chose to limit the unlimited God. If you decide that God doesn't exist you limit yourself to an existence that isn't complete by denying the posibility of the existance of a God. It's the choice of completness or consistency. Believing in God is usually inconsistent. Atheists are generally consistent.

I'm not aware of God requiring to be a superset containing everything.
Originally posted by Epikoureios

I found a lot of gibberish, but nowhere did I find any explanations or even excuses about the fact that the Abrahamic god of the desert, the first day, "created" light:

What do you mean Abrahamic?

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Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 20:37
The 2 heresies of Judaism, also known as apocalyptical religions (Christianity & Islam) are an invention of the same person, Abraham.

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"Λάθε Βιώσας"
Επίκουρος

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Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 20:40
To be more specific: the god of the 2 religions I'm mentioning above is the invention of Abraham.

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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 21:03
Islam has nothing to do with the bible is my point. Although on the surface Islam and Christianity look similar the underlying theology is quite different. To attack the bible and extend this critisim to Islam is completely incorrect.

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Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 23:52
Originally posted by Epikureious

I read Plantinga's theistic theories:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=104663 - http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=104663
I found a lot of gibberish, but nowhere did I find any explanations or even excuses about the fact that the Abrahamic god of the desert, the first day, "created" light
Then obviously you haven't understood neither Plantinga, nor that debate.
 
(Summarized from Vlasis Rassias’ book "Demolish Them..")
 That's a mumbo-jumbo of accusations blaming together secular and laic authorities, losing any historical grasp upon centuries of Byzantine history. It looks like a type of Hellenic ideological extremism (there was a period when Hellene was synonymous with pagan). Anyway the part with inquisitors in 6th century was quite hilarious.
Anyway, what do you think of the persecution of thousands of followers of Dionysos's cult and other mystery cults in Rome, at the beginning of 2nd century BC? There was no Christianity then to lay a blame on ....
 
 

Posted By: Greek Hoplite
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 03:04
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Islam has nothing to do with the bible is my point. Although on the surface Islam and Christianity look similar the underlying theology is quite different.
 
I think that at least at the first centuries of islam's existance , according to christians islam was a heresy of christianity.
 
Epikoureios wrote:
"As a Hellene I was insulted too when I found out the following"
 
 
Yes its true that bad christians( fanatics) have done many crimes especially in ancient monuments and libraries. But they have maybe an excuse for all these if we consider the persecutions against christians during the first three centuries A.D.,do you know how amusing is to be eaten by a lion?
 


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My blog
http://mankap.blogspot.com/

Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 06:43

Hi there Cezar.

You're showing people would face a contradiction. But that's because the theory itself (to be complete requires to contain a deficiency like noneexistance) is a contradiction:
 
Something, either:
 
1- exists
 
or
 
2- doesn't exist
 
If something exists, so it doesn't cotain 'noneexistance'. If we think it should, so our sentence is a paradox.
 
In fact, concepts like 'existance', 'shadow', 'good' or 'bad', etc. have got their meaning only when they're compared to their opposite:
 
Let's say God doesn't exist; but there should be another existance which is a mesuare, a scale for 'noneexistance' of God or whatever you call.


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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.

Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 08:38
Chilbudios wrote:
That's a mumbo-jumbo of accusations blaming together secular and laic authorities, losing any historical grasp upon centuries of Byzantine history. It looks like a type of Hellenic ideological extremism (there was a period when Hellene was synonymous with pagan). Anyway the part with inquisitors in 6th century was quite hilarious.
You know, you are absoluteley right! All this stuff I quoted from Vlassis Rassias about the crimes against the Hellenes are nothing but "Hellenic ideological extemism" and "hillarious" asserions from my part, and they can not be taken seriously by people like you. What can it be taken seriously though (by people like you) are stories like virgins that give birth and remain virgins, dead people that get resurrected, donkeys that speak, people that walk on water and turn water into wine etc.
 
God (Yahweh) protect me from your followers!


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"Λάθε Βιώσας"
Επίκουρος

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Posted By: Giordano
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 08:45
Finally what glasses use to look at world you'll see it.A christ or muslim when
science explore something immediatelly convert its religion and believe ever exploration proves god's existence and their religion is truth only.With an objectical glasses everything so different.With discussing about this subject
doesn't bring nobody to nowhere...
To believe  is to close your eyes,ears ,you believe or not,you've no third chance.
I respect all believers and wait for the same behaviours from them too...


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War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it.
Desiderius Erasmus

Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 08:50
Greek Hoplite wrote:
Yes its true that bad christians( fanatics) have done many crimes especially in ancient monuments and libraries. But they have maybe an excuse for all these if we consider the persecutions against christians during the first three centuries A.D.,do you know how amusing is to be eaten by a lion?
It was the Romans, not the Hellenes, that persecuted the early Christians for defecting from the Roman Army and discontinue to fight for the Empire, due to the pacifist ideologies of one Paul Spermologos of Tarsus and his clever invention for putting an end to the Roman occupation, the desecration of his temples and the diminishment of the Sanhendrin and its Hierateion!
It was not the Hellenes that persecuted the early Christians and throw them to the lions, so where do you see the excuse for the Christian atrocities against the Hellenes and not the Romans?


-------------
"Λάθε Βιώσας"
Επίκουρος

"Tabula Rassa"

Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 09:06
You know, you are absoluteley right! All this stuff I quoted from Vlassis Rassias about the crimes against the Hellenes are nothing but "Hellenic ideological extemism" and "hillarious" asserions from my part, and they can not be taken seriously by people like you. What can it be taken seriously though (by people like you) are stories like virgins that give birth and remain virgins, dead people that get resurrected, donkeys that speak, people that walk on water and turn water into wine etc.
 
God (Yahweh) protect me from your followers!
There are two fatal mistakes in your position.
 
One which you and Vlassis Rassias commit together - the erroneous image of the past. For instance, Vlassis Rassias wrongly states "Religious tolerance and restoration of the pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.". Julian's policy was openly anti-Christian, therefore intolerant to the religion he fought against. But it would be against your agenda and would undermine a key argument of yours to concede the border tolerance/intolerance isn't by far coinciding with the border non-Christian/Christian. One of the strong arguments motivating the anti-Christianity would collapse like a pack of cards.
It would be a waste of time to pick each one of those one-liners and show the shaky grounds they stand on (dichotomies like Gentiles/Pagans vs Christians, Pagan vs Inquisitors, etc. all point to marks of late and certainly inaccurate persepectives), when not openly false. And we won't even reach the reliability of the sources and their interpretation in the context of their contemporary ideologies.
 
The second mistake is so far only yours, and is the known fallacy of the false dilemma. If I'm not openly anti-Christian then I must believe in a Christian god.
It is an illusion to think beliefs are proper only to Abrahamic religions or whatever "non-secular" environment. You're a good example that beliefs, doctrines and ignorance are dangerously flourishing in the anti-religion attitude.
 
It was not the Hellenes that persecuted the early Christians and throw them to the lions, so where do you see the excuse for the Christian atrocities against the Hellenes and not the Romans?
Leaving aside the naive frame of the question, you may consider that what you call "Hellenes" were at that time part of the Roman empire, Roman citizens, and therefore Romans.

Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 09:36
Chiliburdas wrote:
You're a good example that beliefs, doctrines and ignorance are dangerously flourishing in the anti-religion attitude.
 
Those words can easily be used about the Christian introlerance against the Hellenic religion (Dodekatheon), but I guess that is ok for you, in your book, since that was the the desire, the command and the will of your desert "god"!
 
Chiliburdas also wrote:
Leaving aside the naive frame of the question, you may consider that what you call "Hellenes" were at that time part of the Roman empire, Roman citizens, and therefore Romans.
 
Hellenes were part of the Roman Empire, all right! As slaves! I see that you don't like reading that much, at least then go see a movie or two, like "Spartacus".


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"Λάθε Βιώσας"
Επίκουρος

"Tabula Rassa"

Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 10:18
To comment further on what Chilbetd wrote:
"You're a good example that beliefs, doctrines and ignorance are dangerously flourishing in the anti-religion attitude".
Those words can also easily be used about the Christian intollerance against the American-Indians and their suffering under the christian invaders who "proselytize" them under torture in the concentration camps spread throughout N & S America, the so called "Missions".
And all of this because they didn't believe in your god? Some god that must be!!!


-------------
"Λάθε Βιώσας"
Επίκουρος

"Tabula Rassa"

Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 11:45

I have to agree with most of the Epikoureios posts and arguments.

Regardin the topic, IMO the existence of the god is possible as much as the non-existence of it. I have to choose, and I choose that I dont know if god exists. There are no reliable proofs and arguments pro or against the existence of god, you have to choose what to believe.

Regarding christianism and islam, well, these are some modern religions, created on a older substratum. The history of the religions is interesting, the more you study it, the more you understand how man is able to believe in (and to die for) his own imagination...



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Prej heshtjes...!

Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 15:51
I don't like to waste my time deconstructing mindless comments. So if anyone expects answers from me, please make an effort.
 
 

Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 17:56

Chilbudios wrote: "So if anyone expects answers from me, please make an effort".

As a matter of fact, I have some questions to ask you, and if you're kind enough, please make an effort to enlighten an idiot like me.
I am expecting your answers:
 
1) Why did your god order the slaughter of babies by sword?
Numbers 31:17 - Hosea 13:16 - Joshua 6:21 - Deuteronomy 2:33 - Isaiah 13:9 - 13:15 - Ezekiel 9:5

2) Why does your god condone cutting open the pregnant women?
Hosea 13:16 - 2 Kings 15:16

3) Why does your god condone slavery and beating slaves into a slow death?
Leviticus 25:44 - Exodus 21:20 - Ephesians 6:5 - Leviticus 25:45-46

4) Why does your god condone kidnapping and raping virgin girls after slaughtering their families in front of their eyes?
Numbers 31:17 - Isaiah 13:9, 13:15

5) Why did your loving god kill 42 boys for calling a man "baldhead"?
2 Kings 2:23

Since I have a feeling that your reply will be the usual: "you are taking those passages out of context or those people sinned against God" I will respond with
6) How do you take genocide, rape, kidnapping, murder, infanticide, and slavery out of context? and 7) What sin did the infants & embryos commit against your god to make him order his people to cut open the bellies of pregnant women?

