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Why not Pan-Turkism?

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Topic: Why not Pan-Turkism?
Posted By: Feramez
Subject: Why not Pan-Turkism?
Date Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 22:14
Why isn't discussion about Pan-Turkism allowed in the steppe?  Everytime I see someone make a post about it it's always closed.  So don't close this topic, I just want to know why it's not allowed.

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For Turks, the homeland isn't Turkey, nor yet Turkistan. Their country is a vast, eternal land: Turan!
-Ziya Gokalp-
http://groups.myspace.com/TurkWorld - TÜRK DÜNYASI Forum, join today.



Replies:
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 04:30
Why not Pan-Kurdism? Pan-Iranism, Pan-anything?  Because they all turn ugly.

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Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 04:51
becuase we already know what  it  leads to. every body is turk. actually all pans are crap.


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 09:36

I'll share a few reasons as to why I have been closing nationalistic threads.

The Steppe forum covers historical empires, cultures and peoples. It is not a format to spread pan nationalism of any sort. When a political discussion thread is created regarding the unification of specific ethnicities based on common language or culture then it may may opened in the current events/international relations forum. Though I advise against it since such pipe dreams turn into an ethnic battleground on AE. Political and economical unifications are viable in todays multicultural structure and alliances. Ethnic ultranationalism isn't.



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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 09:40
well said.


Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 13:53
Originally posted by Seko

I'll share a few reasons as to why I have been closing nationalistic threads.

The Steppe forum covers historical empires, cultures and peoples. It is not a format to spread pan nationalism of any sort. When a political discussion thread is created regarding the unification of specific ethnicities based on common language or culture then it may may opened in the current events/international relations forum. Though I advise against it since such pipe dreams turn into an ethnic battleground on AE. Political and economical unifications are viable in todays multicultural structure and alliances. Ethnic ultranationalism isn't.

my thoughts as well.



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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 14:10

Well that topic is boring, Some want turan and another dont want. That is all.

what can you discuss?



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 04:14

 First of all if you say 'if you aren't agree with me your idea is ugly' this forum can't be a free discussion forum and you can't learn the truth.

 Today's world is capitalist and governed by big companies. First of all pan Turkist are against these. They don't want to be be puppets of big companies.  They want to be powerful and free.

 Second : They want to unite (economicly or geographicly) with the other Turkic populations. They don't want to invade any other country or want any colonies.

 Pan Turkism isn't like the other nationalist movements. They want what is theirs. Not anyting much or less.

 What's bad ? Why a man(especially a Turk) doesn't want turan? I don't understand.



Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 04:18

first of all the stepp forum is about history, pan tukism or turan will not fit there , such topics are to be in the intellectual discussion forums.

 



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 04:27

 I don't agree with you .Panturkism or Turan is very related to history. It is what our history teached us. We can't stand against it.

 And It isn't related racism or fascism. I think It is like turning back and find the truth.



Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 04:31

then it depends on what you are talking about,

if you are talking about possible future union between turkish countries then this belong to intellectual discussion forum

if you are talking about past union between turkish countries or an attempt to forum a union in the past then it belong to Stepps forum.

hope that is clear enough for you.

 



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 04:43

 Then can't we discuss what the history tell us about the future? Don't you think future and history are two related topics?

 (I changed my nickname, I think there is a member named Altay)



Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 04:53

as long as the MAIN stream of the topic is about history then it fits in the stepp section

if its about future plans and future achievements and a littel about history then it belong to the intellectual discussion

by the way intellectual discussion is just below its not in another link.

i dont see whats the big deal here really.

 



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 08:56

Originally posted by Feramez

Why isn't discussion about Pan-Turkism allowed in the steppe?  Everytime I see someone make a post about it it's always closed.  So don't close this topic, I just want to know why it's not allowed.

Feramez I am not really aware about Pan-Turkism.I have a suggestion for you.If you really want to discuss Pan-Turkism request the moderators very politely to have a Greater Turkey section in the Topics by region or time period part of this forum.There is already a

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=9 - Greater Iran    section so I am sure they won't object.



