Which way did R1a1 go?

Good question.

The diference of paternal lineages betwen caste and tribal Indian groups, while maternal lineages are simmilar (native), seems to evidence something. The theory of R1a coming to India (and to Europe) via inmigration makes sense, specially as archaelogy seems to support the theory of IE invasions, ultimately coming from the Volga-Ural region.

On the other hand, if actually India/Pakistan has much wider diversity of sub-lineages of R1a, then it would seem that it is at the ultimate origin.

Assuming that R mutation (M173) is only 30,000 years seems very risky to me, as Europe was clearly populated before that date and other related branches of the P (P+Q+R) branch are absent in Europe. P is a very minor branch, present basically in Central and South Asia, at least according to THIS MAP (in your map is not even clear anywhere), Q is mostly extended in some Siberian regions and America, where is widely majoritary among native peoples.

So, R* (M207) must have formed somewhere in Central or Southern Asia, not after 40,000 BCE, conventional date for the start of colonization of Europe by H. Sapiens (Aurignacian culture). Also R1b must have not formed later than 35,000 BCE, conventional date of the colonization of Western Europe, so R1* (M173) must be older than that. According to your map, RxR1 (sic) is present in small quantities in Uzbekistan and India and in large doses in Cameroun (??). I will assume that the Cameroun data is an error of coloring or data introduction, as I haven't seen such data ever before (it looks like it should rather be E), so I will consider it a typical Indian marker (being stronger among Dravidians).

If we assume, as hypothesis, the origin of R is in India and Central Asia in a date earlier than 40,000 BCE, then, R1 should have moved towards Europe via Russia around that date, a little earler probably. Either R1* or, more likely R1b carriers, would be involved in the developement or at least difussion of Aurgnacian and the subsequent colonization of Central and Western Europe (I'm intentionally ignoring haplogroup I now). Their R1a  cousins would have remained behind in Eastern Europe and Central/Southern Asia.

But it wouldn't just be a pocket somewhere in the Volga-Ural region, but rather a fluctuant clan that would have partcipated in the obscure migrations that affected Western Asia (SW, Central and South Asia) in the Neolithic phase. Therefore, they would have probably been present in the Indian and Central Asian Neolithic and Chalcolithic periods, even before the IE migrations of the Metal Ages would have enhanced their share in Vedic India.

A big deal of Indo-Pakistani R1a would then be of IE (Aryan) origin but part of it could well have reached the region earlier or even just stayed there always. You should fid out more on the density of each of the 5 lineages of R1a and specially of the 4 ones of R1a1, as some of them may be clearly associated with IEs (Central Asian/Eastern Europeans), while others may well be more exclusive of South Asia only. I bet R1a* is typical of somewhere and there should be the origin of the group be looked for.

Originally posted by Maju So, R* (M207) must have formed somewhere in Central or Southern Asia, not after 40,000 BCE, conventional date for the start of colonization of Europe by H. Sapiens (Aurignacian culture). Also R1b must have not formed later than 35,000 BCE, conventional date of the colonization of Western Europe, so R1* (M173) must be older than that.

 

R1b might have formed during or after the last Ice Age 10000 years ago.

M207 must have been before this I guess, but that's about all you can say. I dont get how you derived your figures exactly.

Originally posted by Maju According to your map, RxR1 (sic) is present in small quantities in Uzbekistan and India and in large doses in Cameroun (??). I will assume that the Cameroun data is an error of coloring or data introduction, as I haven't seen such data ever before (it looks like it should rather be E), so I will consider it a typical Indian marker (being stronger among Dravidians).

I also think the Cameroon might be a mistake. It doesnt look right. But haplogroup R is expressed highly in Cameroon. R1b in fact. http://www.u.arizona.edu/~ewood/Wood_et_al_EJHG_2005.pdf 

While African haplogroup R chromosomes are generally quite

rare, R-P25* chromosomes are found at remarkably high

frequencies in northern Cameroon (60.7�94.7%).

P25 is R1b!!

Originally posted by Maju If we assume, as hypothesis, the origin of R is in India and Central Asia in a date earlier than 40,000 BCE, then, R1 should have moved towards Europe via Russia around that date, a little earler probably. Either R1* or, more likely R1b carriers, would be involved in the developement or at least difussion of Aurgnacian and the subsequent colonization of Central and Western Europe (I'm intentionally ignoring haplogroup I now). Their R1a  cousins would have remained behind in Eastern Europe and Central/Southern Asia. But it wouldn't just be a pocket somewhere in the Volga-Ural region, but rather a fluctuant clan that would have partcipated in the obscure migrations that affected Western Asia (SW, Central and South Asia) in the Neolithic phase. Therefore, they would have probably been present in the Indian and Central Asian Neolithic and Chalcolithic periods, even before the IE migrations of the Metal Ages would have enhanced their share in Vedic India. A big deal of Indo-Pakistani R1a would then be of IE (Aryan) origin but part of it could well have reached the region earlier or even just stayed there always. You should fid out more on the density of each of the 5 lineages of R1a and specially of the 4 ones of R1a1, as some of them may be clearly associated with IEs (Central Asian/Eastern Europeans), while others may well be more exclusive of South Asia only. I bet R1a* is typical of somewhere and there should be the origin of the group be looked for.

