Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Dispelling Afrocentrist myths, North africans

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dispelling Afrocentrist myths, North africans
    Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 05:13

I am caucasoid, but my skin is such that if I go under the sun for long enough I will look as dark as TutanKhamun up there.  Skin colour cannot be used to prove or disprove race.

Another thing I would like to point out is this: Negroid genes are dominant, caucasoid genes are recessive, Egypt was one of the most populace areas in the world at any given time in ancient history.  How can such relatively few military invaders lighten them?  Have a look at Brazil and the mulattoes there some have more white genes than black but they still do retain their african features over their white features.

You yourself said Coptics looked like Ethiopians, now that I show u they look like MEers you say they are Greeks!!! Egypt as a whole was a coptic country prior to the Islamic invasion.  The Bantu population in Egypt can be explained by the Arab slave traders.

Ancient Egyptians were most probably, and as shown above, caucasoid with Nubian admixture; this would be natural after all given the adjacency (but not Bantu).

Back to Top
Quetzalcoatl View Drop Down
General
General

Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 984
  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 07:06

I am caucasoid, but my skin is such that if I go under the sun for long enough I will look as dark as TutanKhamun up there.  Skin colour cannot be used to prove or disprove race.

 There is no such thing as caucasoid, it is just an old stupid way of classifying people. I'm supposed to be "caucasoid", but i'm sure as hell I'm not related to any arabs in any way whatsoever. Physical traits is very dependent on the environment. Out of the african gene pool you can create whatever race you want. It has been shown human in general is an inbred race as compare to other great ape like the chimpanzee.

 

 

 I've always like this picture, the middle one would be us french, the left one will be germanic and the right one would be japanese. If biology wasn't advance and those 3 group alien to each other, you can easily make 3 races out of them. Old way of classification would claim 2 of the people are caucasoid and one mongoloid, in truth, french people are very celtic haplotypes and scandinavians have a very asiatic haplotype, the mongoloid may be closely more related to the mongoloid at an early time where europe didn't interact. Phenotype is very dependent on environment and less stable, genotype are more stable and last longer. You access you race by the genes not by the look, still the term race is very controversial. For a long time infact french during the revolutiomhad denied any relation with the germanic, they've even claimed the Franks were infact greeks, but your genes cannot lie, there had been a germanic input into the civilisation.



Edited by Quetzalcoatl
Back to Top
Quetzalcoatl View Drop Down
General
General

Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 984
  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 07:17

You yourself said Coptics looked like Ethiopians, now that I show u they look like MEers you say they are Greeks!!! Egypt as a whole was a coptic country prior to the Islamic invasion.  The Bantu population in Egypt can be explained by the Arab slave traders.

 I made the confusion with coptic and orthodox ethiopians. Coptic also having a christian tradition would indicate they are foreign to the land previously but the ethiopian would have more acquired the religion through extrenal contact.

 The coptic must have been foreign to the civilisation, it is obvious such an environment would not generate such light skin people unless through migration, further it is extremely rare for the very ancient egyptians to be portrayed with light skin , this would consist evidence enough that the coptic does originate from this place.



Edited by Quetzalcoatl
Back to Top
Quetzalcoatl View Drop Down
General
General

Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 984
  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 07:47

 

One thing I find ridiculous though blacks claiming Hannibal was black and cleopatra also. cleopatra would have very likely look like a roman, whereas Hannibal would have been related to the phoenician. Although the vast majority of egyptian at the time of cleopatra would have been of african origin, the elite would have most likely been of of middle eastern, greek or even roman origins. That said I don't believe african equate to negroid, african diversity is greater than anywhere in the world, that physically as well as genetically.

Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 08:04
What the heck is "Celtic haplotype"? I bet there hasn't been any more mixed "race" in European history as Celts. Western European haplotype (Hg1 if we follow Y-cromosome maps - always dubious) is pre-IE: Magdalenian... native of Europe since at least 17,000 BCE and maybe since the first colonization c. 35,000 BCE. 
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 08:12

So far as I know Cleopatra was half Phoenecian and half Greek.

And as far as race goes, you're more related to Arabs than Mongols or Bantus.  Skin tone can be explained easily by environment but not bone structure. You can tell an African skull apart from a Mongoloid skull apart from a Caucasoid skull apart from an Australoid skull.

If an anthropologist found your skull in the Middle East in 1000 years how would he know you are not an Arab, and are infact French? He would have to make far more detailed studies such as mineral composition of your teeth or study the wear on them and determine that your diet was not staple to the Middle East.

Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 08:19
Cleopatra was of Greek descent. Her bloodline is well known on the male side passing down the Greek genes. However nothing is known about the backgrounds of the women Ptolemaic kings married. As said negroid genes are dominant, caucasoid genes are recessive. Only a few black queens in the dynasty and Cleopatra would be far from white.
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 09:39
Well we can actually trace every single wife of the Ptolemies. From Arsinoe (daughter of Makedonian king of Thrace) to the Cleopartas and the Berenices they're all recorded, what may be a bit obscure is the wife of Ptolemy I, which I've never seen a name yet.

Anyway, Cleo's father was Ptolemy XI known as Auletes, the only record of any wife is his sister Cleopatra V (now titled as Tryphaina) who gave birth to Ptolemy XII, Ptolemy XIII, Berenice VI and the Cleopatra (VII) we're talking about.

There was actually nothing african about them, we must keep in mind that they were only the rulers and by no means can they represent the entire population's appearance/race.

To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Back to Top
cattus View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1803
  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 14:36

Phallanx, I thought Auletes was Ptolemy XII, and the mystery is Cleopatras grandmother, the mistress of Ptolemy IX,Ill check. In anycase, this is another example of extreme afrocentrism where they(J.A. Rogers in "World's Great Men of Color") takes a gap in her bloodline and assumes they this person must be black, i.e., its a Ptolemic conspiracy.
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 15:35

from this bust it is clear to see that she had no evident negroid features, but what is clearly evident is that she was not the most attractive of women!

Back to Top
Decebal View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Digital Prometheus

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1791
  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 16:41

Here's how the Egyptians themselves viewed the race issue:

The one on the right is Egyptian. Not quite "black", not quite "white"...

Let's take a look at Nefertiti.

Notice that the women are always depicted as lighter than men. I think that this is because they did not spend as much time in the sun, so they're closer to their natural skin color. Note that in the papyrus below, some of the women look like slaves. Still, the nude dancers are representive.

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 16:50
Originally posted by Zagros

from this bust it is clear to see that she had no evident negroid features, but what is clearly evident is that she was not the most attractive of women!

From what I've heard it's far from proven that's her bust.

Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
Quetzalcoatl View Drop Down
General
General

Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 984
  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 21:04

What the heck is "Celtic haplotype"? I bet there hasn't been any more mixed "race" in European history as Celts. Western European haplotype (Hg1 if we follow Y-cromosome maps - always dubious) is pre-IE: Magdalenian... native of Europe since at least 17,000 BCE and maybe since the first colonization c. 35,000 BCE. 

 Celtic haplotype is set of genes that are inherited as one block, it is very frequent among the people relate to a celtic culture. Celtic Haplotype is crude term and can be labelled as something like H-167. Are you getting this. It's a crude term from my part.

Back to Top
Quetzalcoatl View Drop Down
General
General

Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 984
  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 21:11
Originally posted by Zagros

So far as I know Cleopatra was half Phoenecian and half Greek.

And as far as race goes, you're more related to Arabs than Mongols or Bantus.  Skin tone can be explained easily by environment but not bone structure. You can tell an African skull apart from a Mongoloid skull apart from a Caucasoid skull apart from an Australoid skull.

If an anthropologist found your skull in the Middle East in 1000 years how would he know you are not an Arab, and are infact French? He would have to make far more detailed studies such as mineral composition of your teeth or study the wear on them and determine that your diet was not staple to the Middle East.

 

 Do you have a learning disability. Skull shape, skin colour  are known as phenotype. 2 people may have similar skull shapes because they have been living in the same environment but racially not related (assuming no interaction). The difference should be confirmed by taking the DNA and analysed it.  A french cannot be related to an arab simply because of vaguely similar skull shape, it is all in the genes not in the look. The environment can actually make 2 different peoples look similar if they coexist in the same niche.

Back to Top
Quetzalcoatl View Drop Down
General
General

Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 984
  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 21:32
Originally posted by Decebal

Here's how the Egyptians themselves viewed the race issue:

The one on the right is Egyptian. Not quite "black", not quite "white"...

Let's take a look at Nefertiti.

Notice that the women are always depicted as lighter than men. I think that this is because they did not spend as much time in the sun, so they're closer to their natural skin color. Note that in the papyrus below, some of the women look like slaves. Still, the nude dancers are representive.

 

 Actually the first picture clearly back my claims, the egyptian looks like an Ethiopian to me and most african does have the skin colour that match the egyptian, certainly they don't look middle eastern. In fact south african bushmen have much lighter skin colour than that.

 That's an ethiopian man

A sudanese man

 

 

 Notice the clear difference in facial as well as skin colour. .

 

 Ethiopian women (hahhaha some of them looks real good, I've met one once )

 For me these would be how the egyptian would have look in the northern part, even darker more closely ressembling nubian in the first cataract.