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Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 09:23
The section "Greater Iran" is a geographical  description not a political one.  And people dont post Iranian articles there pan-Iranism there...and Iran has been a place where many ancient Iranian Empires have risen and  fallen. If you have a Greater Turkey section, who have have been in Anatolia  for only 800 years, then you ignore all other nations who have created states there 2000 years before the arrival of the Turks. And lastly...do I sense jealousy? 

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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 18:27

greater iran is a geographical term and allows us not only to talk about the near east but central asia as well as other regions. unlike greater turkey (whatever that is LOL) or turkistan, it has not nationalistic pan meaning.

also, i would like to tell feramez and other pan turks here that there are literrally thousands of pan turk websites on the internet. if they want to talk about their crazy ideas they can do it on one of those instead of spreading their bs here.

question for pan turks:

why do you guys use the term turan? turan is an iranic word, isnt that ironic? LOL



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Behi
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 19:07

Originally posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Iran

Greater Iran (in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language" title="Persian language - Persian : ایران بزرگ pron: Iran-e Bozorg, also ایران‌زم 40;ن pron: Iran-zameen) is a term for the entire region where http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages" title="Iranian languages - Iranian languages were once or are today spoken, as well as areas that were part of Persia and/or the Persian Empire. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedia_Iranica" title="Encyclopedia Iranica - Encyclopedia Iranica uses the term Iranian Cultural Continent http://www.college.columbia.edu/cct/nov03/features5.php" class="external autonumber" title="http://www.college.columbia.edu/cct/nov03/features5.php - [1] , and other names such as Greater Persia or Persian cultural continent have also been used, especially in Afghanistan and Tajikistan.

Traditionally, and until recent times, ethnicity has never been a defining separating criteria in these regions. In the words of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nelson_Frye" title="Richard Nelson Frye - Richard Nelson Frye :

"Many times I have emphasized that the present peoples of central Asia, whether Iranian or Turkic speaking, have one culture, one religion, one set of social values and traditions with only language separating them."

Only in modern times did western colonial intervention and ethnicity tend to become a dividing force between the provinces of Greater Iran. But "Greater Iran" was more of a cultural super-state, rather than a political one to begin with.

Obviously, "Greater Iran" has had no fixed boundaries, nor even a fixed definition. While some sources specifically define Greater Iran to include the current republics of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran" title="Iran - Iran , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan" title="Afghanistan - Afghanistan , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Azerbaijan" title="Republic of Azerbaijan - Republic of Azerbaijan , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia" title="Central Asia - Central Asian Republics http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Celebrations/noruz.htm" class="external autonumber" title="http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Celebrations/noruz.htm - [2] , other sources such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nelson_Frye" title="Richard Nelson Frye - Richard Nelson Frye give a more broader definition and define it to have included "much of the Caucasus, Afghanistan, and Central Asia, with cultural influences extending to China, India, and the semitic speaking world." According to Frye, "Iran means all lands and peoples where Iranian languages were and are spoken, and where in the past, multi-faceted Iranian cultures existed." (p.xi, Gretaer Iran).

In the work Nuzhat al-Qolub (نزهه القلوب, the medieval geographer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdollah_Mostowfi" title="Hamdollah Mostowfi - Hamdollah Mostowfi writes:

چند شهر است اندر ایران مرتفع تر از همه
Some cities of Iran are better than the rest,
بهتر و سازنده تر از خوشی آب و هوا
these have pleasant and compromising weather,
گنجه پر گنج در اران صفاهان در عراق
The wealthy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganjeh" title="Ganjeh - Ganjeh of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arran_%28Azerbaijan%29" title="Arran (Azerbaijan) - Arran , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isfahan" title="Isfahan - Isfahan as well,
در خراسان مرو و طوس در روم باشد اقسرا
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merv" title="Merv - Merv and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tus" title="Tus - Tus in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khorasan" title="Khorasan - Khorasan , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konya" title="Konya - Konya (Aqsara) too.