8) How can an omnipotent, omniscient god be "A jealous God"?
Deuteronomy 5:9
you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

9) If the world is too complex to not have a creator, then the creator would be, by definition, too complex to not require a creator also.

10) A Loving god would not have created Hell.
 


-------------
"Λάθε Βιώσας"
Επίκουρος

"Tabula Rassa"

Posted By: Northman
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 20:05
Epikoureios and others - if I may suggest you not to stray too far off topic. This thread is about Gods existance - or the impossibility of that - not whether he was good or bad.
 
Thank you!

~ Northman
 
 


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Posted By: Greek Hoplite
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 02:16
Originally posted by Epikoureios

It was the Romans, not the Hellenes, that persecuted the early Christians for defecting from the Roman Army and discontinue to fight for the Empire,
 
Ι do not think that only Romans persecuted Christians, but and other paganists (at least unofficialy) and do not forget that after 212 AD all the residents of the empire were roman citizens.But as i said i don t agree with todays creteria  for the barbaric actions of christians against paganists but maybe that age i would have different reasons and criteria for these actions.
 
Originally posted by Epikoureios

As a matter of fact, I have some questions to ask you, and if you're kind enough, please make an effort to enlighten an idiot like me.
I am expecting your answers:
 
 
These are actions of men not God's actions.If you know God does not want to tell people what to do because people have the freedom of choice.
 


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My blog
http://mankap.blogspot.com/

Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 02:42
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


I'm not aware of God requiring to be a superset containing everything.
 
The completness of Allah I am reffering is not about containing but performing.
 
You accept that Allah is limited? So Allah is not allmighty(powerful....) he's not able of denying it's own existance. Allah is an incomplete God, therefore there must be something out of his reach. So I could be out of Allah abilities therefore I should not be bound by the Quran.
Let's say it like this: "Allah is the God of Islam. All others, whether they are religious or not, are just beyond the limits of Allah. He has no power over them. Might be as well as if he doesn't exist.  Allah exists only through islamism." - that last one statement is a bit tricky, it could lead to something interesting.
 
 

Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 03:00

Gok_toruk, the contradiction is about the ability of God of denying it's own existence which rather than a contradiction is an incosistency consistent with the existance of the allmighty God.

I'll try it this way:
  1. God can create anything.
  2. I can think of my world as being one with a non-existent God.
  3. God can create the world I think of.
  4. Therefore God can create it's own nonexistance.

It's a little bit rough but you might get my point.

Don't mistake me I don't state that God must negate his existance, all I'm saying is that the nonexistent-God is as possible as the existent-God.
 
It looks like that { "God exists" <=> ~"God exists" }

Posted By: Richard XIII
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 04:43
Godel theorems demonstrate that starting from a non-contradictory set of axioms there are propositions impossible to prove to be true or false, the propositions are indecidable. I think we are in this situation. God is not a logical entity. 

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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

Albert Einstein

Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 04:47
Cezar, your problem has some similarity with "An almighty god can create such a heavy stone he couldn't lift (therefore he isn't almighty)".
 
I don't think this absolute omnipotence (i.e. taken ad litteram) is a valid concept to work with: let's ignore god for the moment and just focus on the word. The entity described as omnipotent would be able (according to this interpretation) to do things he can't undo or focusing only on your observation: be able to create worlds (instances) where he doesn't exist.
However, not god, but also great individuals in human history holding a great power were called as such: "Oh you, allmighty one". So the pharoahs or the sultans named "allmighty" would bring two possibilites.
a) they could deny their existence or even do various other tricky things with their almightiness (create married bachelors, squared circles, anything you imagine).
b) the word "allmighty" means something else
Then as we turn back to Christian theology we find philosophers like Thomas Aquinas saying "nothing that would imply a contradiction is covered by God's allmightiness". In the debate I linked you on the other page, such omnipotence is called "maximal potence/power" or "punk-omnipotence". This is the concept we should work with.

Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 05:21
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Cezar, your problem has some similarity with "An almighty god can create such a heavy stone he couldn't lift (therefore he isn't almighty)".
 
I don't think this absolute omnipotence (i.e. taken ad litteram) is a valid concept to work with: let's ignore god for the moment and just focus on the word. The entity described as omnipotent would be able (according to this interpretation) to do things he can't undo or focusing only on your observation: be able to create worlds (instances) where he doesn't exist.
However, not god, but also great individuals in human history holding a great power were called as such: "Oh you, allmighty one". So the pharoahs or the sultans named "allmighty" would bring two possibilites.
a) they could deny their existence or even do various other tricky things with their almightiness (create married bachelors, squared circles, anything you imagine).
b) the word "allmighty" means something else
Then as we turn back to Christian theology we find philosophers like Thomas Aquinas saying "nothing that would imply a contradiction is covered by God's allmightiness". In the debate I linked you on the other page, such omnipotence is called "maximal potence/power" or "punk-omnipotence". This is the concept we should work with.
 
I would enjoy working with a concept of a God that is precisely defined. However, it seems that religious people do not have a rigurous definition of God and I'm not entitled to give one.
Anyway, once a definition is stated it would be obviously a target for those who won't agree with it.
I don't have a problem with an allmighty God. You seem to deny the fact that an allmighty God is incosistent. So to paraphrase you I'll say that "An almighty God can lift anything while he can't lift a thing". If you want to limit (a) God to consistency, it's your choice. Does God agrees with your decision?

Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 05:28
Originally posted by Richard XIII

Godel theorems demonstrate that starting from a non-contradictory set of axioms there are propositions impossible to prove to be true or false, the propositions are indecidable. I think we are in this situation. God is not a logical entity. 
 
Godel theorems are limited to mathemathics. He also performed a demonstration af God existence using modal logic.
Richard, are you denying God's ability to turn into a logical entity?

Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 05:49
I would enjoy working with a concept of a God that is precisely defined. However, it seems that religious people do not have a rigurous definition of God and I'm not entitled to give one.
If you want definitions of God, I'd recommend you reading theology. I already listed two Christian theologicians in this thread - Aquinas and Plantinga; when they have nothing left to say to you, I'll be happy to provide more.
 
You seem to deny the fact that an allmighty God is incosistent.
No, I'm denying "allmighty" as you put it as a consistent term. Then obviously if you label a thing with an inconsistent epithet, you will conclude the respective thing is inconsistent. But it was your definition in the first place. Aquinas, like I've just shown, brings another definition.
 
If you want to limit (a) God to consistency, it's your choice. Does God agrees with your decision?
Since when being consistent is a limitation? Also, don't switch the burden the proof. You affirmed God can create everything, so you should ask him if he indeed he can. I've just pointed out the term "allmighty" means something else than you'd want to.

Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 06:33
Originally posted by Northman

