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Jugoslavia or just Great Serbia

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tzar View Drop Down
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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Jugoslavia or just Great Serbia
    Posted: 15-May-2005 at 18:51

I know that most of you don't know anything about this and this won't be one of the most interested topics, but let me inform you about one plan, because of which has died many people

Firstly Jugoslavia means "the country of the south slavs" (from "jug" - south, and slavia - slavs or land of the slavs). The aim of this plan is to unite all south slavs under the authority of the serbians or to restore the Dushan's empire as included in and Bulgaria. The first plan for the creating of Jugoslavia is made in 1848. In general it foresaw the following: creating of a country named Jugoslavia as an union of three tribes (Croatian, Serbian, Bulgarian) under the great power of Belgard. Although according to this plan under the jurisdiction of "the serbian tribe" fall territories on which serbian leg was stepped only as a tourist I have to confess that it is pretty liberal. This plan foresaw every one of the tribes to have his own government, language, religion, but approved from the king /you can imagine who would be the king and how he would approve the governors.../

At great lenght so called "the three apostles of Jugoslavia - Ilia Grashin, Milosh Miloevich, Stoian Novakovich" explain how Serbia must create this country. Firstly Serbia must use Russia to weak the Ottoman empire and simultaneously with this to stop the Russian influence into the captive Bulgaria. For that purpose was foresaw opening serbian schools in Bulgaria and Macedonia, training on bulgarians in Serbia and so on. With liberation of Bulgaria at 1878 the plans have changed and the aim became the Dushan's empire. Thanks to the lack of foresight of the Bulgarian government and with the help of the Entente after WWI Serbians realized their dream.

This is the short version. If some of you are interested in I can narrate you in details about this plan.

One interesting map

http://www.kroraina.com/knigi/srbi/karta1.html

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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2005 at 19:41

I had posted a reply earlier, which did not transmit due to Forum web site problems. Now, I will simply try to reconstruct. As is obvious from your posting--and actually reflects the 'why' behind Serbia's current problems--is the persistence of a 'false' Pan-slavic myth generated by 19th century whimsy. The idea of a 'jugoslavia' is hardly a product envisioned by either the Slovenes or the Croats, who had established a workable autonomy within the old Austro-Hungarian state prior to 1908.

Yet, it is symptomatic that such fancy continues to thrive. That Versailles forged a fantasy on the map and only yielded another assassination should be a cause for concern. Nor can we ignore that the fantasy persisted solely as a consequence of a dictatorship 'shaped' by the Croat Tito. Balance was maintained solely in terms of a 'moderating' personality power.

Despite this experience, Serbia today continues to hide behind a myth and view itself as a continuation of a 'history' fractured long ago.

Now is not the time to discuss the tensions raised by the dissolution of the Ottoman state in the 19th century, but it is an appropriate moment to install a respect for the difference between a long dead 'mini-imperial' dream and current reality. That the Serbian leadership does not wish to create a modern European state and is constantly appealing to 'history' represents one of the great 'blocks' to a sympathetic hearing when it comes to situations with 'minorities'. Thus, as touches Kosovo, Serbia shot itself in the foot as far as the Albanian minority is concerned, and might do so again in the Vojvodina within the immediate future.

Then there is the continued impasse in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Today's Europe is not that of 1848--have you wondered why that date is significant--and Serbia's leadership must come to grips with this fact for the betterment of the Serb people as a whole.

 

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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2005 at 05:35
Originally posted by drgonzaga

I had posted a reply earlier, which did not transmit due to Forum web site problems. Now, I will simply try to reconstruct. As is obvious from your posting--and actually reflects the 'why' behind Serbia's current problems--is the persistence of a 'false' Pan-slavic myth generated by 19th century whimsy. The idea of a 'jugoslavia' is hardly a product envisioned by either the Slovenes or the Croats, who had established a workable autonomy within the old Austro-Hungarian state prior to 1908.

The idea for Jugoslavia is created by people who were "near to the serbian goverment". Tha base on this idea was put in the end of 19 century when still Croatia and Slovenia are under Ottoman yoke. I don't know what is the nationality of these people but it is a fact that they were working for Serbian government. The aim was Serbians to rule the whole penunsila. On this map which I post here you can see all kind of serbo~ tribes even Serbo-rashkani (Rashka-mideveal name of Serbia).

It's true that some of Serbians still living with the hope for  rising of Jugoslavia and really hate us about our position in the Kosovo war. It's true that Serbians don't want "to leave" Bosnia and Hertcegovina and Macedonia......

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  Quote giani_82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2005 at 12:37

Tis true. Still Romania was another state that desired to form a federative-republic including Bulgaria. The first Bulgarian legion created at Belgrad was to complete Rakovski's plan to move a unit onto Stara Planina and start a rebellion, yet the Serbs supported it and trained the officers with the intention to later include Bulgaria in their own territory (under their crown).