Provinces of Greater Iran (Persia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia" title="Central Asia - Central Asia

"Khwarazm is one of the regions of Iran-zameen, and is the home of the ancient Iranians, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airyanem_Vaejah" title="Airyanem Vaejah - Airyanem Vaejah , according to the ancient book of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta" title="Avesta - Avesta ." (Homayoun, p.111)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajikistan" title="Tajikistan - Tajikistan

The national anthem in Tajikistan, " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surudi_Milli" title="Surudi Milli - Surudi Milli ", attests to the Perso-Tajik identity, which has seen a large revival, after the breakup of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR" title="USSR - USSR . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajik_language" title="Tajik language - Their language is almost identical to that spoken in Afghanistan and Iran, and their cities have Persian names, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dushanbe" title="Dushanbe - Dushanbe , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isfara" title="Isfara - Isfara (Esfarayen), and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolyab" title="Kolyab - Kolyab ( http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/ot_grp8/ot_kulab_20050727.html" class="external autonumber" title="http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/ot_grp8/ot_kulab_20050727.html - [4] ).

Some experts even argue that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajiks" title="Tajiks - Tajiks are culturally closer to the Persian original root, as the Iranians to the west have mingled and mixed with the Arabs over the years.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan" title="Afghanistan - Afghanistan

Afghans take pride in being close descendants of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan" title="Aryan - Aryans , or to be more precise: Ariana - the Greek pronunciation of the ancient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta" title="Avesta - Avestan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airyanem_Vaejah" title="Airyanem Vaejah - Airyanem Vaejah or the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit" title="Sanskrit - Sanskrit "Aryavarta", Land of the Aryans. Today this Old-Persian, and Avestan expression is preserved in the name of the Afghan national airline, Ariana Airlines. The term 'Ariana Afghanistan' is still popular amongst many people in the country.

Afghanistan was part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Khorasan" title="Greater Khorasan - Greater Khorasan , and hence was recognized with the name Khorasan (along with regions centered around Merv and Neishabur), which in Pahlavi means "The Eastern Land" (خاور زمین in Persian). ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehkhoda_dictionary" title="Dehkhoda dictionary - Dehkhoda dictionary , p8457)

Afghanistan is where http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkh" title="Balkh - Balkh is located, home of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi" title="Rumi - Rumi , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khajeh_Abdollah_Ansari" title="Khajeh Abdollah Ansari - Khajeh Abdollah Ansari , and where many other notables in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_literature" title="Persian literature - Persian literature came from. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dari" title="Dari - Dari language of Afghanistan, is a closely related dialect of the Persian language. It is widely spoken in Afghanistan.

At the latest, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasereddin_Shah" title="Nasereddin Shah - Nasereddin Shah lost control of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herat" title="Herat - Herat to the British in 1857.

ززابل به کابل رسید آن زمان
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabul" title="Zabul - Zabul he arrived to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabul" title="Kabul - Kabul
گرازان و خندان و دل شادمان
Strutting, happy, and mirthful
--- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdowsi" title="Ferdowsi - Ferdowsi in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahnama" title="Shahnama - Shahnama


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmenistan" title="Turkmenistan - Turkmenistan

Home of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthians" title="Parthians - Parthian Empire ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisa%2C_Turkmenistan" title="Nisa, Turkmenistan - Nysa ). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merv" title="Merv - Merv is also where the half-Persian caliph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mamun" title="Al-Mamun - al-Mamun moved his capital to, inorder to move the center of the caliphate away from Arab speaking lands. The city of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashgabat" title="Ashgabat - Eshgh Abad is yet another Persian word meaning "city of love", and like Iran, Afghanistan, and Uzbekistan, it was once part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airyanem_Vaejah" title="Airyanem Vaejah - Airyanem Vaejah .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbekistan" title="Uzbekistan - Uzbekistan

The famous cities of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrasiab" title="Afrasiab - Afrasiab , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukhara" title="Bukhara - Bukhara , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarkand" title="Samarkand - Samarkand , are located here. Many experts point to these cities as the birthplace of modern Persian language. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samanid" title="Samanid - Samanids , who claimed inheritance to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid" title="Sassanid - Sassanids , had their capital built here.

