Caucasian Albania
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Archaeology & Anthropology
Forum Discription: Topics on archaeology and anthropology
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10324
Printed Date: 21-May-2024 at 01:36
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Topic: Caucasian Albania
Posted By: Argentum Draconis
Subject: Caucasian Albania
Date Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 08:57
| Why there is a region called albania in caucasus? is it related with balkan albania? |
Replies:
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 03:09
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It refers to the modern Republic of Azerbaijan, more or less. In principle it has no connection to the Albania of Europe, the same that neighbour Iberia (Georgia) has no connection with European Iberia. Yet the coincidence of name has been used by some "historians" with a political agenda to promote a more than arguable Caucasian origin for modern Albanian of the Balcans and Italy. ------------- 
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 23:33
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Scotland is also called Alba in its native tongue... I dont think Albanians came have anything to do with either.
------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 05:00
Maybe this map will help you. Look above Armenia. Since the origins of the Albanians are not well yet known, there is a theory that says that the origin of the Albanians is from Caucasus and that they settled in Europe during the ottomans times. ------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 06:47
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Well, the fact that we see Albanians fighting against Ottomans and Western Europeans campaigning occasionally in a place called Albania (exactly where Albania stands now) and Catholic Albanians (Arvanitic) in Greece and Southern Italy seems to point to Albanians not arriving there under Ottoman rule - in any case they would have arrived before, maybe, as some have pointed, as a remnant of Dacians, Thracians or Illyrians.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 09:08
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Yes you are right. But only on the part where you say that they didn't arrive at the time of the ottomans (my mistake).
As it is written in wikipedia they are first mentioned around 1000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Albanians The most important phrase of the article I think is this: The modern Albanians were not mentioned in Byzantine chronicles until 1043, although Illyria was part of the Byzantine Empire. The Illyrians are referred to for the last time as an ethnic group in Miracula Sancti Demetri (7th century AD). So by my opinion there is a relation between the Albania in Caucasus and the Balkans. It is a migration that took place for about 3 centuries before 1500 years. ------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 10:04
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I am skeptic. I would expect such migration being recorded by Byzantine and maybe even Latin sources, at least as much as as one would expect Illyrians or Albanians to be mentioned in that period at all. Such a massive migration actually seems less likely to be missed by the historian than the mere persistence of a rural people in the heights of the mountains of a marginal land. Also, why would such a sudden and unnoticed invasion go to such a poor and undesired land? I think that the conditions of the country and the lack of information rather point to a continuity from the Roman period. Can't say if they were Illyrians (maybe too much of a cath-all term) or Thracians (who lived nearby in what's now Kosova and Serbia) or some other less known people that felt under the "Illyrian" vagueness. I can't but find parallels with the Basque case: a people that, in the midst of troubled times, entrenches itself in a mountainous area, where they have probably lived since long ago. Of course I have no evidence to probe my case but one would say it rather likely. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: ILIR THE GREAT
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 20:35
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All the evidence is here... http://www.ilirialbania.com.au.tp/Ilirian.htm - http://www.ilirialbania.com.au.tp/Ilirian.htm
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 04:10
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First don't even think that I am making propaganda for anybody and anything! And where did you see that? From the reference of wikipedia....
If you want to play like that I can give you reference that the Greeks went to planet Mars 2000 years ago.... 
And for this post I like my evidence to be based on sites and books that are not from Albania, FYROM, etc. for example ilirialbania.com.au.tp. If you want propaganda look at that site... If you like you can read about what happened between the 5th and the 12th century in the Balkans... And when the ottomans came well let's leave that part out for the time. The Serbs are Slavs and many others around there... arrived somewhere around 1000 AD. Why do you think that the Balkans are called puzzle of civilization..? There are so many nationalities there that you can not for certain say who is related to whom. The first time that homogeneity has established was during the Balkan wars and last with Treaty of Serbs. Ok let's end this here  . What is your! opinion about the relationship between the Albania in Caucasian and Balkan Albania?