Epikoureios and others - if I may suggest you not to stray too far off topic. This thread is about Gods existance - or the impossibility of that - not whether he was good or bad.
Thank you!
~ Northman
Yes moderator, you're right, I will stay the course and I won't stray from the subject again, even though I'd love to give some answers (and get some) from the Xian fundies in here.
So, the subject being the existence of god and the fact that I stray from it, last night I laid awake in my bed and I was thinking about the sin I commited in this Forum. Suddenly a revelation came to me, I saw the light, (hallelujah brothers and sisters) an angel came from haven dressed in white holding a syringe and a hammer gave me two tablets (of stone, not viagra) with over 300 proofs of the existence of god written on them.
Here it goes:
  1. COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT
    (1) If I say something must have a cause, it has a cause.
    (2) I say the universe must have a cause.
    (3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  2. ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I)
    (1) I define God to be X.
    (2) Since I can conceive of X, X must exist.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  3. ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (II)
    (1) I can conceive of a perfect God.
    (2) One of the qualities of perfection is existence.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  4. MODAL ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT
    (1) God is either necessary or unnecessary.
    (2) God is not unnecessary, therefore God must be necessary.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  5. TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I)
    (1) Check out the world/universe/giraffe.  Isn't it complex?
    (2) Only God could have made them so complex.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  6. ARGUMENT FROM BEAUTY, a.k.a. TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (II)
    (1) Isn't that baby/sunset/flower/tree beautiful?
    (2) Only God could have made them so beautiful.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  7. ARGUMENT FROM MIRACLES
    (1) My aunt had cancer.
    (2) The doctors gave her all these horrible treatments.
    (3) My aunt prayed to God and now she doesn't have cancer.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  8. MORAL ARGUMENT (I)
    (1) Person X, a well-known Atheist, was morally inferior to the rest of us.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  9. MORAL ARGUMENT (II)
    (1) In my younger days I was a cursing, drinking, smoking, gambling, child-molesting, thieving, murdering, bed-wetting bastard.
    (2) That all changed once I became religious.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  10. ARGUMENT FROM CREATION, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL INCREDULITY (I)
    (1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists.
    (2) Evolution can't be true, since I lack the mental capacity to understand it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be uncomfortable.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  11. ARGUMENT FROM FEAR
    (1) If there is no God then we're all going to die.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  12. ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE
    (1) [arbitrary passage from OT]
    (2) [arbitrary passage from NT]
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  13. ARGUMENT FROM INTELLIGENCE
    (1) Look, there's really no point in me trying to explain the whole thing to you stupid Atheists — it's too complicated for you to understand.  God exists whether you like it or not.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  14. ARGUMENT FROM UNINTELLIGENCE
    (1) Okay, I don't pretend to be as intelligent as you guys — you're obviously very well read.  But I read the Bible, and nothing you say can convince me that God does not exist.  I feel him in my heart, and you can feel him too, if you'll just ask him into your life.  "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son into the world, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish from the earth." John 3:16.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  15. ARGUMENT FROM BELIEF
    (1) If God exists, then I should believe in Him.
    (2) I believe in God.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  16. ARGUMENT FROM INTIMIDATION
    (1) See this bonfire?
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  17. PARENTAL ARGUMENT
    (1) My mommy and daddy told me that God exists.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  18. ARGUMENT FROM NUMBERS
    (1) Millions and millions of people believe in God.
    (2) They can't all be wrong, can they?
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  19. ARGUMENT FROM ABSURDITY
    (1) Maranathra!
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  20. ARGUMENT FROM ECONOMY
    (1) God exists, you bastards!
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  21. BOATWRIGHT'S ARGUMENT
    (1) Ha ha ha.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  22. DORE'S ARGUMENT
    (1) I forgot to take my meds.
    (2) Therefore, I AM CHRIST!!
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  23. ARGUMENT FROM GUITAR MASTERY
    (1) Jimi Hendrix is God.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  24. ARGUMENT FROM INTERNET AUTHORITY
    (1) There is a website that successfully argues for the existence of God.
    (2) Here is the URL.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  25. ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPREHENSIBILITY
    (1) Ugaga booboom hicup-acum birligaga!
    (2) No one has ever refuted (1).
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  26. ARGUMENT FROM AMERICAN EVANGELISM
    (1) Telling people that God exists makes me filthy rich.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  27. MITCHELL'S ARGUMENT
    (1) The Christian God exists.
    (2) Therefore, all worldviews which don't assume the Christian God's existence are false and incomprehensible.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  28. ARGUMENT FROM BLINDNESS (I)
    (1) Atheists are spiritually blind.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  29. ARGUMENT FROM BLINDNESS (II)
    (1) God is love.
    (2) Love is blind.
    (3) Stevie Wonder is blind.
    (4) Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  30. ARGUMENT FROM FALLIBILITY
    (1) Human reasoning is inherently flawed.
    (2) Therefore, there is no reasonable way to challenge a proposition.
    (3) I propose that God exists.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  31. ARGUMENT FROM SMUGNESS
    (1) God exists.
    (2) I don't give a crap whether you believe it or not; I have better things to do than to try to convince you morons.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  32. ARGUMENT FROM META-SMUGNESS
    (1) f**k you.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  33. ARGUMENT FROM MANIFESTATIONS
    (1) If you turn your head sideways and squint a little, you can see an image of a bearded face in that tortilla.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  34. SLATHER'S ARGUMENT
    (1) My toaster is God.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  35. ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPLETE DEVASTATION
    (1) A plane crashed killing 143 passengers and crew.
    (2) But one child survived with only third-degree burns.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  36. ARGUMENT FROM POSSIBLE WORLDS
    (1) If things had been different, then things would be different.
    (2) That would be bad.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  37. ARGUMENT FROM SHEER WILL
    (1) I DO believe in God!  I DO believe in God!  I do I do I do I DO believe in God!
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  38. ARGUMENT FROM NONBELIEF
    (1) The majority of the world's population are nonbelievers in Christianity.
    (2) This is just what Satan intended.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  39. ARGUMENT FROM POST-DEATH EXPERIENCE
    (1) Person X died an Atheist.
    (2) He now realizes his mistake.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  40. ARGUMENT FROM EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL
    (1) God loves you.
    (2) How could you be so heartless to not believe in him?
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  41. ARGUMENT FROM SACRIFICIAL BLACKMAIL
    (1) Jesus died for your sins.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  42. ARGUMENT FROM INCOHERENT BABBLE
    (1) See that person spazzing on the church floor babbling incoherently?
    (2) That's how infinite wisdom reveals itself.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  43. OPRAH'S ARGUMENT (I)
    (1) The human spirit exists.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  44. OPRAH'S ARGUMENT (II)
    (1) Check out this video segment.
    (2) Now how can anyone watch that and NOT believe in God?
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  45. CALVINIST ARGUMENT, a.k.a. TERTULLIAN'S ARGUMENT
    (1) If God exists, then he will let me watch you be tortured forever.
    (2) I rather like that idea.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  46. ARGUMENT FROM CROCKERY
    (1) Pots don't go around giving orders to the potter.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  47. ARGUMENT FROM MASS PRODUCTION
    (1) Barbie dolls were created.
    (2) If Barbie dolls were created, then so were trees.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  48. ARGUMENT FROM PAROCHIALISM
    (1) God is everywhere.
    (2) We haven't been everywhere to prove he's not there.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  49. ARGUMENT FROM UPPERCASE ASSERTION
    (1) GOD EXISTS!  GET USED TO IT!
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  50. ARGUMENT FROM INFINITE REGRESS
    (1) Ask Atheists what caused the Big Bang.
    (2) Regardless of their answer, ask how they know this.
    (3) Continue process until the Atheist admits he doesn't know the answer to one of your questions.
    (4) You win!
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  51. ARGUMENT FROM INCREDULITY
    (1) How could God NOT exist, you bozo?
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  52. ARGUMENT FROM HISTORY
    (1) The Bible is true.
    (2) Therefore, the Bible is historical fact.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  53. ARGUMENT FROM RESURRECTION
    (1) Proof of God's existence will be available when you rise bodily from your grave.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  54. ARGUMENT FROM BIOGENESIS
    (1) Where did Adam come from, dummy?
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  55. ARGUMENT FROM STEADFAST FAITH
    (1) A lot of really cool people believed in God their entire lives.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  56. ARGUMENT FROM LONELINESS
    (1) Christians say that Jesus is their best friend.
    (2) I'm lonely, and I want a best friend.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  57. ARGUMENT FROM ARGUMENTATION
    (1) God exists.
    (2) [Atheist's counterargument]
    (3) Yes he does.
    (4) [Atheist's counterargument]
    (5) Yes he does!
    (6) [Atheist's counterargument]
    (7) YES HE DOES!!!
    (8) [Atheist gives up and goes home.]
    (9) Therefore, God exists.

  58. ARGUMENT FROM CREATIVE INTERPRETATION
    (1) God is:
        (a) The feeling you have when you look at a newborn baby.
        (b) The love of a mother for her child.
        (c) That little still voice in your heart.
        (d) Humankind's potential to overcome their difficulties.
        (e) How I feel when I look at a sunset.
        (f) The taste of ice cream on a hot day.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  59. ARGUMENT FROM INSECURITY
    (1) We have gone to absolutely berserk lengths to establish that Atheists are laughable morons.
    (1.5) Actually, we did so in the hopes of curing our own insecurities about theism — but there's no chance in hell we'll ever admit that.
    (2) Therefore, Atheists are laughable morons.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  60. ARGUMENT FROM SUPERIORITY
    (1) If God does not exist, then I am an inferior being, since I am not "special" in a cosmic sense.
    (2) But I am superior because I am a Christian.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  61. ARGUMENT FROM PERFECTION
    (1) If there are absolute moral standards, then God exists.
    (2) Atheists say that there are no absolute moral standards.
    (3) But that's because they don't want to admit to being sinners.
    (4) Therefore, there are absolute moral standards.
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  62. ARGUMENT FROM HUMAN NECESSITY
    (1) Atheists say that they don't need God.
    (2) Which just goes to show that they need God.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  63. ARGUMENT FROM HIDDEN LOGIC (I)
    (1) Intellectually, I know that the existence of God is impossible, or vastly improbable.
    (2) But I must put on the appearance of being cool and intellectual in front of my Christian apologist peers.
    (3) Therefore, I must pretend that (1) is false.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  64. ARGUMENT FROM HIDDEN LOGIC (II)
    (1) Atheists say that God doesn't exist.
    (2) But they only say that because they want to look cool and intellectual in front of their peers.
    (3) They don't fool me!
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  65. ARGUMENT FROM INDULGENCE
    (1) Atheists like to think that they can control their emotional desires.
    (2) But they're Atheists, so they can't.
    (3) Therefore, Atheists feel the need to indulge in whatever they feel like without worrying about committing sin.
    (4) This just goes to show how they need God in their lives.
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  66. ARGUMENT FROM HATE
    (1) Some Atheists hate Christians and Christianity.
    (2) That's why they don't believe in God.
    (3) Pathetic, aren't they?
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  67. ARGUMENT FROM QUENTIN SMITH
    (1) Quentin Smith says that God does not exist.
    (2) But God does exist.
    (3) Therefore, Quentin Smith cannot be accepted as an expert on the matter, because he is wrong.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  68. ARGUMENT FROM EVIL SPIRITS
    (1) I've just had contact with evil spirits.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  69. ARGUMENT FROM KENT HOVIND
    (1) I don't want to work for a living.
    (2) I don't want to pay taxes.
    (3) I can get gullible fundamentalists to send me money.
    (4) I can use religious exemption claims to tie the IRS up in court.
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  70. ARGUMENT FROM KENT HOVIND'S CHALLENGE
    (1) Kent Hovind offers $250,000 (which may or may not exist) to anyone who can demonstrate evolution (defined as a natural, acausal origin of the universe) to a reasonable doubt (meaning with 100% certainty, allowing for no other possibilities whatsoever) in front of a neutral committee (handpicked by Hovind himself) and according to certain criteria (carefully worded so as to rule out any possibility whatsoever of the challenge ever being met).
    (2) No Atheist has ever met this challenge.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  71. ARGUMENT FROM INSANITY
    (1) No sane person could have thought up Christianity.
    (2) Therefore, it must be true
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  72. ARGUMENT FROM EXHAUSTION (abridged)
    (1) Do you agree with the utterly trivial proposition X?
    (2) Atheist: of course.
    (3) How about the slightly modified proposition X'?
    (4) Atheist: Um, no, not really.
    (5) Good.  Since we agree, how about Y?  Is that true?
    (6) Atheist: No!  And I didn't agree with X'!
    (7) With the truths of these clearly established, surely you agree that Z is true as well?
    (8) Atheist: No.  So far I have only agreed with X!  Where is this going, anyway?
    (9) I'm glad we all agree.....
    ....
    (37) So now we have used propositions X, X', Y, Y', Z, Z', P, P', Q and Q' to arrive at the obviously valid point R.  Agreed?
    (38) Atheist: Like I said, so far I've only agreed with X.  Where is this going?
    ....
    (81) So we now conclude from this that propositions L'', L''' and J'' are true.  Agreed?
    (82) I HAVEN'T AGREED WITH ANYTHING YOU'VE SAID SINCE X!  WHERE IS THIS GOING?
    ....
    (177) ...and it follows that proposition HRV, SHQ'' and BTU' are all obviously valid.  Agreed?
    (178) [Atheist either faints from overwork or leaves in disgust.]
    (179) Therefore, God exists.

