Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Jalianwala Bagh Massacre

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Venkytalks View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jan-2013
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 82
  Quote Venkytalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Jalianwala Bagh Massacre
    Posted: 21-Feb-2013 at 02:40
David Cameron expressed regret yesterday

Indian media is asking for formal apology.

What actually happened? 

It was the second worst massacre under British rule of unarmed civilians, worst being after the mutiny of 1857.

Less than a hundred Indian soldiers fired upon the civilians in the park. 350 were killed by firing, many others died in the stampede. 1650 rounds were fired.

To me the real villains in the piece were the Gorkhas and the Baluchi soldiers who fired. A single Englishman General Dyer asked them to fire into their own countrymen. 

And they did as ordered. 

If they wanted, they could have turned their guns against General Dyer instead. But they did not.

This is the strange history of British occupation throughout the 200 years. The Indians never rebelled except in 1857. 

There is something seriously wrong with our people that they would kill their own countrymen if ordered by a foreign ruler.



I find nothing wrong with what Dyer did - three Britishers had been murdered, a British woman had been raped by the unruly mobs of Lahore and Amritsar. He did what was right for his country - he created a fear which helped another 20 years of rule.

He paid the price also - of losing his commission and losing his CBE for gallantry much earlier in his life during the Afghan wars.

The British were also very canny - they did not take the majority Sikh troops for firing at the crowd. They took Gurkhas from far away - who were loyal soldiers. They took Baluchi soldiers who had faithfully served against the Afghans in the wars and had personal loyalty to General Dyer.

I suppose one might say - Baluchis are from Pakistan. Gurkhas are from Nepal (Although Gurkhas are agitating for Gurkhaland in Darjeeling, where the refugees from Nepal have outnumbered the local people). But in those days, all were Indians, there was only one country ruled under one law administered by the British.

They could have said no - to a massacre of civilians. This is not like pushing a remote control firing button like a drone strike. This is shooting people, killing them - but continuing to shoot. 

I also find it strange that earlier massacres by Afghan and Uzbek generals like Ahmed Shah Durrani who massacred 70-80000 Marathas, Akbar who massacred 100,000 men of Vikramaditya Hemu, the Massacre of entire population of Hampi etc  are always ignored by the history text books. Those massacres were accompanied by individual cruelties of savage proportions like civilians being beheaded to create a mountain of skulls, women being mass raped and such horrors.

But one Jalianwala Bagh is remembered a hundred years later. It was the least of the massacres which have occurred in India.




Venky
Back to Top
Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2013 at 08:56
Originally posted by Venky Talks

David Cameron expressed regret yesterday

Indian media is asking for formal apology.

What actually happened? 

It was the second worst massacre under British rule of unarmed civilians, worst being after the mutiny of 1857.

Less than a hundred Indian soldiers fired upon the civilians in the park. 350 were killed by firing, many others died in the stampede. 1650 rounds were fired.

To me the real villains in the piece were the Gurkhas and the Baluchi soldiers who fired. A single Englishman General Dyer asked them to fire into their own countrymen. 

And they did as ordered. 

If they wanted, they could have turned their guns against General Dyer instead. But they did not.

This is the strange history of British occupation throughout the 200 years. The Indians never rebelled except in 1857. 

There is something seriously wrong with our people that they would kill their own countrymen if ordered by a foreign ruler.



I find nothing wrong with what Dyer did - three Britishers had been murdered, a British woman had been raped by the unruly mobs of Lahore and Amritsar. He did what was right for his country - he created a fear which helped another 20 years of rule.

He paid the price also - of losing his commission and losing his CBE for gallantry much earlier in his life during the Afghan wars.

The British were also very canny - they did not take the majority Sikh troops for firing at the crowd. They took Gurkhas from far away - who were loyal soldiers. They took Baluchi soldiers who had faithfully served against the Afghans in the wars and had personal loyalty to General Dyer.

I suppose one might say - Baluchis are from Pakistan. Gurkhas are from Nepal (Although Gurkhas are agitating for Gorkhaland in Darjeeling, where the refugees from Nepal have outnumbered the local people). But in those days, all were Indians, there was only one country ruled under one law administered by the British.

They could have said no - to a massacre of civilians. This is not like pushing a remote control firing button like a drone strike. This is shooting people, killing them - but continuing to shoot. 

I also find it strange that earlier massacres by Afghan and Uzbek generals like Ahmed Shah Durrani who massacred 70-80000 Marathas, Akbar who massacred 100,000 men of Vikramaditya Hemu, the Massacre of entire population of Hampi etc  are always ignored by the history text books. Those massacres were accompanied by individual cruelties of savage proportions like civilians being beheaded to create a mountain of skulls, women being mass raped and such horrors.

But one Jallianwala Bagh is remembered a hundred years later. It was the least of the massacres which have occurred in India.




 
A tragedy to be sure. And I offer no excuse or severe condemnations, in part, as well. But as to whether countrymen can fire and kill fellow countrymen? Tis absurd to believe they can not, have not, or will not. The historical record is replete with examples.
 
Discipline is a funny thing. Orders.... for many throughout history... were orders. Cultures and sub ethnicities within them; who adopt or were identified with strong warrior cultures and ethos are capable of anything..for a myriad of reasons. To include proving loyalty. Or to ensure their own survival as a subculture. And the prestige and perceived honor they feel is either due them or should be, conquered or conqueror. Whether in the hindsight of history.....that's right or wrong is best left to philosophers and theologians.
 
