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A neutral word for you-know-where |
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gcle2003 
King 
Suspended Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 7035 |
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 Topic: A neutral word for you-know-wherePosted: 15-Sep-2005 at 14:44 |
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Coming out of the thread on the Crusades.... Can anyone suggest a nice neutral word for that stretch of land between the Sinai and the Lebanon, and between the Mediterraneand and the river Jordan that doesn't raise somebody's hackles? Israel and Palestine both currently have obvious objections. Moreover Israel and Judaea were rival Jewish kingdoms that rarely if ever included the coast, and Palestine, apart from its modern connotation (i.e. not-Israel), is just the Roman version of Philistia, which is only a part of it. Maybe there's some value-free term in some language from a totally uninvolved part of the world. Like Chinese, maybe?
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Temujin
King
Sirdar Bahadur Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: Eurasia Online Status: Offline Posts: 5221 |
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Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 15:34 |
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well i'm not sure what you mean. the costal strap you refer to (from Turkey to egypt is called the Levante. if you're looking for a synonym for the crusader states then use Outremer.
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Guests
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Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 15:47 |
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Cisjordania might be a good name
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6565 |
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Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 16:59 |
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Palestine is the correct neutral historical name. Israel was created
out of the British mandate of Palestine, name that ws never contested
in that time.
Cisjordan/Cisjordania is not adequate because in Spanish it is synonime of the West Bank territory, anyhow Jordan (ex-Transjordan) has already monopolized the name of the river. I think that Palestine is the correct geographical name with long pedigree of about 2000 years or maybe more, while Israel is just a political name meaning exactly to express the State of the Jews or the Zionist State. Palestinians are the natives of that territory and Israelis are colonists or descendants of colonists that have stabilished there in the last decades. |
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
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Constantine XI
Suspended
Suspended Joined: 01-May-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5711 |
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Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 17:22 |
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Outremer would be the historically correct name for that stretch of
land whilst it was ruled by the Crusaders. Quite literally it was
Frankish for "beyond the sea" - a piece of their civilization that
literally was beyond the sea.
If that is too offensive for our Palestinian/Arab members, then stick to Palestine as that is the historically correct term for most of history. I might suggest Levant, but I think that also includes the coast of such areas as southern Anatolia and Egypt. |
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Guests
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Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 18:58 |
Outremer is already used for the current French overseas dependencies. they are either Rgion d'Outre mr (overseas region, oa Mayotte, St. Pierre et Miquelon), Dpartement d'Outre mr (overseas departement, oa Guyana, Guadaloupe) or Pays d'Outre mr (overseas country French Polynesia) (I'm not sure about these examples, French members may correct me if I'm wrong.) |
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6565 |
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Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 19:28 |
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Outremer is Guadloupe and Martinique...
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
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Tobodai
Tsar 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Location: Antarctica Online Status: Offline Posts: 4310 |
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Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 20:52 |
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LandofDeathandStrifeistan
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
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Decebal
Arch Duke 
Digital Prometheus Joined: 20-May-2005 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 1791 |
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Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 23:33 |
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What about Discordia? Kind of has a ring to it! Levant is a good term, but I believe that it refers to the entire Eastern Mediterranean coast. Southern Levant, maybe? What about Canaan? I know it's a jewish biblical term, but what exactly is its connotation? |
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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi 
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Sharrukin
Chieftain 
Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 00:15 |
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"Canaan" was a term that the Egyptians of the New Kingdom used for southern Palestine, although the term was used even earlier by the Ugaritians, and, even the more ancient Eblaites used the term for a specific region in Syria. An ancient Egyptian term for the whole of ancient Palestine was Retenu.
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gcle2003
King
Suspended Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 7035 |
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Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 01:36 |
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A nice lot of quick answers. Actually I used to say Palestine, which is essentially an Anglicised version of the name of the Roman province, but I ran into some heated opposition from Jewish fundamentalists since it ultimately derives from 'land of the Philistines. Of those on offer, though I appreciate Tobodai's, I think for now I'll plump for Canaan. I'd overlooked that. It seems to be the Biblical name for it before the Hebrews invaded, so I don't see why Jews should object (it would be like the English referring to 'Britain', no?). I can't see why anyone else should object either, but someone probably will. |
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6565 |
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Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 03:53 |
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The question is: if you use Palestine, which is the most valid name
however you look at it, then you are opposed by a small minority of
Jewish fundamentalist and/or Zionists. If you use Retenu
or something of the like, then you would be looked at like a pedantic
jerk by everybody else, and probably by the same Zionists that
protested your use of Palestine as well. So the only logical solution
is to continue using Palestine as always and look upon the minority of
Zionists with the authority and security of not being biased by any
sectarian claim, just by history and common sense. They are the newcomers, they are the ones who have to adapt. Besides, if you read Zionist literature they always used the term Palestine. It's the adequate name. |
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
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Sharrukin
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Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 06:31 |
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The term "Palestine" as an expression of the whole region south of Phoenicia itself, is quite ancient. Herodotus (2.104.3; 3.5.1; 7.89.1) knew of the Suroi hoi en tei Palaistinei, Suron ton Palaistinon, Suroisi toisi en tei Palaistinei, "Syrians of Palestine", which in context describe the Jews. Today the geographical expression "Syria-Palestine" describes the historical region between Mesopotamia and Egypt which also includes Phoenicia.
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Paul
General 
AE Immoderator Joined: 21-Aug-2004 Location: Hyperborea Online Status: Offline Posts: 952 |
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Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 13:19 |
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How about, Latitude 31.47N, Longitude 35.10E Region |
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Light blue touch paper and stand well back
http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
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Sharrukin
Chieftain
Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 23:43 |
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Ah, the region of Jerusalem. I think its a bit too specific. |
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