  73. MR. GOODSALT'S ARGUMENT (ARGUMENT FROM GENERAL INQUIRY)
    (1) Question for Atheist population: [apparently random question]
    (2) Your answer is wrong.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  74. PEACOCK ARGUMENT FROM ORIGINALITY
    (1) I have written the following to demonstrate the existence of God.
    (2) [insert entire text of a William Lane Craig article]
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  75. PEACOCK ARGUMENT FROM LIMITED VOCABULARY
    (1) You use lots of big words.
    (2) Therefore, I cannot possibly be expected to understand your refutation of my position.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  76. PEACOCK ARGUMENT FROM SELECTIVE MEMORY
    (1) [Christian asks "stumper" question.]
    (2) [Atheist answers question.]
    (3) [A lapse of time]
    (4) [Christian repeats question.]
    (5) [Atheist repeats answer.]
    (6) [A lapse of time]
    (7) [Christian repeats question.]
    (8) [Atheist repeats answer.]
    (9) [A lapse of time]
    (10) Atheist, you never answered my question.
    (11) Therefore, God exists.

  77. ARGUMENT FROM DIVINE ECONOMICS
    (1) Protestant Christian nations are rich.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  78. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL SANITY
    (1) I've had religious experiences that can't be explained unless I'm insane or God exists.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  79. ARGUMENT FROM INSTITUTIONAL LONGETIVITY
    (1) The Roman Catholic Church has been around for a long time.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  80. ARGUMENT FROM INEVITABILITY
    (1) I have proof that God exists.
    (2) I won't bother to tell you what it is because, being Atheists, you would be hostile to the conclusion anyway.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  81. ARGUMENT FROM "THE MATRIX"
    (1) We cannot prove that we don't live in a Matrix-like world.
    (2) Therefore we cannot know reality.
    (3) If reality is contingent, then everything is possible.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  82. ARGUMENT FROM SUBJECTIVITY
    (1) Everything is subjective.
    (2) No subjective proof can be superior to any other subjective proof.
    (3) Based upon my subjective opinion, your opinion, that if everything is subjective then, perforce, God is subjective, is false.
    (4) Therefore, God (objectively) exists.

  83. ARGUMENT FROM POSTMODERNISM
    (1) I'm going to prove to you that God exists.
    (2) [Insert any of the other arguments on this page in here.]
    (3) [Atheist refutes argument.]
    (4) I cannot prove there is a God any more than anyone of us can prove we really exist in a tangible world.
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  84. META-PROOF
    (1) This is a proof of God's existence.
    (2) If the reader finishes reading this proof, the existence of God will be proven to him/her.
    (3) If the existence of God is proven, then God exists.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  85. PROOF BY ANECDOTE
    (1) God can be seen by those who believe in Him.
    (2) If the God is seen, then He must exist.
    (3) I have seen God.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  86. ARGUMENT FROM BIBLICAL HISTORY
    (1) Many modern historians think that there probably was somebody named Jesus, maybe.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  87. BENDER’S ARGUMENT (I)
    (1) One day, demons were tap-dancing on my roof.  I prayed and they went away.
    (2) Therefore, demons are really good dancers.
    (3) Also, God exists.

  88. BENDER’S ARGUMENT (II) (ARGUMENT FROM DAVID BLAINE)
    (1) If David Blaine does real magic, then God exists.
    (2) It looked real on his TV special.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  89. RANDMAN’S ARGUMENT
    (1) This entry from the 1975 World Book Encyclopedia on evolution contains some errors that I claim to have already substantiated.
    (2) Mr. Ph.D.-in-Evolutionary-Biology, this proves that evolution is an unsound scientific concept.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  90. ARGUMENT FROM MULTIPLICITY (I), a.k.a. METACROCK'S ARGUMENT
    (1) I have a large number of arguments for God.
    (2) One of them is probably true.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  91. ARGUMENT FROM FORTUITOUS COINCIDENCE
    (1) What are the odds of that happening?
    (2) Pretty long, I’ll bet.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  92. ARGUMENT FROM MYSTERIOUS USE OF PREPOSITIONS
    (1) It is impossible to disprove God with your puny human intellect unless you are above God.
    (2) Are you higher than God?
    (3) I’ll take that puzzled look on your face as a no.
    (4) Therefore, God (being the highest thing ever) exists.

  93. ARGUMENT FROM TEEN CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT
    (1) God is so totally awesome, dude, and if you would pretend that Creed and POD were good bands, you would realize that.
    (2) Also, our Youth Group leader Skip once, like, cured a broken leg using only the power of the almighty Lord.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  94. ARGUMENT FROM SPEAKING IN TOUNGES
    (1) My friend here, once started spontaneously speaking some jibberish that sounded to me kind of like Russian.
    (2) But neither he nor I know anything about Russian.
    (3) The only explanation is God.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  95. ARGUMENT FROM EUROPEAN HISTORY
    (1) Many prominent thinkers in pre-modern Europe believed in God.
    (2) Let’s just forget about the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  96. ARGUMENT FROM DESIGN (I), a.k.a. PALEY'S ARGUMENT, a.k.a. TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (III)
    (1) If there is a designer, then God must exist.
    (2) If I find a watch in a forest, there must be a designer.
    (3) [Throws watch into forest.]
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  97. ARGUMENT FROM DESIGN (II), a.k.a. GOD OF THE GAPS, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL INCREDULITY (II), a.k.a. TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (IV)
    (1) Isn't X amazing!
    (2) I don't understand how X could be, without something else (that I don't really understand either) making or doing X.
    (3) This something else must be God because I can't come up with a better explanation.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  98. ARGUMENT FROM OFFENSE
    (1) God exists.
    (2) [Atheist makes counterarguments.]
    (3) You know what?  I am offended.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  99. ARGUMENT FROM PRAYER
    (1) God exists.
    (2) [Atheist makes counterarguments.]
    (3) You have my prayers.

  100. ARGUMENT FROM AGNOSTICISM
    (1) I don't know and you don't know either.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  101. ARGUMENT FROM LOVE
    (1) Have you ever fallen in love?
    (2) [Of course!!]
    (3) So what is the cause of love?  Isn't it God?  Am I right or not?
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  102. ARGUMENT FROM IDENTITY (PC ARGUMENT)
    (1) Believing in God is a central part of my identity.
    (2) You don't mean to deny my identity do you?
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  103. ARGUMENT FROM FORMATTING
    (1) Behold, foolish Atheists, I present you with an incontrovertible proof of the existence of God.
    (2) [Christian posts 10,000 word document without a single paragraph break.]
    (3) [Atheists' eyes implode.]
    (4) I see that nobody can refute (2).
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  104. ARGUMENT FROM NON-CONFRONTATION
    (1) I am not here to argue with you Atheists.
    (2) But come on, God obviously exists.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  105. ARGUMENT FROM EXODUS
    (1) If the Exodus story has any basis in historical fact, then God exists.
    (2) Some guy found some chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea.
    (3) There is absolutely no other way that chariots could get to the bottom of the Red Sea.
    (4) This means the Exodus story is true.
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  106. ARGUMENT FROM MARTYRDOM
    (1) The apostles would not have died for something they knew wasn't true.
    (2) Atheist gives examples of martyrs outside Christendom.
    (3) Obviously those examples were fooled by Satan.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  107. ARGUMENT FROM TINKERBELL
    (1) I really want God to be real.
    (2) If you wish for something really hard, it'll come true.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  108. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF DISPROOF
    (1) You can't prove God doesn't exist!
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  109. ARGUMENT FROM ANECDOTAL EXPERIENCE (I)
    (1) I once experienced something I can't explain.
    (2) [Atheists offer several possible, natural explanations.]
    (3) You're just guessing!  I was there.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  110. ARGUMENT FROM ANECDOTAL EXPERIENCE (II)
    (1) I have experienced feelings of God's presence in my mind.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  111. ARGUMENT FROM NEUROSCIENCE
    (1) Scientists say a portion of our brain may be responsible for mystical experiences.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  112. ARGUMENT FROM EYEWITNESS (sometimes follows or combined with Lack of Eyewitness I)
    (1) Someone wrote the creation story in the Bible.
    (2) That someone must have been an eyewitness to the described events.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  113. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EYEWITNESS (I)
    (1) You weren't there to witness abiogenisis/Big Bang/etc.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  114. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EYEWITNESS (II)
    (1) No one's ever seen one species turn into another.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  115. ARGUMENT FROM HALF A WING
    (1) Half of a wing is useless!
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  116. ARGUMENT FROM PREFERRED ANCESTRY
    (1) I don't want to be related to monkeys.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  117. ARGUMENT FROM FOOLISHNESS
    (1) The Bible says Atheists are fools.
    (2) I don't want to be a fool.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  118. ARGUMENT FROM PIG'S TEETH
    (1) Some scientists once thought a tooth was from an "ape-man."
    (2) Later scientists discovered it was a pig's tooth.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  119. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (I)
    (1) Someone made fun of my faith.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  120. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (II)
    (1) Jesus said that people would make fun of Christians.
    (2) I am an idiot.
    (3) People often point that out.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  121. ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (III)
    (1) You Atheists are mean!
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  122. ARGUMENT FROM JESUS SAID STUFF
    (1) Jesus said some really cool stuff.
    (2) No one else had said that stuff.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  123. ARGUMENT FROM DIFFERENCES
    (1) The Christian God is different than the gods of other religions.
    (2) Therefore, the Christian God exists.

