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The Battle of Nagashino, 1575

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    Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 10:31

During this battlke, Takeda knights were slaugtered by foot soldiers armed with arquebus.

I don(t understand how this desaster was possible?

 

Have you gat any information?

 

Thanks

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AngusH View Drop Down
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  Quote AngusH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 20:48

The Takeda calvarly were among the most feared in the nation, and had not yet come up against the kind of volley-firing technique employed by Nobunaga's men. They would have charged in full of confidence, only to see the front-line utterly decimated by the timed volleys of the arquebus ashigaru.

The arquebus had been in Japan for awhile by this time, but the warlords were still experimenting with it's usage. This marked the first time that the volley-firing technique had been used in such a large-scale battle between two of the biggest names in the land.

You also have to remember that most of the casualties in battles like this were not generally suffered in the battle itself, but during the retreat, and this was most probably the case at Nagashino as well. After the Takeda's initial charge was stopped dead, the army would have retreated with Nobunaga's forces in pursuit, and this would have resulted in a great number of the losses for the Takeda.

What I find even more interesting than the battle itself and the great deal of Takeda men slaughtered is that somehow the Takeda limped on for another 7 years... truly amazing considering their losses in this one engagement.

"Just as water will conform to the shape of the vessel that contains it, so will a man follow the good and evil of his companions." - Imagawa Sadayo
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2005 at 05:59
It has been overloked by history that Takeda was totally outnumbered in this battle, and that Nobunaga had pallisades in front of his lines and archers and spearmen in vast numbers with with musketeers.  The Takeda died so massively in part because they were foolish enough to launch a mounted frontal assault on an entrenched enemy.  The guns did help quite alot but their role is somewhat overrated.
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  Quote giani_82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2005 at 06:22

Again had it been for Takeda Shingen the battle may have looked differently as he would never lead such a foolish rush. There is still a debate about samurai not charging in the battle on horses because the horses of that age were too small for the purpose. Yet naginata and nagamaki are supposedly used for cutting off horses legs among others and strangely enough there are weapons with the likes gekken, yagara-mogara and different types of yari's that are apparently anti-cavalry. My point is the prime weapon of a mounted samurai would probably be the bow, may be there were yari armed samurai as well, but facing an enemy that has fortified so well (not to mention it's their chosen position on the battlefield given that positioning was among the most valued strategies along with speed) it was foolish to charge an army that outnumbers you - supplied these circumstances it's doubtful that musket armed soldiers (around 3000 of them) brought much of a difference as it was not a fully developed tactics at this time.

Sadly enough it was Takeda Shingen's indirect fault that his clan was completely wiped out as his clansmen were old Oda's enemies and Shingen himself was among the best daymio during that age who specialized in taking the enemy by surprize with an army of the likes of 12,000 men more or less.

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  Quote moreshige Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2005 at 07:40
By the time the Imjin wars came around (1592-1598) the Japanese arquebus was very effective to say the least.  
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  Quote AngusH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2005 at 20:01

Originally posted by giani_82

"There is still a debate about samurai not charging in the battle on horses because the horses of that age were too small for the purpose. Yet naginata and nagamaki are supposedly used for cutting off horses legs among others and strangely enough there are weapons with the likes gekken, yagara-mogara and different types of yari's that are apparently anti-cavalry. My point is the prime weapon of a mounted samurai would probably be the bow..."

I asked this same question on another Japanese history forum, because I also struggled to see how effective a samurai charge could be due to both the size of the horse and the fact that most of the time the mounted troops were mixed in with their foot-soldier attendants, rather than being placed in mounted-only squads. But that is how they were used, as mobile shock troops. If you look at artwork from the 16th Century you can see mounted samurai charging in to the attack surrounded by other mounted troops and foot soldier attendants.

Most of the fighting by this time was being done by the ashigaru footsoldiers anyway, with the mounted troops probably being used to "mop up" and chase down the fleeing army.

The bow was traditionally the weapon of the samurai, but this had become essentially phased out by the time of Nagashino. The use of mass armies, from around the time of the Onin war forward, instead of individual combat between the two combatants had seen the importance of the bow diminish.

"Just as water will conform to the shape of the vessel that contains it, so will a man follow the good and evil of his companions." - Imagawa Sadayo
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  Quote Jonathan4290 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 00:59

Can anyone provide a reliable, detailed account of the battle or direct me to a site/book that does? I'm beginning to gain interest in Japanese military history.

Like great battles? How about when they're animated for easy viewing?
Visit my site, The Art of Battle: Animated Battle Maps at www.theartofbattle.com.
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2008 at 07:07
Originally posted by AngusH

The Takeda calvarly were among the most feared in the nation, and had not yet come up against the kind of volley-firing technique employed by Nobunaga's men. They would have charged in full of confidence, only to see the front-line utterly decimated by the timed volleys of the arquebus ashigaru.
 
That is an old version of the battle. I mean, this version of the battle is based on popular story from the end of 18th c. or the begining of 19th c. In fact, modern Japanese historiography changes the outlook of the battle completly. 
 
Originally posted by Tobodai

It has been overloked by history that Takeda was totally outnumbered in this battle, and that Nobunaga had pallisades in front of his lines and archers and spearmen in vast numbers with with musketeers.  The Takeda died so massively in part because they were foolish enough to launch a mounted frontal assault on an entrenched enemy.  The guns did help quite alot but their role is somewhat overrated.
 
And that is exactly what modern Japanese historiography says.


Edited by ataman - 20-May-2008 at 08:02
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  Quote Jonathan4290 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2008 at 21:55
I hope this isn't considered spam because it is valuable to this thread: I recently posted an animated battle map of Nagashino on my website which can be viewed here if anyone's interested.
Like great battles? How about when they're animated for easy viewing?
Visit my site, The Art of Battle: Animated Battle Maps at www.theartofbattle.com.
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  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 10:52
I reccomend reading the historical novel Taiko by Eiji Yoshikawa. It's less aride than a pure history book and the battle is quite well described.
Here's a link that holds a short but accurate description of the battle:http://samurai-archives.com/ban.html
I think the final paragraph is significant:
Several things caused the Oda to win. Oda Nobunaga correctly read the ground and determined that he could withstand a cavalry charge. Katsuyori counted on the cavalry charge to break the lower class Oda troops and cause a rout. Because of the natural and man-made obstacles, this did not happen. Katsuyori also assumed that the rain would nullify the effects of the Oda matchlocks, but the Oda soldiers succeeded in keeping their powder dry. Katsuyori decided not to follow the advice of his generals, and it cost him dearly. Two intelligence "lessons learned" are apparent. The first is that Katsuyori's scouts did not do a good job reconnoitering the Oda positions, because they would have had to have seen the palisade. This reconnaissance failure caused the Takeda to charge at fortifications they could not breach. The second lesson is the value of Intelligence Preparation of the Battlefield and knowing your opponent's doctrine. The mighty Takeda cavalry charge had beaten Nobunaga before, and he focused all of his preparation on breaking the momentum of the charge, from choosing the battlefield to emplacing obstacles to developing a sustained rate of fire with single shot matchlocks. Katsuyori focused only on his own tactics, since they had won for him before, and did not properly assess the terrain and enemy forces.
My personal opinion is that the main fault of Takeda Katsuyori was not being flexible enough. Yoshikawa describes him and his army as being well trained but having a low morale. Though outnumbered by the combined Oda and Togugawa forces he relied solely on the quality of his troops while not being able to develop a tactic to put them into a position to properly use their training advantage. Nobunaga was able to defeat a powerful enemy because he denyed him the use of his main strength. The first use of volley fire of the muskets was important, but decisive was the terrain.
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