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Who conquered who? Turk or Arab

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Poll Question: Who conquered who? Turk or Arab, in relation to who had most influence
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17 [31.48%]
37 [68.52%]
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Mira View Drop Down
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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who conquered who? Turk or Arab
    Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 07:01
Originally posted by OSMANLI

"This is just a post to incite"

Firstly look at who made this post. You will see that it is i, Osmanli. Have you even read any of my threads? If so you would know that i am not anti-Arab. I speak for what i belive to be true. Even at times upsetting many of the Turks. So dont try and claim that i created this post to incite.

The argument of who conquered who is one that even many historians discuss. Those that have an imature level of nationalism should leave this forum. The topic should not be condemend.

It is you, indeed; one of the few favorite posters of mine!

But I must add, Osmanli:  This thread does seem "insightful."

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  Quote Halevi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 07:25
Originally posted by sedamoun

My father is from Northern Morocco, not far from the Tangiers. It is a very nice country, I have a huge family over there.

I very much liked Turkey, very rich from a cultural point of view, and the people are very generous and welcoming. I did quite the touring.

Halevi, where were you in morocco?

yaamak ve salkl olmak.



I started in Tangiers, and slowly worked my way down to Marrakesh. I was touring with my younger brother, as well as conducting some grad research on Moroccan's satellite television viewing habits... made for a fun paper.

The food was fantastic, and the islamic architecture was incredible (especially fez) ... i've enlarged a number of the pics i took and they now decorate my wall...

I had an awsome time. Very cool country.


"Your country ain't your blood. Remember that." -Santino Corelone
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  Quote Halevi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 07:35
How do you Turks and Arabs feel about the roots of:

a) bellydancing

b) hummus

c) kanafe

d) tea served in glasses

e) the oud

f) the star and crescent symbol

g) the hammam ('turkish' bath)

etc... who culturally colonized whom?


BTW, when you say 'Turk', do you mean the people of Anatolia or the nomadic Turkic speaking peoples who came in successive waves from Central Asia? Or do you mean the Ottomans, specifically?
"Your country ain't your blood. Remember that." -Santino Corelone
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  Quote Halevi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 08:01
Originally posted by Tekir

Moors are not Arabs, they are not even Semitic, am I correct?



Actually, since the moors were, in theory, an admixture of Arab invaders and Berber locals, they *were* semitic, since Berber is also a long lost cousin of proto-semitic.

Most berbers i've meet look more 'middle eastern' than sub-saharan african, although they certainly don't look classically 'Semitic' ie Arabs and Jews.


"Your country ain't your blood. Remember that." -Santino Corelone
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  Quote sedamoun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 08:22

There are many kinds of berbers in north Africa (in Algeria - Kabyls and Morocco - Chlouh in arabic).

The southern ones are more dark skinned than the ones living in the Atlas mountains for example, or the Kabyls in Eastern Algeria who frankly look more like euro-mediteraneans than middle-eastern (or arab).

The "Arabs" in North Africa are the result, as Halevi said it, of Muslim conquerors mixing with the local Berber tribes.

The most important "Moor" dynasties, Almohad and Almoravid, were both Berber.

The Almohad Dynasty (From Arabic الموحدون al-Muwahhidun, i.e. "the monotheists" or "the Unitarians," the name being corrupted in Spanish) were a Berber Muslim religious power which founded the fifth Moorish dynasty in the 12th century, and conquered all northern Africa as far as Egypt, together with Muslim Spain.

Almoravides (In Arabic المرابطو 06; al-Murabitun, sing. مرابط Murabit), is a Berber dynasty from the Sahara which, in the 11th century. Under this dynasty the Moorish empire was extended over Morocco, Gibraltar ,Tlemcen (in modern Algeria) and a great part of Spain and Portugal. The name is derived from the Arabic Murabit, variously translated as religious ascetic or warrior monk.

MOORS: The name derives from the old tribe of the Mauri and their kingdom, Mauretania. It became a Roman province after its last king Bocchus II willed it to Caesar Augustus in 33 BC. Mauretania lay in present-day Morocco and Western Algeria, and must not be confused with the country of Mauritania, which lies more to the south. The name of Mauri was applied by the Romans to all North African natives who were still ruled by their own chiefs, until the 3rd century. The Islamic conquest of Iberia was undertaken by the Moors of the Umayyad caliphate in 711. The Arab Umayyad dynasty of Damascus was transplanted to Muslim Spain, and was responsible for the incorporation of much of the culture and architecture from the old Umayyad capital.

In AD 711, the Moors invaded Visigoth Christian Spain. Under their Berber leader Tariq ibn-Ziyad, they landed at Gibraltar on April 30 and brought most of the Iberian Peninsula under Islamic rule in an eight-year campaign. They attempted to move northeast across the Pyrenees Mountains toward France, but were defeated by the Frankish Christian Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours in 732. The Moors ruled in North Africa, Spain and Portugal (except for small areas in the northwest and largely Basque regions in the Pyrenees) for seven hundred years.

Cheers.

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  Quote Bashibozuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 10:54

bellydancing

What makes bellydancing just Arabic? It is a common culture of Middle East, and expanded even until Greece, Balkans, North Africa etc.

hummus

Hummus is an Arabic dish, though there are many dishes we share and origins aren't much definate at all. Such as the mezes like Baba Gannush, very popular in Syria, and Turkish origined for sure.

And what about shoarma?

tea served in glasses

Again, a regional culture, not national for Arabs or any others.

the star and crescent symbol

That is definately not Arabic. Though no Arab states use those today except Tunusia and Algeria, which were heavily influenced by Ottomans for several reasons, both cultural and historical.

the hammam ('turkish' bath)

The word may be Arabic in origin, but baths in hammam style are inherited from the Roman/Byzanthine culture, not Arabic.