  124. ARGUMENT FROM CHRISTIAN MORALITY (although it could probably be adapted to just about any religion)
    (1) Somewhere, someone who called himself or herself a Christian did something nice.
    (2) This person was probably not lying.
    (3) Therefore, this person was a Christian.
    (4) Therefore, Christians do nice things.
    (5) Therefore, Christians are moral.
    (6) Christians believe in the Bible.
    (7) Therefore, the Bible is moral.
    (8) The Bible is God's word.  It says so.
    (9) Therefore, God is moral.
    (10) (We are just ignoring all the not-nice things that Christians may or may not have done in the past, it's hard to trust history anyway, there are enemies of God working everywhere).
    (11) A moral God would be really nice.
    (12) Therefore, God exists.

  125. ARGUMENT FROM CRAZINESS, a.k.a. PERCHANCE'S SISTER'S ARGUMENT (I)
    (1) I would go crazy if I didn't believe in God.
    (2) I am not crazy.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  126. ARGUMENT FROM CHOCOLATE, a.k.a. MRS. POPE'S PROOF
    (1) Chocolate is God's gift to humanity.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.
    (3) Now class, would anyone like to attempt an Argument From Beer?

  127. ARGUMENT FROM WWJD
    (1) I have the “What Would Jesus Do?” T-shirt, bracelet, baseball hat, and shoelaces.
    (2) I wear them in public.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  128. ARGUMENT FROM INTEREST
    (1) If God really doesn’t exist than Atheists wouldn’t spend so much time talking about him.
    (2) [Atheist refutes (1).]
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  129. REID’S ARGUMENT
    (1) You assume that your senses are reliable even though you can’t prove it.
    (2) That means I get to assume anything I want.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  130. ARGUMENT FROM INTELLECTUAL SUPERIORITY
    (1) [Christian posts argument.]
    (2) [Atheist refutes argument.]
    (3) Atheist, you obviously didn’t understand my argument.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  131. ARGUMENT FROM CATCH-PHRASE
    (1) There are no Atheists in foxholes.
    (2) [Atheist points out Atheists in foxholes.]
    (3) They don’t count.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  132. TERCEL’S ARGUMENT (ARGUMENT FROM PROBABILITY)
    (1) We should believe what probably is true.
    (2) I have arbitrarily assigned the proposition “God exists” a probability of 0.75.
    (3) That probability came from my ass, which I know assigns extremely accurate probabilities to propositions concerning the existence of God.
    (4) So God probably exists.
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  133. ARGUMENT FROM FREE GIFT, a.k.a. http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Humor.html#Hank - Kissing Hank's Ass
    (1) If some guy came up to you on the street and offered you a billion dollars for nothing in return, would you take the money or deny his existence?
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  134. ARGUMENT FROM CHARITY
    (1) Atheists don’t build hospitals.
    (2) [Atheist points out Bill Gates and Ted Turner, who donate millions of dollars to charity.]
    (3) Yes, but do they build hospitals?
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  135. ARGUMENT FROM SERIOUS ASSERTION
    (1) God exists.
    (2) No, seriously.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  136. ARGUMENT FROM POSITIVE OUTCOME
    (1) Even if God doesn’t exist, it would be better if people believed He did.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  137. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EVIDENCE (I)
    (1) I believe that if God exists, there will be no evidence for his existence.
    (2) There is no evidence for the existence of God.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  138. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF EVIDENCE (II) (MODIFIED SIMPSON’S ARGUMENT)
    (1) God, if you exist, please give me absolutely no sign.
    (2)
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  139. ARGUMENT FROM IDIOCY
    (1) I am an idiot.
    (2) Even an idiot can see that God exists.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  140. ARGUMENT FROM TERRORISM (I)
    (1) Terrorists destroyed the WTC, killing thousands.
    (2) One piece of the rubble sort of looks like a cross.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  141. ARGUMENT FROM TERRORISM (II)
    (1) A plane was hijacked by terrorists.
    (2) The passengers prayed and attacked the terrorists.
    (3) The plane crashed into a field, killing all aboard.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  142. ARGUMENT FROM TERRORISM (III), a.k.a. PERCHANCE'S SISTER'S ARGUMENT (II)
    (1) September 11th was really, really bad.
    (2) We have bad things happen to us when we're doing something bad.
    (3) Therefore, September 11th was a punishment for something we did.
    (4) Maybe it was being arrogant?
    (5) Yeah, that's it!
    (6) God let September 11th happen to teach America humility.
    (7) Therefore, God exists.

  143. ARGUMENT FROM MASS MURDER
    (1) Stalin was an Atheist.
    (2) He murdered millions of people.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  144. ARGUMENT FROM TORNADOS
    (1) A large tornado hit Kansas City.
    (2) The tornado missed a church but destroyed several hundred homes.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  145. ARGUMENT FROM SPAGHETTI
    (1) A few people saw something weird in a bowl of spaghetti.
    (2) Some Catholics believe that it is the Virgin Mary.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  146. ARGUMENT FROM MONEY
    (1) All U.S. currency contains the motto "In God We Trust."
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  147. ARGUMENT FROM THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE (I)
    (1) The Pledge clearly states that America is "one nation, under God * * *."
    (2) The existence of God is thus a necessary condition for the existence of America.
    (3) America exists.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  148. ARGUMENT FROM THE FOUNDING FATHERS (I)
    (1) Some of America's Founding Fathers wrote favorably about the Bible.
    (2) The Founding Fathers were really, really smart.
    (3) Accordingly, the Bible must be true.
    (4) The Bible says that God exists.
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  149. ARGUMENT FROM THE FOUNDING FATHERS (II)
    (1) The Declaration of Independence includes the words "God" and "Creator".
    (2) Only a Christian would include the words "God" and "Creator"!
    (3) Therefore this is a Christian Nation.
    (4) A Christian Nation couldn't last over 200 years without God's help.
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  150. ARGUMENT FROM THE FALL OF PAGAN ROME
    (1) When Jesus was crucified, the Roman Empire was pagan, ruled by a pagan Emperor.
    (2) A couple of hundred years later, lots of Romans were Christians, and the Emperor was a Christian too!
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  151. ARGUMENT FROM LOTS OF BOOKS
    (1) The Bible has lots of books written by lots of authors over a long period of time.
    (2) Through centuries of vigorous apologetics we've been able to forge a more or less coherent plot for the whole Bible.
    (3) It is beyond human ability for so many authors over so long a time to write so many books from which we could hammer such a plot.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  152. ARGUMENT FROM UNLIKE OTHER RELIGIONS (I) (argument from sacrifice)
    (1) The Bible said Jesus died for our sins.
    (2) No other religious text describes a god that died for our sins!
    (3) Therefore, the Christian God exists.

  153. ARGUMENT FROM UNLIKE OTHER RELIGIONS (II) (argument from resurrection)
    (1) The Bible said Jesus rose from the dead.
    (2) No other religious text describes a god that rose from the dead!
    (3) Therefore, the Christian God exists.

  154. ARGUMENT FROM BRUTE FORCE
    (1) [Christian tears Darwin Fish off car, breaks it in thirds, sticks it to driver's side window.]
    (2) Therefore, the theory of evolution is wrong.
    (3) Therefore, creationism is right.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  155. ARGUMENT FROM TROY
    (1) There is little archeological evidence for the events in Exodus.
    (2) But look at Troy!  It was discovered when people thought the Iliad was only a story!  So who knows if there would be a time evidence for Exodus was discovered?
    (3) Therefore the Exodus actually happened.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  156. ARGUMENT FROM BIBLICAL PROPHECY (I)
    (1) The book of Daniel made some prophecies.
    (2) The prophecy was later fulfilled by other records in the Book of Daniel.
    (3) The prophecy came true!
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  157. ARGUMENT FROM SHAME
    (1) The Bible showed a group of people performing embarassing actions.
    (2) It must be true if the book describes negative events.
    (3) The Bible is describing historical events.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  158. ARGUMENT FROM EQUAL VALUE (PC argument II)
    (1) Evolution and the scientific worldview is a worldview.  Similarly, the biblical worldview is a worldview.
    (2) You are not discriminating against our worldview are you?
    (3) The Biblical worldview is as good as the scientific worldview.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  159. ARGUMENT FROM MODERATION (often employed by liberals)
    (1) The Creationist side occupies an extreme side of the spectrum.
    (2) Similarly, the Atheist side occupies another extreme side of the spectrum.
    (3) The liberals are in between.
    (4) Therefore, the liberal position on God is the most correct.
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  160. ARGUMENT FROM JACK CHICK
    (1) I have all these cool Jesus comics.
    (2) I also think Eternal is smart with all those great arguments.
    (3) Those comics sure convinced me!
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  161. ARGUMENT FROM EVIDENTIAL ASSERTION, a.k.a. "Henry Morris' Argument"
    (1) God exists.
    (2) Therefore all physical evidence (fossil record etc) must show this.
    (3) Therefore it does.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  162. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF MEANNESS
    (1) If God didn't exist, it would be mean of him to make me believe he did!
    (2) God isn't mean.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  163. ARGUMENT FROM WE ALL GOT FAITH
    (1) We all believe in something.
    (2) Therefore we all have faith.
    (3) My faith in God is no different from your faith that the sun will rise tomorrow morning.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  164. ARGUMENT FROM COOLNESS
    (1) That's really cool.
    (2) God must have done that.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  165. ARGUMENT FROM WTC, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM TERRORISM (III)
    (1) Terrorists destroyed the WTC, killing thousands.
    (2) An intact Bible was found in the ruins.
    (3) No, wait, it turns out it was a dictionary.
    (4) Oh, well, God exists anyway.

