QuoteReplyTopic: Did Jesus Christ really exist? Posted: 08-Apr-2007 at 14:45
Originally posted by Zaitsev
Originally posted by gcle2003
Originally posted by Timotheus
It is amazing that people still question the historical figure of Jesus. One might as well question the historical figure of Julius Caesar because there are in fact more source texts from the general era that refer to Jesus than to Caesar.
Tosh. We've been here before, only then it was Tiberius.
There are far, far, far more textual and other references to Julius Caesar during his lifetime that there are to Jesus. In fact there are more to any Caesar you care to pick.
What is really amazing is that anyone still thinks he can get away with this sort of wildly inaccurate statement.
I believe Jesus was a historical figure on the balance of all the evidence, but it is certainly not 'thoroughly ridiculous' to question his historicity: certainly not as totally ridiculous as it is to assert that there are more contemporary references to him than to Julius Caesar.
There are I suspect more textual references to Caesar in De Bello Gallico alone than there are to Jesus in the Gospels. And De Bello Gallico was certainly written in his lifetime, just like all the other 'debello's - Civili, Hispaniensis, Africo, Alexandrino.
And the inscriptions ... and the statuary ... and the consular rolls....
Now, of course, Caesar never claimed to be God (or if he did, nobody takes him seriously anymore). And it ultimately cannot be absolutely proven by human logic that He was God. That is something that must be either believed to be true or believed to be not true. However, it is thoroughly ridiculous to question the historicity of Jesus Christ.
Straw Man.
Why don't you stop demonstrating you have no idea what that means?
You've mentioned number of references within texts, when what was being said was number of texts.
So define for me what you mean by a text. I hear people say during church services that they are reading 'a text from the Gospels'. Since they do that pretty well every week, I naturally assume you can have more than one 'text' in a book.
Anyway, if you just take the various 'de bello' books there are at least five written in Julius Caesar's lifetime, even if he didn't write three of them. Where are the ones written in Jesus's lifetime?
Also you totally ignore the point that each coin bearing the name is an individual textual reference. 'Texts' aren't just books.
You have also failed to produce any evidence regarding number of texts,
!
I specifically named five. You want me to provide evidence that Caesar wrote De Bello Gallico and De Bello Civili? What more do you want - evidence that the sun rose today?
whereas evidence has been produced for the other side regarding the Tiberius argument.
Ignoring the fact that here we were discussing Julius not Tiberius, where was that done? Where are the contemporary texts referring to Jesus (except for Josephus, which I grant)?
The first thing you are going to go for is coins, however, we are addressing strictly textual references so I'll head that off.
No we're not. You don't get to define what we were discussing. Or what is evidence. The writing on a coin is just as much a text as the writing in a book. In fact, if anything it is better evidence. People don't put the names of contemporary emperors and kings and others on coins unless they exist.
An English penny from 1886 is very strong evidence that there was a Queen Victoria at the time (and that she at least claimed to be Empress of India). However, the reference to Pippin IV as King of France in Steinbeck's book definitely does not prove there was a King Pippin in France in the 1950s.
The question, especially in light of the commemoration of His glorious
Resurrection, is not so much did He exist, but rather does He exist, and the answer is resoundingly, and demonstrably "Yes!"
The historical question here does not interest me as much as it might have years ago; the way I see it, there is a bit of circumstantial evidence for the historical Christ. While there is more evidence for his existence than might be expected for that of a man who was, in the eyes of the Romans a no-account Jew (indeed the Christian Church today is a part of that evidence which may be traced back to Apostolic times), and while this evidence is more than enough (and perhaps even entirely superfluous) for those who believe, it will never be enough for those who do not believe to definitively say that there was, in fact, a historical Jesus. Indeed, these individuals are often justified in their skepticism from a historiographical perspective; there are problems with clearly defining Christ as a historical person, using traditional methods. This difficulty presents no obstacle to the faith. It deals with the historical analysis of One who we Christians know exists. What is problematic, however, is that some would try to infer impious things from the fact that there is limited evidence for a historical Jesus. Some would infer that because defining Him historically is difficult, He may never have existed historically, and thus, does not exist.
For those who follow Him, however, Jesus Christ is more than a historical person. He is present all around us, abides in us, and if we let Him, works through us. Thus, the knowledge of Christ, for the Christian, is experiential; we know Him through our connection in private prayer and in public worship, in times of joy and times of hardship, in our filial adoration of Him and in our fraternal connection to each other. For the Christian, He simply IS.
