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New Discoveries in Jiroft May Change History of Civilization

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Sharrukin View Drop Down
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New Discoveries in Jiroft May Change History of Civilization
    Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 10:46

Incorrect: at least since the forum was drained there was city and civilization in Rome. Athens had clear civilized stages in the Mycenean period (1400-1200 BCE) and later since 800 BCE.

All we were talking about was democratic Athens and republic Rome, as civilizations, nothing more.  I am all too aware of their previous existence, thank you.

Hierarchy doesn't mean monarchy: it means just stratification.

I never said "hierarchy" meant "monarchy".

You have too many prejudices about what constitutes civilization. I don't need a zillion things: I just need a city with some complexity. You may have a point about Jerico but it's arguable and it's all.

If they are "prejudices", they are something borne out of the consensus of historical and archaeological definitions.  In that case, archaeologists and historians have too many prejudices.  There is nothing in the literature which speaks of a "Jericho Civilization".  Instead, we read of a culture of villages known as "Pre-Pottery Neolithic" and "Pottery Neolithic" . 

 

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YusakuJon3 View Drop Down
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  Quote YusakuJon3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2006 at 21:54
This appears to be headed into a debate over what constitutes "civilization".  Which, in itself, is a rather poorly-defined process which leaves us quite open to speculation.  Was it civilization when the first walls were put up to protect the inhabitants from the dangers without?  Or was it the invention of writing, the earliest examples of which remain the cuneform inscriptions of Sumer?  Perhaps it started earlier, as a division of labor amongst the growing cities of the Near and Middle East spawned an artisan caste to complement the ruling priesthood and warrior-kings.  There's no clear delineation between what comprised  "stone age" and what became civilization as we take it for granted today.

On the subject of contacts between settlements, trade relations can and have existed in the absence of permanent settlements.  The natives of North America had existing trade routes from the Atlantic coastal plains to the interior at a  time when Europeans were only just discovering the uses of seaworthy vessels.  Given the archaeological evidence, it wouldn't be hard for the proto-Sumerian settlements to trade upstream with those peoples of neolithic Anatolia.  Certainly someone would've found a way to transport goods from the interior of the Iranian plateau.

All in all, I'll just say that this one could bear watching to see if there is indeed something which ties it in with the more well-known and well-documented civilizations of Mesopotamia.  It is generally presumed that the influence flowed out from the Sumerians and Egypt, but it could well be that living in a fertile river valley does not necessarily mean that building a civilization would be impossible elsewhere.  We have the Meso-American cities which sprang up in Central American jungles and in the Andes mountains of Peru, after all.
"There you go again!"

-- President Ronald W. Reagan (directed towards reporters at a White House press conference, mid-1980s)
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Maju View Drop Down
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 01:56
Actually Egypt is not considering a source of civilization except for Africa. Ancient Egypt is "too young".

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 04:29
But it's getting closer.  Last year, the oldest hieroglyphic inscription was discovered.  It was a record of a "King Scorpion" (perhaps the first of that name) who conquered the rival city of Ombos, dated to about 3250 BC.  Now, considering that Scorpion came from the city of Hierakonpolis whose titular deity was Horus, and the titular deity of Ombos was Seth, reminds one of the story of the battle for domination over Egypt by the two gods, Horus and Seth, each representing the "two parts" of Egypt.  The story ends with Horus defeating Seth.  What is compelling is that at Ombos was discovered a pictograph of the "red crown" of Lower Egypt, dated to about 3400 BC.  On the Palermo Stone there are more than 9 Pre-dynastic kings wearing the "red crown".   Since we know that the rulers of "white crown" (of Upper Egypt) resided at Hierakonpolis, the inscription of "Scorpion I" may have been one of a pre-dynastic unification of at least the southern portion of Egypt, embellished later on in legend to represent the unity of the entire land created by Horus.  This is the first "politicallly specific" event in human history.
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Maju View Drop Down
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 04:46
3400 is a lot later than Sumeria dates, that reach up to 5000 for Eridu (first city) and 4800-3750 for El Ubayd (first empire).

We also have states of 3500 BCE in the Balcans... Egypt is definitively not the origin of civlization.

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 19:24

Well, I didn't say that Egypt was.  However, we do have an estimate that by about 3400 BC, the population of Hierakonpolis was at about 510,000.  The registers of the Palermo stone indicate a succession of at least 9 pre-dynastic kings of Ombos before the registers switch to the pre-dynastic kings of Hierakonpolis.  We estimate to about 3600 BC for the beginning of kingship at Ombos.

Eridu as a city only dates from about 3800 BC with an estimated population tipping 10,000.  (Wright 1981:325)   Let's not confuse the date of establishment with the date when that establishment became a city.  Babylon, for instance was only a village about 2300 BC, but didn't become a city until about 1900 BC.

al-'Ubaid was not even as large as Eridu which was the largest site of the Ubaid Culture.  Why do you refer to it as "first empire"?   Cultural expansion in this case didn't mean "political expansion".  The kind of tell-tale artefacts we look for to even come close to such a conclusion is remains of fortresses with exclusive cultural artefacts from the home country, outside the land of origin.  Instead all we find is Ubaid pottery spread over a large area of the Middle East in conjunction to the artefacts of the local cultures.  In this case we speak of "imported" or "imitated" pottery, since it was with the Ubaidians that a primitive form of the potter's wheel was first invented.

 

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