Still this is an early step of the bulgarian revolutionary ideas development - Georgi Rakovski being the first to actually create a plan for the achievement of a free Bulgarian state. And later in some of his diplomatic visits in the region alongside these of the rest of the immigrants they were quite supportive to the idea of a federation that included Bulgaria in one of our neighbours' territory. Later, however, such ideas were dropped and revolutioners such as Levski saw the only chance of recieving freedom in a massive rebellion that is to occur with little to none help from abroad.

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2005 at 11:58

Just Serbia.

 

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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2005 at 12:57
Originally posted by Spartakus

Just Serbia.

What do you mean? All people who were living in Jugoslavia are Serbians?! 

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2005 at 14:49
I think he means that he would prefer just Serbia existing. I understand where he is coming from. The Greeks have enough problems with Turkey. Another potential threat to the north would make Greece a country of white-haired people.
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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2005 at 20:43
Potential threat? I don;t think those poor balkans countries full of civil war is much of a threat to Greece..
http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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  Quote Capt. Lubber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2005 at 03:24
I think they should stop switching names. I never get the time to remember them. First it's Jugoslavia, now it's a thousand small countries. Is Czechoslovakia one or two countries now? All of wich voting for each other so that no western-european country can win the eurovision.
Loke, Attila, the grete conqueror,
Deyde in his sleep, with shame and dishonour,
Bleedinge ay at the nose in dronkenesse,
A captayin shoulde live in sobrenesse
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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2005 at 09:25

This happen when somebody try to fabricate and to force hundreds of people to follow his crazy idea. BTW, Czechoslovakia are two countries - Czech republic and Slovakia .  

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2005 at 13:51

Western Europe has no problem with the breakup of large countries into smaller ones, because smaller ones will have less economical, political, and military power compared to the larger states.

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tzar View Drop Down
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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 06:59
Exactly!!! Divide and rule!
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 08:07
Originally posted by Belisarius

I think he means that he would prefer just Serbia existing. I understand where he is coming from. The Greeks have enough problems with Turkey. Another potential threat to the north would make Greece a country of white-haired people.
The closest Balkan threat is Albanian nationalism.The others do moy consist any kind of threat,especially Serbia.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 09:23

I pointed a Croat friend of mine at this and he responded:

Interesting it was but with ,seemingly,lot of misunderstandings, like that "The idea of a 'Yugoslavia' is hardly a product envisioned by either the Slovenes or the Croats",which is not completely the truth because some prominent(not all of course)Croatian politician were actively promoted idea of Yugoslavia at beginning of 20-th century, mostly to get away from the control of Austria-Hungary empire,and two persons who are considered to be responsible at most for establishment of Yugoslavia after WW2 are Josip Broz Tito,who was Croat,and Edvard Kardelj, who was Slovenian. With others of course,but those two are considered to be crucial.

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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 18:24

Well I don't know who is "the father" of this idea - Serbians, Croats or Slovenians! But this idea is the base of the serbian chauvinism. Maybe this idea really is promoted by Croats or Slovenes, but Serbians accepted it as national doctrine. Jugoslavia was created in 1923 when Austria-Hungary didn't exist anymore. The capital was and still is Belgrad, the official language is Serbian, the official religion is Serbian orthodox! All names in the country /especially in Macedonia and Bosnia/ where changed as being replaced with the serbian suffix ~ich. All wars in Jugoslavia in the last 15 years were waged from Serbia against the others in this union.

About Tito he really did much for "the progress" of Jugoslavia and he is a croat. Most of the outrage upon Bulgarians, Albanians and Bosnians are exactly during at his ruling. "Macedonia" also was fabricated by his people. And if Jugoslavia was so nice place for the Croats why they now are independent country?

If you can read on Cyrillic look at the map above. All tribes in the Balkans, there are Serbians - serbocroats, serboslovenes, serbobulgarians, serbomacedonians and serboserbians... This map is a deed of Milosh St. Miloevich /1840-1907/ - bookman and historian. Exactly this map was issued again from the Serbian academy of the science and the art in 1991 at the head of doctor Simo Chirkovich!

On Milosh Miloevich belongs words "when the Bulgarians accepted the christianity they accepted with it and the old serbian language" and "after the death of Simeon and Peter those tataro-turks hordes disappeared from the face of the holy serbian land. For that we must thank on the Madjars and the Pechenegs and the Russian knias Rostilav, all they with their armies came here and exterminated the mongols" and many many more of this kind....

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  Quote Achilles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 19:39
Dont forget that it was the serbians who killed of thousands of ethnic germans under Josip Broz (better known as Tito). dont you think that the Serbians should at least agnolage that they have done this?(alittle besdies the point of reunificataion).

Has anyone stopped to think about the Croat and the bosnian position on this? i mena afterall the serbians want to get rid of them
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