Arabs have never conquered Turkic lands, but many different Turkic empires did conquer most of the Arabic lands in history. From Turgish to Seljuks, and to Ottoman Empire. Culturally, they both shared many cultural elements from each other, as the result of centuries of life together. And Islam, of course...




Edited by Bashibozuk
Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar,
Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar.
Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar,
Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben.
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  Quote Fizzil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 14:13

Osmanli, that flag is the official flag of Umm al Quwain, in the UAE.

Looks like a rip off flag of turkey but with a white rectangular thing on the left of it  

Could be very possibly ottoman influence you know!

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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 15:24

Shukran Fizzil

BasiBozuk. When you say regional surely the culture was started by a people of a land. So it would be much more interesting to see who started such customs.

"BTW, when you say 'Turk', do you mean the people of Anatolia or the nomadic Turkic speaking peoples who came in successive waves from Central Asia? Or do you mean the Ottomans, specifically? "

Hmm. How about we concentrate on Ottoman Turks and Arab influence, however adding Turkic peoples would also add depth. Lets just put anything relevent and of interest

O and before i forget Jazaki to Mira for your lovely comments



Edited by OSMANLI
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  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 18:18
hm...
"Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit"

(="Captive Greece conquered her savage victor")   -Horace

Where Greeks->Arabs
and    Romans->Turks
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 18:48

There is little direct Arabic influence on Turks. Turks got Islam and the Arabic words and literature from Iran. This was before the Seljuk's and later Ottomans' invasion of Arab lands, because we see the same Islamic terms in Turkic languages of Central Asia, where the Seljuks and Oghuz originally came from.

Also, many of these Arabic/Islamic terms and words in Turkish are pronounced the same way as in Persian, which further shows that they came from Persian. Some dont even exist in Arabic, such as 'namaz'.

Looking at the Ottoman Empire, it was found 200 years before invading Arabia. For the Ottomans, Arab lands were not central, they were peripheral, and their cultural influence was limited. Unlike the Balkans (Byzantine culture) and Anatolia (Byzantine, Oghuz and Iranian culture), which were the cultural and economical heartland. 

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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 04:32

Simply looking at the Ottoman empire is limiting the Tukish/Arab relations though. The Seljuks had significant relations with Arabs.

I do agree however on your point about many Arabic influences coming though Iran.

Request: Digines i would very much like to hear your contribution. However please could you stay with the topic. Thanks 

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  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 07:04
(its Digenis)
I was 100 % in the topic.
didnt u understand?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 23:18
Originally posted by sedamoun

Both conquered each other... Except for Morocco who was never occupated by the [HUGE] Ottoman Empire.

Cheers. 

Arabs never conquered Turks. They just took the provinces of Turkish states like Azerbaijan (From Khazars) and Soghdia (From Gok Turks). In those days, Iranic people were living in those regions. Turks reconquered those lands in the 10th and 11th centuries and off course after that, Turkified the regions.

Turks also did not conquer Arabs literally. Seljuks were invited by Arabic Caliph to Iraq. Seljuks kicked the Shiite Buwayhids, restored the Sunni order. After that all Sunnite Arabs except Andulucians became reluctantly the subject of Seljuk Turks. So we can not consider this a real conquest.

THe Shiite Arabs were conquered by Zengi or his lieutenant Salahaddin Eyyubi. Zengi was Turk, though we discussed the origin of Salahaddin and could not agree.

Anyway, Mameluke Turks, who were sold to fatimids by Seljuks, soon regained the control over the Ayyubids. In between 12th and 18th centuries, all Muslims, except Moroccans,  some Arabic Beduins in the central part of Arabian Peninsula, and Indonesians, were under the control of Turkic Dynasties such as Ottomans, Seljuks, Safavids, Khwarezmians, Timurids, Sheep series states , Mamelukes, Timurids, Baburids, Shaybanids, Afsarids, etc...

Turks actually rivalled by Turks themselves in the Islamic era. Turks controlling Roman lands all the time struggled with the Turk governing Iran. It was like the old days of Romans and Parthians/Sassanids, or even Greeks and Persians.

Arabs and Turks had considerably minor conflicts. Yes Khazars and Arabic Caliphate fought for 100 years but, in my opinion, must be considered in the minor importance. And as I have told you, Turkish expansions in the Arabic world is relatively peaceful. The disagreements happened for the sections of Islam. Actually it was not the Turks, but the Sunni Islamic Seljuk forces who was expanding and suppressing the Shiites.



Edited by Tekir
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 23:20

The question is deceiving, people think the question as military.

Azimuth, I think, lets add the word "culture" to the topic, like:

Who conquered who, culturally? Arabs or Turks?

Take care



Edited by Tekir
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azimuth View Drop Down
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2006 at 02:38

i cannot do that without the authorization of the author of the this thread.

 

 

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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 07:34
Originally posted by Tekir

The question is deceiving, people think the question as military.

Azimuth, I think, lets add the word "culture" to the topic, like:

Who conquered who, culturally? Arabs or Turks?

Take care

There is no need my freind, if i may show you my opening comments on page 1:

"Yes, i know the Turks governed the Arabs thanks to Sultan Selim. although who had the most influence. It seems to me that Turkish culture has had a major impact thanks to the Arabs, although one finds it hard to find such influence on the Arabs by the Turks.

Your thoughts..."

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OSMANLI View Drop Down
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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 07:40

Digenis i see what you mean. Just as the Greeks were militaristicaly ruled by the Romans. However the Greeks by far were dominant in relation to infuence. Nice example, i think it wraps it up perfectly although as far as i know the Arabs themselves did not gain many important roles in the empire. The Greeks however were important for being doctors in the Roman empire.

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