  166. ARGUMENT FROM COLLEGE FUNDING (usable by parents only)
    (1) You believe in God.
    (2) If I ever find out that you don't believe in God, you won't get any money for college!
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  167. ARGUMENT FROM SNOWFLAKES
    (1) Out of 3,300 pictures of snow-crystals catalogued no two are exactly alike.  Each has 6 points crossing at a 60 degree angle.  If one is like a fern it has 6 out-pointing leaves; if like a windmill, it has 6 sails; if like a starfish, 6 ribs; or if like a fir tree, 6 stems with plumes set in perfect symmetry.  This makes 3 distinct triangles to each flake.  The Hebrew word for snow equals 333 (Hebrew letters stand for numbers).
    (2) Could it not be that God has set His symbol of the Triune God in each flake?  The average snow storm produces about 1000 billion crystals.
    (3) Only an intelligent being could design so many forms.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  168. ARGUMENT FROM CUSTODY (used by the parents of a friend of mine)
    (1) We have legal custody of your son.
    (2) If you don't act as though the Christian God existed, then we won't let you see him.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  169. ARGUMENT FROM FIDEISM, a.k.a. MARTIN GARDNER'S ARGUMENT
    (1) Atheists are absolutely right.  There is no logical reason to believe God exists.
    (2) But He makes me feel good anyway.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  170. ARGUMENT FROM PEPPER'S PHILOSOPHY CLASS, a.k.a. THE ENERGY ARGUMENT
    (1) Things that exist have energy.
    (2) Energy is alive.
    (3) All living things are made from energy.
    (4) Therefore, God Exists.

  171. ARGUMENT FROM A BAD TRIP
    (1) I went to a party and took LSD.
    (2) I saw demons attacking me.
    (3) Then Jesus came and drove the demons away.
    (4) So I joined the Assemblies of God.
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  172. ARGUMENT FROM STUPIDITY
    (1) I am stupid.
    (2) God made man in his own image.
    (3) There are all horrible disasters going around the world.
    (4) God is omnipotent in power.
    (5) God is too stupid to do anything about these things.
    (6) Therefore, God exists.

  173. ARGUMENT FROM STAR TREK
    (1) You will be assimilated.
    (2) All your salvations belong to us.
    (3) Resistance is futile.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  174. ARGUMENT FROM PRAYER
    (1) When I pray, either it comes true or God has a better plan.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  175. ARGUMENT FROM DEMOCRACY
    (1) God would never allow a non-Christian to become president.
    (2) There has never been a non-Christian president.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  176. ARGUMENT FROM PAIN AVOIDANCE
    (1) If I don't believe God exists, I'll go to Hell.
    (2) Please don't hurt me.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  177. ARGUMENT FROM MOUNTAINS
    (1) People used to think gods lived on Mt. Olympus.
    (2) We've climbed Mt. Olympus and there were no gods there.
    (3) Therefore, pagan gods are false.
    (4) Therefore, the Christian God exists.

  178. ARGUMENT FROM FUZZY ANIMALS, a.k.a. TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (V)
    (1) Bunnies are cute.
    (2) Cuteness is not an evolutionary advantage.
    (3) Therefore, cuteness must have been designed.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  179. ARGUMENT FROM POLITICS
    (1) The vast majority of the people believe in God.
    (2) I'll get elected if I pretend to believe in God.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  180. ARGUMENT FROM PRESIDENTIAL IGNORANCE
    (1) If I ask God to blesserize Texas, nobody'll mess with it.
    (2) Nobody messes with Texas.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  181. ARGUMENT FROM COINCIDENCE
    (1) We were driving home with our youth pastor when it started to rain really hard outside.
    (2) We pulled over to the side of the road, joined hands and asked gawd to deliver us home safely.
    (3) We arrived home safely.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  182. ARGUMENT FROM COMPUTERS
    (1) I tried to delete a copy of the TEN COMMANDMENTS from my computer.  It would not have mattered as I had another copy on file.
    (2) Still the computer malfunctioned.
    (3) The computer had more sense than Atheists who made it.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  183. ARGUMENT FROM INVISIBILITY
    (1) God is invisible.
    (2) I can't see God.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  184. ARGUMENT FROM RAIN, a.k.a. PERCHANCE'S SISTER'S ARGUMENT (III)
    (1) I wanted it to be a sunny day.
    (2) I prayed it wouldn't rain.
    (3) We had two thunderstorms.
    (4) Obviously, God didn't want to answer my prayer.
    (5) Of course not!  What a selfish thing to pray for!  How dare I try to compel God to my selfish desires!
    (6) The rain was God's punishment for my selfish desires.
    (7) Therefore, God exists.

  185. METACROCK'S ARGUMENT FOR GOD (I)
    (1) I Have a philosophy degree.
    (2) Your knowledge in philosophy is paltry in comparison to mine.
    (3) Therefore you are unable to comprehend my intense philosophical proofs of God's existence.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  186. METACROCK'S ARGUMENT FOR GOD (II)
    (1) I created the term "arbitrary necessity".
    (2) It is a golden principle and applies to whatever I say it does.
    (3) I say an eternal universe is an arbitrary necessity.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  187. ARGUMENT FROM BEER (I)
    (1) "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." — Ben Franklin
    (2) Beer exists.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  188. ARGUMENT FROM BEER (II)
    (1) Christian: Whatever you believe in is your god.
    (2) Atheist: I believe I'll have another beer.
    (3) Ha ha.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  189. ARGUMENT FROM MONKEYS
    (1) If man came from monkeys, there shouldn't be any more monkeys.
    (2) There are still monkeys.
    (3) Therefore, God Exists.

  190. ARGUMENT FROM C.S. LEWIS
    (1) C.S. Lewis had a lot of good arguments in favor of Christianity ... at least that’s what all my Christian friends tell me...
    (2) C.S. Lewis wrote some popular books too!
    (3) So anything C.S. Lewis said must be right!
    (4) Therefore, God Exists.

  191. ARGUMENT FROM UNIVERSAL DESTRUCTION
    (1) I woke up this morning and found that the universe still exists.
    (2) Therefore, its destruction was averted by God.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  192. ARGUMENT FROM DEAD FIREFIGHTERS
    (1) All those dead firefighters were blessed by a Catholic priest before they gave their lives.
    (2) For people they didn't even know!
    (3) Yes, they were TOO mostly Catholics!
    (4) I just know!
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  193. ARGUMENT FROM TODD BEAMER
    (1) Todd Beamer prayed "Our Father" with a switchboard operator after his flight was hijacked.
    (2) Todd Beamer was a hero.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  194. ARGUMENT FROM FALWELL
    (1) Jerry Falwell said some really stupid things after September 11th.
    (2) Then he apologized!
    (3) He was inspired by God to repent!
    (4) No, it had nothing to do with the public outcry!
    (5) Why?  Because God told me so!
    (6) Therefore, God exists.

  195. ARGUMENT FROM SCIENTISTS
    (1) Some famous scientists believed in God.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  196. ARGUMENT FROM FLOWERS, a.k.a. TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (VI)
    (1) That flower is pretty.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  197. ARGUMENT FROM INSTRUMENTATION
    (1) You are an Atheist.
    (2) You did something kind.
    (3) You are an instrument of God.
    (4) God exists.

  198. ARGUMENT FROM QUANTUM PHYSICS
    (1) Quantum physics uses an uncertainty principle.
    (2) There is room for God.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  199. ARGUMENT FROM THE 2nd LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS (I)
    (1) The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that a closed system tends to disorder.
    (2) The universe is ordered.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  200. ARGUMENT FROM SONGS
    (1) The song "America the Beautiful" has the line "God shed his grace on thee."
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  201. ARGUMENT FROM APOLOGETICS WEBPAGES
    (1) I was surfing the Net and came across this really cool webpage of apologetics.
    (2) Their arguments were stunning.  I couldn't refute them.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  202. ARGUMENT FROM COMFORT
    (1) All kinds of people have found comfort in religion.
    (2) That means there must be something there to give comfort to them.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  203. ARGUMENT FROM BILL O'REILLY
    (1) Atheism is challenging this country's Christian roots!
    (2) We are Christians!
    (3) We will make a big stink about this, and not let Atheists win!
    (4) We will win because God is on our side!
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  204. ARGUMENT FROM EXISTENTIAL LONELINESS
    (1) This can't be all there is to existence.
    (2) I mean it's so horrible, pointless, brutal and nasty.
    (3) It's all so depressing.
    (4) I'm lonely.
    (5) There has to be something else out there.
    (6) I mean it, there just has to be.
    (7) THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING ELSE OUT THERE!
    (8) ARRGGGG!!!  THERE JUST HAS TO BE!!!!
    (9) God!  He can be out there for me.
    (10) I'm not so lonely now!
    (11) Yay!
    (12) Therefore, God exists.

  205. ARGUMENT FROM SINS I LIKE, a.k.a. PERCHANCE'S SISTER'S ARGUMENT (IV)
    (1) I don't like abortion.
    (2) But this is just my opinion.
    (3) I want my opinion backed up with facts.
    (4) But in the absence of facts, morals will do.
    (5) Christians say abortion is a sin!  Yeah!  I have allies!
    (6) But for a sin to exist and Christians to be right, God must exist.
    (7) Therefore, God exists.