Because I don't think that two different races had the same name... ------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 04:35
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Look: albus/alba in Latin is white. I don't say that all "Albanias" come from that word, but it's clear that such athymology shouldn't be rare in the area of Roman influence, including modern Albania. The case is clear for Britain, called Alba and Albion on occasion by the Romans due to its white cliffs at the southern shores. Also it's quite clear that the ones that defend the "caucasian origin" hypothesis have always a political agenda: they are either Serbs or Greeks, both nations with a community of insterests in Balcanic geopoltics. In the case of Greece, it would seem like they would like to cancel any possible claim from any other neighbour people to continuity with the ancient world. Something that is naturally absurd, as there was never a population replacement, so all the peoples in the area are connected to the ancient ones, at least genetically. A mere coincidence in name is not sufficient case for making a connection, specially when there are no traces of their hypothetical arrival. Modernly there's a school of balcanic pseudo-history that tries to invent many "oriental" migrations of "Iranic" or, like in this case, "Caucasic" peoples to give some sort of exoctic pedigree to their nations. All those cosntructs aren't but castles in the air: they lack of the slightest evidence and they are based in poor word-connecting and a hot imagination. There are no migrations from the East to Central Europe in the Middle Ages other than the turkic/ugric tribes. Obviously Albanians of the Caucasus were neither but a Caucasic-speaking people, that would be somehow akin to Georgians or Chechens. Equally, Albanians of the Balcans are an Indo-European speaking people, even if their language seems to stand in a separate branch - what can be equally proof of their ancient presence or their tardy arrival, though I suspect rather their ancient presence. Also, when we find nomadic peoples moving around, like the Romanized Vlachs, they are distinct in their patterns. Albanians show no nomadism, no historical reference of arrival, nothing but a deep rooting in their mountainous region. Wether they are Illyrians, Thracians or the Traco-Illyrian hybrid that is often mentioned for that area or something totally different, I can't say for sure: but they do seem a stable people there. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 06:31
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The Albanoi were Illyrians, but whether the modern Albanians have an ethnic continuity with the Illyrian Albanoi is disputed (see Origin of Albanians), and the ethnonym may have been transferred to an unrelated people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_and_history_of_the_name_ Albania So can anyone explain what is the relation between the Caucasus and Balkan Albania, because I don't think there is any other land with 2 identical names and no relation… And something else, do not confuse Thrace with Illyria. They are two different areas of the Balkans. You will find a small land called Macedonia in-between. Also don't claim that no migration took place, because many tribes passed from the Balkans so are you 100% sure that there is no possible link between the Caucasus and the Balkan Albania. And you really think that everything is written in history books? My opinion is that the modern Albanians are a conjunction of Illyrians and other races. And please do it with facts and reference and not like this: Modernly there's a school of balcanic pseudo-history that tries to invent many "oriental" migrations of "Iranic" or, like in this case, "Caucasic" peoples to give some sort of exoctic pedigree to their nations. And if you read my second answer it ends with: So by my opinion... And not the modern school of Balkan pseudo-history... As you claim. Don't forget that the question is if there is a relation between the two lands. How do you answer that they both have the same name? ------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 07:43
That's very differet with the Caucasian Albania hypothesis!  Now you don't seem to defend anymore the migration of a people and pervivence of the name but the trnsference of a local ethnonym to another people. Much like the tribal name of Vascones extended to all Basque-speaking peoples with the advent of Middle Ages, curiously. Like Albanians, we Basques have also beared the unlikely theories about our origins made up by our neighbours with political intent. These theories are widely discredited but you still see them appearing now and then, here and there. French have always tried to say that Basques "invaded" Vasconia (Gascony, ancient Aquitaine) at some point, instead of acknowldeging that this medieval Vasconia wasn't but the likely offspring of ancient Aquitanians. Spaniards have favored odd theories on the Basco-Iberian connection or even a totally unrealistic African origin. As I say all these attempts to make of a native people an intrusive element had only one objective: to discredit whatever national claims our people could have. I am under the impression that Albania has suffered the same fate: a poor, ill-civilized, mountain-dwellers' people that, with the advenement of nationalism happen to be denied in its essence by its more powerful neighbours who ambition its lands.
People of Kosova were then Thracians... Upper Macedonia (Peonia) was also a non-Greek (but Hellenized) area which is often claimed to be hybrid of Illyrian and Thracian culture. I reckon that Illyrians and Thracians are different nations but sometimes it's difficult to know for sure who is who in the central Balcanic area. At least, I'm not sure about that.
Again the two lands? What about...?
