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India Part of Greater Middle East?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: India Part of Greater Middle East?
    Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 01:34
Originally posted by Bulldog

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The overwhelming majority of Pakistanis are definitely culturally and ethnically related to all of the other South Asian countries like India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh.
 
I'm sorry but this comment is on parallel with an American saying
 
American:  "Hey hows life in Arabia"
 
Persian: "I'm actually from Iran"
 
American: "Well its all the same thing, your all Arabs, speak Arabic"
 
Persian: "Actually I'm not an Arab and my mothertongue is Farsi"
 
American: "Persian or whatever your all Arabs man whats the difference..."
 
Do you know any Sri Lankans? please explain the similarities between them and Pakistanis, actually please go into the similarities they have with Indian Punjabis.
 
India itself is so diverse, ethnically, religously, linguistically, how can one speak of India as a monoethnic/linguistic/cultural block.
 
 
 
This is probably the best post ever, thank youClap
 
its amazing how some people are so ignorant and just people together for no reason
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 14:49
Originally posted by pinguin

Indians attacked Greece as troops in the Persian army. Greeks lived in India after Alexander. There is even a style of art called Greek-Budhist. Aryhabatta, the mathematician, knew and used Greek mathematics fully.
 
So, I guess they also knew each other quite well, at least for a while.
 
        Ok i have to ask you back up that claim. Aryabhatta's work was written in verse very different from your traditional Greek style. And of course there were many things which were known by many cultures that doesn't make any one work derivative of another. Here is good commentary on the work of Aryabhatta by an expert in the field.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 00:39
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

... 
        Ok i have to ask you back up that claim. Aryabhatta's work was written in verse very different from your traditional Greek style. And of course there were many things which were known by many cultures that doesn't make any one work derivative of another. Here is good commentary on the work of Aryabhatta by an expert in the field.
 
 
Well, I am not downplaying Aryabhatta's work, because he is a genious I admire a lot and I have known all my life.
 
My point was very simple: Greeks, Indians, Iberians, and all the peoples of the Classical times knew each other and where at contact quite often. In the case of Aryabhatta, is just common sense to realize that after the age of glory of math in Alexandria, and given the contacts that city had, among others, with India, some knowledge and techniques reached India as well.
 
Now, with respect to Aryabhatta writing in poetry, you should realize that style is only for presenting the final works. In ancient times (in the West, too), the record of all the intermediate steps for a demonstration where usually hiden from the public, and only the results were shown (for instance, only recently a book that describe the methods of Archimedes was found!). I am certain that Aryabhatta knew many methods commonly used in his days by mathematicians, but that are not preserved fully.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 01:20
lets get back to the thread topic, India itself as a whole doesn't belong to the middle east, but the middle east has influenced parts of Northern India and Pakistan a lot.
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 09:28
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

... 
        Ok i have to ask you back up that claim. Aryabhatta's work was written in verse very different from your traditional Greek style. And of course there were many things which were known by many cultures that doesn't make any one work derivative of another. Here is good commentary on the work of Aryabhatta by an expert in the field.
 
 
Well, I am not downplaying Aryabhatta's work, because he is a genious I admire a lot and I have known all my life.
 
My point was very simple: Greeks, Indians, Iberians, and all the peoples of the Classical times knew each other and where at contact quite often. In the case of Aryabhatta, is just common sense to realize that after the age of glory of math in Alexandria, and given the contacts that city had, among others, with India, some knowledge and techniques reached India as well.
 
Now, with respect to Aryabhatta writing in poetry, you should realize that style is only for presenting the final works. In ancient times (in the West, too), the record of all the intermediate steps for a demonstration where usually hiden from the public, and only the results were shown (for instance, only recently a book that describe the methods of Archimedes was found!). I am certain that Aryabhatta knew many methods commonly used in his days by mathematicians, but that are not preserved fully.
 
 
 
             Well i agree with you. Aryabhatta' work was in a very large part a compendium of previous subcontinental mathematical knowledge. Yet you should realize that it were the many Greeks who came to the subcontinent to study there not the other way round for example Pythagorus came here to study. 
 
            And i disagree with your claim that many important common scientitfic knowledge does not survive to us. If a work is important enough and common knowledge then it should reach us in some exactant work either explicitly or by the indication in some works which hinted at familiarity with that knowledge. Yet many of Aryabhatta's work has no parallels anywhere. Al-Khwarizmi in his writting gives full creadit to Aryabhatta for much of his ideas and he had full access to most of the works of mathematics of his time.
 
          And the role of mathematics in sub-continental traditions goes very far back in time with the clear indstructions of Sulba Sutras for the construction of fire altars. In the Indus Valley Civilization geometric instruments have been found as well as decimal fraction weights.
       
