Europe oldest village
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Archaeology & Anthropology
Forum Discription: Topics on archaeology and anthropology
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11355
Printed Date: 28-Apr-2024 at 02:47
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Topic: Europe oldest village
Posted By: Paul
Subject: Europe oldest village
Date Posted: 30-Apr-2006 at 20:31
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In the late 60's -early 70's archaeologist Henry de Lumley uncovered a series of 10 huge buildings ranging from 7-16 m. long and 4 -7 m. wide, at Terra Amata near Nice in France. The buildings all had hearths, a sleeping area, fossilized human faeces, piles of bones and coprolites and considerable amounts of Acheulean stone tools as well as their debitage was found in a work area. The bones found mostly came from ancient elephants, meadow rhinoceros, deer, stag, rabbit, and wild boar as well as smaller mammals. In addition lots of seasonal seed were found too. The buildings have been estimated as being between 380,000 and 400,000 thousand years old and the culprit for the construction Homo Erectus. Apart from the obvious value of the finds, giving the finest insight into the life of Homo Erectus and showing them to be far more advanced than anyone ever perceived, another issue was raised. Just how much communication would these ancestors of man have needed to create a community of this complexity. When speech was first used has been a constant topic of debate amongst archaeologists. The first clear evidence being 50,000 year ago and modern humans responcible. However there are no biological reason why ancestors of humans couldn't talk. So Terra Amata may be the first evidence that language wasn't a human invention.
Homo Erectus (middle)
 ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Replies:
Posted By: Goban
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 03:33
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It would definitely indicate an advanced form of communication, most logically speech. This means of course that sapiens were telling jokes and swapping sea stories with neandertals around the campfire... ------------- The sharpest spoon in the drawer. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 08:03
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Least we know what a Neanderthal might say "Oh no, Cromagnons have moved into the neighbourhood, that'll bring the cave prices down" ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 05-May-2006 at 19:36
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good humour ------------- |
Posted By: Maljkovic
Date Posted: 06-May-2006 at 15:39
| I don't think it required speach to acomplish the task. |
Posted By: Goban
Date Posted: 07-May-2006 at 00:26
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I don't know. Such a structure would probably have been built by multiple individuals. Certainly some advanced form of communication had to have been used. Vocal communication makes sense, even if actual speech was 'theoretically' impossible (improbable). But millions of people today can express themselves admirably using sign language. Primates too for that matter... ------------- The sharpest spoon in the drawer. |
Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2011 at 21:27
| Why is it thought this complex living is Homo Erectus? |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2011 at 09:25
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There being no physiological reason that they couldn't speak, why not? Communication between individuals does not need a complex vocabulary. Has anyone ever had an experience with "Twin Speak"? My wife's nieces wre Ident. twins, by the time they were 2 they had their own language which they used to communicate with each other. Their mother was able to pick up some of it and she used it to communicate with them until they were about 3-4. This isn't uncommon.
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2011 at 09:33
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Topic: Europe oldest village Now i know my ansestors were citizens for sure.  |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2011 at 09:33
I assume that they found remains buried close enough to the habitation site. But that's a good question. Another good question is, if they could achieve that level of sophistication, What went wrong? Why did they not continue into the present?
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2011 at 09:37
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And yet again, another good question, Could they have evolved enough to have established a civilization? Only to be wiped out by the Toba eruption? Hmmm.
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2011 at 10:22
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I questioned if the inhabitants were Homo Erectus, because of the discovery of other human species. So unless there are bones that clearly identify the inhabitants, I don't think we should jump to the conclusion the site is Homo Erectus. I checked a few sites and see no mention of the inhabitants being Homo Erectus. Also I think there is a difference between communication and have a language. My dog has learned to stay to the right, because I get very upset if he goes to the left. But he has no idea why I get upset if he goes to the right or crosses the street to chase a squirre, so he doesn't pay attention to the rules, it he thinks I am not looking. My 2 year old great grandson was even harder to train and at age 3 still doesn't get it. Come to think of it, it is quite amazing language caught on, considering the difficulty in associating mean with a sound, beyond communicating pleasure or displeasure with another. "Put the pole here, large end down", can only be communicated with pointing and pleasure or displeasure. It can not become language, such as a modern day foreman would use, without an intellectual leap. I don't think Homo Erectus made that leap, but Neanderthal did. Apes make nest and they work together as social beings, and bonobo are even better at cooperation. I would expect Homo Erectus to do was well, but I think building a hut is beyond the intellectual of Homo Erectus, because of the complexity of getting everything together, so the sticks don't fall. That would be pushing the IQ limits. And then because there are different species of everything else, we might expect different species of humans. |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2011 at 10:36
I agree. As a side note, some early claims of sophisticated tool manufacture / use by Homo Erectus have also been refuted or retracted.