ای بخارا شاد باش و دیر زی
Oh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukhara" title="Bukhara - Bukhara ! Joy to you and live long!
شاه زی تو میهمان آید همی
Your King comes to you in ceremony.
--- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudaki" title="Rudaki - Rudaki


Western China

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang" title="Xinjiang - Xinjiang regions of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China" title="China - China harbored a Persian population and culture. (See p443 of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedia_Iranica" title="Encyclopedia Iranica - E.I. for Persian settlements in southwestern China) and also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-China_relations" title="Iran-China relations - Iran-China relations for more links on the historical ties.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan" title="Kurdistan - Kurdish regions

The Kurdish regions in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq" title="Iraq - Iraq and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey" title="Turkey - Turkey are entwined with the culture and history of that of the rest of Greater Iran. The Kurds and Lurs of Iran are spread out through many provinces, and are thought to also be closely descended from the Aryan tribes of antiquity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardashir_I_of_Persia" title="Ardashir I of Persia - Ardashir I of Persia was born from a Kurdish mother of the Shabankareh tribe of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fars_Province" title="Fars Province - Fars Province .


Northwest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan" title="Pakistan - Pakistan

Many remains of Persian architecture still remain in these areas ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wazir_Khan_Mosque" title="Wazir Khan Mosque - (e.g.) ), and up to 1 million "Eastern Farsi" speakers still exist. http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=PK" class="external autonumber" title="http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=PK - [5]

The scholar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Iqbal" title="Muhammad Iqbal - Muhammad Iqbal of Lahore is considered a heavyweight of contemporary Persian literature.

These regions however are more considered as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persianate" title="Persianate - Persianate lands, rather than directly being associated with Greater Iran.


Parts of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus" title="Caucasus - Caucasus region

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid" title="Sassanid - Sassanid remains can be seen up far north as " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derbent" title="Derbent - Darband ", now in southern Russia (the words http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daghestan" title="Daghestan - Daghestan and darband are both Persian). These parts were mostly annexed by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Russia" title="Imperial Russia - Imperial Russia over the course of the 18th and 19th centuries. yet even today, most of these regions continue to retain their Greater Persian identity, as can be seen in their traditions and customs (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norouz" title="Norouz - Norouz ). For a discussion see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedia_Iranica" title="Encyclopedia Iranica - Encyclopedia Iranica 's "Caucasus Iran" article, p.84-96.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan" title="Azerbaijan - Azerbaijan

Separated from Iran in the mid-1800s, by virtue of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulistan_Treaty" title="Gulistan Treaty - Gulistan Treaty and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmanchai_treaty" title="Turkmanchai treaty - Turkmanchai treaty . The city of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku" title="Baku - Baku (Bād-kubeh) is another city with an originally Persian name. The word Azerbaijan itself is from the Persian "Azar-Padegan" (Atropatan).

Despite the annexation of this area by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Russia" title="Imperial Russia - Imperial Russia , the main part of Azerbaijan remians inside the modern day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran" title="Iran - Iran .

گزیده هر چه در ایران بزرگان
زآذربایگ&a mp;# 1575;ن و ری و گرگان

All the nobles and greats of Iran,
Choose from Azarbaijan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray%2C_Iran" title="Ray, Iran - Ray , and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgan" title="Gorgan - Gorgan .
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vis_o_Ramin" title="Vis o Ramin - Vis o Ramin


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia" title="Armenia - Armenia

Armenia was a province of Greater Persia since the times of the Achaemenid empire. See p.417-483 of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedia_Iranica" title="Encyclopedia Iranica - Encyclopedia Iranica for a lengthy discussion on this topic. (see also http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/sup/Persians_Armenia.html" class="external text" title="http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/sup/Persians_Armenia.html - here ). Iran continues to have a sizeable Armenian minority.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhichevan" title="Nakhichevan - Nakhichevan

Early in antiquity, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narseh_of_Persia" title="Narseh of Persia - Narseh of Persia is known to have had fortifications built here. In later times, some of Persia's literary and intellectual figures from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajar" title="Qajar - Qajar period have hailed from this region. Also separated from Greater-Iran/Persia in the mid-1800s, by virtue of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulistan_Treaty" title="Gulistan Treaty - Gulistan Treaty and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmanchai_treaty" title="Turkmanchai treaty - Turkmanchai treaty .

