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Topic ClosedATATURK!!!

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: ATATURK!!!
    Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 02:31

Nonsense, saying some words dont make it reality.

He is the owner of all country, why should he become traitor to his lands?

Sorry It dont make sense, maybe he is not enough for that situation, but  to call him as traitor is complately nonsense. He was owner  of ottoman, he was ottomans himself. Using english ship to resque his life, and when doing this, not taking any penny, dont count as backstabing.

The sultan ordered Atatrk to crush the rebellion of Rums in that region, not cleanse the country from the invaders and build a republic in the Ottoman borders. Don't be ridiculous. He even ordered Atatrk's execution.

well related to who is commenting  history. Ordering Ataturk execution means nothing, Ataturk also ordered other patriots execution. It is a politic conflict.


 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 02:57

 

looks like everybody Ataturk didnt like were considered "backstabbers and Betryers"

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 03:13

Originally posted by Bar

Originally posted by oTToMAn_TurK

Sultan Vahdettin and Mustafa Kemal pasa knew each other.

What? Am I supposed to be shocked now?

Originally posted by oTToMAn_TurK

yes, it was the sultan who convinced ataturk to go to samsun

The sultan ordered Atatrk to crush the rebellion of Rums in that region, not cleanse the country from the invaders and build a republic in the Ottoman borders. Don't be ridiculous. He even ordered Atatrk's execution.

He ordered to stop Muslim uprisings, because according to the Article 7 of the Mondros Cease-fire Treaty, the Allies could invade anywhere that they consider as a threat to themselves.... 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 03:45
The sultan ordered Atatrk to crush the rebellion of Rums in that region, not cleanse the country from the invaders and build a republic in the Ottoman borders.

but are you then contradicting your first statement becouse the sultan then is not a traitor. coz if u are then my job is done, thanks baris

coz if he did order ataturk (which u didnt show any proof, but i did, anyway) to "crush the rebellions of rum" then he cant be a traitor. can he? he did think about his people and was a good man, wasnt he?

Don't be ridiculous

how am i being ridiculus i dont understand

listen baris its obvuios that u didnt bother reading my post and u only read the bold sentences. next time u reply make sure u understandd fully my point and then quote my post. thank u.

my point was to proove that sultan vahdettin was not a traitor and ataturk onli sed that he was, to get in power himself.

Either your a slave to what MADE-MAN
Or your a slave to what MAN-MADE
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 03:54

Sorry It dont make sense, maybe he is not enough for that situation, but  to call him as traitor is complately nonsense. He was owner  of ottoman, he was ottomans himself. Using english ship to resque his life, and when doing this, not taking any penny, dont count as backstabing.

which was my point exactly atleast some one understood, thanks mortaza

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 03:58

well I dont think there is a rebellion at all anatolia, Ataturk power(given by patisah) consist almost all anatolia, not only coast of  black sea.

And we should not forget, what last parlament  of ottomans did, and what was british reacted. they occupied istanbul. I dont thing patisah  can do much from an occupied city. before it,  Istanbul was not against anatolian rebellion, but even supported it.

Be littleing and blackening ottomans are not such  rare issue at the beginning of Turkey.

 

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 04:39

There were clashes between Pontos Greeks and Muslims and as I said before:

He ordered to stop Muslim uprisings, because according to the Article 7 of the Mondros Cease-fire Treaty, the Allies could invade anywhere that they consider as a threat to themselves.... 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 04:43
Vahdeddin was a traditional leader and while he wanted to keep as much land as possible, he offered to leave all the financial and administrative authority to the control of Brits. He preferred a nominal sovereignty on a large land instead of economic and political independence...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 05:15

Originally posted by kotumeyil

Vahdeddin was a traditional leader and while he wanted to keep as much land as possible, he offered to leave all the financial and administrative authority to the control of Brits. He preferred a nominal sovereignty on a large land instead of economic and political independence...

when your country is under occupation then the ruler is not going to have much say in who controls financial and administrative authority. eg iraq economy is fully controlled by america right now why becouse they are occupied. similar circumstance in turkey then. this is wer the skill of secret coded language comes in which the turks are very good at (see cypriot war 1974, bulent ecevit). Sultan Vahdettin told the pasa's in a similar way under teh wachtfull eye of the occupying forces to go and stop the uprising (which meant opposite, to start the war of independence) . u showd that treaty which meant nothing to ataturk and vahdettin. that was forced onto us to sign.

he offered to leave all the financial and administrative authority

he offered? more like he was FORCED.