If you're assuming a middle Paleolithic spread of haplogroup R1a1, haplogroup I would have to have gone south to Pakistan, perhaps after R1a1 went North. It's basically the same scenario and doesnt detract from a mass migration of haplogroup R1a1/haplogroup I containing Iranian-speakers into West Pakistan.

The Aryan invasion theory of India likewise is not disproved by this. It's just a return of R1a1 to the region some 40000 years later. Tribes verses caste Y-chromosome haplogroups, as you say suggest that some sort of large movement into the population occurred. Anyway, the North Indian haplochart looks Krygyz to me, if it's correct.

Edited by ScythianEmpire

Originally posted by ScythianEmpire Originally posted by Maju So, R* (M207) must have formed somewhere in Central or Southern Asia, not after 40,000 BCE, conventional date for the start of colonization of Europe by H. Sapiens (Aurignacian culture). Also R1b must have not formed later than 35,000 BCE, conventional date of the colonization of Western Europe, so R1* (M173) must be older than that.   R1b might have formed during or after the last Ice Age 10000 years ago. M207 must have been before this I guess, but that's about all you can say. I dont get how you derived your figures exactly.

It's simply impossible that R1b would have formed only 10,000 years ago. It must have formed prior to the colonization of Western Europe, which happened c. 35,000 BCE. It is absolutely dominant in WEu, specially  among the most isolated populations (Basques, British Celtics). The  Upper Paleolithic inhabitants of Western Europe must necessarily have been mostly or totally R1b, since the time of the first colonization. That can't be argued, I believe.

That's why I suggest that earlier branchings happened before European Colonization by H. sapiens, which is obviously associated to R1a exclussively - the only doubt would be if some I was already in the gene pool or if it arrived later, but this is irrelevant to our R branch discussion.

Originally posted by Maju According to your map, RxR1 (sic) is present in small quantities in Uzbekistan and India and in large doses in Cameroun (??). I will assume that the Cameroun data is an error of coloring or data introduction, as I haven't seen such data ever before (it looks like it should rather be E), so I will consider it a typical Indian marker (being stronger among Dravidians). I also think the Cameroon might be a mistake. It doesnt look right. But haplogroup R is expressed highly in Cameroon. R1b in fact. http://www.u.arizona.edu/~ewood/Wood_et_al_EJHG_2005.pdf  While African haplogroup R chromosomes are generally quite rare, R-P25* chromosomes are found at remarkably high frequencies in northern Cameroon (60.7�7%). P25 is R1b!!

That's pretty strange. Anyhow notice that northern Cameroonians are among the Afroasiatic-language group, which has an average 20% of R1a. Excessive sampling in that specific region may distort overall results maybe. After all it's a small and not very densely populated area.

Also, notice that your map shows RxR1, which I read as R* and R1*. Would it be R1a it shoud  be clearly in red, not in brown.

But, well, let it be.

Originally posted by Maju If we assume, as hypothesis, the origin of R is in India and Central Asia in a date earlier than 40,000 BCE, then, R1 should have moved towards Europe via Russia around that date, a little earler probably. Either R1* or, more likely R1b carriers, would be involved in the developement or at least difussion of Aurgnacian and the subsequent colonization of Central and Western Europe (I'm intentionally ignoring haplogroup I now). Their R1a  cousins would have remained behind in Eastern Europe and Central/Southern Asia. But it wouldn't just be a pocket somewhere in the Volga-Ural region, but rather a fluctuant clan that would have partcipated in the obscure migrations that affected Western Asia (SW, Central and South Asia) in the Neolithic phase. Therefore, they would have probably been present in the Indian and Central Asian Neolithic and Chalcolithic periods, even before the IE migrations of the Metal Ages would have enhanced their share in Vedic India. A big deal of Indo-Pakistani R1a would then be of IE (Aryan) origin but part of it could well have reached the region earlier or even just stayed there always. You should fid out more on the density of each of the 5 lineages of R1a and specially of the 4 ones of R1a1, as some of them may be clearly associated with IEs (Central Asian/Eastern Europeans), while others may well be more exclusive of South Asia only. I bet R1a* is typical of somewhere and there should be the origin of the group be looked for. If you're assuming a middle Paleolithic spread of haplogroup R1a1, haplogroup I would have to have gone south to Pakistan, perhaps after R1a1 went North. It's basically the same scenario and doesnt detract from a mass migration of haplogroup R1a1/haplogroup I containing Iranian-speakers into West Pakistan.

I is not associated with Iranians except in Iran itself. In Central Asia seems rare. I could be better associated (if any) to other Near Eastern groups such as J, though it seems to have a diferent distribution and probably expanded earlier. I seems still misterious to me but now, after being clearly separated from G, it seems that it is more Near Eastern than anything else, just like J. Though it's at least curious to see the high concentrations of this haplogroup in Scandinavia.

The Aryan invasion theory of India likewise is not disproved by this. It's just a return of R1a1 to the region some 40000 years later. Tribes verses caste Y-chromosome haplogroups, as you say suggest that some sort of large movement into the population occurred.

I don't mean to deny the AIT, I just mean to reduce it to a less overwhelming importance only in the demographic sphere. If R types were already aboundant in India in the Paleolithic only a very refined study can say which sublineages belong to their IE-speaking cousins of Central Asia.

Anyway, the North Indian haplochart looks Krygyz to me, if it's correct.

I disagree: while R and C types are in simmilar proportion, the rest has no correlation at all.