As a historian, I agree it's a example of an atrocity as defined in the modern age.
 
But had it occurred 200 years prior? Probably a footnote, if that, in the then contextual history of the era and cultural expectations of an expansionism effort by an outside agency.
 
Brother's have killed brother's from time immemorial...and they still do. Why?
 
Seek the answer from anthropologists, psycho-babblers and sociologists...who coincidentally didn't exist in the sense you or I know 200 years ago.
 
 
And in general they get it wrong.....
 
 
Why?
 
Because their not qualified and trained objective historians.
 
Who seek to examine the era and context of the event. But rather, in the case of the former, would condemn or condone from their own contextual viewpoint because it serves the agenda they strive to establish.
 
 
And probably seek a TV show or a book to prove the monetary and 'professional' veracity of their profession and opinions.
 
 
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Back to Top
Venkytalks View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jan-2013
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 82
  Quote Venkytalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 04:41
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

 
 
A tragedy to be sure. And I offer no excuse or severe condemnations, in part, as well. But as to whether countrymen can fire and kill fellow countrymen? Tis absurd to believe they can not, have not, or will not. The historical record is replete with examples.
 
Discipline is a funny thing. Orders.... for many throughout history... were orders. Cultures and sub ethnicities within them; who adopt or were identified with strong warrior cultures and ethos are capable of anything..for a myriad of reasons. To include proving loyalty. Or to ensure their own survival as a subculture. And the prestige and perceived honor they feel is either due them or should be, conquered or conqueror. Whether in the hindsight of history.....that's right or wrong is best left to philosophers and theologians.
 
As a historian, I agree it's a example of an atrocity as defined in the modern age.
 
But had it occurred 200 years prior? Probably a footnote, if that, in the then contextual history of the era and cultural expectations of an expansionism effort by an outside agency.
 

 
 

Thats perhaps the point - it ocurred just a hundred years ago. And so its in modern age

200 years ago, you added a couple of zeroes to the massacre fatality figure !!!

For example, 100,000 Marathas massacred in 3rd battle of Panipat (I remember it like that because 100,000 is a round figure. Actual figure is maybe 70,000 ?
Venky
Back to Top
balochii View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-May-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 699
  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 09:56
^ the difference is that in wars massacres happen, what the british did was not during a war, it was so random, nobody expected it. This is why apology was a must

and who will apologize for maratha massacre anyways? afghans?
Back to Top
Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 12:06
I understand your point. But would state that war is not the only environment in which massacres or genocides can be perpetrated. Stalin and Pre WW2. is the classic example of massacre by another name; be it pogram...purge....or 'reducation.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Back to Top
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17084
  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 12:12
...or insane...Big smile
Back to Top
Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2013 at 12:17
That too. Wink
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Back to Top
oxydracae View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 26-Feb-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 107
  Quote oxydracae Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2013 at 10:27
Originally posted by Venkytalks

This is the strange history of British occupation throughout the 200 years. The Indians never rebelled except in 1857.
  
I think you forgot the Communist Movement inspired from Russian Revolution during 1920's

Originally posted by Venkytalks

There is something seriously wrong with our people that they would kill their own countrymen if ordered by a foreign ruler.
 
Reginald Dyer was born in Punjab. So I believe he was more Punjabi than those Gurkha, Afghan or Baluch gunmen. Secondly, various ethnical groups in Indian Subcontinent don't have much cultural affinities with each other, just like various ethnical groups in Europe.

Originally posted by Venkytalks

I find nothing wrong with what Dyer did - three Britishers had been murdered, a British woman had been raped by the unruly mobs of Lahore and Amritsar. He did what was right for his country - he created a fear which helped another 20 years of rule.
 
By this statement are you justifying all the genocides, pogroms and massacres that happened in history, because every such program has some hidden political gains.

 



Back to Top
Venkytalks View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jan-2013
Location: India
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 82
  Quote Venkytalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 09:45
Originally posted by oxydracae

Originally posted by Venkytalks

This is the strange history of British occupation throughout the 200 years. The Indians never rebelled except in 1857.
  
I think you forgot the Communist Movement inspired from Russian Revolution during 1920's

Originally posted by Venkytalks

There is something seriously wrong with our people that they would kill their own countrymen if ordered by a foreign ruler.
 
Reginald Dyer was born in Punjab. So I believe he was more Punjabi than those Gurkha, Afghan or Baluch gunmen. Secondly, various ethnical groups in Indian Subcontinent don't have much cultural affinities with each other, just like various ethnical groups in Europe.

Originally posted by Venkytalks

I find nothing wrong with what Dyer did - three Britishers had been murdered, a British woman had been raped by the unruly mobs of Lahore and Amritsar. He did what was right for his country - he created a fear which helped another 20 years of rule.
 
By this statement are you justifying all the genocides, pogroms and massacres that happened in history, because every such program has some hidden political gains.

Agreed on the Gorkha and Baluchi point.

All these massacres are a part of our barbaric past. This is history not current morality. If in 100 years only two massacres ocurred I.e. post 1857 and Jalianwala bagh and in both instances there was provocation by prior Indian violence then it is an example of restraint from British.

If British hadnt fired then there might have been general violence against the British. 

Even now drones kill innocent civilians daily.

British were restrained rulers. Things cannot be in black and white.


Edited by Venkytalks - 04-Mar-2013 at 09:46
Venky
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.027 seconds.