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Mongol campaigns in Vietnam
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Guests 
Guest 
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 Topic: Mongol campaigns in VietnamPosted: 26-Dec-2005 at 03:22 |
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Does anyone have any ideas how many Mongol/Turkic troops (excluding Chinese troops) that took part in the invasions of Vietnam in 1284 and 1287? I know that the first campaign against Vietnam in 1257 they had about 20-30,000.
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SaikhaNBayar
Janissary 
Joined: 11-Nov-2005 Location: Mongolia Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 09:51 |
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The third Mongol invasion, of 300,000 men and a vast fleet, was also defeated by the Vietnamese under the leadership of General Tran Hung Dao
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The 800th Anniversary of the Great Mongolian State. 2006
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 15:01 |
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Hi Saikha, that number includes the Chinese auxillaries. I just wonder does Mongolian source mention anything about the number of Mongolian or Turkic troops in the invasion or not. |
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flyingzone
Caliph 
Joined: 11-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2630 |
Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 16:26 |
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Didn't know the Mongolians had failed to invade Vietnam as well. Their failed Japanese invasion could be attributed to the "kamikaze". But how does one explain the failed Vietnamese invasion? One would assume the Mongolian army and navy were vastly superior to the Vietnamese one - given the fact that they had managed to invade the powerful Southern Song Dynasty in China. I am loving AE so much!!!! Am learning so much cool stuff here!!!!!
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tadamson
Baron 
Joined: 25-Jul-2005 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 451 |
Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 21:23 |
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The Yuan invasion forces were formed from garrison troops and ex Sung
units. Very few Nomad troops (Mongol, Turkic, Khitan etc) were
involved.
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rgds.
Tom.. |
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SaikhaNBayar
Janissary
Joined: 11-Nov-2005 Location: Mongolia Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 05:30 |
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Sorry , i don`t know |
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The 800th Anniversary of the Great Mongolian State. 2006
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mars
Immortal Guard 
Joined: 22-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 11:15 |
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hi, guys, after Mongol conquer of China, hundred of thousands chinese soldiers surrendered to them, how to deal with those chinese soldiers was a problem to Mongols, for sure, Mongols did not trust them. The invasion of Japan partly sovled this problme, the Mongol invasion army were largle made up by those ex-chinese soldiers ( at least 70%), for Mongols, if the invasion army conqurered Japan, wonderful, if failed, then he could get ride of those chinese soldiers whom they could not totally trust, this was a win-win situation to Mongols. and SaikhaNBayar, I doubt Mongols has the abilities to support a 300,000 men army to south eastern Asia at that time, that number must be extremely exaggerated. anyway, at the time of the death of Genghis Khan , there were only few than 300,000 Mongolian male adults in the Empire, so in the later years, most of the Mongolian army were mostly actually consisted with levy from conquered countries, those real Mongolians were only servered in the role of elite "shock troops" |
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flyingzone
Caliph
Joined: 11-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2630 |
Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 18:43 |
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What are the sources of your information??? |
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mars
Immortal Guard
Joined: 22-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 15:06 |
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flyingzone, that is a common knowledge in China, for example,"history of Yuan Dynastic" which was written in Ming Dynastic after the fall of the rule of Mongol over China. The same thing occured in the other part of world conquered by Mongol, the Mongol army raised from those area were also mostly made up of local people.
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mars
Immortal Guard
Joined: 22-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 15:20 |
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There was a well known story in China, the last chinese resistence against Mongol was crushed by a Mongol army led by Zhang HongFan,
a chinese general who surrendered to Mongol some years ago, and most of his soldiers were also chinese raised from Northern China, after achieved the victory, this fellow built a status on which written such a sentence "General Zhang HongFan destroyed Song Dynastic here", 100 hundred years later, after get ride of Mongols, Chinese did not destroy this victory Stauts, but add one word on it, which became "Song General Zhang HongFan destroyed Song Dynastic here" |
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tommy
Colonel 
Joined: 13-Sep-2005 Location: Hong Kong Online Status: Offline Posts: 545 |
Posted: 07-Jan-2006 at 01:56 |
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During the war, Mongols would force the captives to attack first,Mongolian soldiers followed,then the enemies would fight with the captives, their fellow countrymen,let the people of the foreign countries to kill with each other was the usual habit of the Mongols.
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leung
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tadamson
Baron
Joined: 25-Jul-2005 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 451 |
Posted: 07-Jan-2006 at 22:07 |
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Some points.
Khubilais state was the Yuan Empire it included North China (ex Jin Empire and Xixia Empire), Korea, Tibet , Mongolia and Manchuria. Before the assault on Song China its population was around 50 million. Khubilai always promoted capable people regardless of their origins. The Yuan attacks on Vietnam weren't till after the Song had beed defeated and all China included in the Empire. The bulk of Yuan soldiers were Chinese, but they weren't forced captives. In China (as in Persia, Tibet etc) many cities, troops, rulers transferred their allegiance to the Mongols volentaraly. Hostage screens were an old tactic used in sieges by Chinese and Mongols. |
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rgds.
Tom.. |
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mars
Immortal Guard
Joined: 22-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
Posted: 07-Jan-2006 at 22:36 |
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tommy, you are correct, Mongols would forced local people to army, and those new recruiter would be consist of the firs wave of attack in the next battle(not necessary against their own countrymen), but the beautifull thing was there was one thing reserved for those poor men: hope, Mongols did not care their live or death, but if, only if they could prove themself in the battle, Mongols would be very generous for giving them share of booty, and if they were proved reliable, they could be enlist into Mogol "regular" army, because Mongols usually did not care a person's original, social status and religion, so if a man, even was in the lowest rank of his society, was bravely and lucky enough in battle, he could found himself soon became a local Lord and be very wealth in the vast Mongl Empire, so after conquered so many countries, Mongols found no difficulty to recruit local soldiers. |
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BigL
General 
Joined: 30-May-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 817 |
Posted: 14-Jan-2006 at 01:10 |
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Yes when mongols attacked the jin empire an whole Jin army switched sides and joined the mongol armies,mongols didnt seem to have a racist bone in their body ironic huh |
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tadamson
Baron
Joined: 25-Jul-2005 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 451 |
Posted: 15-Jan-2006 at 19:08 |
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Im curious, this is a very distorted view of the facts, whare did you read it, or were taught it ? |
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rgds.
Tom.. |
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