که تا جایگه یافتی نخچوان
Oh Nakhchivan, respect youve attained,
بدین شاه شد بخت پیرت جوان
With this King in luck youll remain.
--- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizami" title="Nizami - Nizami


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_%28country%29" title="Georgia (country) - Georgia and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetia" title="Ossetia - Ossetia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_%28country%29" title="Georgia (country) - Georgia , or "Gorjestan" was a Persian Province during http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid" title="Sassanid - Sassanid times (particularly starting with Hormozd IV). During the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid" title="Safavid - Safavid era, Georgia became so culturally intertwined with Iran that they almost repalced the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qezelbash" title="Qezelbash - Qezelbash in the Safavid courts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language" title="Persian language - Persian language was even the official administrative language of Georgia in the time of Shah Tahmasb, and Allah-verdi Khan, whom the famous landmark of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33_pol" title="33 pol - 33 pol in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isfahan_%28city%29" title="Isfahan (city) - Isfahan is named after, was among the Georgian elite that were involved in the Safavid government. Georgia was again a direct province of Persia from 1629 until 1762 when the Russian influence arrived.

The aforementioned is especially true of "Eastern Georgia". Eastern Georgia historically was attached to the south for support, as opposed to Western Georgia, which looked for help to the North. The city of "Teflis" (now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tbilisi" title="Tbilisi - Tbilisi ) was Persianized for quite some time. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajar" title="Qajar - Qajarid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbas_Mirza" title="Abbas Mirza - Abbas Mirza spent much time there.

In the end, Persia was unable to challenge Russia in Georgia, and officially gave up claim to Georgia according to the text of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulistan_Treaty" title="Gulistan Treaty - Gulistan Treaty and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmanchai_treaty" title="Turkmanchai treaty - Turkmanchai treaty . Today, Georgia continues to be Europeanized.

For a lengthy discussion, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedia_Iranica" title="Encyclopedia Iranica - Encyclopedia Iranica 's reference on Gorjestan: http://www.iranica.com/articles/v10f5/v10f504a.html" class="external autonumber" title="http://www.iranica.com/articles/v10f5/v10f504a.html - [6]


Modern-Day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq" title="Iraq - Iraq

This is what used to be the western part of Greater Iran. At times, it also included what is today eastern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq" title="Iraq - Iraq , as it is where the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid" title="Sassanid - Sassanid capital was located ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctesiphon" title="Ctesiphon - Ctesiphon ). There are still cities in contemporary Iraq where the Persian names of the city are still retained. e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Anbar_Governorate" title="Al Anbar Governorate - al-Anbar . Even after Iraq was Arabized, the Persian presence was still quite recognizeable and dominant at times, as many of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia" title="Shia - Shia 's saints are buried in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najaf" title="Najaf - Najaf and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karbala" title="Karbala - Karbala . At the latest, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid" title="Safavid - Safavids lost control of these areas to the Ottoman Empire



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Posted By: Behi
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 19:26

Originally posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan


Turan is the ancient Iranian name for the northern nomads. In modern discourse, it is primarily an ideological term designating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_languages" title="Turkic languages - Turkic , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolic_languages" title="Mongolic languages - Mongolic and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languages" title="Finno-Ugric languages - Finno-Ugric languages and people more or less indiscriminately, implying a common ancestry and common culture of the various ethnicities in question.


Turan in Iranian literature


Avesta

In the hymns of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta" title="Avesta - Avesta , the adjective Tūrya is attached to various enemies of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrism" title="Zoroastrism - Zoroastrism like Fraŋrasyan (Shahnameh: Afrāsīāb). The word occurs only once in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gathas" title="Gathas - Gathas , but 20 times in the later parts of the Avesta. Apparently there is no ethnic difference between the Tūrya and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan" title="Aryan - Ārya in the Avesta, both having Iranian names and being related genealogically.

Linguists normally derive the word from the Indo-Iranian root *tūra- "strong, quick". The similarity between the words Tūrya and Türk is considered accidental by most scholars, and it is doubtful whether Tūrya was applied regularly to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_people" title="Turkic people - Turkic people before the late http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid" title="Sassanid - Sassanid period. However, this is contested by the adherents of the controversial Turanian theory.


Shahnameh

In the Middle Persian epic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahnameh" title="Shahnameh - Shahnameh , the term Tūrān ("land of the Tūrya" like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran" title="Iran - Ērān, Īrān = "land of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan" title="Aryan - Ārya ") refers to the inhabitants of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia" title="Central Asia - Central Asia in general, pointing to a time when those areas where inhabited by mostly Iranian nomadic tribes such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian" title="Scythian - Scythians .