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Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2011 at 10:45
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Yes, at least one Internet site about the huts argued, later camps could have gotten mingled with the earliest ones, because of natural causes over time. However, I may have to eat my words, because evidently Homo Erectus did swim. According to the aquatic theory, during an extremely long heat wave some ape like creatures took to the water, and these would be the ones that became humans. Here is that theory: http://survive2012.com/index.php/aquatic-ape.html This could have given Homo Erectus all the experience and abilities I doubted he had. Also remember Cro-Magnon? Checking out the subject, I came along an explanation of Cro-Magnon, in the same area. The term Cro-Magnon has fallen out of favor, but for me it makes sense to speak of them as a tribe that once occupied area. They are thought to come much later than Homo Erectus which appears to be the only known species old enough to have built the huts, but I don't think at this point we have enough evident to be sure Homo Erectus built the huts. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2011 at 11:50
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The claims about the campsites being mingled early with later is a bunch of hogwash. They are saying that later worked it's way to the level of early? And early came to the top? It doesn't work that way.
After seeing Athena's post, I went off on a quest to find an opposing view. Couldn't find anything worth the effort.
None of the sites I visited even mentioned Erectus in relation to Terra Amata. The Smithsonian skirts the issue entirely.
I think what's happened[my opinion only] with the realization that Human Ev. isn't linear a lot of earlier discoveries were reviewed and some conclusions had to be thrown out or drastically adjusted. It also has made a few folk a little cautious about radical claims.
Athena wrote-
I can not imagine an animal that can not swim venturing into boats to cross water.
Why not? Humans do it all the time. If you want to cross the water to see what's on the other side and you can't swim, a boat is the only alternative. And I think that a more accurate statement would be, Some apes can't swim, as there are 2-3 species that have been known to take to the water under certain circumstances. If not more accurate, certainly less contentious.
 Old Anthropological proverb- " Avoid absolutes. It makes you a smaller target". Author Unknown.
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2011 at 12:36
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You are missing first universal speaking language in the world.Signs that are positions of fingers and arms,also characteristic lines of human body.We still use them like "body talk".But once they were part of official social communication.Two persons communicated parallel using there voices and arms. |
Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2011 at 16:41
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I just watched a movie called Ice World. It is a NetFlix DVD about how the ice age effected humans. It is a fiction about two men and woman based on the latest discoveries, and it brings these three from an isolated hunting site, where everyone else died because of the ice conditions, to a meeting place for hunter gathers where things did not go so well, to the first village. All humans are portrayed as modern humans. The movie did stress the village meant a significant change in the way of life and social organization. What kind of changes might we expect between the hunter gathers and settled people? |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2011 at 17:12
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Let us define question backwards:What will happen with few survived units after large scale disaster on earth?Modern supply with living products they will loose,clothes,heating systems etc.etc.They need to start again from zero point.After few generations their ancestors will have Atlantis story like a past. Generations after them this will become myth of lost civilization,different than one they belong. Survival erase memories no matter whatever you were before.All that are parts of so called transitional countries have seen that with their own eyes:Professors with degree were driving taxi one shift more to earn for life in night shift.On daylight they were professors.But here everything that was their world is gone.Welcome to the world of basic instincts and technology improvisations!You know to build a gun but you can't cause it is not a time for that. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2011 at 09:55
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I'm not sure I agree with you on the bit about survival erasing memories. I might agree that it loses details. I truly believe that we are cursed with the collective memory of a mega disaster that occurred sometime in the last 30,000 years. There are people who believe we are missing a huge chunk of our past. I'm one of them.
Why are we so quick to attribute advanced technology to alien visitations? We have a tendency to underestimate our own abilities.
Here is another idea to chew on, is it possible that Homo Erectus had a choice? Could he have lived in the manner that he did because he wanted to? Not having thought of this until now, I don't offhand have any alternatives lined up. But as a near human ancestor choice can't be ruled out.
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Pytheus
Date Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 18:41
| Why the last 30,000 years. There was the Toba super volcano that erupted 70,000 years ago and killed almost every human on earth, they estimate only 10,000 survivors. |
Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 19:37
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Thank you for that information, Pytheus. The wikipedia explanation of the event is interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory I thought the ice age reduced human populations, but was not aware of the volcano also reducing populations of living species. This should be interesting to everyone: http://anthropology.net/?s=Jwalapuram&searchsubmit=Find+%C2%BB |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 26-Mar-2011 at 02:44
| Archeology have scratched less than 0.000000000001% of Earth's surface till now so all our arguments are premature and obsolete in same time! |
Posted By: earln7
Date Posted: 28-Apr-2011 at 23:43
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Certainly some advanced form of communication had
to have been used. Vocal communication makes sense, even if actual
speech was 'theoretically' impossible (improbable). But millions of
people today can express themselves admirably using sign language. ======================== post edited by Moderator. You need to obtain prior permission from the administrator to post links in your signature. This is sop to deter spamming. We appreciate your cooperation..Thank you and welcome to the forum. Centrix Vigilis
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