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Han Dynasty vs Wa Japan

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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Han Dynasty vs Wa Japan
    Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 08:44
Could the Han Empire have overrun the Japanese if it had wished to?

Edited by Sino Defender
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  Quote Bauhaus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 11:01
Hell No!!! Japan would have owned them, look at what happened to Mogolia. Yes the mongols had a stronger army, but Samurais are amazing fighters. Plus, the Kamikazee tidel wave wiped out the mongol fleet.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 11:44

Seems to me to be a very peculiar question.

Apart from the technical point Japan didn't actually exist then. What little evidence of Japan shows a tribal society the Hans were well aware of and saw of little interest.

 

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  Quote Praetorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 17:21

Originally posted by Bauhaus

Hell No!!! Japan would have owned them, look at what happened to Mogolia. Yes the mongols had a stronger army, but Samurais are amazing fighters. Plus, the Kamikazee tidel wave wiped out the mongol fleet.

I go with the Han on this one.

Dude think, the Han were more or less like the Romans of the east!

Dude, the Mongols cut down the Samurais, the Samurais fought the Mongols on their way of battle, but the Mongol infantry (that came from the see) had some formation warfare, wile the Japanese (to my knowledge) did not, they fought more Individually. (Ever herd of worriers vs sounders?) The Mongols went back to their ships, I think because they did not have a full fore to deafen from a anther attack, and did not have the reassures to bill an fort.  But when they came back with a full force the hurricane stopped them, the Japanese were just as lucky as the British were with the Spaniards.  

 



Edited by Praetorian
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 17:29
Were the Wa even around during that period and what were the Wa?

Were they a bunch of tribes?  A confederacy?  Or some grand kingdom with colonies stretching into Korea?

Japan at that time is sketchy at best.  No one really knows who or what the Wa was/were, so this is sort of wierded out question to ask.

Could the Hany dynasty have overrun the Wa?  Probably...would they have wanted to?  Probably not.  There's nothing that the Han dynasty would have gained by taking over the Wa.


Edited by Gubook Janggoon
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  Quote Praetorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 17:34

True, but its gust a what if thing or who wuld win tipe of thing.

So are we talking about the Wa or the Japanese Samurais?  Or both?

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  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 19:19

My knowledge on Ancient China is very limited, so I may ask some rather obvious questions.

1. Was the dynasty founded by the Liu Family?

2. During what time did Eastern Han Dynasty founded?


Could the Han Empire have overrun the Japanese if it had wished to?

I think that the Han could've done it. In addition to what Praetorian said earlier, China has a long history of armour and weapons development. China have many variety of armour, but the most used was the lamellar and scaled varieties, on second hand, the Japanese fought more Individually.

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 19:59
At this point there is no such thing as Samurai, Bushido, and what not.  We're talking about a very early Japan with questionable political and military organization.  The idea of individual battles and honor would probably not have been as developed (or existant for that matter) to the point to which we associate such ideas to later Samurai.

If anything, the Japanese may have been utilizing Tanko and Keiko style armours, but this too may be a stretch for a period of time this early.


Edited by Gubook Janggoon
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 20:10

Originally posted by Bauhaus

Hell No!!! Japan would have owned them, look at what happened to Mogolia. Yes the mongols had a stronger army, but Samurais are amazing fighters. Plus, the Kamikazee tidel wave wiped out the mongol fleet.

The Han Dynasty of China lasted from 206BC to AD220. The Samurai tradition started during the late Heian period (9th century). Prior to the Heian period, the Japanese military was based on the Chinese model which was obviously far superior. The only question is, in order to invade Japan, the Han military must have a powerful navy. I have no idea what the status and condition of the Han navy were.

Even though Bauhaus has gotten the time scale all mixed up, I have to agree with him about the Samurai as great fighters. If I am not mistaken, prior to the typhoon that literally destroyed the entire invading Mongolian fleet, the Mongolian army did land on Japanese soil but was pushed back to the sea by the defending samurai whose swordsmanship was superior to that of the Mongolian army (which might not comprise entirely of Mongolians, an issue that has been discussed here before).

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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 20:24
The Han would win hands down. They had more men and better men. The Japs would not be so lucky as they were with the Mongols.

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 20:28
Originally posted by flyingzone

If I am not mistaken, prior to the typhoon that literally destroyed the entire invading Mongolian fleet, the Mongolian army did land on Japanese soil but was pushed back to the sea by the defending samurai whose swordsmanship was superior to that of the Mongolian army (which might not comprise entirely of Mongolians, an issue that has been discussed here before).



During the first invasion the Japanese were pretty much beaten.  Japanese swords during the first invasion were noted to be weak against the mainland's armour and weaponry and the Samurai concept of individual battles was blown away by Mongol formation fighting.

By the time of the second invasion though, the Japanese were aware of the enemy's tactics and had built a wall.  They fared well during the second invasion.

IIRC the Mongol army was mainly composed of Chinese and Korean soliders.

BTW, Barbarrosa, let's not use the term "Jap", it's considered highly offensive. 


Edited by Gubook Janggoon
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 20:30

Originally posted by flyingzone

Even though Bauhaus has gotten the time scale all mixed up, I have to agree with him about the Samurai as great fighters. If I am not mistaken, prior to the typhoon that literally destroyed the entire invading Mongolian fleet, the Mongolian army did land on Japanese soil but was pushed back to the sea by the defending samurai whose swordsmanship was superior to that of the Mongolian army (which might not comprise entirely of Mongolians, an issue that has been discussed here before).

Neither the Mongols nor the Samurai were swordsmen. That the samurai were swordsmen is one of great urban legends of all time. They were like the Mongols, primarily horse archers.

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 20:43

Really? I didn't know that

But regardless, is what I heard about the Samurai pushing the invading Mongolian army back to the sea a fallacy? I just heard that from a secondary source and I have no way of verifying it.

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 21:21

I think Mongol archery was so superior to Japanese they were reduced to hemming the Mongols in and fighting hand to hand. Something neither side was particularly designed for but the Japanese would have had the advantage at, being at home and having superior numbers. The main weapon for ground fighting like the rest of the world was the yari (spear).

Later the samurai would use naganita (polearm). Samurai basic traiing in the high period was learning, yari, naganita, bow and horsemanship, the latter two the most important. Sword was a minor skill. Japanese swords were daito, a 4ft long cavalry sabre similar to most asian countries and no-dachi, a 5-6ft long monster carried by few for cutting horses legs similar to a European halberds.

The Katana became popular after the Togugawa shogunate caused 3 centuries of peace to break out. A law was passed limiting sword length to 3ft, so the shorted heavier katana became popular. There was no war and carrying a spear around town both uncouth and cumbersome. So a short sword sidearm became the main weapon and schools began to pop up in the 17th century. The old warrior run around japan fighting duals but quickly in the peace the samurai changed from warriors to buerocrats and the katana was worn more for tradition and decoration with few being able to use it.

 

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  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2006 at 21:22
Do we even have any reliable records of the Japanese military during this period? I doubt it. It's from few to none. The question of this thread doesn't seem to be valid, due to this very fact.
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  Quote IanZonja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2018 at 05:12
Han Dynasty was the second imperial dynasty in Chinese history. It was known as a golden age in Chinese history and its influence can still be felt even today.
Here is one of the Article found which will give you more information on A Golden Age of China in Early Han Dynasty Emperors


Edited by IanZonja - 12-Jul-2018 at 05:13
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