According to the foundation myth given in the Shahnameh, King Farēdōn (= Avestan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraetaona" title="Thraetaona - Θraētaona ) had three sons, Salm, Tūr and Ēraj, among whom he divided the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor" title="Asia Minor - Asia Minor was given to Salm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia" title="Central Asia - Central Asia to Tūr and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran" title="Iran - Iran to Ēraj. The older brothers killed the younger brother, but he was revenged by his grand-son, and the Iranians became the rulers of the world. However, the war continued for generations.


Turan in modern literature


Geography

The word Turan was borrowed by the western languages as a the general word for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia" title="Central Asia - Central Asia . Accordingly, the phrase Turan Plain or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan_Depression" title="Turan Depression - Turan Depression is a geographical term referring to a part of Central Asia.


Linguistics

The term Turanian was formerly used by European (especially http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany" title="Germany - German , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary" title="Hungary - Hungarian and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia" title="Slovakia - Slovak ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnology" title="Ethnology - ethnologists , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics" title="Linguistics - linguists and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism" title="Romanticism - Romantics to designate populations speaking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages" title="Uralic languages - Uralic or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages" title="Altaic languages - Altaic languages (and the languages themselves).

Even though the linguistic usage of the word Turanian is hardly accepted in the scholarly community anymore, it is still rather vivid outside of the academia, especially in the internet. Thus, there is a wide-spread popular theory, which one may call the Turanian theory, that ascribes a common origin to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_languages" title="Turkic languages - Turkic , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolic_languages" title="Mongolic languages - Mongolic , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugric_languages" title="Ugric languages - Ugric and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language" title="Sumerian language - Sumerian languages and people, normally including the extinct http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages" title="Scythian languages - Scythian , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages" title="Scythian languages - Sarmatian and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_language" title="Median language - Median languages as well (which are classed with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages" title="Iranian languages - Iranian language group ). The proponents of the Turanian theory are rather sceptical of the methodology of traditional http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_linguistics" title="Comparative linguistics - comparative linguistics , which they describe as "Indo-European-centric".


Ideology

In European discourse, the words Turan and Turanian designate a certain mentality, i.e. the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad" title="Nomad - nomadic contrast of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization" title="Urbanization - urbanized http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture" title="Agriculture - agricultural civilizations. This usage is probably in accordance with the Zoroastrian concept of the Tūrya, which is not primarily a linguistic or ethnic designation, but rather a name of the infidels that oppose civilization based on the preaching of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster" title="Zoroaster - Zoroaster .

Combined with physical anthropology, the concept of the Turanian mentality has a clear racist potential. Thus, the scholar J.W. Clackson described the Turanid or Turanian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race" title="Race - race in the following words ("The Iran and Turan", Anthropological Review 6:22 (1868), p. 286):

"The Turanian is the impersonation of material power. he is the merely muscular man at his maximum of collective development. He is not inherently a savage, but he is radically a barbarian. He does not live from hand to mouth, like a beast, but neither has he in full measure the moral and intellectual endowments of the true man. He can labour and he can accumulate, but he cannot think and aspire like a Caucasian. Of the two grand elements of superior human life, he is more deficient in the sentiments than in the faculties. And of the latter, he is better provided with those which conduce to the acquisition of knowledge than the origination of ideas."

Politics

In the declining days of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire" title="Ottoman Empire - Ottoman Empire , the word Turanian was adopted by some Turkish nationalists to express a pan-Turkic ideology, also called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanism" title="Turanism - Turanism . Presently, Turanism forms an important aspect of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology" title="Ideology - ideology of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey" title="Turkey - Turkish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalist_Movement_Party" title="Nationalist Movement Party - Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), whose members are also known as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves" title="Grey Wolves - Grey Wolves .

In recent times, the word Turanian is sometimes used to express a pan- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages" title="Altaic languages - Altaic nationalism (theoretically including http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchuria" title="Manchuria - Manchurians and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia" title="Mongolia - Mongols in addition to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_people" title="Turkic people - Turks - and potentially http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan" title="Japan - Japanese and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea" title="Korea - Koreans ), though no political organization seems to have adopted such an ambitious platform.