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 08:00
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It's always the same story. This discussion is for Caucasian-Albanian and is transform for the balkan. I think that, the center of world is somewhere else. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 08:52
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The Albanoi were Illyrians, but whether the modern Albanians have an ethnic continuity with the Illyrian Albanoi is disputed (see Origin of Albanians), and the ethnonym may have been transferred to an unrelated people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_and_history_of_the_name_ Albania That means that some people (it could be anyone and from anywere) came and mixed with the Illyrians. At the 7th century it was last hear of them. Why you think that the Albanians leaving in Albania today are descendants of the Illyrians ... The Serbs have also nothing to do with the Illyrian, they are Slavs. As I mentioned above. As for the names in the ancient times everything was unique and served a purpose. The names meant something and weren't just copied. In our days and in the near past well it hasn't been like that. ------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 10:38
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 16:04
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Ehm, "white-history" is a racist site and they say nonsenses: their idiocies about Greek "race" are not worth even a comment. Albanians are not any pure "race" and, as far as I've been able to gather, they are pretty simmilar to Greeks genetically. Those nonsenses about "being Indo-European" genetically are just nonsenses of racist minds that don't know and don't want to know anything about Indo-Europeans, who mixed as they marched. There's no IE race, just IE-speaking peoples. And obviously Greeks aren't nor weren't ever a Nordic population. Please don't disturb the peace of the topic, thanks.  -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Psolaras
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 22:10
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Based on Y DNA studies, Albanians have a strong Adriatic component and a strong Neolithic component. DNA studies can help cut through the rhetoric and show facts. It seems that via these studies, Albanians are largely indigenous people. Haplogroup E3b, which is high in Albanians and Greeks, reflects Neolithic Balkan ancestry, in accordance with population genetics theories.
All peoples of the Adriatic have high frequency of haplogroup I1b, which has been in the Western Balkans for thousands of years.
Albania was probably not the most attractive place from an economic standpoint for invaders to target, so this might help exlain why Albanians are in significant part descended from ancient peoples of the region. And if there were invasions and settlements, excluding the Slavs, the invading people were probably regional and not distant, like Caucasians. It would help if someone compared Y DNA haplogroup J haplotypes of Albanians and Caucasians to see if there is a relationship, since both regions have high frequency of this haplogroup.
Theories of population replacement in the Balkans don't hold water. It amazes me to think that pseudoeducated people like Fallmerayer and his followers stated that indigenous Greeks were replaced. These people never stopped to consider the vast variety of Greeks: Cypriot, Cretan, Pontic, Tsakonian, Maniot, etc. Poor peasants, like medieval Slavs, had neither the numbers nor the knowhow to replace an ethnic group of the cultural magnitude of the Greeks. Albanian-speakers who came to the Greek peninsula settled more or less in distinct areas, nowhere near threatening the population composition of the entire Greek world.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 23:16
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wait so Azeris dont callthemslefes Albanians? ------------- |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 12:56
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Maybe Albanians have migrated from the Balkans to the Caucasus as Armenians have?
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2007 at 10:04
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^^lol that killed it, yes in herodotus,
he says armenians are phrygian colonists , who then are very much like the paphlagonian(briges) who where from macedonia.
nice story, but you never know.
also checking any roman map you will see albania in the caucasus.
yes so they went back and forth.
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Posted By: Kerimoglu
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2007 at 01:05
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I am Azeri here. I can give u information on that. Caucasian Albania is different from Modern Balkan Albania. And Caucasian albania is different from Albania in Caucasus as well.
After the collapse of Seleucids a guy named Atropat, who was one of the representators of Alex from Macedonia, and lived in Southern Azerbaijan - which is Northern Iran today, declared those lands independent. At the same time, in north, Alban tribes together with Nakhch, Kaspi and other non-Iranian, but local Caucasian tribes. So on the land of todays Azerbaijan Albania was created - Not Caucasian Albania yet. This lived till Sassanids, some times free and some times paying tax to Parthia not to invade them. In 60 's BC Pompei Magnum attacked and later even Mark Antony, but mostly suffered Atropatena, which in south. Sassanids invaded Atropatena in 224 and Albania in 226. After that it was kinda chaos in Azerbaijan, becouse of numerous Armenian, Local and Hunnic tribes revolts against the empire. In late 5th century, A guy from Subar Turkish tribe declared half-independent country Caucasian Albania, which also called Girdman. It lived till Arabs came in 658 and fought several wars against Byzans, Khazars and Arabs. ------------- History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow! |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 07:27
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dont forget that this history takes part during the time of alexander the great when after his death a legion of his army went away and stayed in today caucas.
if we study them better we can see that a good part af their language is similiar to the albanian one.....even this their language is called burrunisht that in albanian means the language of the men(by the word burre=>man) ------------- |