       So of course yes there was much contact between the two nations and exchange of new ideas however to say that the subcontinental mathematics would not go anywhere without the Greeks is in my opinion wrong.            
 


Edited by bilal_ali_2000 - 05-Mar-2008 at 09:33
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 23:51
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

             Well i agree with you. Aryabhatta' work was in a very large part a compendium of previous subcontinental mathematical knowledge. Yet you should realize that it were the many Greeks who came to the subcontinent to study there not the other way round for example Pythagorus came here to study. 
 
That's interesting and I don't doubt it. I know Pythagorus went to study to "Mesopotamia" but there aren't specifics about the region he visited, as far as I know.
 
 
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

            And i disagree with your claim that many important common scientitfic knowledge does not survive to us. If a work is important enough and common knowledge then it should reach us in some exactant work either explicitly or by the indication in some works which hinted at familiarity with that knowledge.
 
As I said before, there are lot of works missing. That's not strange at all. Besides all cultures have periods of glory followed by decadence, and in the bad times many things get lost. And also, as I said before, an example is the Archimedes Palimpset you can find here
 
 
That book was missed during two thousand years! And contains nothing less than the Integral calculus methods used by Archimedes to calculate the volume of the sphere and other volumes. Now, as you know, Archimedes and others Greek mathematicians proposed a formula and prove it by reduction ad absurd or other logical technics. But the way at how archimedes found the formula in the first place was lost during all that time.
 
The methods were hidden in the past. It is very likely as well that many results shown by Aryabatta in poetry were backed by thousand of pages in less poetic calculations. Well those pages don't exist anymore, I believe.
 
 
 
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Yet many of Aryabhatta's work has no parallels anywhere. Al-Khwarizmi in his writting gives full creadit to Aryabhatta for much of his ideas and he had full access to most of the works of mathematics of his time.
 
And he is one of the most respected Indian mathematicians in the West as well.
 
  
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

       So of course yes there was much contact between the two nations and exchange of new ideas however to say that the subcontinental mathematics would not go anywhere without the Greeks is in my opinion wrong.            
 
Yes. Influences go both ways. However, it was the interaction between all the civilizations of the Ancient world, which allow them to go faster. Isolated civilization progress slowly. Just see the case of Incas and Aztecs for instance, isolated of all the other major civilizations in the World.
 
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  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2008 at 07:29
Bulldog, Saba
 
I think when people put Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, India, Bangladesh, Myanmar in the same boat, its in reference to the Hindic Cultural Axis and not neccessarily in regards to language or physical features.
 
India itself is so diverse and unique. One can argue there is no such thing as "Indian" but Gujrati, Rajastani, Bihari, etc.
 
Just like Germany, France, Italy, Spain are within the Greco-Roman cultural axis (or European) Pakistan-Nepal-India-Sri Lanka-Bangladesh-Myanmar are all within the Indian Cultural Axis.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 01:18
^ your axis theory is wrong because if you consider pakistan, Pakistan's areas such as Baluchistan and NWFP were under persians more then Indian through history, so how are they part of indian axis?
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  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 07:50
First of all I consider Pakistan a multicultural nation. However I also understand that a certain majority or elite in Pakistan runs the nation, and even that a certain language is made the national language due to cultural sensitivity and purpose of unity.

Having said that, yes Pakistan can be between two cultures much as Lebanon or Iraq is multicultural. Id also argue you dont know what my axis culture theory really means.

Id also argue your someone else on this forum under a different name. Its up to the mods to prevent this.


Edited by Mughaal - 08-Mar-2008 at 07:51
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 15:28

this axis theory is made by you though, give me evidence that some historian agrees with this theory?

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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 15:44
Mughaal
Bulldog, Saba
 
I think when people put Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, India, Bangladesh, Myanmar in the same boat, its in reference to the Hindic Cultural Axis and not neccessarily in regards to language or physical features
 
There is no cultural continuity between Northern, Western, Eastern India with Sri Lanka, I would love to discover how Sri Lankan and Pakistani culture is similar.
 
These cultural axis don't bare any resemblance to the cultures listed today. 
 
Language also has an impact on culture.
 
Mughaal 
India itself is so diverse and unique.
 
Exactly.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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  Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 19:27
No.  India historically, culturall, linguistically has never had anything to do with the Middle East, it is confined to South Asia with countries like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal.
While it has had several foreign ''Muslim'' Rulers at various times, they were never from the Middle East but were often from Ancient Pakistan/Afghanistan and Central Asia in such small numbers that they're impact was not significant.
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