Fiction

The name "Turan" also appears in the fictional geography of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyborian_Age" title="Hyborian Age - Conan the Barbarian novels .




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Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 19:38
So is "greater Iran" same/similar project as Turan? From what i know is Turan union is the unifycation of Turkic people living in Turkic country's, not occupying other country's parts or occupying parts of country's that where "once" of Turks. From what i see of "greater Iran" posted above me by Land of Aryan is, the unify or clearly "reoccupation" of some parts taht "belonged" to the Persians some "ages" ago. 

It has (actually many) similarities with "megali idea" of Greece during WWI, they also wanted some parts back that "belonged to them" but couldnt.

Everyday i learn something new about nationalism.


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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 19:41

Originally posted by DayI

So is "greater Iran" same/similar project as Turan? From what i know is Turan union is the unifycation of Turkic people living in Turkic country's, not occupying other country's parts or occupying parts of country's that where "once" of Turks. From what i see of "greater Iran" posted above me by Land of Aryan is, the unify or clearly "reoccupation" of some parts taht "belonged" to the Persians some "ages" ago. 

It has (actually many) similarities with "megali idea" of Greece during WWI, they also wanted some parts back that "belonged to them" but couldnt.

Everyday i learn something new about nationalism.

 LOL you didnt even read the article. the article is about a georgraphical term, it doesnt even mention unification.

and as that article pionts out, many westerners also use that term to represent this geographical area.

so no, greater iran is not like turan.

and why do pan turks use the term turan? thats iranic. why dont you guys use turkistan....

oh the irony.

DayI, is this going to be another one of those discussion where you dont even read what others post and you continue to talk without posting information or sources of any kind?

i think it is, and im ready for it.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Behi
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 20:03
Originally posted by DayI

So is "greater Iran" same/similar project as Turan? From what i know is Turan union is the unifycation of Turkic people living in Turkic country's, not occupying other country's parts or occupying parts of country's that where "once" of Turks. From what i see of "greater Iran" posted above me by Land of Aryan is, the unify or clearly "reoccupation" of some parts taht "belonged" to the Persians some "ages" ago. 

It has (actually many) similarities with "megali idea" of Greece during WWI, they also wanted some parts back that "belonged to them" but couldnt.


Wierd!!!

I was Sure sb would say somthing like that, it's reason for underlins & bold words
But "Greater Iran" was more of a cultural super-state, rather than a political one to begin with.

other sources such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nelson_Frye" title="Richard Nelson Frye - Richard Nelson Frye give a more broader definition and define it to have included "much of the Caucasus, Afghanistan, and Central Asia, with cultural influences extending to China, India, and the semitic speaking world." According to Frye, "Iran means all lands and peoples where Iranian languages were and are spoken, and where in the past, multi-faceted Iranian cultures existed." (p.xi, Gretaer Iran).

& for more info, Richard Frye is American Swede not Iranian

Originally posted by DayI


Everyday i learn something new about nationalism.

Agreed, people read something & Interpret
to totally new one

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Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 20:03
Originally posted by Iranian41ife

 LOL you didnt even read the article. the article is about a georgraphical term, it doesnt even mention unification.

yea yea, whatever.

and as that article pionts out, many westerners also use that term to represent this geographical area.

so no, greater iran is not like turan.

Ok, understood thanks for clearing it up.

and why do pan turks use the term turan? thats iranic. why dont you guys use turkistan....
i dunno why.


DayI, is this going to be another one of those discussion where you dont even read what others post and you continue to talk without posting information or sources of any kind?

i think it is, and im ready for it.

I still remember that discussion what your talking about now, i posted there source of something that mamikon asked about. I think it whas about Bulgar-Turkic tribes that where settled in current region of Azerbaijan and where allied with the Byzantines against the sassanid empire. I posted taht source for mamikon but if you dared to read that post you could find your answer in it, so I decided "to avoid pointless discussion with guys who doesnt read other's post and comments about it".


