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How did the Celts lose so much ground in Europe?
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Posts: 126 		  Quote heyamigos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How did the Celts lose so much ground in Europe?
    Posted: 15-Sep-2012 at 06:41
I believe the Celts (Kelts) were the earliest Indo-European (Aryan, Ireland named after these tribes?) to infiltrate Europe from the east and pushed westward.  You find signs of their past inhabitance in all of Britain, Spain, France, southern Germany/Austria and some suspect western parts of present day China.
 
What happened to them?  They were largely pushed back/absorbed by later bands of Latin (ie Roman) and Germanic tribes.  A lot of Europeans might have Keltic blood without knowing it
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Posts: 6084 		  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2012 at 07:21
Britain and Ireland is still hoochin' with celtic blood, and I think Brittany in France may have a few too.
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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Posts: 1748 		  Quote Toltec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2012 at 12:27
I afraid they don't exist on the archaeological record and DNA nowadays has pretty much shown there was no migration to Europe in that time period.
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Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2012 at 13:09
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Britain and Ireland is still hoochin' with celtic blood, and I think Brittany in France may have a few too.
With a rough calculation we can estimate that at least 30% of the present inhabitants of France have among their ancestors living 2100 years ago a majority of them who were speaking a Celtic language.
In French Brittany, this % should be higher. 
Thus, I define Celts as those who were speaking a Celtic language.
The "Celtic blood" cannot be defined as we din't know where, when and how the Celtic languages appeared and developped.
 
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2012 at 20:59
Military defeats, interbreeding and assimilation into other tribes like the Romans, Germans and Slavs. Most English people have both Celtic and Saxon blood
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Posts: 1130 		  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2012 at 23:01


Haplogroup R1b can be celtic gene
Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır
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Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2012 at 00:28
Originally posted by Ollios






This map is outdated. It represents an expansion of "Celts" from the Halsttatt - La Tene core, and supposes that the "Celts" came from the East in that core, and expanded with their language and their culture in the West, in the South and in the East.
Present scholars do not believe any longer in this model for the proto historic period. The only part which is real is the historic period expansion (4th century BC and after).
 
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Posts: 1748 		  Quote Toltec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2012 at 02:24
R1b cannot be the Celtic gene for two reasons. Genes which mutated tens of thousands of years ago are not associated with political groupings, linguistic groups or bronze age artistic styles that formed at later dates. All political groupings the Romans define, Gauls, Iberians, Germans, Dacian, Britons ect are of diverse genetics. Secondly the R1b map shows the DNA of people who migrated to Europe at the very latest 8000 years ago. If the Celts existed they would have brought a different DNA to Europe and replaced this even older type, which clearly hasn't happened.

Edited by Toltec - 16-Sep-2012 at 02:35
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Posts: 17084 		  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2012 at 02:46
That was first step of Roman,Divide et Impera:Invent lot of entities from same substrate,create virtual conflicts among them and rule...This one is still in usage:Balkan nations virtual hate history have been invented in 18th century.Creator:Austro Hungarian Empire.
  Most of their invented names are pejoratives,they are proud on them.To be Serb(slave),Bulgar(serf)...etc.
is question of national pride.Smile
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Posts: 1130 		  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2012 at 02:50
Originally posted by Diviacus


This map is outdated. It represents an expansion of "Celts" from the Halsttatt - La Tene core, and supposes that the "Celts" came from the East in that core, and expanded with their language and their culture in the West, in the South and in the East.
Present scholars do not believe any longer in this model for the proto historic period. The only part which is real is the historic period expansion (4th century BC and after).
 


Could you enlighten me about other theories? My knowledge is base on just Hallstatt culture. What are the other overviews about kelts?


Edited by Ollios - 16-Sep-2012 at 02:51
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Posts: 1748 		  Quote Toltec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2012 at 03:47
Kelt was a word used by the ancient Greeks in a very similar way to the Romans use the word barbarian to describe all people who live west of the Danube, from Scandinavia to Spain.

Celt is a word used by the Romans to describe a tribal confederation that lived in western central France.

Celtic is a word used to describe a family of languages still spoken today.

Celtic Art is used to describe La Tene or Halstat style bronze work.

The Celts is a term used to describe a fictional Indo-European tribe invented in the 18th century by Jacobites to justify the Jacobin claim to the throne. This tribe left Pakistan around 1500bc, arrived in Europe around 1000 bc and finally reached Ireland around 200bc, they pretty much exterminated and replaced the pre-celtic population of Europe. 

All 5 uses of the term are unrelated, but naturally people get them confused. 