He preferred a nominal sovereignty on a large land instead of economic and political independence

i dont think so, just ask ur self taht question. its like an 18 year old saying i prefer to live under the full control of my parents, rather then to live independantly.  think logically, plz. wud any leader not prefer to live independantly from ENEMY forces. he was forced, he didnt prefer.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 05:47

There's a peace proposal of him to the Allies. In this proposal, he proposes not loosing any lands (he even wants some from Bulgaria) but on the other hand he proposes to have an English officer in all governor's offices all over Turkey and he proposes to leave the contorol of finance to Brits. This is his own proposal. I couldn't find the document on the web yet but you can find it in the book Ana izgileriyle Yakn Tarihimiz (1997) by Sina Akin (He took it from the British archives).

Anyway, he helped the independence or not. This isn't the problem. Main problem is that any kings, sultans, khans, etc. are parasites on the peoples. They should be overthrown and what Ataturk did was to overthrow the sultan. You can consider Vahdeddin as a traitor or not, this is up to your ideological view, but the result is the establishment of a republic, which takes its legitimization from the people itself, not from a "superior" descendance of a dynasty.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 06:09
Originally posted by oTToMAn_TurK

coz if he did order ataturk (which u didnt show any proof, but i did, anyway) to "crush the rebellions of rum" then he cant be a traitor. can he? he did think about his people and was a good man, wasnt he?

Actually, Vahdettin was receiving the orders from the British.

But from your point of view, Vahdettin was an angel.

Edited by Barış
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 06:16

your replies are way to narrow and close minded to deserve a proper reply baris so say what u will.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 06:22
Originally posted by kotumeyil

There's a peace proposal of him to the Allies. In this proposal, he proposes not loosing any lands (he even wants some from Bulgaria) but on the other hand he proposes to have an English officer in all governor's offices all over Turkey and he proposes to leave the contorol of finance to Brits.

i wonder what the french, greeks and armenians thought about this peace proposal that would kick them out of ottoman territory. coz if the proposal was to not loose any land then wer talking about iraq, syria, palistine and hijaz. we no that the british wer not men of there word, we know that wen they promised the arabs land. i think vahdettin found out that this proposal was unrealistic and then decided to get an independant turkish state which totally backfired (in his point of view).



Edited by oTToMAn_TurK
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 06:43

Originally posted by Bar

Originally posted by oTToMAn_TurK

coz if he did order ataturk (which u didnt show any proof, but i did, anyway) to "crush the rebellions of rum" then he cant be a traitor. can he? he did think about his people and was a good man, wasnt he?

Actually, Vahdettin was receiving the orders from the British.

But from your point of view, Vahdettin was an angel.

because of your ignorance you wont last long. AT LEAST READ THE POSTS PROPERLY.... THIS POST IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT AND WORTH NOTHING....ANSWER AFTER UNDERSTANDING THE POST AND DONT ANSWER WHEN YOU DONT UNDERSTAND.... YOU JUST MAKE YOURSELF DUMBER

 

life it seems will fade away
drifting farther every day
all i gotta do is pray
nothing matters, no-one else
simply nothing more to give
there is nothing more for me
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 11:15

ok i decided to keep this topic closed,

and people who are intersted in continuing their discussion please open a new thread for each topic.

for examples

a topic about sultan vahedin,

a topic about head scarf,

a topic about how someone decided that the rest of the Turks are ignorant and thought of himself as the wisest ...etc.

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