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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 20:06

Originally posted by DayI

I still remember that discussion what your talking about now, i posted there source of something that mamikon asked about. I think it whas about Bulgar-Turkic tribes that where settled in current region of Azerbaijan and where allied with the Byzantines against the sassanid empire. I posted taht source for mamikon but if you dared to read that post you could find your answer in it, so I decided "to avoid pointless discussion with guys who doesnt read other's post and comments about it".

no, your "source" was probably not reputable, and that is why you probably didnt show it to me because if you would have, i would have just proved you wrong again.

this happens everytime. we have had like 5 discussions and the same thing happens over and over again. you need to either start debating logically or not enter controversial discussions.

Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by Iranian41ife

 LOL you didnt even read the article. the article is about a georgraphical term, it doesnt even mention unification.

yea yea, whatever.

if you did read the article then why did you say it was talking about unification? LOL i have no problem admitting my mistakes, why do you have problems admitting yours?

your english is good and i know you can read it good too, so if you would have read the article you would not have talked about "unification".

if any of you would have done the research, you would never have even brought the term "greater iran" into this discussion. but you guys didnt, and now you have been proven wrong.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 20:24
Originally posted by Iranian41ife

no, your "source" was probably not reputable, and that is why you probably didnt show it to me because if you would have, i would have just proved you wrong again.

Anyway i dont know that subject anymore, we can continiue if you want from there. I dont take those discussion as an battle, but an exchange of mind-toughts.


if you did read the article then why did you say it was talking about unification? LOL i have no problem admitting my mistakes, why do you have problems admitting yours?
Ok why i  did talk about unification is bcuz when i readed "Greater Iran provinces" from the article, i saw some points that did fit in that way. An example, the allergy that you guys have to "Azerbaijan" name and allways claim as it yours belonged to you, did fit in my minds as "unification" it may be wrong, but i posted my vieuw about it.




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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 20:28

lol, unification has nothing to do with claims.

 

we have no probably admitting they are turks now, infact, we know they are turks. but the fact is that they are descendents of the medes and were iranic until the turks came.

i dont know what problem you guys have with that. its the truth. and guess waht DayI, anatolians werent turks either, but they are now. did you also think that anatolians were origionally turks too?

but lets keep this on topic.

pan turkism has no place on this forum. this place is for historical realities. we can talk about the history of pan turkism and its origions and stuff, but pan turkism in general has no place on this historical forum.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 01-May-2006 at 20:34
Originally posted by Iranian41ife

but lets keep this on topic.

pan turkism has no place on this forum. this place is for historical realities. we can talk about the history of pan turkism and its origions and stuff, but pan turkism in general has no place on this historical forum.

Agree, any "pan" related stuff shouldnt be allowed here.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-May-2006 at 12:16

Originally posted by mamikon

The section "Greater Iran" is a geographical  description not a political one.  And people dont post Iranian articles there pan-Iranism there...and Iran has been a place where many ancient Iranian Empires have risen and  fallen. If you have a Greater Turkey section, who have have been in Anatolia  for only 800 years, then you ignore all other nations who have created states there 2000 years before the arrival of the Turks. And lastly...do I sense jealousy? 

Call me ignorant but I hadn't heard the term "Greater Iran" before joining this forum.Iran as I know it, is name of a country.

I don't participate in activities where I see no chances of excelling.Jealousy is the domain of Females.



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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 02-May-2006 at 12:28

I don't like "Greater Iran" in the header, so I made this thread with a suggestion:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11167&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11167&am p;PN=1

It should just be Ancient Near Eastern Civilisations with sub headers such as Ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, Iran, etc.  It would make it consistant with the forum's current lay out.



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-May-2006 at 12:33

Ya Zagros I went through that thread.The issue as I see it not about renaming a particular section.It's better if the section below

Topics by region or time period

is either converted into:

1]Topics by region.

or

2]Topics by time period.

I guess better would be Topics by region.

 



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Posted By: Behi
Date Posted: 02-May-2006 at 16:54
Originally posted by 0000

Call me ignorant but I hadn't heard the term "Greater Iran" before joining this forum.Iran as I know it, is name of a country.

I don't participate in activities where I see no chances of excelling.Jealousy is the domain of Females.



see the last page,


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-May-2006 at 22:43

Originally posted by Land of Aryan

see the last page,

There's just one direct comment about jealousy on the last page.

On a serious note....I didn't know about the existense of Wikipedia too before I joined this forum.



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