Edited by Toltec - 16-Sep-2012 at 03:49
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Posts: 17084 		  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2012 at 04:14
How old originals of scripts do we use today!Most of those are copy&paste reproductions,even recreation of "originals" we can not avoid either.Ancient period had lasted till 30BC with fall of Egypt.Hieroglyphs are also
out of precise translation.We have a lot of rewritten history and bunch of History Fictions today.Map of Celts
land is more fantastic than Spielberg movies...LOL
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Posts: 126 		  Quote heyamigos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2012 at 05:50
Haplogroup I was probably the original widespread Y marker in Europe before Hap. R.  Hap. I is still found sporadically amongst all Europeans and probably represented expansion of farmers from Middle East and mixed with Neaderthals.  I wonder what is the most common genetic marker of Basques (the surviving pre Indo European inhabitants)?
 
Celts did make their way to Anatolia too.  There are people in Turkey today who play a bagpipe instrument "tolum?"  Uzbeks and Turkmens have no such instrument.
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Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2012 at 12:32
Originally posted by Ollios

Could you enlighten me about other theories? My knowledge is base on just Hallstatt culture. What are the other overviews about kelts?
See my posts dated Aug 28th and Aug 30th 2012 in another thread : http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5902  (Were the Greek indigenuous?)
which shows some quotes of present scholars about the Halstatt - La Tene model.
Il you like I could reproduce in another thread dedicated to the ethogenesis of the Celts what I have already written in another forum.
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2012 at 19:26
Originally posted by medenaywe

That was first step of Roman,Divide et Impera:Invent lot of entities from same substrate,create virtual conflicts among them and rule...This one is still in usage:Balkan nations virtual hate history have been invented in 18th century.Creator:Austro Hungarian Empire.
  Most of their invented names are pejoratives,they are proud on them.To be Serb(slave),Bulgar(serf)...etc.
is question of national pride.Smile

Medenaywe's hit the nail on the head. Once a tribe is assimilated by Rome, they cease to be Celts and become Romans. Take the Etruscans, Latins and other Italian kingdoms in the early years of the empire
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Posts: 21 		  Quote maks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2012 at 10:42
We still don't know how the Celts perceived themselves. It's doubtful that all Celtic-speakings used to call themselves as Celts or Gauls. The likeliest scenario is that 'Celt' is a generic term that covered a multitude of tribes all the way to Western Europe. Celts never had their own state, which would strengthen their power and made it more resistible to foreign invasions. They share the same fate with that of Thracians. As Herodotus remarked, had the Thracians been unified, they would be the stoutest nation in world. Celtic tribes were constantly engaged in mutual wars, which weakened their power. With the exception of III century B.C invasion, Celts were generally a peaceful people in the sense they did not pursue aggressive policies.  
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Posts: 138 		  Quote Salah ad-Din Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2012 at 22:01
The reason for the Celts' "loss of ground" is very simple.  Their tribal infighting prevented them from uniting against a common foe.  Vercingetorix bears close resemblance to some American Indian leaders, in that by the time he came along, it was too late to change the inevitable course of history.
 
That said, Celtic identity persisted under Rome.  Gaulish was still spoken in Gaul and Galatia at least as late as the 5th Century, and Celtic gods were widely worshipped throughout the Roman Empire.
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Posts: 11 		  Quote Steelcut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2013 at 21:04
From what I understand-Former Gaulish lans were very depopulated when the Franks came in. Further most of the tribes on the west bank of the Rhine were already Germanic. Ubii, Tungri, Sicambri, Batavains
 
I wonder though, were the Northern Celts and the Germanics already the same peoples. I mean they were described as Blond Haried and Blue eyed. Further the Belgea were described as Germanii, yet some had Gaulic Names, some Germanic names.
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Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 05:00
Originally posted by Steelcut

From what I understand-Former Gaulish lans were very depopulated when the Franks came in.
The figures I have for the population in Gaul are:
Year 1 : 7 Millions
400 AD: 12 Millions
800 AD:  9 Millions
From these figures (which are questionable) the Franks arrived in Gaul at a peak of population. The number decreases after the Franks arrival.
Anyway, the Franks are not responsible of the Celts "loss of ground", as the Romans had erased most of the Celtic language and culture.
 
Originally posted by Steelcut

 I wonder though, were the Northern Celts and the Germanics already the same peoples. I mean they were described as Blond Haried and Blue eyed. Further the Belgea were described as Germanii, yet some had Gaulic Names, some Germanic names.
They were people with Celtic language and culture, and others with Germanic language and culture, these languages and cultures being different. What is not easy to know, is which people, among those we qualify as "Germanic", had Celtic language and/or culture. The blond haired and blue eyes don't qualify a peopleSmile.
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