  206. ARGUMENT FROM CHRISTIAN SOLIPSISM
    (1) Nothing but Jesus is real.
    (2) See #1.

  207. The ARGUMENT FROM THE THRONE ROOM
    (1) Would you stand in the presence of a mighty king and demand that he prove he exists?
    (2) No?
    (3) That's what you're doing with God, you arrogant bastards.
    (4) I don't CARE that you can't see him!
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  208. ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF IMAGINATION
    (1) I couldn't imagine not believing in God.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  209. ARGUMENT FROM WOW
    (1) When I look into the sky and see all the pretty stars, all those galaxies...
    (2) Wow.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  210. ARGUMENT FROM ARMCHAIR PSYCHOANALYSIS
    (1) You say there's no God?
    (2) Ah, someone calling themselves Christian must have really hurt you in the past.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  211. ARGUMENT FROM CHRISTIAN EXPERTS ARE IGNORED
    (1) Dembski, Behe and Plantinga are ignored by mainstream intellectuals.
    (2) Only a fear of the truth could explain this.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  212. ARGUMENT FROM CHRISTIAN EXPERTS ARE NOT IGNORED
    (1) Mainstream intellectuals are paying some attention to Dembski, Behe and Plantinga.
    (2) Only a growing recognition of the truth could explain this.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  213. ARGUMENT FROM COUNTERFACTUAL EVIDENCE
    (1) You claim the evidence for Jesus' divinity is non-existent.
    (2) But if there were lots of evidence, you would still not be convinced.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  214. ARGUMENT FROM UNSEEN MIRACLES
    (1) Atheists wouldn't believe in God even if He showed up and performed a miracle for them.
    (2) See!  There was a miracle right over there!  Didn't you see it?
    (3) No?
    (4) You must be an Atheist.  Therefore, you cannot see miracles.
    (5) But miracles happen.  You just can't see them.
    (6) Likewise, God exists.  You just can't see Him, because you are so determined not to.
    (7) Therefore, God exists.

  215. ARGUMENT FROM WIND
    (1) You believe in wind.
    (2) But you can't see it.
    (3) God's the same way.
    (4) It IS TOO analogous!
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  216. ARGUMENT FROM WARREN ROBINETT
    (1) There's a secret message in the video game "Adventure."
    (2) It reveals that the game was Created By Warren Robinett.
    (3) It's the same way with the world.
    (4) Look for the secret messages, and you will find the World's Creator.
    (5) Therefore, God Exists.

  217. ARGUMENT FROM OFFENSIVENESS, a.k.a. GOODY2SHOES' ARGUMENT
    (1) You keep making statements that I think are generalizations, hypocritical, and bigoted.
    (2) I will only agree to stay if you stop that.
    (3) [Non-believer tries to be non-offensive.]
    (4) You're still offending me because of [insert random statement here].
    (5) [Non-believer rereads her posts before posting, posting when she thinks she is not being offensive.]
    (6) I'm offended!
    (7) [Non-believer tears her hair out trying to figure out how to be non-offensive.]
    (8) This conversation is just the two of us.  I think we should stop this conversation.
    (9) [Non-believer figures 'f**k it' and posts what she really thinks.]
    (10) WOW!  WHAT A BIGOT!  I'm leaving!
    (11) I have a spiritual victory.
    (12) Therefore, God exists.

  218. ARGUMENT FROM MULTIPLICITY (II), a.k.a. TERCEL'S ARGUMENT (II)
    (1) I have a large number of arguments for God.
    (2) There is a small chance that at least one of them is true.
    (3) Using voodoo probability calculations, this means that there is a much greater chance that all of them are true taken together!
    (4) And this ISN'T just the mathematical version of the Ontological Proof; I'm a real mathematician and you obviously can't understand this proof because you don't know as much about math as I do.
    (5) Oh, and don't confuse things by mentioning how many Atheistic arguments there are, and the probability of each of them being correct...
    (6) Or the fact that I basically pulled the probability of each of my arguments being correct out of my ass...
    (7) And admit that I know more about math than you, and you'll see that...
    (8) Therefore, God exists.

  219. ARGUMENT FROM TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES
    (1) One time, I was in deep emotional pain.
    (2) I prayed to God, and felt His presence.
    (3) You aren't going to deny my emotional pain, are you?
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  220. ARGUMENT FROM ABUSING THE BODY
    (1) One time, I fasted for three days straight, prayed on my knees for hours, and didn't sleep, either.
    (2) At the end of that time, God answered me.
    (3) You see, you just have to mortify the flesh and accept the things of the spirit in order to meet God.
    (4) No, there is no possibility that it was a hallucination!
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  221. ARGUMENT FROM ECSTASY (used by a number of saints)
    (1) I woke up last night with a feeling of indescribable pleasure and joy.
    (2) It couldn't have been sexual; I'm holy and never have thoughts like those.
    (3) So the ecstasy must have come from God.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  222. ARGUMENT FROM FEELING LOVE ALL AROUND, a.k.a. PERCHANCE'S SISTER'S ARGUMENT (V)
    (1) I can just feel love all around me.  I know the world is a good place, that people are essentially good, and that that comes from God.
    (2) I don't know how I know.  It's just there.  You've never felt it?
    (3) I don't know how I know.  Stop pestering me!
    (4) [Sheds tears until nasty non-believer goes away.]
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  223. ARGUMENT FROM MUSIC (could also be used for art)
    (1) You like classical music.
    (2) Classical composers wrote for God.
    (3) [Non-believer points out that they had to compose for the Church or they would have been executed.]
    (4) But they wrote for God and you like the music.
    (5) Therefore, God Exists.

  224. ARGUMENT FROM SADISM (I)
    (1) I enjoy beating children.
    (2) I find some justification for it in the Bible.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  225. ARGUMENT FROM SADISM (II), a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM MISOGYNY
    (1) I enjoy treating women like dirt.  It makes me feel powerful.
    (2) I find some justification for it in the Bible.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  226. ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE (II)
    (1) The Bible says the Bible is true.
    (2) Therefore the Bible is true.
    (3) The Bible says God exists.
    (4) Therefore, God exist.

  227. WILLIAM JAMES' ARGUMENT
    (1) We should give people the benefit of the doubt.
    (2) When someone says God exists, we should believe them.
    (3) A lot of people say God exists.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  228. PASCAL'S ARGUMENT, a.k.a. PASCAL'S WAGER
    (1) If God exists, it would be really cool.  (And I would win big-time.)
    (2) If God didn't exist, it would really suck.  (But I wouldn't lose much.)
    (3) Therefore, God exists.  (Or, at least I should believe in God because it's the best bet.)

  229. THE BIBLICAL PRESERVATION ARGUMENT
    (1) The Bible hasn't changed much since it was written.
    (2) Therefore everything in it must be true.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  230. ARGUMENT FROM BIBLICAL PROPHECY (II)
    (1) Jesus clearly fulfilled all the prophecies of the Jews.
    (2) I don't care if many stories were created to fulfill prophecy.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  231. THE STEWARDSHIP ARGUMENT
    (1) God gave us the earth to take care of.
    (2) We take care of it.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  232. ARGUMENT FROM THE 2nd LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS (II)
    (1) All systems become chaotic.
    (2) The Universe, too, will become chaotic.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  233. ARGUMENT FROM UNICORNS
    (1) Unicorns don't exist, especially invisible pink ones.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  234. ARGUMENT FROM THE MEANING OF LIFE
    (1) What's the meaning of life?
    (2) [Atheist gives her answer.]
    (3) That's not what I believe.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  235. ARGUMENT FROM LOGIC
    (1) There are some things in logic that you can't logically demonstrate.
    (2) Therefore you have to take them on faith.
    (3) Your faith in logic is the same as my faith in God.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  236. VELIKOVSKY'S ARGUMENT
    (1) If you twist the details enough, you can make a case for Venus or a comet causing the Biblical catastrophes.
    (2) Therefore the Bible is true.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  237. ARGUMENT FROM CAN'T-BE-A-RACIST
    (1) Martin Luther King, Jr. believed in God.
    (2) I don't think you want to say Dr. King was a fool, do you?
    (3) That's what I thought.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  238. ARGUMENT FROM JESUS’ TORTURE
    (1) No one ever, ever suffered as much as Jesus did on the cross.
    (2) No, not the victims of the Inquisition.
    (3) No, not the women burned at the stake or hanged as witches.
    (4) No, not all the people who died thinking they were going to Hell!!!
    (5) Who but God would suffer like that for us ungrateful, unworthy humans?
    (6) Therefore, God exists.

  239. ARGUMENT FROM SEVERABILITY, a.k.a. the True Scotsman Argument
    (1) Lots of ridiculous statements are made by people who only claim is to be Real Christians.
    (2) They just give Real Christians a bad name.
    (3) Real Christians don't believe <insert Biblical reference> is literally true.
    (4) But that doesn't mean the Bible isn't still mostly true.
    (5) And the Bible is the Word of God.
    (6) Therefore, God exists.

  240. ARGUMENT FROM BECAUSE
    (1) Because.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  241. ELABORATED ARGUMENT FROM BECAUSE
    (1) Because.
    (2) Because why?
    (3) Because!
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  242. ARGUMENT FROM "LET'S JUST BELIEVE," a.k.a. TAFFY LEWIS'S ARGUMENT (I)
    (1) All belief systems should be treated the same as the scientific one.
    (2) [non-believer: Why?]
    (3) Because they have their own grounds.
    (4) Anyway, that's my experience of how the world works.
    (5) [non-believer: It's not mine.  And why should you treat claims of unicorns less seriously than claims of gods?]
    (6) I don't believe there are unicorns.
    (7) But I believe there are gods.
    (8) Therefore, God exists.

  243. ARGUMENT FROM UNIQUE EXISTENCE
    (1) God exists but not in a way that anything else that exists exists.
    (2) Since there are no other things that exist as God exists, we are free to make up things about God's state of existence that ensure his continued non-observability
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  244. ARGUMENT FROM POSITIVE RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE, a.k.a. TAFFY LEWIS'S ARGUMENT (II)
    (1) More people have had positive religious experiences in the context of Western theism.
    (2) Therefore, God is kind, just, and all-loving.
    (3) [non-believer: What about the people who have had negative experiences?  Or experiences of God's non-existence?]
    (4) They don't count.
    (5) Therefore, God is just the way I describe him to be.
    (5a) Oh, yeah.  And God exists.