Indeed it is laughable that we now question the existence of the self-existent One, who is Existence itself, attempting to use our trite systems of historical analysis to reach beyond history--indeed beyond temporal definition itself--and into He who is incomprehensible and eternal.
I think, in this discussion, that we need to be ever conscious of the different epistemological approaches to the ontological question: "Christ?"
Akolouthos, I have no quarrel with most of that, except that as a matter of principle I would refer to Jesus, rather than Jesus Christ, since I don't accept the religious beliefs inherent in using the designation 'Christ'.
Akolouthos, I have no quarrel with most of that, except that as a matter of principle I would refer to Jesus, rather than Jesus Christ, since I don't accept the religious beliefs inherent in using the designation 'Christ'.
But gcle2003, isn't Christ just Jesus' last name?
I take your point, and think that it serves to further clarify the discussion. It is always important to designate exactly what/What (or who/Who) we are attempting to speak about.
When we explore His existence from a purely historical perspectived, we must investigate Jesus of Nazareth; when the faithful explore it prayerfully and experientially, we immerse ourselves in Jesus the Christ. My motivation for concluding my last post with the question "Christ?" without also citing the equally pertinent question "Jesus?" was twofold. First, I believe that the designation "Christ" covers both the historical and transcendant aspects of Jesus' being, and second, I just thought it sounded so much better.
Actually Buddhism presents a bigger problem here than either Christianity or Islam or Judaism.
I always refer to Gautama, not 'the Buddha' or, even worse, 'Buddha', but I'm not sure that a purist might not say Siddhartha, and Siddartha Gautama is too much to type. There were of course lots of Gautamas at the time, and only one Siddartha that I know of, but I'm old-fashioned enough to use the family name (when there is one) unless I've been accepted on familiar terms.
I take your point, and think that it serves to further clarify the discussion. It is always important to designate exactly what/What (or who/Who) we are attempting to speak about.
When we explore His existence from a purely historical perspectived, we must investigate Jesus of Nazareth; when the faithful explore it prayerfully and experientially, we immerse ourselves in Jesus the Christ. My motivation for concluding my last post with the question "Christ?" without also citing the equally pertinent question "Jesus?" was twofold. First, I believe that the designation "Christ" covers both the historical and transcendant aspects of Jesus' being, and second, I just thought it sounded so much better.
-Akolouthos
Sensible. Incidentally I like to call followers of Jesus's teaching who do not accept his divinity as 'Nazarenes', since I can't think of an natural-sounding adjective from Jesus.
Actually Buddhism presents a bigger problem here than either Christianity or Islam or Judaism.
I always refer to Gautama, not 'the Buddha' or, even worse, 'Buddha', but I'm not sure that a purist might not say Siddhartha, and Siddartha Gautama is too much to type. There were of course lots of Gautamas at the time, and only one Siddartha that I know of, but I'm old-fashioned enough to use the family name (when there is one) unless I've been accepted on familiar terms.
You have just given me an itch to re-read that Hesse novel, whichy I can't seem to find at this moment. Have you any idea how much precious time you have cost me?
Sensible. Incidentally I like to call followers of Jesus's teaching who do not accept his divinity as 'Nazarenes', since I can't think of an natural-sounding adjective from Jesus.
You might also try "Galileans." Julian the Apostate referred to us as such out of a fear owing to his neo-Platonic belief in the power of names. I definitely think you are right to make the distinction; we would do well to distinguish between Christians and those who think Christ was a teacher to be admired and followed but refuse to accept Christian Christological definitions.
In some ways it might have been better if he never did exist.
Can anyone list the actual primary sources for his existence cos that would be a good starting point to find out if he was a historical person.
Well, we have the Gospels, the Epistles, and the writings of the Apostolic Fathers for starters. Their temporal proximity to the events they chronicle/proclaim, coupled with their obvious depth of devotion make them difficult to write off entirely, as we are often want to do. Still, they are not strictly historical sources, with the possible exception of portions of the writings of Luke. I believe there are also some references to His followers in secular sources, which most scholars would not view as definitive of His existence.
As for your opening statement, I believe you need to clarify it; otherwise it is completely extraneous.
I was just thinking about religious conflict in the world...ie the crusades etc. I also think other religions have been lost through the dominance of th early church and this to me is a loss of a way of life. It was just a remark pointing towards the fact the Christain church has many terrible deeds to its name as well as many good deeds. I in no way meant to offend.
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