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Attacking Civilians

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Tobodai View Drop Down
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Attacking Civilians
    Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 21:44
thin a close run war, th ebest option is to end the war as quickly as possible, making things better int he long run, to do this wage the most shockingly brutal war possible.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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  Quote Roughneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 00:10

Originally posted by Bryan

I truly didn't think that you were that naive, Roughneck. With such tactics as Sherman was using, combined with the marauders, murderers, and thieves that followed on his heels like dogs looking for scraps (most of whom were from the South), it's almost impossible for one to say that. Total war was just that: total war.

Yes, it made life very hard on civilians-I'm aware that Sherman's name is still anthema down there-but was there ever a case of lining up innocent civilians and shooting them?  I'm willing to make life a little hard on a civilian population, that's war, but I condemn bombing and mass slaughter of civilians.

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  Quote Roughneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 00:14

It's only a war crime if I lose, my friend.

So if say a foreign commando team was able to snatch George Bush, or one of the leaders indicted for Vietnam, then they have the right to try them?  and what happens when you go to war and in order to win you surrender the very values you profess to be defending?

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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 10:50
Originally posted by Genghis

It's only a war crime if I lose, my friend.

Yeah, I'm more of a pragmatist and not an idealist, like Bismarck.

In human history, it was possible to behave irresponsably and pragmatically, but today we need to be more responsible, otherwise we run the danger of blowing the planet up. Before the development of WMD, ethical conduct and world peace were romantic ideals. In the nuclear world they are prerequisites for survival. 

Calling yourself practical in the shadows of nukes is polishing the brass on the Titanic.

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 14:02
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Before the development of WMD, ethical conduct and world peace were romantic ideals. In the nuclear world they are prerequisites for survival. 

Calling yourself practical in the shadows of nukes is polishing the brass on the Titanic.

I would disagree with that, the world will continue on much the same way it has without nukes, MAD assures that, and in a sense it assures it because it is the practical thing to do.  The same thing happened with chemical weapons during WWII, both sides realized it would be impractical to use them and thus cause huge casualties.

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 14:06

"and what happens when you go to war and in order to win you surrender the very values you profess to be defending?"

I don't think it's so much the means you use as it is the end that you seek that determine what type of person you are.  As you can tell, I believe the ends justify the means.  If bombing civilians or starving them with blockade can get me victory and save the lives of my countrymen, I'll do it.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 14:27
Originally posted by Genghis

Yeah, I'm more of a pragmatist and not an idealist, like Bismarck.

 


That appears to be the reason why the 20th century was the bloodiest ever.

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 19:01
It was after the dismissal of Bismarck that Europe became a powder keg due to the completely unrealistic dreams of Kaiser Wilhelm II.  Before that Bismarck had managed to keep relative peace in Europe.  And again, you can't blame one person for what happened during an entire century.
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  Quote Evildoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 22:00

But he was largely responcible - it was the growth of German power that destabilized Europe. He developed and united Germany, but at the same time brought two world wars upon its head.

I would rather sacrifice "my countrymen" than massacre civillians.

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 15:23
well, I have the same opinion as MT and Evildoer on Bitchmark...
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  Quote TMPikachu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 21:06
Originally posted by Evildoer

But he was largely responcible - it was the growth of German power that destabilized Europe. He developed and united Germany, but at the same time brought two world wars upon its head.

I would rather sacrifice "my countrymen" than massacre civillians.

Bismark or Wilhelm? From what I know, Bismark was the sane one that opposed needless war (and more needless imperialism)

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  Quote Wrageowrapper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 00:25
Ralo I hate to tell you this but that is what we call
GENOCIDE.

At least assimilation or cultural genocide anyways.
Nuenonne Palawa-kani wrageowrapper.
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  Quote white dragon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 18:44
i don't believe there is a case that you can kill civilians aside from if they are shoting at you(in which case i, at least no longer consider them civilians)
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  Quote Evildoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 15:24

Nonsense. If you bomb a city then civillians besides those who "shoot" at you will die. 200,000 Germans were burnt to death in Allied bombings in Dresden during WWII, and 300,000 Chinese killed in cold blood by Japanese troops at Nanjing... they did not even bomb, they bayoneted, cut to pieces, shot, pillaged and raped the populace.

Note: 300,000 would be the equivelant of total American military deaths in Civil War.

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