Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Visigoths after 526
 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Visigoths after 526
    Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 17:05

For first, I'm looking for discussion about topic with any who really intresting in it.

Secodary, I have some thoughts about problems in their history. All we know that after death of Amalaric (531) some lands (Toulose, Rodez etc) came to frankish hands. There is some discussion about this fact but this is another story. I support this opinion. But we exactly don't know when and who did it. May be it was Childebert or Gunthar (son of Chlotar) or Theodebert. I know exactly that it was after 531 until 561 (death of Clothar). Because in 561 kingdom of Clothar was divided and Toulose was mentioned in it like land of Clothar. I dont find any other mentions of these lands between 531-561. May be somebody know about it? It is important to know to whom kingdom (Childebert's, Chlotar's etc) they was added. One more questions. Somebody know something about bishop of Rodez Dalmacium except information from Gregorius of Tour? Did he take part in Council of Clermon in 535? I dont have this resources.

It's I have much more thoghts about reign,death, marriage of Amalaric. About Theudis and so on. Excuse me for my english. Thank you anyway 

 

 
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 21:22
A very erudite question that amybe can't be answered. I remeber that the Encyclopedia Auamendi (focused on Basque thematic) had some good info on the Merovingian struggles on Vasconia (Gascony) and they may have mentioned the Aquitaine beyond the Garonne (Visigothic Aquitaine) as well. But I can't check it right now.

I've found the following in the Catalan Wikipedia:


Amb els merovingis [Aquitnia] fou un ducat. Desideri, duc vers el 570, fou lleial a Khilperic de Nustria, i el 584, a la mort del rei, va donar suport a Gondobald, prets fill de Clotari I (ex rei de Soissons) que estava refugiat a la cort de Bizanci i havia retornat a reclamar els seus drets, i que va obtenir tamb el de molts altres nobles com Gontra Bos, suposat duc d'Alvrnia; Gondobald es va proclamar rei a Aquitnia a la ciutat de Brive, per derrotat a Li, la rebelli es va acabar i molts dels nobles revoltat van ser executats (Gontra Bos va fugir); Desideri va ser perdonat per Fredegunda per a lany segent va voler ampliar els seus dominis cap a la Septimnia visigoda, que shavia revoltat, i va morir en un combat a Carcassona el 587. El 628 fou erigida en regne per a Caribert II, fill de Clotari II, que va establir la capital a Tolosa i es va casar amb Gisela, la filla del duc de Gascunya. El 631 el va succeir el seu fill Khilderic que fou expulsat per Dagobert d'Austrsia, per Bogis, germ de Khilderic fou reconegut duc, auxiliat pel seu germ Bertran. Van ser desprs ducs el tolos Felix i Llop I. A aquest el va succeir el seu germ Bertran que va morir el 688 que nomes tenia un fil, Hubert, sacerdot, i la successi va passar a Eudes I, fill de Llop que vers el 692 no reconeixia cap autoritat i va fer expedicions a la Septimnia visigoda, per cap el 700 es va haver de reconixer vassall dels merovingis; revoltat altra cop el 711 es va aliar amb els rabs. El 731 les incursions rabs que sembla que tenien el pas lliure per la regi, va provocar la intervenci de Carles Martell que va guanyar la anomenada Batalla de Tours (732) que va posar fi a les incursions musulmanes. Eudes va morir entre el 735 i el 738 i el va succeir el seu fill Hunald associat amb sa germ At. Carles Martell va reconixer a Hunald com a duc per aquest es va revoltar el 741 i derrotar va haver de fugir a Gascunya el 742; va passar a lofensiva el 743 per el 744 fou derrotat; va fer treure els ulls a sa germ At per es va haver de sotmetre el 745, retirant-se a un monestir per deixant el seu fill Waifr com a duc, reconegut pel majordom merovingi Pip el breu, fill i successor de Carles Martell. La pau va durar fins el 761, any en que Waifr es va revoltar; la guerra va durar set anys i el 768 Waifr fou assassinat suposadament per un emissari de Pip el breu i el ducat fou incorporat a la Nustria. Uns mesos desprs Hunald II, fill de Waifr, es va revoltar per el 769 fou derrotat per Carlemany i va haver de fugir a Gascunya; el duc gasc Llop el va entregar a Carlemany i va rebr el ttol de duc d'Aquitnia; per un tal Eudes II, potser fill o germ d'Hunald, va seguir la lluita i al morir el 776 el seu fill At, fins que el 778 Carlemany va deixar el pas pacificat i va declarar abolit el ducat.