  245. ARGUMENT FROM RIGHTS
    (1) The Declaration of Independence founded the U.S.
    (2) Therefore, the Declaration of Independence is true.
    (3) The Declaration of Independence says that our rights are "endowed by our Creator."
    (4) George W. agrees with this.
    (5) You have rights, don't you???
    (6) Well where the f*** do you think they came from???
    (7) Therefore, God exists.

  246. ARGUMENT FROM FUTURE EVIDENCE
    (1) Look, I realize that it doesn't seem to make sense that there would logically be a God.
    (2) However, I know He's real, and that in the future I think that maybe something will happen probably that will show you all.
    (3) Therefore, God Exists.

  247. ARGUMENT FROM POSTULATE
    (1) To fully understand the following demonstration, you must first assume that God exists.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  248. ARGUMENT FROM POOR TYPING SKILLS
    (1) In tihs essae ill demnstrate that gOd exsits in a way tat's so sure thatno athesit can PSOosibly reftue. J will firts dwmonsrtate waht we canaSSUme fo rGod exisnce,,then how wwe can refute anya rgument wihch pretends teh contrrary to eb true,tehn wel'l expose scinetific evidnece thatGod eeexists then we'll cnolcude. yOU will fnid an acurate&up6to6date bibliography no teh page 43 of tihs essay;i Sugegst yu to pritn iths doculent for a mroe confortable raeding.
    (2) [Atheist doesn't bother to read it.]
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  249. ARGUMENT FROM UNTRANSLATED OLD FRENCH
    (1) « Mais pourceque j'avois dιjΰ connu en moi trθs clairement que la nature intelligente est distincte de la corporelle; considιrant que toute composition tιmoigne de la dιpendance, et que la dιpendance est manifestement un dιfaut, je jugeois de lΰ que ce ne pouvoit κtre une perfection en Dieu d'κtre composι de ces deux natures, et que par consιquent il ne l'ιtoit pas; mais que s'il y avoit quelques corps dans le monde, ou bien quelques intelligences ou autres natures qui ne fussent point toutes parfaites, leur κtre devoit dιpendre de sa puissance, en telle sorte quelles ne pouvoient subsister sans lui un seul moment. — Renι Descartes, Discours de la Mιthode
    (2) How could you possibly refute that?
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  250. ARGUMENT FROM CLEVER USE OF VOCABULARY
    (1) Many Atheists will not be convinced by an argument with "Therefore, God exists" as its conclusion.
    (2) Consequently, God exists.

  251. ARGUMENT FROM IGNORANCE, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL INCREDULITY (III)
    (1) I don't understand evolution; I mean how could there be nothing then something?
    (2) (Well informed Atheist gives articulate explanation of evolution and gently explains that the beginning of the universe has nothing to do with evolution.)
    (3) Well it seems way too complicated and unlikely to me.  Plus I don't want to live my life thinking I evolved from a monkey.
    (4) Therefore, God exists and Jesus died for our sins.
    (5) (Atheist argues that theist's ignorance of evolution does not logically lead to the conclusion that there is a god, let alone the Christian god.)
    (6) Says you!  God bless.
    (7) Therefore, God exists.

  252. ARGUMENT FROM CHURCH
    (1) Lots of people go to church.
    (2) Therefore, God exists.

  253. ARGUMENT FROM PHOTO-OP, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE (II)
    (1) A couple of godless commie federal judges ruled the 1954 inclusion of "under God" in the Pledge unconstitutional.
    (2) Almost immediately thereafter, the whole U.S. Senate recited the Pledge, including "under God," on the Capitol steps.
    (3) The Senators' conduct was not — I repeat, NOT — mere political posturing and/or vote whoring.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  254. ARGUMENT FROM DEFENESTRATION
    (1) If God exists, then He will protect me if I jump out this third story window.
    (2) However, you will not be so fortunate, unsaved heathen!
    (3) *shove*
    (4) See!  God didn't protect you, just like I predicted!  Any counterarguments, heathen?
    (5) No?  Therefore, God exists.

  255. ARGUMENT FROM MUSHROOMS
    (1) This pizza tastes funny.
    (2) That purple llama on the ceiling is juggling chainsaws.
    (3) Purple llamas can't juggle chainsaws.
    (4) It must be a miracle!
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  256. ARGUMENT FROM MYTHOLOGY
    (1) The old religions were wrong.
    (2) The old religions didn't believe in the same god as me.
    (3) Therefore, I must be right.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  257. ARGUMENT FROM ACCUSATION
    (1) The Bible says that everyone knows God exists.
    (2) Therefore, YOU know that God exists.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  258. ARGUMENT FROM NOT-BELIEVING
    (1) The New Testament says people like you would question us.
    (2) You question us.
    (3) Therefore the Bible is true.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  259. ARGUMENT FROM BANANAS (RAY COMFORT'S ARGUMENT)
    (1) Bananas have many characteristics that make them attractive as primate food.
    (2) They're so good that they must have been designed, just like Coke cans.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.

  260. ARGUMENT FROM METEORS (PAT ROBERTSON'S ARGUMENT)
    (1) God hates gay people.
    (2) God is merciful.
    (3) Disney World held a Gay Day parade.
    (4) God could punish Disney World by sending hurricanes, earthquakes, and possibly a meteor to Florida.
    (5) God didn't, thus proving both postulates 1 and 2.
    (6) Therefore, God exists.

  261. ARGUMENT FROM COAL MINERS (I)
    (1) A bunch of miners got trapped.
    (2) A bunch of people worked around the clock for a week to rescue them.
    (3) They were all found alive.
    (4) It must have been a miracle!
    (5) Only God could have done that.
    (6) Therefore, God exists.

  262. ARGUMENT FROM COAL MINERS (II), a.k.a. YOU ONLY HEAR FROM THE SURVIVORS (I)
    (1) A bunch of miners got trapped.
    (2) A bunch of people worked hard to rescue them.
    (3) One was found alive.
    (4) He thanked God for his survival.
    (5) Only God could have done that.
    (6) Therefore, God exists.

  263. ARGUMENT FROM AIRPLANE CRASH, a.k.a. YOU ONLY HEAR FROM THE SURVIVORS (II)
    (1) An airplane I was on crashed, killing most passengers.
    (2) I survived!
    (3) It was a MIRACLE!
    (4) Only God could have done that.
    (5) Therefore, God exists.

  264. ARGUMENT FROM YOUTH GROUP MINISTER
    (1) God is awesome!
    (2) Like, totally, dude!
    (3) Therefore, God, like, exists and stuff.

  265. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL INABILITY
    (1) The Bible says Jesus turned water into wine.
    (2) Can you turn water into wine?
    (3) No?  Well there ya go.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.

  266. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL ABILITY
    (1)

    -------------
    "Λάθε Βιώσας"
    Επίκουρος

    "Tabula Rassa"

Posted By: Northman
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 07:09

Thank you - thats on topic!

Oh - by the way, are you sure your revalition providing those tablets wasnt a "How To Copy and Paste"-instruction instead? It appears that your skills within that field are quite recently updated.

As you are a fairly new member, let me inform you that whenever we copy from other sites, its necessesary to provide the source also.
I'm sure you can appreciate that.
 
 


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Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 07:10
Originally posted by Greek Hoplite

Originally posted by Epikoureios

It was the Romans, not the Hellenes, that persecuted the early Christians for defecting from the Roman Army and discontinue to fight for the Empire,
Ι do not think that only Romans persecuted Christians, but and other paganists (at least unofficialy) and do not forget that after 212 AD all the residents of the empire were roman citizens.But as i said i don t agree with todays creteria  for the barbaric actions of christians against paganists but maybe that age i would have different reasons and criteria for these actions.
You must be aware by now that your statement "(at least unofficialy)" and the fact you are not providing any proofs to back up your assertions, it throws your entire argument out the window?
Originally posted by Epikoureios

As a matter of fact, I have some questions to ask you, and if you're kind enough, please make an effort to enlighten an idiot like me.
I am expecting your answers:
These are actions of men not God's actions.If you know God does not want to tell people what to do because people have the freedom of choice.
[/QUOTE]
What freedom of choice are you talking about? Have you read your Bible lately? Before they even gave you your first name when they baptized you, they gave you a title "the servant (slave) of god"!!!


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"Λάθε Βιώσας"
Επίκουρος

"Tabula Rassa"

Posted By: Epikoureios
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 07:12
Hey moderator, you didn't think for a moment that I would sit here, make up and type all this crap, but I thought it was a very good answer to your periplectic autarchism (and by looking at your reaction, I was right). The reason I didn't post my source was that I didn't think you would appreciate a link of a heathen/idolatric/atheist site in your church/synagogue/mosque, but if you insist:
(Adapted from a forum on the http://www.infidels.org/ - Internet Infidels .)
And btw, I also had a revelation on how to spot a moron from a mile away!
 
 
Perhaps you would like to answer my questions now that Chilivergas bailed out. At least try.
ROTFL


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"Λάθε Βιώσας"
Επίκουρος

"Tabula Rassa"

Posted By: Richard XIII
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 07:26
Life is more complicated than mathematics so undoubtedly Godel theorems work in real life. 

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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

Albert Einstein

Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 07:33
Richard, for a theorem to work needs to be proven. Godel theorems were proven only for some formal systems. If you can prove their extension to real life, then I'm sure no one here would have an objection to their appliance in real life.

Posted By: Richard XIII
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 07:47
Mathematics is an oversimplified model of natural fenomena (using physics, chemestry...) and if in a simplified model Godel theorems work they will still work in the real life. 

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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

Albert Einstein


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