 

 Bushman

 Notice the yellowish brown colour skin, flat noise, nothing to do with sudanese or ethiopian.

Bantu still another race with typical phenotype and greatly different genotype

 

Zulu (you don't want to fvck with these one usually tall)

 

 And the list can go on, there is no such thing as negroid race, or Africans as one people. It is a modern invention.

Back to Top
Tobodai View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4310
  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 00:21
Originally posted by Zagros

I am caucasoid, but my skin is such that if I go under the sun for long enough I will look as dark as TutanKhamun up there.  Skin colour cannot be used to prove or disprove race.

Another thing I would like to point out is this: Negroid genes are dominant, caucasoid genes are recessive, Egypt was one of the most populace areas in the world at any given time in ancient history.  How can such relatively few military invaders lighten them?  Have a look at Brazil and the mulattoes there some have more white genes than black but they still do retain their african features over their white features.

You yourself said Coptics looked like Ethiopians, now that I show u they look like MEers you say they are Greeks!!! Egypt as a whole was a coptic country prior to the Islamic invasion.  The Bantu population in Egypt can be explained by the Arab slave traders.

Ancient Egyptians were most probably, and as shown above, caucasoid with Nubian admixture; this would be natural after all given the adjacency (but not Bantu).

 

Dark skin geners are not dominant, negroid types are.  The Egyptians could have been dark without being negroid.  Also it was not a relatively few invaders, Egypt was one of the most invaded countries on earth and it wasnt just military conquest, it was colonization.  It would be like asking why Americans dont look more Native American than they do.

"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Back to Top
Quetzalcoatl View Drop Down
General
General

Suspended

Joined: 05-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 984
  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 02:30

Dark skin geners are not dominant, negroid types are. 

 I disagree on this point. There is no such as a dominant negroid type, that genetically speaking. Suppose an average bantu is the typical "negro" (No racism implies here just to make they don't ban me for racism lol). This specimen would have a set of physical attributes, such eye colour, skull shape, a typical average height, teeth structure, blood groups, etc the list can go on  and on . But here many of these physical attributes are simply continuous rather than discrete(discrete means either they expressed themselves in the offspring or not). Brown eye is a discrete and dominant  trait so if the bantu specimen mate with a blue causasoid specimen, the offspring will be all brown eyes hybrid. that only one of the case of the dominant feature. But skin colour traits are continuous, the offspring will have a skin colour in btw the bantu specimen and the caucasoid specimen. there will be other traits where the caucasoid will be dominant (it could be blood group for instance). So it is wrong to say the negroid type is dominant, because he comes with set of the features some dominant, some recessive and some continuous (that is going to be added). And I can back my theory, portugal used to have in an early time a large population of black, now they have been assimilated by the vast white population. there is no trace of them physically speaking. Same thing with america, most black in american are not even black and has little in common with say a bantu. Infact if trends persist, very few black will exist in american in say 200 years.

Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 05:24

It was relatively few when compared to the millions upon millions of inhabitants, so far as I know there was no mass extermination of Egyptians by any of the invaders. And my point was also that race does not depend on skin color.

Another possibility could be that they are not mixed much and are just lighter skinned East African types.

Originally posted by Tobodai

Originally posted by Zagros

I am caucasoid, but my skin is such that if I go under the sun for long enough I will look as dark as TutanKhamun up there.  Skin colour cannot be used to prove or disprove race.

Another thing I would like to point out is this: Negroid genes are dominant, caucasoid genes are recessive, Egypt was one of the most populace areas in the world at any given time in ancient history.  How can such relatively few military invaders lighten them?  Have a look at Brazil and the mulattoes there some have more white genes than black but they still do retain their african features over their white features.

You yourself said Coptics looked like Ethiopians, now that I show u they look like MEers you say they are Greeks!!! Egypt as a whole was a coptic country prior to the Islamic invasion.  The Bantu population in Egypt can be explained by the Arab slave traders.

Ancient Egyptians were most probably, and as shown above, caucasoid with Nubian admixture; this would be natural after all given the adjacency (but not Bantu).

 

Dark skin geners are not dominant, negroid types are.  The Egyptians could have been dark without being negroid.  Also it was not a relatively few invaders, Egypt was one of the most invaded countries on earth and it wasnt just military conquest, it was colonization.  It would be like asking why Americans dont look more Native American than they do.

Back to Top
Tobodai View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4310
  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 02:47
I think they are so mixed that they might just show up as their own thing.  It however makes sense that they came from somewhere in Africa if you look at the geography.  As the Sahara started to dry out it only makes sens you owuld coalece around the nearby fertile river valley.  This could explain why even the ancient Egyptians had a good mix DNA of mmediteraians and africans.  Mass migration from geological events.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.133 seconds.