Translated it says (more or or less):

Under the Merovingians [Aquitaine] was a Dukedom. Desiderius, duke since 570 was loyal to Chilperic of Neustria and, at the death of king in 584, he gave support to Gundobald, supposed son of Clothaire I (former king of Soissons) that was refuged at the court of Byzantium and who returned to claim his rights, recieving [the support] of other noblemen like Gontra Bos, supposed Duke of Auvergne. Gundovald is proclaimed King of Aquitaine in Brive but, defeated at Lyons, the rebellion is quelled and many nobles are executed (Gontra Bos runs away). Desiderius is forgiven by Fredegunda but the following year tried to expand his domains to the Visigothic Septimania that had revolted and was killed in battle at Carcassonne in 587.

In 628 [Aquitaine] was created as Kingdom by Charibert II, son of Clothaire II, who located the capital at Tolosa (Tolouse) and married Giselle, the daughter of the Duke of Gascony [Vasconia]. In 631, he is succeeded by his son Childeric, who was expelled by Dagobert of Austrasia. But Bogis, brother of Childeric is acknowledged Duke, with the help of his brother Bertrand. After them, the Dukes of Tolosa were Felix and Lop I. This one is succeeded by his brother Bertrand, who died in 688, leaving only one son, Hubert,  a priest. For this reason the succesion will pass to Eudes [the Great], son of Lop, who did not recognize any authority and will launch expeditions to Visigothic Septimania, but in 700 he must accept to become vassal fo Merovingians. In 711 he revolts again and allies himself with the Arabs (...)

I actualy think that he was victim of being squeezed between the Muslims and Martel, but maybe he got allied with the Muslims early on only to repent later.

I haven't translated all the passage, but hope you have enough.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 13:50

Ok. It's very intresting but it all about days after death of Clothar. About Desideri we have some information by Gregory and Joan of Biclar (dont remember exactly) in the same way. Thank you anyway
Back to Top
Decebal View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Digital Prometheus

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1791 		  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 14:14

Interesting question. I'm afraid I cannot help you much, since this is not my specialty. I would think though that you're not going to find any info about the bishop of Rodez Dalmacium, outside of Gregory of Tours, since most of the information we have on that region and period comes to us from Gregory.

Since your question is very specific, I would imagine that you've read specialty books on the subject, but I'll try to help anyway. Did you read Margaret Deansley's "History of Early Medieval Europe"? In it, it refers to the various historians which have left us sources on that period and region. I seem to recall her mentioning a couple of Visigoth historians whose works are used as primary sources, but I can't recall their names right now, and I don't have the book anymore. Good luck tracking their work down though. Perhaps if you find their names, you can post them and maybe some of the AE members have access to their works.

There's a few other secondary sources which may be of help:

Wolfram, Herwig. History of the Goths. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1988.
Rosales, Jurat. Los Godos. Barcelona, Ed. Ariel S.A., 2nd edition, 2004. (edition in Spanish
The Visigoths from the Migration Period to the Seventh Century: An Ethnographic Perspective, ed. Peter Heather, 225-259. Woodbridge, Suffolk: Boydell Press, 1999.

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 13:49

THank you:

It's a true that i'm veru intresting visigoths and read much about it.

Now, I try to list all primary sources that i have:

1. Gregorius Turensis 2. Isidor of Sevilla 3. Joan of Biclar 4. Procopius 5. Iordan 6. Vita Aviti Conf.Aurel

I haven't : 1. Chronicon Ceasareagustanum 2. Cassiodorus Variae.  3. Julianus Toletanus

Please if somebody know where i can find them, mail me. If you know another primary resources on this theme let me know.  
Back to Top
Decebal View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Digital Prometheus

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1791 		  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2006 at 14:18

Here's where you can download the entire text of Cassiodorus Variae

http://freespace.virgin.net/angus.graham/Cassiodorus.htm
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 05:37

Which primary resources about frankish kingdoms 526-561 do you know?

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.111 seconds.